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Veg Oil??
This may sound a daft question, but I am a bit confused about the basics of this subject, I have a 1995 Landcruiser 4.2 VX diesel, can I just go down to my local supermarket, buy some veg oil (at about 50p/litre) & bung it in with the diesel??
Or is there more to it than that?? Surely its cant be that simple!! Hopefully somebody will know & possibly advise me of pitfalls if this is the case Thanks |
Google 'veg oil as fuel' and variations of that title there is plenty of info, I have put up to 25% in a '94 DI Transit, and it runs smoother, am ate of mine puts nearly 100% veg oil in a Sierra and over the last 3 years had no problems, I believe there have been threads on here previously, infact I am sure I have posted on it!!
ps, where are you getting veg oil at 50p per litre??? |
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The other thing to remember is even though the oil is only 50p/lt you STILL have to pay duty on it otherwise it's still illegal... this is an interesting read RUN A DIESEL CAR ON VEGETABLE OIL |
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No filter problem with straight (new) veg oil(svo). DO NOT use Waste veg oil(wvo) unless treated. Water only appeared in the filter after using too much kerosene (white heating oil), I believe that you No longer pay duty if you use up to 2500litres per year!! new laws!! details also available on Google. |
Yes it's true
DieselVeg Home - Diesel to Vegetable Oil engine conversions details about using 2500 litres before duty to be paid!!
Not widely broadcast, but now we know !! :welcome::welcome: |
i used to run a j reg escort van on a mixture of 3/4 tank veg oil to 1/4 disel. it ran fine just smells a bit. once in a while i used to run a full tank of disel. Look into it though as i believe more modern disel engines are not so tollerant. You get some strange looks at tescos but i just told em i ran a snack van !
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You're right about the smell.... just be carefull, you'll have all the local kids hanging around looking for 2 quids chips... ;)
A mate was running 60 / 40 veg oil - Diesel in a '94 Disco It was a bit down on power but no other probs |
be carefull
Be carefull, not from a technical point of view but running a car on vegie oil is a serious criminal offence, at least it is in the Netherlands. Basically you are dodging fuel taxes and that is a serious crime. You might just as well use agricultural fuel which is half the price of normal fuel while it is the same stuff. What are the chances you get cought in a big traffic check, especially with the smell of chips hanging around the car!
Cheers, Noel exploreafrica.web-log.nl |
It isn't illegal in the UK but that's probably cos they cannot police it.
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I run my 1991 Toyota 80 (4.2TD) on 50% veg oil (£0.64 per litre), I can even go to 100% in the summer (just). I simply put it in the tank!
And as someone said, you don't have to pay duty if you use less than 2500L per year (2500L is a lot!). This law changed last summer I think, but it's worded very badly so know one knows exactly what it means, not even the customs and excise people! So yes, go get some veg oil and chuck it in! And bring on that nice summer BBQ smell! Cheers, Matt Savage.... drinking a cheap box of white wine, trouble is I don't know how much I've had! With a bottle it's easy.... |
Many vegetable oils will freeze or at least produce visible crystals in a refrigerator. If mixing with conventional diesel fuel you run an increased chance of a filter wax-up as temperatures drop.
It's really only safe crystal-wise at ambient temps above ~8-10 C. And I promise you that mfgs of the modern common-rail electronically controlled super high pressure engines don't recommend it. But it's perfectly safe in older pure mechanical diesels, with the caveats about careful cleaning of waste oil and temperature. I believe the 1HZ engine in your 95 LC is pure mechanical. I'd try it first at warmer temperatures than January (right now outside my house it's -20 C.) Charlie |
Have a look around on tinternet and you'll find loads of conflicting advice.
Issues are.. Can your pick up pump cope with the viscosity without dammage Ditto injector pump ( expensive dammage ) It goes waxy at warmer temperature than derv. If you leave it in the tank for many weeks it can start to go claggy in the bottom (and you don't want a claggy bottom) clogging filters. No issues with duty if you use less than 2500 litres a year. 100% rapseed is the best (54p / litre at Tesco) You should have no issues running 25% veg in most engines. A test would be to try upping the proportions until your car becomes a bit grumpy to start. Have a check around specifically to your vehicle. Some are very tolerent ( 80s passats & old mercs) some aren't (Most HDIs) My van ( shogan clone engine ) will happily run 30% veg in winter and 75% in summer. It runs smoother, smells nicer, no appreciatable drop in power. It's cheap, but it ain't "Green" unless you are using recycled veg. Lots of land has been turned over to oil production at the expense of food staples. Sorry for jabbering |
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Not jabbering...all very valid points, the only thing is our Tesco does not sell at 54p ltr, more like 80+p :( My 2.5 Transit likes the stuff and runs well on it, but kerosene in too high a proportion causes bad vibration especially on 'tick-over' |
I've been using 100% Veg oil today put approx 24 litres today and have more to go in using it in a 300 Tdi Discovery and it runs great i paid 74p per litre (Tesco's) and here in the UK it's perfectly legal.
My fuel stops involve going to supermarket buying cooking oil and pouring it straight into the tank in the carpark. 3/4's of the price of diesel. |
My Local Tesco has a brand which is still under 60p / litre. It does sell out very often. I always seem to be able to catch it when they've got some. My next step would be to start using reclaimed 00.00 / litre.
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5th gear had a unit on the show tonight it cost about 2 grand but you could keep it in the corner of youre garage/shed and it filtered all the crap out of used cooking oil.
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I've used veg oil (pure rapeseed) for the past couple of years in a Discovery 300tdi and have found that it runs perfectly fine at around 25% from spring to autumn - Wouldn't do it without a pre-heater in colder weather.
I did start to increase up to around 50% but found that the injectors seemed to foul and it didn't start as well or have as much power after a while. It's been run on pure diesel for the last four months now, and I've put a bottle of Wynns injector cleaner in the fuel and it is totally back to normal. I'll start again on the veg oil once it warms up again though, but just keep it to 25%. |
We are currently running a Golf III on a ratio of 50% Diesel and 50% Palm oil - the car is an old junker that does factory duties with shift managers, so just an experiment to see how far we can increase the % and what happens!!! Interestingly everyone who drives it claims more power, and as far as I can determine it could well have a higher cetane rating. The palm oil is not even refined - just pressed and filtered. Thing smells like a local street food spot though! Unfortunately there is currently no price advantage as the palm oil is about one Ghana Pesewa more expensive, but who knows in the future. We will give it a few days and pull the filter of and cut it open. A lot of Ghanaians cannot believe that a car can run on food!!!!
Gil |
I am running my Citroen xantia on veg oil/diesel mix and last night I put at least 75% veg oil in. this is the most I have tried. it was a cold night, minus 2-4 and it was slow to start this morning and rough running until it warmed up then it has been fine. I have put two litres of unleaded in tonight to keep it thin....I will see what its like in the morning. the most I have put in before now has been 60% in the summer.
Graeme:wave: |
The safest way to run veg oil is with a two tank system.
Lots of companies make kits but it's something that can easily be rigged up. For some ideas, have a look at DieselVeg Home - Diesel to Vegetable Oil engine conversions I wouldn't put unleaded in my tank but do blend my supply of veg oil with up to 20% white spirit ( turps substitute ) I did some vicocity tests with various blends and 5:1 rapeseed/white spirit emulated derv pretty well at low temperatures. You try this at your own risk by the way. |
Hello big red tractor, when you say the safest way to run veg oil is a two tank system, what do you mean by safe? are you talking about failure of injector pumps because of the viscosity of veg oil being greater than derv? or is there some other danger?
I have been running on a veg/diesel blend for miles with so far no problems. As for putting unleaded in the tank it is a common thing in very cold climates to put petrol in with diesel to keep the stuff from gelling, so it does no harm as far as I am aware. I will of course post here as soon as something goes wrong. As you say it is at our own risk. hopefully 'who dares wins'! Graeme |
Graysworld,
Yes, you're right. Ideally, a two tank system with additional filters and perhaps a pre-heater for the veg would be the way to go. That way you can start and get warm on derv then switch over to veg. Switch back again a few minutes before you stop. This allows more vehicles to burn veg. Yes, some motors just love it and run great on almost whatever you feed them. Others can be a bit more fussy. My van is fine, but I wouldn't be happy running our HDI cars or our newer vans, without some conversion work. Regards petrol as a solvent for your veg; it's more expensive than ghost. Regards |
I put in two litres of unleaded and that has stopped the bad running at start up..........I will put less veg oil in during this cold snap from now on. good to experiment though.
Graeme |
Hi, if you take the right precautions you can sure drive on veggie oil, straight or waste vegetable oil.
I had installed a complete conversion of Elsbett, which can be done by yourself too (a DIY package is available). I drive in summer and winter on 100%, in Europe as well in other continents In the Netherlands it is NOT prohibited, as Noel said, it's a crime when you don't pay taxes for it, and you're able to do that in about a week after you used it. A cool thing is, you can also combine driving on veggie oil with overlanding! :-) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2316/...f7e985.jpg?v=0 This man was wondering what a tourist does with so much sunflower oil! Although he knew I could not speak turkish, he couldn't resist trying to find out why I needed so much of this oil ;-) http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2044/...c6c7af.jpg?v=0 Fill her up in the Sahara, oil bought in Marrakech, Morocco This man was wondering what a tourist does with so much sunflower oil! Although he knew I could not speak turkish, he couldn't resist trying to find out why I needed so much of this oil ;-) |
what about this . . . .
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Hi Phil. This looks like it is just an additive to add to your waste veggie oil. Although I've not read the whole web site, way too much writing!!
You still have to collect it from the chip shop (or wherever), you still have to filter it, and I guess heat it up to separate the water out. Then you add their fancy additive and you're away. I guess the additive thins the veg oil out, to make it more like the consistency of diesel? So, if you have (or want to make) a WVO processor, then maybe this additive will allow the content to work in a wider variety of vehicles. I'm sure someone one here knows what to add to make veggie oil thinner? Kerosene, paraffin, petrol?? Cheers, Matt |
I'm sure someone one here knows what to add to make veggie oil thinner?
No need to add anything, just pour out out on a tile or lino floor; you can get it down to a few mil. I thought we had this conversation? Ch |
ummm, I've just tried Chris's thinning method, and..... I've made a right mess!
You can run a car on veggie oil straight in the tank, but not all cars. Some are more delicate than others. An hour on the internet will find a list of cars that are fine and cars that are not. A lot of the problems are caused by the thickness (waxing up) of the veg oil when it's cold. Mixed with diesel it's fine. But I assume this wonder additive makes the veggie oil the same consistency (and viscosity) of diesel. So then it should work with any diesel car. Right, back to my cup of coffee. In fact a Nescafe 'collection' Espresso recommended by Andy at Allisport. |
access to oil - avoiding Iraq !
Hi Matt / Chris (et al)
Yeas this 'wonder liquid' is surely just a concoction of ???? which keeps the oil thin, as you say perhaps kerosene would work just as good. I'm still over here in the States (hot n sunny guys, - hot n sunny !!) and there is a netwrok of oil (or grease as they call it here) suppliers, guys that collect way more than they can use and they will 'process' the stuff and just sell it on at the current going rate here of $1.50 a gallon. For my circumstances - constantly moving - it's not viable attempting on board processing but by jumping on net and finding supplies at all the major towns it is feasible to buy n use en-route. The 'systems' here tend to be of design which heats not only the extra fuel (grease) tank but also the feed lines right up to the engine. tend to take the heat from radiator and they always advise starting and running on diesel until temperature hot enough and then (IMPORTANT) before stopping engine at end of day purge through the grease and ensure diesel is back in engine system. I fitted a kit in beginning of January on a 2003 Golf tdi for a friend here, he's now done over 30k miles and has had no major issues. My IVECO already has a spare fuel tank built in which gives me my storage. I cannot justify cost of a 'heating system' for the grease lines. So my plan is to run grease as a 75/25 mix ratio with diesel. I'll keep pure diesel in my main tank and will purge through at end of day or if weather is getting too cold. Think I should be ok. opinions anyone ????????? Phil. By The Way - Matt, that little compressor I got from you is fan-tas-tic ! THE best auxillary item on board ! |
Morning all. One idea I had (but like all my other good ideas, I've never done anything about it!!) was to fit a Kenlowe (or any other) engine pre-heater.
The Kenlowe one is like a kettle electric element in a neat little housing with a pump. This is T'd into the heater hoses of the engine (very easy/simple). This is all 240v. You simply plug it into the mains, set it on a timer to come on 30mins before you need the car in the morning, and then you have a nice warm engine! Perfect for heating up the veg oil in the engine/injectors. What I then thought would be good, was to incorporate this with a heated fuel filter (again, heating up the veggie oil) and, if you're feeling really frisky, you could have some sort of water pipes going around the bottom of the fuel tank, all plumbed up to the engine water system. So in the morning when the pre-heater was on, it would heat the block, the fuel filter and the main tank. So you could run on 100% veggie. This Kenlowe kit is about £300. Some fuel filters have a water jacket around them already. Or, it would be very easy to simply make a coil of copper pipe around the filter, then have this plumbed into the water system on the car. Right, I'm off to have my breakfast now... Bye Oh, thanks Phil. Yes, they are mighty things! |
1%
If 1% of diesel vehicles in the world used veg oil or bio diesel, there would be no room to grow ANY food.
John |
it's hydrogen time...
That the widespread production of automotive fuel from crops would be an inefficient use of land is I think fairly obvious. It's hard to believe they're even thinking about it (although Brazil has managed for years).
I guess you simply plant what makes money at the time - which is why they grow opium instead of sandwiches in Afghanistan. After all, it's only govt tax (in the UK - about 70-80%?) that makes diesel far more expensive than veg oil in some countries and which is why we're having this debate. Although in France as you know, most supermarket veg oil is about the same than the latest diesel hike. Deep fried food has clearly not caught on there yet! Without govt tax, industrially-produced diesel is much cheaper than veg oil - as you'd expect - and running on used veg oil is another matter of course but there cant be that much of that around, can there? Anyway once Shell own all the farms and fields, there's always what's left of seafood + and birds and insects, if you can catch them ;-) Ch |
For sure the negative side of bio diesel is there - particularly palm oil (which I was using in the 'test mule' golf). But let's face it most of the oil we are talking about here is sunflower/brassica crop based and not originating where there are food shortages. And as we know on a global basis we are pretty crap at balancing areas of agricultural overproduction with areas where people are starving! So what I am trying to say is yes there are major issues with bio fuels, but I wouldn't lose sleep from burning EU cooking oil! My palm oil (originating from a large multinational that own a palm plantation that used to be natural tropical forestry, and in a country where malnutrition is a BIG issue) is a different story...
But, there are some positive sides to bio diesel - example being planting up of degraded tropical land with Jatropha which is extremely hardy, yields quite good oil and stabilises land which otherwise would be extremely marginal, further depleted and allow further desertification. Gil |
Interested to read that people are mixing kerosene & heating oil with thier fuel. I understand the argument about 2500ls of veggie oil before you should technically pay tax, but hasn't kerosene got a colour marker and DNA type marker in it, that you can't get out of your fuel system?
I belive the Ph value of exhaust emissions is used to determine what's in the tank if dipping the tank doesn't show anything. What's the legal side of using 'marked' fuel, or has the law gone to pot since this 2500l rule, after all if you've legally got 2500l of duty free fuel in the UK does that mean you can any old stuff through and not get taxed? RTS |
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