Make my Africa twin tubeless
 

im so happy with my AT
need to know any idea how to make it tubeless ??? is there any after market solution?
cheers :scooter:

This has been discussed before on HU and it's potentially lethal.

Don't do it.:thumbdown:

Why is it so lethal?
Its possible to do it with the Tubliss inserts, and Chris Scott did it with some 3M 5200 sealant.
He has a writeup on his site about his experience in Morocco with the sealant filled wheels and the pros and cons.

Thanks for linking, Huan. There's also an HU discussion here.

While in the US recently I met a bloke who used to build choppers and the regular way of sealing spoked rims was to vulcanise (rubber weld?) a band around the spoke nipples on a rim designed for tubeless tyres.

I also picked up a pair of 19" Tubliss out there and will be fitting them to my GS in a couple of weeks. Some dirt riders I spoke to had tried Tubliss and weren't completely impressed; occasional air loss when you hit a rock hard, but that's on low-flying CRs and KXs. Not a likely scenario on my GS, but of it happens just pump up.

I think Tubliss works with non-tubeless rims, but for the vulcanising/sealant method you need rims with the seating lip (see this).

Omar, you need to check if your AT runs tubeless rims. I has a Tenere in the late 80s which (annoyingly) had tubeless lipped DID rims, even though it ran tubes, so your AT from the same era may be the same.

Ch

In the discussion (some time ago) it was stated that if this set up has a puncture, then there is a massive and sudden deflation because unlike on a tubeless designed wheel, there is nothing to hold the tyre to the rim in a way which allows a safe stop. I'm talking about road use.

But I wish you well if you want to do this - you go for it. But keep in mind your insurance problems even if you believe this is a safe conversion.

thanks all for your replies ,
in my last trip through Africa i have as many puncture as i can remember ,even i had elephant skin inners ,had slime inside ,it was really pain in the a...
to get your luggage off ,get the tire off ,the inner tube off ,fix it and put every thing on
grrrrrrrrrrrr
its my only problem with AT
usually when i ride its a mix of high ways ,bad roads and off roads ,i don't deflate tires as i don't do that really dunes crossing ,
and still need a clear way to make my AT tubeless ,sorry if I'm being silly
ride safe always

And what is the difference in the above scenario with tubed tyres?
None.

1. The tube bursts.
2. The tyre collapses immediately and possibly comes off the rim
3. You (hopefully) bring the bike to a controlled stop.

I realise these are not your words Caminardo, but I'm afraid what is quoted is nonsense.

The safety benefits of tubeless is that they don't lose air quickly in a typical puncture because there is no tyre-supporting inner tube suddenly losing all pressure at once. That's the whole point.
With a tubeless tyre the air can only escape through the tyre's puncture hole, but typically that is blocked by the nail plugged in the tyre carcass and so deflation happens slowly around the nail (or may no happen at all). A tube on the other hand goes in seconds, like a popped balloon - and that can be lethal if going very fast or in mid-bend (though in all my years my experience has always been the 1-2-3 scenario, above).

And in an untypical puncture, like riding over a set of spikes or a sharp rock edge - that may indeed cause sudden deflation, whatever the tyre.

If converting from tubes, tubeless rims must be used (or Tubliss), but this point has been made.

On my old desert car I initially ran tubes as the 4x4 lore suggested at the time, and had endless punctures (because among other things, heat is created from tyre-tube friction). I switched to tubeless - far fewer punctures.

And as for ease of puncture repair? No contest.

Some of the many good reasons to ride on tubeless tyres.

Ch

PS: to keep things OT, the question of domestic insurance when modifying a bike for overland travel might be (has been?) discussed in another thread.

Yes I agree about tubeless tyres when punctured. I too would like tubeless tyres. But Omar is talking about an AT running tubeless. And that's quite a different matter. I'm not sure if it's been made sufficiently clear what risks there are here.

But I recommend to you Chris, that you read the thread "DIY Tubeless Rims" of 21Aug 2008 where you and others discuss this issue in detail. I believe you began the thread, and where I learned much about the issue. It's the discussion I referred to above.

I particularly suggest you all read Grant's comments there, in relation to the "nonsense" you mention. His comment struck me as reasonable and not "nonsense", more so than other earlier talk of "bodging" it up, which was not reasonable.

As I understand it, Tubeliss is for Motocross only. Is that right?

Rim Design.
 

Yes, as Caminando says the important point is that rims which are not designed to take tubeless tyres can't grip a delfated tyre with no tube present. I was warned of exactly this with the old cast wheels on 1970's Moto Guzzis. They'd not hold a valve properly either. I am forced to use tubes in tubeless tyres, legal and technically OK, but with the blowout risk. There's simply no way round it. Yikes, and sorry for criticising Chris Scott who knows a hell of a lot more than I do. Lindsay.

just practice patching your innner tube, and leave it all original. Or (if that is possible??) swap the spokes/rims on the bike to tubeless versions.
(although I can never recommend BMW parts on a Honda AT ;-))

else: don't risk it, the stock rims are simply not made for tubeless.

It's really worth checking Tubliss site and see how the whole system works, which is pretty thoughtful.

I don't have an opinion, this goes beyond me knowledge, but the explanation of Tubliss sounds pretty logical. Actually, the motto is "understanding is believing": "the seal is formed against the inside of the tire itself (not the rim)" and the inner bladder that seals the tire -which has a pressure of 100psi- is independent form the tire, so you can deflate the tire to lower pressures, while keeping the 100psi on the sealing part. Worth a good look.

Esteban

:thumbup1:

It seems to be a really useful product. For OffRoad Use only, it says on the tin.

Absolutely agree: probably the biggest point here is insurance cover and/or safety, being both tied to each other, I'm aware of that.

If I may think aloud, risking to get in deep "sheet", I see it like this:

1) Obtaining permits for a product in such a core issue as modifying tires from "tube to tubeless" does not come overnight, it requires lots of testing, certifications and therefore a huge investment by the maker. It0s a business, so that decision will solely be based on sales increase they may forecast if they have such "certification".

2) When people in HUBB -and I assume elsewhere- refer to tube into tubeless conversion the main concern is offroad, even though there are advantages on tarmac.

3) If all that were right, then it could be inferred that Tubliss conversion might not be less safe for on-road use (it could actually be the other way around, but I don't affirm it, it could be much unsafer as well), but it'd be only that companies like Tubliss may not be willing to invest in that "certification" for on road use just for a few more sales and so prefer the disclaimer and stay on the cheap/safe side.

So, I'd say: don't use it on tarmac, 1st due to insurance concerns, 2nd for safety, since it's labeled "for off road use" and your insurance won't cover a penny (100% agreement with CAMINANDO) and that especially applies to Europe/North America. BUT, if you have enough of punctures in Africa and plan off road there... then you decide if you want to give it a try.

:thumbup1:I agree with all of your post except the quote above.

HU is not an offroad site, though offroading is part of it. Many assume that it is about offroad here, and I'd say that's not the case. Neither is it a RTW site. HU IMO, is about travelling on a bike, long distance or otherwise, and doesn't restrict itself to offroad. Most long distance travel is onroad, therefore the need to satisfy insurers about tyre conversions. Some of the stuff discussed on the DIY thread I mentioned above is.....controversial, let's say.

:oops2: Quick apologies, by no means I wanted to restrict the scope of HUBB to off road, I see it exactly as you say, a very open place (there's 4WD/cars and bicycle sections, which I find really good!). I meant that the tubeless conversion concerm mainly regards off-road use (not HUBB). Only due to my non-native lack of proficiency.

Yes, as many other threads, controversial. Thus, good to hear differing opinions in a respectful way.

-E

PS: Never follow football, but Spain in quarters now is a different thing... and other Spanish friends did not arrive yet!

Nothing at all to apologise for, Est. :thumbup1:

Hi. I am from Singapore & just come across this site & the topic discussed.

I hv convert mine to tubeless & travelled 18,200KM with it from Singapore via China reasonably rough terrains to Jeddah (Saudi) in 2010 without a single glitch pertaining to it (electrical problem to the machine, yes, but not the tyres or engine), despite couple of accidents & countless fall and skids due to fatigue.

* Take note the angled inlet valve at the front tyre, indicating tubeless tyre mounting

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._2980333_n.jpg

More of the pix of the trip can be found here; (facebook)

Welcome to the HUBB Zam and thanks for showing that tubeless can work on an AT.

Can't get on/see your FB page so would be good to know how you actually did it.
Simply sealing the standard rims (did they have the 'safety' lip) or some other means?

C

Thanks for the welcom Chris.

It was done by the local bike repair workshop & they keeping it trade-secret hush-hush. They claimed using ‘industrial’ silicon. (I notice trace of black silicon under the layers of duct tape over it).

Using tubeless type tyre is a MUST because of the tyre bead I suppose. However I DO NOT notice any mods being done to the rims lips, (I was there, inspecting the rims during the mounting).

I was worried and kind-of regret at 1st as it may jeopardize my long haul trip, especially at the unknown terrains of Central Asia, however everything seems to be fine. No wobble even at my old AT top-speed of 160kph.

Since then, a couple of my buddies had theirs converted as well, although many still skeptical.

I had my rear AT using CB400 rim (Varadero 1000 rim is similar). The sprocket & the brake assembly needs to follow suit as well.
http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...7_853170_n.jpg

Thanks for the details Zam.

I wonder if it may have been the vulcanising method as the chopper guys use, as that is not a DIY sealant job as I did.

I also read somewhere that TL tyres have a coating inside to eliminate porosity through the carcass. And like you say the bead is perhaps more finely made or different profile? - as this is the seal.

So you used [CB400] 'safety rims' with a lip. While safety rims certainly stop a tyre - tubed or tubeless - coming off a rim when pressure is lost - I suspect on a TL tyre they also serve to increase the seal surface area with the tyre bead.

Well like all untried mods for overlanding it's a gamble, especially on a long trip like yours. And you do wonder if some TL tyres and tube-rims sealed to run TL may not be a good combination (as seemed the case on the front of my XT660Z, the back was fine over 4000 miles). Anyway, you've proved it worked for you.

Did you have many punctures on the road and did you just plug them? I take it 18k to Saudi was more than one set of tyres.

I may try and track down a vulcanised rim band for my next bike if fitting the Tubliss is a pain.
I'm using Heidi K60s and they're stiffer than a Mich Desert.

It was ‘unfortunate’ that I do not experience any punctures during the trip, otherwise it wld be a useful input.

Although I do carry spares along, but due to 1/3 of the journey were dirt/gravel & such kind of terrains, thus ‘no chance’ for the spares ;-)

<btw I was using Pirelli Scorpion >

Hi Zam ,what a trip you made brother !!
can you please help my very narrow understanding how i can do that to my Africa twin ??
bare in your mind i live in Egypt ,not in a European capital where lots of good places that they can work on your bike ,hahahaha
it will help may many Africa twin owners ,if you can get photos ,or even a small clip about how we can do that
cheers ,
and best wishes from Egypt :scooter:

Guzzi Wheels.
 

Does anyone know where I could learn if I can, infact, safely run a 70's Guzzi with their cast alloy wheels without tubes? There are three issues, rim not designed to hold the tyre on alone (is that different from the AT's), edge around the tyre valve unable to hold valve, and alloy being porous to air. Ciao, Lindsay.

Hi Omar, I will try to reply U later 2nite abt midnight (now is abt 8pm local time; time for the kids :D ... I hope U dont mind my sub-std English, ya? :oops2: .... but I am not sure how much of me can be of any help, bcos it was done by the workshop (& they kept it as trade secret) ... anyhow, I will try to reply to the best I can later .... sharing is caring bier

btw, these were the countries in the path of my tubeless :biggrin:

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._8258030_n.jpg
Flag not shown : Singapore

I learned to my surprise that not all TL valves are the same diametre, so perhaps that's your problem?

See the 'Tubeless Valves' paragraph on this page.

But if the rims are porous and not safety types, I would have thought you're much better off with something that is made for TL, maybe off a later Italian bike? With cast wheels and 1970s wheel dims I imagine that will be a bit of a lottery.


PS. Getting back to the safety rim/lip question. Are they needed and why.
I just re-read part of my tubeless report of 3-4 years ago (link above) and saw this:

I also noticed a tell-tale spurt on the front tyre where the Slime fluid inside the tyre squirted out the sides as presumably I hit washed-out creek edges on the Col Belkassim track [Morocco] the day before. The rim was not damaged so this suggested that even on moderate impacts (or possibly too low tyre pressures) the lack of the ‘safety lip’ was indeed allowing the tyre to collapse into the well or somehow lose its grip on the rim and so [briefly] lose pressure; handily this was high lit by the leaking Slime stains.

So there is a reason to use for safety rims when running TL which would not be relevant on tubed; maintaining the TL tyre's seal during edge/kerb impacts where a tubed tyre might just push in and get pushed back by tube pressure. The 'sudden' deflation/tyre comes off the rim scenario following a puncture (as discussed earlier in the thread) is not so relevant as TL tyres don't do that compared to tubed 'blowouts'.
The OE front rim of my XTZ660 was unlipped and gave me problems (on the dirt only), the back was for some reason lipped, and did not.
So for the 'edge-strike/brief air leak' reason, lipped 'safety' rims are definitely a good idea for running TL, even if it makes tyre mounting/removal more difficult.

Hello Omar (and All). Ok this is my reply to your question, but I am not sure if its of any help :(

When I 1st bought the AT, the 1st thing I want is to make it into tubeless (TL). The only way I thought it possible was via sport-rims only. Unfortunately the biggest sport-rim available is only 19” (for the front tyre); thus I only convert the rear. Afterall 90% of road nails only ‘luvs’ the rears :eek3:. The cost? Abt USD$1000 which includes used CB400 Vtec-II rim, sprocket set & chain, used brake assembly & new tyres. It also req’d a custom measured bush, to space the rims into correct off-set (as what I was told by the workshop). The rear tyre size is now 160/60R17.

Couple of mth thereafter I come across another workshop who could mods spoke rims for TL tyre usage at the cost of only USD$150 per rim (exclude TL tyre costs). How they do it I might not know bcos as usual, its their trade secret. Besides, I hv to leave the bike at the workshop for couple of days for the process. But I could see trace of black rubberized material (sealant?) neatly wrap underneath few layers of duct tape. However I did not notice any trace of the rim lips being mods to suit the TL. At early stage, I checked the tyre pressure on daily basis, but there wasn’t any air leak since, despite the distance and the AT speed limits I hv had with it. If only I met this workshop earlier I wld hv mods both rims this way instead.

Nevertheless, as mentioned earlier there are more skeptic by the ‘tradition bogeyman’ worries than believers; it’s individual rights anyway :-)

That’s it bier

My experience of having had both tubeless and tubed tyres of the same make fitted to the tubeless rims of my R100GS is that the tubeless tyres are a much tighter fit. I also understand that many rims designed for tubeless tyre fitment have grooves formed into the rim to grip the tyre making them even harder to remove without specialist equipment.

The reason why I changed to tubed tyres was because of the roadside repairability. If you have a small (nail) type of puncture and the tyre does not come off the bead then there is no problem - simply plug it and re-inflate but if the tyre suffers serious damage (due to metal debris on the road) and has to be removed from the rim this is very difficult to do without apprpriate equipment. Although we carried tubes as a back up so once repaired re-inflation is no problem but due to the tight fit again very difficult to get it seated correctly with roadside equipment. Trying to seat and re-inflate a tubeless tyre at the roadside with a bicycle pump would be challenging.

The slow deflation advantage of tubeless tyres is probably not so important to an overland traveller although I can see it would be important when travelling at high speed on a modern sportsbike.

Off road tyres are always tubed type although most trail tyres are available in tubed and tubeless fitments to suit BMW and other spoked wheel that are designed for tubeless tyres.

The rims of the Africa Twin may not be airtight, but they do have a savety-lip.

I noe that I hv download this pix from the net b4 prior doing my tubeless, but seems am not able to locate the site now :-(

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/h...-sport-rim.jpg

BARTubeless conversion
 

Fyi - just had my CB-X’s Rally Raid wheels sealed by BARTubeless in Italy. €80-odd euros. Testing them out for Rally Raid on my CB500X.

Similar to what I did to my Tenere but obviously more professional. Some sort of polymer, not 3M marine mastic.
We found it takes some depth out of the well which makes the final levering harder with some tyres like the GT201 rear I’m trying out. Front K60 went on OK, but as you can see it’s not a TL ‘safety’ rim. Had probs with the Tenere’s similar 21” when I DIY’d, but BARTubeless seemed to approve it providing pressure stays above 26psi. Plus I think wider - less of an issue.

That brand embossing would make fitting an emergency tube a bit problematic. I suppose it could be taped over.

Only available in Italy right now but Rally Raid may become a UK outlet. More on the website. Off to try them out in Morocco.

Update: BARTs worked fine and lost no air in 8000km. Ran them no lower than 1.8 on the front, 1.9 on the back. A bit on the hard side at times but didn't want to take chances.

https://adventuremotorcyclinghandboo...11/cbxl311.jpg

https://adventuremotorcyclinghandboo...11/cbxl312.jpg

https://saharaoverland.files.wordpre...2/harek-03.jpg

I contacted the guys from Tubliss (TUbliss Motorcycle Dirt Bike Durable Tires | Nuetech) regarding Africa Twin. I am currently building an 18" rear and thought it would be a good opportunity to go tubeliss. They only offered 2.15J in the 18" rear. Not sufficient for an Africa Twin.


http://tubliss.com/tubliss/tubliss-faq

I dont see the point in it. When riding tubeless bikes i allways had problems loosing air. First i liked tubeless because you can fix a tire without having to take the wheel out but this only lasts for a few hundered kilometers serios offroad riding. At the end i allways endet up with a tube inside a tubles tire...

Depends how you classify serious off-roading I suppose, but for rallies and the like many turn to mousse for low pressure apps - also a form of 'tubeless' whlle they last.

PS: G'day Esperance - had some nice times there ;-)

As this thread has been resurrected, this is what I intend to use, maybe with some 5200 sealant on the spoke nipples as belt and braces!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikKeVNBAmQQ

There's a reasonable chance this lot will be making tubeless wheels for the AT at some point:

Alpina UK | Alpina wheels and conversion kits

Perhaps in severe off road you may have issues? Also depends on the wheels you've got. Some are tough, some not. I was able to seriously POUND my Vstrom's cast wheels in Baja and Mexico on several occasions, I did put a couple dents in them but NEVER lost air or had any problems.

I hit square edged holes and BAD embedded rocks at 70 mph fully loaded several times. Very hard hits where I thought I had broken the frame! :eek3: No damage to wheel most times. (see below)

But friends with DL650 Vstrom's had different experiences, dented wheel more easily than I did. Maybe DL1000 wheels are tougher? Mine sure where! (even though the Vstrom was never designed to ever go Off Road)

Based on that experience I'd think going tubeless with cast wheels would be worth while. I don't mind a few dents in my wheels ... but I hate flats and having to break down a tire.

One problem I see is putting a PLUG into a Knobby type tire. Could present problems? I never ran knobbies on my Vstrom so never had to do it. How does that go? Anyone?

I tried to seal the wheels up on my Spoke wheel'd DR650. I did something wrong as it would not hold air. I imagine a pro could do it for me no problem.
But next trip, I'm seriously thinking of a Bib Mousse insert. Just have to get schooled on how to get it OFF and ON. It used to take 3 guys and very specialized equipment to do a Bib Mousse .... I hear now it's much easier.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-.../i-hMGmwPJ.jpg
Dented V-Strom DID wheel. A Wheel guy wanted $100 to fix, I had it done in Mexico for $30. They used HEAT, a Jig of sorts and a BIG hammer. Good as new.

Agree- patching a tube sucks big time, especially if its 40C and there's no shade.

As for when you ding a rim- you can still carry a spare tube for that occasion (or when you slash a tyre so bad you can't plug it)

Plugs on a knobbie is the same as on a normal tyre- the grooves are just bit bigger LOL. Never had any issues. With some really big-arse cuts, we sometimes have to put a patch on the inside. It means you still have to pull the tyre of the rim, but it's still faster and easier than a tube.

No it was because the mushroom? you can buy to fix a flat tubeles tire did just hold the air for a few days serios riding then the air came out the same way so we had to put a tube in.

Thread Resurrection Alert!

As we know, since this thread started, spoke tubeless wheels have become increasingly common on big advs, often on the more advenduresomely marketed option like F850Gs vs F750GS, etc.
There's a partial list on the HUBB here.
To keep up with that and other options I've updated my Tubeless page: