The Ultimate Land Rover vs Toyota Thread
 

Rather than polluting other threads, vent your spleen here. Do you prefer a Toyota, does your heart tell you Land Rover?

Me - well I have an old, 200tdi Land Rover Defender 110, and have a firmly held belief that it's not all about reliability, well not to all people.

Of course, I will come back to this thread when crying my eyes out in the desert in Iran because my big end has gone ......I promise!

So please do, tell us what you think .....

Yesss! Let's have a fight...
 

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a1...g?t=1229946572

Pictures tell a 1000 words!

Towed and broken toyotas
 

I remember when following this Land Rover around the world, I bookmarked this blog entry, as it did make me smile. It includes broken down toyotas as well as a landie towing not 1, but two toyotas up a slippery hill :)

October 21st 2007

PS BTW What the hell is that???????????????????????????

Busted bacons
 

That my friend Mr. Ollie is a Bacon that has been well and truly busted!!!
I have just finished my most recent copy (I get it sent airmail) of the excellent magazine 'BaconBusters' (i.e. legendary Aus Feral Pig shooting magazine) and I have to say in the various sections including
"Hogs, Dogs and Utes" as well as "Bacon Babes" there is not a single (let me repeat), nil absolutely Zero Solihull rubbish. A Trophy Grunter like that one would break any LR product?c?

Ultimate Arguement!!!
 

Ollie

you have really started one here

Gil
very inflammatory comments

IMHO the LR looks great and steals the hearts and minds of most Brits, however, once you have a bit of experience and some common sense its got to be a Tojo product!
The 70 series Troopies have probably got to be the ultimate Overland vehicle, but for us Brits and most Europeans the 80 is the most afordable and attainable, especially in reasonable numbers.
Personally I would not bother with another Solihull product, there is simply no quality in the most of the parts or in the work taken to put them together, and to make matters worse Solihull are well known for leaving the owners to sort out well known faults - much like Nissan have been with the D22 Navara engine problems, perhaps thats something to do with their more recent owners.

Some of the Patrols look pretty good but what are the electics like? And how good are the 3litre engines?

Head or Heart
 

Well I've commented on this subject in previous threads and my reasons are well known so I'm not going to rave on more about it except to say, one more time.......
If only I had found HU before we rushed out and bought our LR we could have saved ourselves lots of cash but I am happy to say that at least we didn't continue throwing more hard-earned money away trying to keep the vehicle on the road and outfitting it with even more 'extra's'.
We realised that even though we got a thrill out of waving to other LR owners along the way, flicking through the LR mags and all the other little things which attracted us to LR that the cold hard facts were just too big to ignore.
We wanted to enjoy our trip in every way, we didn't want to have to keep a list of workshops in each country we were planning to visit, nor did we want to eat dust or have our bones shaken to the core. We wanted to jump into our vehicle, turn the key and drive off without worries. Oh yes, I know we would have to service our LC, replace brakes, etc; etc; and if we were unlucky then we would deal with that if it happened but certainly even though the car was a major part of the trip, we wanted it in it's rightful place - a workhorse to get us from A to B in as much comfort as possible with only a small amount of the budget used in repairs and maintainence.
We want to meet the people, not the mechanics, we want to see the countryside not their workshops.
All I can say is good luck, go with whatever makes you happy, in the end it is your decision, your trip, your memories, your money.

Pain not pleasure
 

I have just realised what a masochistic exercise this was for me!

Anyone want to buy a nice 200tdi? Will swap for 80 series :)

Head or Heart??
 

Oh poor Ollie! I certainly don't want to upset you or your plans as you're so close to departure!!
Look, at the end of the day you have to do what is right for you - not anyone else. Everyone has different idea's on how they want to do their trip-of-a-lifetime but for us it came down to something quite simple - money!
Although we don't fall into the 'budget' category we are still concerned about how much money we spend. The longer we can make it stretch the longer we can stay on the road.
We also want to remember the experience for the right reasons which, for us, isn't having our heads stuck under a bonnet or worrying about 'will it start, will we make the next town?
As long as you have a safe trip that's all the really matters. The road is long and winding so enjoy the experience, you may never get another chance. There will be many people who can only dream of what your are about to do.

I'm only spleen venting, and Ollie was wanting (I think!) to raise some debate... And I am bored and stuck in a office with a ranting MD tearing accounts apart when I know that most of our managers are doing sod all and getting stuck into Star (Ghana Beer) at our club or travelling off home for the holidays.

On the subject of Landy's I just got a call recently from my mate that I sold my Defender to - he made a few trips in it but then got a job in Afghanistan so I ended up with the Defender back gathering dust in our workshop. He came back recently so we fired it up (battery was shot after standing so long) and he ran around Ghana for a few weeks. I do have to point out that it completely died on him 15mins after he arrived at the airport (electrical gremlins but minor). He has sold it to some dodgy guy I sort of also know - it's going to end up in Liberia..... I feel quite sad, as it has had a HELL of a life and looks like it will continue to see some strange sights.

I may have mentioned before, when I told my girlfriend that I was flogging the Defender and buying a new HZJ78 she actually shed tears and said she might buy it!!! So yes they do have a certain charm, absolutely 100% no doubt. I learnt so much from buying it and slowly rebuilding it. When I was a baby my mum's car was actually a very cool series I Landy. And I learnt to drive in a series II, so I can claim a fair bit of green oval DNA in my petrolhead makeup and I would so much like to see Landrover come up trumps with a rugged Defender replacement that could claw back lost ground instead of producing RR Sport footballer wagons and just sticking updated engines in the Defender.

Merry Christmas all, don't matter if you use a bike, push bike, a pajero or a whatever. So long as you enjoy it,
Gil

Bring it on
 

Oh do bring it on - it's was only I realised that it was going to be one way traffic and that would be painful reading :)

Until we have started the big trip I just could not be convert to the big Toys, but maybe after 20,000 miles of pain I may change my mind.
Interesting to read though, and could be good for future overlanders to read me thinks .......

Head or Heart?
 

Wow I‘m not sure I want to enter this debate (LR’s can almost provoke a rabid response in the G Wagen camp, mostly based on hear say rather than 1st hand knowledge / facts though)

But anyway, here’s my 2 penith. I driven lots of LR’s over many 10’s of thousands of miles, with a significant amount of time being spent off road. Fortunately I didn’t own them which meant they were used and abused to within an inch of their lives.

Lot’s of them broke in some way. Half shafts, gearboxes, steering etc but I don’t remember ever being completely stranded. It was always possible to bodge something together and get home, maybe with front wheel drive only. However the above pretty much describes the way a lot of LR’s seem to lead their lives. Just watch anyone using one at a trial or play day. Lots of revving, wheels flapping in the air. So it’s worth remembering you could end up buying one of those second hand. Oh and it may well have mountains of modifications, which I would personally avoid like the plague. But that just MHO.

Having said that one of the other “company” vehicles were Toyota HiLux’s. Early 90’s non turbo 2.4’s. It almost turned in to a challenge to see how much abuse these could take. I still don’t know the answer! Character? No. Pride in ownership? Grudging admiration maybe.

Anyway why make it a 2 way contest? I toyed with a Nissan Patrol (too big for the UK but worth considering) LC80 would be my choice but again too big for a daily driver in the UK. So we went the G Wagen route. People are afraid of the perceived complexity / cost. In reality the 3.0 straight six diesel 463 series (1991-95ish) is pretty simple, no electronics apart from ABS, compact and spares are cheap AND available. Remember Africa is full of MB’s vans or saloons which share loads of parts. My ignition barrel played up in Morocco. No big deal to by pass it but a local mechanic sifted through his second hand parts and came up with the bits. 30 quid later a few mint teas and it was fixed. Tom Shephard knows a thing or two I guess.

In the end I’m a great believer in treating things gently and using those most sensitive of condition monitoring devices to spot problems before they turn in to disasters. Ears, finger tips, eyes and butt cheeks :thumbup1:

So I guess Obelix would drive a Toyota!
and Asterix?

Incredible to think there's a whole magazine dedicated to killing boars.
I guess there must be a lot to say about driving out, shooting, loading up, driving back, lighting the barbecue, drinking beer and telling stories about driving out etc...

Way OT. More on BaconBusting
 

You have basically summarised the whole ethos of 'BaconBusters' Luke! Okay you have to throw in a rifle test or two! I do have to point out that I subscribed only for entertainment value for my Father who reads it and sends it on... Google it - amazing really. You can even buy armoured vests for the pig dogs to reduce the injuries they get from attacking these monsters! It is about as politically incorrect as you can get.

OT Bacon Stuff, Sorry
 

... Tom Shephard knows a thing or two I guess....

He does now.

Mercedes-Benz Type 463 G-Class - Luxury SUV Travel & Adventure Road Test - Truck Trend

New book out btw, unless it's already been mentioned here:
Quiet for a Tuesday: Solo in the Algerian Sahara
Looks great.

Nothing is infallible - who'd expect it to be? The best machine is the one that inspires you to go overlanding, assuming that's what's being discussed here.

Ch

Oliie,

1991 ex military defender:

Months in Africa now: 16
Things that have gone wrong in Africa:
A. Broken rear shocks (non LR related)
B. Extra fuel tank switch leaked (fixed with dental floss type stuff (non LR related))
C. Oil leak on front hub seal
D. Punctured tyre (non LR related).
E. Water tank kinda fell off (non LR related).
F. Battery system ignition wire caught on fire (badly fitted - no rubber grommet on on hole through metal, battery cut off switch saved the day(non LR related))
G: Starter motor failed in Spain on the way down on one trip.

With good preparation a landy can be fine. Can be ;-)

Every 2-3 months find a good landy mechanic and get them to look at everything for an hour. Prevention saves future headaches....

Tom Sheppard
 

Thanks for the link Chris, I hadn‘t seen that article.(shame I couldn’t spell his name):stupid:

OK I’m not an anorak but they call it a 463. His is actually a 461 which is a basic model with selectable 4WD rather than the full time system found in the 463, nice basic drive train……..good, however it has electronically controlled engine management (Sprinter engine)……………bad, especially given the fact that IMHO MB/Chrysler lost the plot around 1998 in the quality stakes. Hence my preference for 1991-95.

Still has diff locks front and rear but after messing about in soft sand with my 463 I don’t see them as a huge advantage. Rocks, cross axle, mud situations yes great though, allows waaay more finesse/control when compared with open axle set ups.

I’ll have to track down the book.:thumbup1:

Here In New Zealand a Coalmine brought 10 of the latest toyota 70 series landcrusiers 4.5 litre v8 diesels
within ONe year two engines replaced!!, other stories around here of valve trouble, landrovers at same place no engines broken, just electrics
So long as you are familiar with whatever you use its ok, I drove Africa, australia, russia, could always get the landrover home

land rover versus cruiser
 

We know landy and cruiser owners and have come to the conclusion that landy garages abroad are cheaper than toyota, parts seem to be cheaper as well from what we've heard. Availability of parts is the main issue and again we've come to the conclusion that it's equally split between the two vehicles for sourcing parts overseas- depending on which country you're in.
So it comes down to the vehicle itself- I guess neither vehicle is the wrong one, it's all down to whether you've bought a pig or not. Some come well dressed and some not. 'Wasting money on extra's' , depends on the extras- if you want to live in it you will want to buy some bits and as far as I'm aware neither vehicle comes with roof tent or water tank as standard. So once again the vehicles are placed equally. It depends on what type of traveller you are- are you going to buy this equipment but spend most nights in hotels or are you going to bushcamp most of the time? Live- in gets our landy vote- lots of space and less windows for good security!
I don't see the point of 'car bashing', everyone has their personal choice. Our landy has been fantastic- maybe it's a mix of a good buy and VERY regular maintenance. What-ever you buy- enjoy it, look after it and you will be rewarded with the best experience of your life. Overlanding is not about the vehicle you drive- it's the experience of doing it that matters.:cool4:

In the end a cars a car
 

I love land rovers, they look cool and make you feel your on an adventure every time you get in one. Back when I lived in the Uk I had one, but it cost me a fortune to fix all the time. Still loved it thou even thou I knew in my heart of hearts Japanese was better.
Lets face it there is nothing wrong with the design of a landrover, its just the idiots can't put them together properly.

I'm in Australia now and there's one thing that speaks volumes other here. Go to the outback and drive where you are thousands of miles from anywhere, fuel and water is hard to get, and if your car breaks down you could be stuck for weeks. If not worse, which happens regularly here. (You're not greenlaneing in the cotswolds here.)

Now why you are there look around you how many land rovers do you see? Not many maybe 1% if that. Sure in the cities you see a good few but not out there. Why? Because Australians have learned by experience here. Land rovers just don't work here. Remember Land rover was king here once just like it was in Africa. They have lost that crown now. People will just not trust them, and will not risk there life's in one, out where it matters.

So when I do the RTW trip it will be a Land cruiser, if I was a mechanic thou with time money and the willingness to fix breakdowns on route. Then maybe I would consider a L/R. But there's no real need too. Its about the journey so I would rather spend time doing that.

Sure the toyo will breakdown I'm not saying it wont, but it will be less frequent and easy to fix than the L/R.

I see the whole Landrover Vs Toyota debate as like when Jap bikes 1st came to the UK. At 1st they where Jap crap and who would want them when you can have a Bonnie or a Norton. But other time, the quality, design and ease of use, reliability, not to mention the price won people other. Now apart from a reborn Triumph the British bike industry is dead (sad but true). This is a lesson for landrover I think !

