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Riding a European winter - now!
Hi all,
I have ridden from Australia on a F650GS (the central Asia - Iran route) and I am in Berlin at the moment. I am looking for some advice from locals or those who have ridden here in winter. I am planning to go from Berlin to Amsterdam, Brussels, Paris and finish my trip in London before Christmas. I am concerned about the road surfaces given the weather up to now, and what is predicted. I´m trying to decide whether to continue the ride or put the bike on a train or van and take the easy way to the UK. What do you think about city or highway riding now and over the next few weeks? Issues I have in mind: - Road surface!! - Ice on main roads, black ice etc. - will they be cleared sufficient for 2 wheels - Chains vs studs - Tire choice - currently Tourance - Dangers of other drivers Thoughts please?? Thanks Rehan |
If you are planning to use motorways only then you'll have no problem, roads up there are very well kept, especially on the french side. Unless you are caught in a snow storm you'll do fine, the worst part will be the cold temperatures.
Try to ride the most you can around midday, so you can take advantage of the warmest part of the day |
Do yourself a favor an take the train or ship the bike otherwise. It's not worth the risk and the effort.
I'm from northern Germany and when I moved to the south (where I live now) I commuted the 700km once or twice a month by bike. All year long. I'm really, really grateful I don't have to do this any more. Even if you're fine riding along in temperatures around the freezing point take into account the windchill factor and how fast you cool out. If you cool out, you're error prone. Although one can usually filter through the lanes if traffic comes to a hold, I wouldn't try this on ice-slippery roads. You're in serious trouble if the Autobahn you're on gets closed down and you are forced to stay for the night (that happened this week, again). Studs (called spikes in Germany) are not allowed in Germany and most other central european counties, I never saw a bike with chains. Other then the one driving the rear wheel, that is. Depending on your schedule it might even be worth considering to take cheap plane rides to get to the major cities you want to see and come back to Berlin later and reclaim the bike. Regards, Hans |
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I ride with tourances but I am very careful to check the weather conditions. If you stick to main roads (avoiding mountains) and the weather is clear and dry you can ride BUT black ice is a problem. If if freezes overnight then best not ride the next morning unless you are prepared with spikes or chains (which as Mandarax say are forbidden in most of mainland Europe!). There are some 'winter' style tyres that are much better than Tourances for snow, but on Ice, you're pretty much up shit creek! The key is to keep a very close eye on the forecasts and road conditions. You're local news station is your best friend. You can also check FIA clubs in your country for road conditions and risk or black ice. Btw where are you staying in Berlin, I'm going to be there this weekend, fancy a beer? |
European FIA clubs for road conditions
Current german road conditions from ADAC (only in German):
Aktuelle Verkehrslage BTW without a word of german I managed to navigate to the page with webcams... pretty handy. Click here for the link. Then enter the Auto route number and tick all the boxes... the map should display webcam spots, click on the symbol in the map to see the latest images. You can get the full list of FIA clubs in europe here. |
my advice...
hire a van from SIXT as one way rent and do the rest of your journey via motorway. will cost you some 280,-Euros plus the diesel on a day in the middle of the week, weekends are more expensive. Or... well try to find a HGV fright company and ask if you are welcome to entertain the driver while your bike is resting on the back and you are in the cap. Some of them don't mind and are happy to squeeze your bike in for a small tip. There would be a lot of this companies big and small in Berlin did the journey on country roads from Berlin to Cologne and back again for a few times in summer and autumn... well that's about 600km and is a ride for about 12 to 14 hours if you know the way... up and down over high ground, which would be full of ice and snow right now. well yeah on the motorways it's may less time consuming, realistic talking about 7 to 10 hours (about 600km) to ride depending on the traffic from Berlin to Cologne, but watching the news... there is ice, and long HGV congestions jams in Germany, with blockages for hours, wouldn't like to be there at all... even if the authorities are using a lot of salt to cope with it... your bike would not like it anyway. And if that's not enough... well always remember the German motorways are a battle ground of fast and irrespective drivers compensating there ego and small willy in there high ranking status symbolising cars... anyway... if you may get near Duesseldorf/Wuppertal along the way (not far away from the A3 and A46), I can offer you for free: a warm bed, a few days rest, workshop, dry place for your bike and of course beerchug on the country side... let me know and send me a PM... you can find the place here = N51.14.887 E7.01.048 about 300km before Amsterdam and about 560km from Berlin, sort of right on you way... :scooter: by the way where I live it's about 140m above sea level here in Wuppertal and there is 10 to 20cm snow all around, with 5cm thick ice patches on the roads, only +2 at lunch time... but after daylight is gone... well it's gona be ice and sliding cars on the roads again. Been down to the post office in the morning on my bike, just riding like it has been raining.. but the salt... well I had to wash my bike right after I came home. may see you... you are welcome to stay and make further plans from here if you want... spooky |
Yep, the salt they use to de-ice the roads is really bad for bikes. I once wasted a chain in almost no time, that especially seems to hate salt! But bikes in general do not have the same level of corrosion prevention as cars do, so all visible parts are in danger of at least losing their shine. Would be wise to wash the bike thoroughly after each day.. probably won´t happen during a trip, though!
Once rode down from north Germany to Spain in mid-November, and then came back early February. Both times it was do-able, no snow or ice on low-lying areas (in the daytime at least)... but very, very cold, foggy, and miserable. Looking at the news, I wouldn´t even try that right now, it does look pretty wintry also in Central Europe (though not like in Helsinki, we´ve got around half a meter of the white stuff here!!) Winter over there doesnt usually last very long, but for the moment, I´d stay somewhere warm, and follow the forecasts. If you absolutely must ride, then try to do that only in the daytime, even though it is a bit short. Darkness & ice on a bike is a very scary combination! |
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and that's an understatement! beer Quote:
and another understatement! With ice, coming off in inevitable on a bike (unless you have a side car attached :-) beer ... it's getting close the Beer O'clock beerbeerbeer |
Thanks for the replies guys and the offers of accomodation. Such hospitality takes me back to those "barbaric" countries through which i've travelled.
Regarding tire chains for bikes, see GS Tire chains from Wunderlich - ADVrider Spooky regarding van hire - I cant find anything around 280 euros - is this figure for a one way, one day rental? It's a serious contender at such a price. Most of the talk on winter riding seems to be about dedicated off road, minus 10 or below. Prep for that seems to be easily done - knobblies plus studs /spikes, battery heaters, oil viscosity etc. But what I am hearing from you guys it seems the current Euro conditions are pretty much the most unsafe you can get because of the changing conditions and potential for ice on asphalt or black ice, which is basically impossible to prepare for. OTOH Eirinn is confident about the road surface. Throw in weight of luggage, cold weather mental effects, Christmas deadline... Tough decision.:confused1: |
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the place where they found the "Neanderthals" is just about 4km away from where I live... some guys admit that some of them are still alive, among us around next town... :D Quote:
well at least that what I had to pay using a SIXT MB-sprinter-van from Berlin to Duesseldorf to be able to move all my gear plus the bike as a one-way-rent, which was handy for me at the time, the price is actual less but regarding there 400km limit including that lesser price and than add for every additional km makes up a total price around 280,-Euro may can go up to 350,-Euros by now. I used the SIXT settlement in the centre of Berlin/Prenzlauer berg (don't know the exact address right now but it's not far away from the Alexanderplatz a place where they keep vans and lorries, a bit hidden in a backyard in a smaller domestic side road) the main thing is that you can return the van any where in the country where they have a office, push your bike out and keep on going riding from there. Quote:
depending what ever time limit you did set your self and don't have to rush around, well take your time, but keep in mind, Berlin is not exact a cheap place to stay for a longer time. spooky |
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right... usually the real winter time in Europe with all that snow and ice we can see right now normally starting a bit later around mid January to February, for many of the past years we haven't even seen any snow at all around this time of the year, along the area between Berlin/Amsterdam/London east-west-east axial line... in January/2007 I even did a nightly ride from Oxford to Duesseldorf on a 12 hours journey over the motorway without being effected by snow and ice, yes it was bliming cold :freezing: with almost no traffic on the roads, no chilling wind nor rain but I had to stop at any given rest place to stop and warm my hands on the exhaust can to cope... but I did it, 600km at night... one week later and there wouldn't be a chance to do the same journey again at all regarding heavy snow and bad weather. I just managed to find this gap to do it.. never mind it was low ground all the way below 80m above sea level, the Netherlands are flat and can be prone to high wind on the open landscape. my conclusion... European weather can be quite unpredictable especial regional differences in higher and lower location along a distance of 500km, weather can change rapidly in temperature and a mix of rain, hail, snow, sun, wind and so on what ever you like or not. You may find a similar gap watching the weather news very carefully, but take in to account that you have to pass through high ground about 250m above sea level at some stages up's and down's in the landscape before getting further west. Distance wise its about 900km from Berlin to Amsterdam and the weather can change in distances of 10km steps very rapidly, and daylight is from 8:30 to 16:30 only right now the shortest day is just about to approach on the 21.Dec, calculating -10min less light per week before that date and +10min more light per week after that date, just to give you an idea what you are looking at before xmas and the new years time. well hope that helps you a bit... to get a picture of the current situation to be able to judge and making a good decision that suites you. |
Hey,
I'am from the netherlands and the weather forecast report that its going to freeze next week again. The salt we use to prevent for slippery roads are on ration already !!!!!! Better to catch a train or somethings else as long as they have more then 2 wheels on it. If you need some help in the Netherlands let me know. Richard |
Next month there is a rally in Bavaria known as the Elefant. Solo riders from all over Europe (about 3000 in total, of which 2/3 are solo) will head into a place between Regensberg and Passau. The weather will do what the weather does and the last 20 miles will be on snow. To all the doom mongers suggesting the train and van I say you're a bunch of part time riders and wimps to boot :rofl:
What you need is: Knobblies, preferably M&S (Studs are off road only, chains are a menace one off the worst ice). The kit to keep warm. (a rain suit three sizes too big is useful, then just layers). The sense to stop and wait if it gets properly bad. Salt is no problem if you use ACF/WD40 spray and hose off the crud ASAP. Battery heaters, fancy oil etc. are for Sweden (-35) not Germany unless you plan to camp in the mountains. Pick hotels with covered car parks or in city centres and the worst overnight temps should be well withing what an F650 will cope with. Now, that said, I am supposing you've met rain/mud etc. on your previous travels. With ice you are going to have twitchy moments. If you find the idea that you might fall off terrifying and would rather keep the Dyno-Electra-Superwide-Jet Glide in an air conditioned plastic bad until June, that works for people too. Some of those long dark motorway slogs in January are the rides from hell.The trick is to stop when it ceases to be fun. Pics/ideas etc. here https://sites.google.com/site/threew...laces/clothing Andy |
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but if you can prepare for a single event... that's ok and you do it for the pure fun of it, I heard about this "oh man I'm cooler than all others... I'm doing the Elefant meting the xy's time by now... and I'm the one that comes from the fastest distance from Yorkshire.. ahh yeah lock at me all you wimpy Bavarians" I heard that a lot... solo ? on a bike with side cars and a lot of show effect for what I have seen so far... yaeh I know it's one of the hardcore biker event....:offtopic: now I don't want to kick around, or pull your statement down... but remember, rehanw is may not prepared and kited out for such a "Elefant event" like I'm a stupid hero, remember he came all the way across Asia with a minimum on kit attached to his bike, now caught up in snow and ice at the wrong time of the year... he may more used to riding deep sand than enjoying ice patches and he may rather want to arrive in safety at his xmas appointment in London in the end, rather than getting wiped of the road in the last few hundreds miles just to proof how cool he may would be... for what ? stuff it ! did you ever considered that ? |
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here at the HU I thought we try to help others, specially the ones that are on the road from far away... don't we ? |
So get a plane, bus, boat, truck, plane, is helpful then? I;d better get a RTW plane ticket then and call it 'overlanding':innocent:
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The primary objective of most rides is to survive it.
If it were me , I would look out to buy a cheap van/pickup, insure it and drive it to the UK and dump/sell it. Maybe even an estate car and lie the bike on its side. ( remove liquids and battery first) Doubt very much you can get one way hire across country borders even in the EEC. I used to ride to and fro Norfolk to Cornwall each weekend when I was in the forces. All through the winter of '63 435 miles each way on a Meriden Triumph 500. I did have a fairing but it was still cold. I wouldn't do it now. I just ride for pleasure these days. Even last September on my way to Poland I had two days when it rained all day. Miserable ride. The rest of the two weeks were fine. http://www.our-site.me.uk/bike/larry/P1000244.JPG |
Hi,
In germany there is a new low scince thsi winter saying you have to have tires with the M+S Symbol for Mud and Snow lie the TKC80 if there is ice or snow on the road. The highways are very bouring so i would prefere to take the natiola rouds. With them you also donw have to pay toll in france, swiss and spain. Travel save, Tobi |
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M&S tyres make a massive difference (Heidenaus are my preference, TCKs are very very stiff in the sidewalls in my experience). Snow is very much like sand so normal knobblies work and off road riders pick it up quickly. Ice is the reason for M&S tyres and make it just like riding in the wet once your head has worked out about staying smooth and not going into panic mode. I'd agree with the law in Germany, it should be Europe wide but I'd debate the German law being enforcable on a foreign vehicle unless there is an obvious reason it was causing a problem (in other words if you are riding well on normal knobblies the police won't bother you, crash and they will). Clothing isn't a big issue for a simple cross country trip like this. One piece thermal, lots of jumpers and an unlined oversuit and you'll be fine. Total cost, €300 for the tyres (which can be run in the summer until worn down, they'll last about half the distance of summer compound) and €100 for the extra clothing (which can be chucked in a charity collection/recycle bin in April). You are where you need to be, the bike is with you, you aren't getting deported for fly tipping and you'll find sand and rain come very easy once you've mastered the winter stuff. If you are lucky you'll also see some beautiful countryside in a season you'd otherwise miss and other sorts of slippy stuff will come easier. The downside is the risk of losing an indicator or worse which is why when it ceases to be fun you find somewhere to stay. What is useful is knowing the topography. Crossing the Pennines, Eifel, Alps etc. the roads rise and it gets colder. Having a warm drink, getting ready then having an hour of this cold stuff mid morning works. Arriving at the point where it starts to rise just as it gets dark and pushing on because you want the nights beer in a particular town is the recipe for a rotten trip or worse. This means it's slower and more tireing than a summer blast. I'm with Ta-Rider on the National Roads with one small addition. When the weather closes in they keep the city to city motorways open longest. The motorways also have service stations with motels. If you really do get caught in some bad stuff, the emergency lane is the place to ride at 10 MPH rather than on the blind bends of the minor roads. If there is a sudden fall of snow it's debateable which is best. Following a snow plough at 40 mph isn't as much fun as having the minor road to yourself, but getting caught on a quickly shrinking line of rideable slush with trucks passing you is really bad, as it 10 mph on the hard shoulder. Certainly if you end up out with darkness falling the Autobahn is your friend. If you don't try of course you'll never know. Andy |
Hi,
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LG, |
yes, the new law for winter tyres = M+S is a minimum requirement for cars, I'm not to sure if it will apply for bikes too.... often this new laws do not apply to bikes regarding it's "considerable lesser" appearance on the road, just like the emission laws don't apply for bikes that strict, the main target about this laws are cars. Some idiot on TV even mention to introduce colour coded tyres as they are available now... like orange tyres for summer and black for winter use to allow the police for easy identifications... doh
Knobblies, would be OK on bikes Quote:
by now we all know, and meanwhile found out that it may can be a tricky decision for him to make a good and bearable judgement about the weather, road conditions and distance he want to be able to cover over the next two weeks before xmas in unknown territory.. "Rehan asked for some hints"... so... as far I understand... Rehan want or may even need to go from Berlin to Amsterdam, Brussel, Paris and London.... to discover what Europe is like... how about providing him some more targeting advice and help to do this in this unexpected winter chaos... rather than confusing the means of how to travel ? now Rehan: I can provide you a stepping stone for free commendation for a few days to be able for to sit out bad weather, having a rest, space to work on your bike if needed and what else, I live basicaly right on that axial line you would come by, I can provide essential turn off and location GPS waypoints for most of this journey (over country roads and motorways, crossroads, ports and so on, which I did collect and ridden my self for countless times over the last 10 years) that may help you to make effective use of the short daytime and not wasting to much time to find a right way, got a good idea of the geographic situation too. and as I see there is "atgxt660 / Richard" from the Netherlands is happy to help you out too... sound grate to me... question: is there any one else who like to voluntary on this matter ? spooky |
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Have you tried contacting HU Communities (link in menu bar on left)? The people there like to meet/help other travellers. cheers Chris |
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By dump I meant take it to a scrapyard to junk it. or sell it on for road use. However a foreign registered old van LHD may not be very much sought after in the UK. The parts are mostly good. same as giving clothing to charity for recycling. |
Black ice will be the biggest problem ,as it's not easily visible .The rest you can compensate for by riding cautiously .I used to ride all year round in the UK before I moved to Canada ,it wasn't always fun ,but I did it and the only part that scared me was riding when it was snowing heavily ,the effect of the snowflakes in the headlight was disorienting .These days ,with electric suits, the cold isn't too bad .The key factor is to stay warm ,then you'll be alert .Plus take up the offers of hospitalty !Buy a van ? Not on your nelly !
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Be a Lert
(n) A small furry woodland creature that's senses are always very intensely attuned to its surroundings.-urban dictionary
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Ride on! Dorin |
The Electric jacket as Torture
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24 hours later, place the unfortunate in a room with his wife. While talking of Reindeer and scenes of fantastic whiteness he will remove his shirt to reveal eight red marks spaced at the exact intervals of the wires in the heated jacked across his back :oops2:. These also match the spacing of the finger nails on some imagined lady of negotiable virtue from the street next to the bar you were in. :helpsmilie:. Cruel and Unusual punishement will follow:eek3: On a serious note, take care with heated kit. It really does turn hard work into fun and according keep you awake and safer. Stand on the plug or have the wiring go phut though and you are back to what you are wearing. You need to have enough on to make it safely without the gadgets. Andy |
Hi guys,
Thanks for all the replies. If nothing else, it confirms that there are many issues in continuing on. A few people have talked about dealing with cold. I bought some cold weather gear which proved to be OK for riding in -10 and German snowstorm a few weeks ago. Fingers and toes are still a problem though. The only solution was to stop regularly at petrol stations and warm up under the WC hot water or hand driers. A bottle of hot water on the chest under the jacket helped a lot too. It proved an electric vest would be a wise investment. It is a big thing for me to ride into London as the symbolic RTW end point and that is weighing on me a lot. It's been the goal and the drive. On the other side is a long cold motorway ride with constant fear of wipe out (nods to Andy and Spooky). I started writing this reply saying I was going to ship the bike home from Berlin but in doing so realised I really don't want to do that. So - it looks like there is going to be enough of a gap in the weather between 18 Dec to 23 Dec so I think i'm going to make an attempt. The plan is as follows: 17 Dec - fit TKC 80s / K60s 18 Dec - Hannover 19 Dec - Wuppertal (thanks Spooky) 20 Dec - Ghent (where are you atgxt660?) 21 Dec - Calais 22 Dec - London ?c? Can western Europe be worse than the KKH or an Iranian jail? I'll let you know in about a week... |
Just my thrupence worth, tkc are hard in the very cold a brilliant tyre but in the snow and on ice they are very hard and the block pattern is no good at all on ice that is my experience and i have used them a lot, go for the k60 - as for riding in snow its not to me like sand it has far less grip, sand is heavy and in its own way has friction snow doesnt on snow you speed up as you try to ride and its got as much grip as wet mud. I like many have ridden all year round in all weather and often in arctic areas I am sure you can manage but be very aware of the tiredness and hypothermia effects of the cold, I am sure you know the stuff and I dont want to tell you how to suck eggs - you will lose fine control of your reactions quickly then lose feeling in your hands feet etc, First stop after two hours then every hour, take your time and get lots of soup and hot stuff in your body every stop not just a coffee. I am sure you will be fine. Take care but dont push your limits on this last leg the party in London will only be good if your not injured getting there I am sure that everyone would be happy to wait a few extra days if you need it. Best of luck. Tchus jake. Just a footnote would it not cut off a lot of miles to go from Rotterdam to Harwich by ferry
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Yeah I know it's not the classic way of invading the UK... more like sneaking in to it's back door... Well I agree Calais/Dover is demanding if you want to see the white cliffs of Dover on a sunny morning ones in your live time... |
Go for it mate :thumbup1: . If you are stopping when you feel cold you've got your head round it. If you can "aquire" some used 5/10 litre plastic bottles you can cut and use to extend your hand guards or make foot guards. The shelter from the wind on hands and feet can help.
Another vote here for the K60's and the longer ferry. Four hours for a fry up (and maybe a hot shower if you can get a cabin or talk your way into the truckers bit) is a useful break in my experience. You come off the boat ready for another few hours ride where as 40 minutes on the Dover Ferry (or worse 35 holding the bike vertical on the train) is just another drinks break. Andy |
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All sorts of interesting comments, listen to what Jake (adventure 950) says, and have a look at Hans Petter Strifelds website.
For My tuppence worth, full on knobblies are too agressive for icy roads, there is rarely anything worthwhile to bite into. Something with lots of small knobbles would be much more effective, look at car snow tyres and admire the sipes..... Never having used K60's, they look ok for the job tho. Heated kit is great whilst it works, but good protective clothing is safer, and on that subject, plenty of lighting on the back of the bike. When riding on the icy stuff, the colder it is, the safer, get below -20, and ice becomes white & dry and relatively grippy. the dangerous stuff is the black stuff between -10 and 0c. Visors for me are the biggest problem, the wet salty stuff thrown up from the road in the uk winter is a nightmare to see through, but down to -18c the shoei pinlock system works well. Truoble is below -20, the ice builds up on the inside, and it's visor up time, unless you have a fancy heated visor. personally I love winter riding, but can understand that it's not for everyone. Prepare well, and take great care. |
Lots of great comments here, I am taking notes.
Funnily enough the hardest part so far has been finding tires - noone in Berlin or surrounds seems to have any TKCs or K60s in stock so I won't be leaving on 18 Dec as planned. I might get some for Tuesday but deliveries are uncertain - ironically because of the weather. I'll keep you informed! |
If you try looking up the following ; uk pneus online Tyre MOTO HEIDENAU K60 SNOW - 90/90 -21 54 T RF: sale of tyres MOTO HEIDENAU on Pneus Online have the K60 in stock maybe they can help - worth a try./ maybe they can ship them. Also mytyres Reifen online @ ReifenDirekt.de: Winterreifen, Sommerreifen, Pkw-Reifen und Reifenhandel have them in stock and they certainly have German centres as I have bought from them in Germany before. mottoradreifenDirekt.de rings a bell. Like you say its getting them to you but they may have a centre nearby that has them in stock.
good luck. cheers. |
How's things?
Last post was a week ago. There's been more than a lot of weather since.................. |
Start spreading the news, I'm leavin' to(morrow)...
Hi guys,
I got my tires but given the weather, might not have needed them. I plan to leave Berlin tomorrow and it looks like I have a pretty warm, if not particularly dry, run across Europe from Berlin to London. I am planning to go via Paris and take the longer traditional route from Calais to Dover. Rehan |
Nice one. Looks like the worst you'll see is the odd patch of frozen slush this side of the channel. Still, plan for the worst and anything less seems easy. Have a good trip.
Andy |
Now it's warmer weather and the snow has more or less melted are you going back to Berlin to fetch your bike or have you already organised the freight back to Oz?
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Rehan,
I'm not be able to give you a bed, bud if you bring your own sleeping bag you can crash in the place i'm staying. It's not my own but you are welcome. Cheers Richard (atgxt660) p.s. I sent you a sms, soo you have my mobile . |
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Bonjour Paris
Hi everyone,
Well it seems that it was a good idea to delay until the new year. I left Berlin on 10 Jan when the side roads were quite bad (snow melt + below zero = ice) but the main roads were clear. A few slippery moments but the K60s are a nice tire. They seem to vibrate less than the TKC80 and have better mud and snow grip as well. I don't think there is really anything other than studs for ice and as you can't transition easily onto asphalt, they aren't much use unless you know you'll be off-asphalt for most of your time. I was kindly hosted by spooky in Wuppertal and another friend in Ghent. Those roads are spaghetti-esque as warned. The weather was, as I was told, "typically Belgian" and I stopped in Arras. The D1014 (?) road heading into Paris alongside the A1 is a great road for bikers, confirmed by the number that were out the next day. The sun came out and the asphalt dried, making for a perfect run into the city. So here I am. Blue skies, nice temperature, my own bike and Paris - what could be better? :thumbup1: |
Nice one, glad you enjoyed the ride. :clap:
Andy |
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What now? Given this nice weather you could almost afford a quick trip to Switzerland...?? Cold beer waiting for you if you come to visit. Cheers, Pascal |
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