Is This the End for Land Rover?
 

Oh how right you are phtest. It's what I have been thinking all along. With the motor industry so deep in the poo right now even the good cars are going to struggle to survive.

I would say that in the next 5-10 years the only LR's around will be the ones that enthusiast play with, certainly not any serious travellers, companies, explorers or anyone else who wants a reliable machine.

Of course there will always be the people who won't give in but that's what makes life interesting I suppose, it's their choice. I've made mine and can relax and be content in the fact that my head won this battle, not my heart, there are plenty of other battles my heart will win.

Who's not buying them?
 

You should let the Italian armed forces know: they buy lots of landrovers, even the Carabenieri.
Now if you want a pretty good armoured vehicle, at about 3.5 tonnes, then it's the Toy-ota LC that has cornered that market.

perhaps you ought to read about toyota in deepest africa, read this page from about post 4 downwards, nothing is better than the other
:oops2:
:
Which Expediton vehicles and why? - Page 2 - Land Rover UK Forums

what about this for manufacturers confidence insoem countries I am told this applies, cannot be sure?:
The Land Rover is warranty covered for off road use, and the Toyota aint.

what about this: YouTube - Defender rescue Toyota Land Cruiser
:thumbup1:
or read this thread page about halfway down onwards!!!
Which Expediton vehicles and why? - Page 2 - Land Rover UK Forums
In reality, each to his favourite, each have strength, for me NO RUST is a big one

can a landcruiser do this?
 

YouTube - Land Rover Defender Towing a 12 Tonne Truck.

Yes, they can
 

I'm surprised the side shafts didn't snap :tt2:

see this and plenty more available in Australia!!! so both as bad as each other!!!:biggrin:
Leaking door seals new Hilux & handbrake issues with Landcruiser anyone else exp @ ExplorOz

Nothing is Perfect!
 

I think you might be missing the point here. There isn't a perfect car, never has and never will be. It's that there is no getting away from the facts that LR are poorly built, end of story.
It's just how much do you want to persist with them. If that is your thing to be fiddling with a car while on a world trip then good on you but like I say, I want a work-horse because, for me, I have better sites to see than under a bonnet.
No matter what there will always be things one could find wrong with absolutely any car, every company makes a faulty car on a production line. I am sure that out of every 100 Toyotas produced there will be some that don't cut the mustard but one needs to generalize for the sake of sanity so what I am saying is that in general Toyota are leagues ahead of LR - simple.
You have a choice, we aren't living in communist Russia 20 years ago, it's the 21st century so why not get the best your money will buy. Of course if you want to hang out with other LR owners on weekend get-togethers in the Surrey countryside then a LR is a slice of British history, just like the good old MG but if you want to go around the world then that's a totally different story.
Choice is a great thing but please don't try and prove something that LR are superior - quite simply they are not and nothing will convince me or hundreds of thousands otherwise.

The no rust applies only to the body panels (well, some!). The chassis and bulkhead rust badly, as do some parts in the doors. Mine did - the rear chassis cross member was rotten and the bulkhead shot to hell, as were door frames. We have a couple of even older HZJ75s to compare to and they are nowhere near as bad - not even close. The downside of the aluminium body is that it is also far more difficult to panel beat, weld and generally repair. It is also far less strong in an accident. As a fleet manager making decisions based on commercial reasons we ruled out rovers years ago - and we did run a defender p/up. No amount of "passion" or sentiment is worth anything when your vehicles are expected to earn their keep. Okay that is not maybe so relevant to overlanding, but for most people it would probably be. I like rovers and owned one, later when circumstances permitted I went for a TLC 78 after working with TLCs for years and therefore having an opportunity to assess the two. I don't regret owning the rover as it was a learning experience, but it was a love/hate relationship. I have discussed this with other commercial users - miners rather than foresters - here and while some go Nissan (like us) or Mitsubishi for lighter duty vehicles, the general consensus is that the LC 70 series cannot be beat for longevity and reliability. The fact that Toyota pioneered Kaizan etc is reflected in their products. The fact that LR is now owned by Tata appears to sadly be reflected in their products. If you don't believe me or think I am biased then go check recent customer satisfaction surveys, which car etc. And we run a whole bunch of Tatas too, so my opinion is not misguided or anti-Tata in any way... they are shockingly built is all. At the end of the day we are all spouting opinions, but global sales figures and success tend to speak for themselves. As for warranty well we have (in 14 years of fleet use of many TLCs) never had an issue... but if we did well believe me the warranty stands - off road or not. Underground is probably viewed a bit differently:nono:

Okay this could be spleen venting or more "car" stuff, but on the other hand a lot of people in the UK are under the impression that LR is the best "4x4 x far", so I honestly feel that they should really be given the whole story before jumping in a Landy. Okay I have now decided never (on HUBB) ever to comment on LR vs LC again as I cannot really think of anything else to add.
Cheers,
Gil

blah blah
 

yadda yadda mine's shinier than yours etc etc....

My two penn'orth - Ive used both, Im LR out of choice, TLC if there's no Solihull. Thats after a lot of miles in E and W ends of the Sahara (incl living there for a good while, 10,000+ offroad miles a year when I did) and a fair bit further south and east.

BUT (and its a big but) I think Solihull's lost the plot. If they scrapped their designs as far back as 1991 and stuck with V8/200Tdi rather than enough electronics to play PSP games on, they'd have a winning formula. These days they are marketting cars that trade on their reputation as the "car that built Africa" but sell cars that cant be fixed without major computers and widgets. Stupid. Self-defeating - and for a company that prides itself on 70 years of top-end 4x4s to ignore the fact that this reputation will disintegrate in the next few decades... madness.

My tired 110 is wearing out. Ill replace her with - herself. A rebuild. I want the Luddite lack of electronics combined with the reliability and ability of the basic LR platform. And in twenty years time Ill still be using her hard in the Sahara. Probably with some hydrogen fuelcell engine cos the EU has outlawed diesels.....
(presuming the Sahara isnt all tarmac and burger kings by then)

Ollie - stick with your 110. She is a good truck.

One needs to separate LR from Defender. It strikes me LR know exactly what they're doing and judging by sales figures, until the recent global crash were more successful than ever. It's just that their world-class SUVs are widely considered unsuitable for the minority pursuit of serious overland travel for the reasons we know well. The long-neglected Defender does not sell well enough to feature in LR's big plans and their reputation won't get an better or worse than it is.

As pre-CRD/CAN bus cars get marginalised, the future of overlanding will be in learning to hack around error codes or dodgy sensors in the field. Don't ask me if that is even possible!

... a lot of people in the UK are under the impression that LR is the best "4x4 x far", so I honestly feel that they should really be given the whole story before jumping in a Landy...

That is really the crux of this thread isn't it. Educated yourself, make your mind up and enjoy the ride.

Ch

I'm about 1/3rd way thought this book right now. great reading (typical dry humour from Mr Sheppard)

G-Wagon seems to be pretty reliable, although according to the book, he had some teething troubles when he first got it, needed a new engine or dash loom i think it was.

Be careful Runner, I rebuilt my 1983 110 on a galvanised chassis with a 200tdi engine years ago and now I'm probably stuck with it untill I can't get up into it (50years hopefully).
I know when I was working in the Okavango I pined for it (used landcruisers and 300tdi 90s).
Both brands needed plenty of fixing with the hammer we were giving them, but not nearly as much as the Independant front suspension Nissan.

Definitely, and then apply the same thinking to the cruisers. I don't think a Hj 45 has much to do with an LC200.

The badge war is a red herring surely. More interesting to compare some cars.

Hi there, I have overlooked this classic and everlasting thread. I am the owner of a non-ECU Def 300tdi. This March I spent 3 weeks with friends in Murzug and Ubari, with LC Fj60, LC 100, Disco 1 and my Def. Results were the following:

• Disco 1 – busted diff in rear axle (replaced with spare one in the dunes)
• FJ60 – impressive in the dunes but eventually busted crankshaft, engine replaced in Ghadames
• LC100 – went well until started to choke on the way back in Ubari. It made to the ferry in Tunis but injector pump died on highway in Austria
• Defender – always behind the rest on tarmac but made it home in one piece. Two moths later, fuel lift pump shot. Replaced in 1 hour but it pissed me off, it was Easter afternoon

I guess that choosing Def is going against the statistics but you can trust no brand. I stick to my def despite 20+ kg of spares carried in the trunk. Next one will be LC 7 with perhaps only 10+ kg spares in the trunk.

Cheers,

Jarek

Slightly off topic in that it’s not LR vs Toyota but I thought I would share my recent experience in Morocco. As you may expect I was out numbered, surrounded by LR’s. All of which performed well, virtually no issues. They were un molested, pretty standard and well maintained.
But the humiliation of it all. My G Wagen needed a front wheel bearing. Easily fixed, didn’t even need to dip in to my own spares box.
In hind sight I came out with a slightly odd comment though, along the lines of “front wheel bearings are a known weakness on G Wagens”.
It had only lasted 16 years and 220k miles:(


Russ:thumbup1: