|
tdi 200 or 300 better for dz?
Cant seem to find this spelt out on the web but I'm told is 200s are better, even if they will be older.
Who would car to spell out or add to the pros and cons below (not getting too much into the well known the t-belt business) - and are they significant enough to actively seek out a good 200 over a 3? What I'm told so far is: "200, simple, fast, powerfull, very adjustable with big intercoolers, ecconomical, strong... 300, 'refined' but lots of silly problems with alternators, t belts, heads cracking, water pumps - use a little more fuel, faster though, but not by much" True or false? thanks Ch |
Think false IMHO. 300TDIs are more powerful, reliable, a better engine. The only liability I am aware of with them is the timing belt issue on some of them. The main reason you see lots of 200TDI engines on serious tricked up offroaders is primarily because they are cheaper. Providing that money isn't a limiting factor, would defintely advise buying a 300TDI over a 200TDI.
|
Well that's put a spanner in the works. I want a clean cut answer!
Another other HOs? Ch |
Give Richard Turner a ring on this as well, he can give an expert opinion on the subject.
Col |
i used to have a 200Tdi, and now run a (hand built by me) 300Tdi 90, also used to have a company car 300Tdi 110.
there isn't much difference between them really, driving wise. the 300 revs a little more and a little "smoother" (as smooth as a 4 cyl diesel gets anyway!) "tickover pulling away" torque seems ever so slightly less on the 300 compared to a 200. its a bit like comparing the old 2.5TD to the 200 Tdi, the old 2.5TD had a LOT of torque right from tickover. horsepower between the 200 and 300 is the same. something like 111.7bhp. toque is slightly higher on the 300, but not much. i've had no problems with the serpentine belt on my 300. it's certainly easier servicing it as you don't have to fart about tensioning it, although the only down side to it, compared to the 300, is that the PAS pump on the 300Tdi is run off of the one serpentine belt, where the 200 had a separate belt for the PAS. now, should your PAS pump ever fail then you could just remove the belt on the 200 and carry on, whereas on the 300 you'd be left stranded. saying that, this has only happened to me once years ago. and i was in town near home so i just kept stopping until the engine cooled down then drove a little further. i'd go for a 300 everytime. i currently also have a Td5 110 SW.... i'd never take that thing anywhere remotely unaccessable by an RAC lorry! |
Both mine are 200Tdi.
Thought that might help! Sam. |
IMO, the 300TDi is a slightly better choice. It got a bad reputation because of the timing belt thing, and it definitely doesn´t like being overheated. (But then, neither does the 200TDi).
If the fluids are checked regularly, and belts are good, they are both excellent engines, but I´d rather go for the later one. My 2p worth, having had vehicles with both engines. (The astute reader will know that I mean separate vehicles, not Land Rovers with multiple engines). Regards, Michael... www.expeditionoverland.com |
>.... i currently also have a Td5 110 SW.... i'd never take that thing anywhere remotely unaccessable by an RAC lorry!
Why do you say that DJ, from bitter experience - or the thought of a bitter experience? Ch |
Quote:
Note that on 200tdi Disco's the PAS pump is driven with the same belt as the Water pump, and the Alternator is driven from a second pully on the PAS pump. In opinion an design error of the disco engineers. |
<>.... i currently also have a Td5 110 SW.... i'd never take that thing anywhere remotely unaccessable by an RAC lorry!
Why do you say that DJ, from bitter experience - or the thought of a bitter experience? Ch > the thing broke down the first day i got it (i had it for 2 hours, and it only had 34miles on the clock!) since then i've had numerous problems with it, ranging from overheating,siezed engine,PAS box,main gearbox (ok, not Td5 specific), numerous water leaks etc. and i really think that this engine is underpowered (especially for my 110 SW which is <fairly> heavy). my 300 used to go much better, and the Td5 is very uneconomical too, compared to the 300. |
Holy moly, I've read of similar stories but 2 hours must be a record - I dont know how you LR guys can stand the tension!
I thought Td5 build was a new leaf. Ch |
Hi DJ,
I'm sorry to hear that you really got a lemon. I agree with the lack of power (compaired to what it should be in a modern car of its size). But when it comes to reliability, I disagree somewhat re. the TD5. We drove 62000 km though africa without a single engine problem, and now, several 1000 kms later, still no problems. I know a lot of TD5 owners here in Norway who have leaking door seals when it rains, ACs that don't really make it much cooler etc. but no engine problems. We also met quite a lot of TD5 local defender and discos owners in east/southern africa (plus one in Sudan!), where the natural conversation of TD5 reliability came up, with apperently no engine problems. Thats not to say there weren't other problems like broken half-shafts etc. But then on the otherhand we had to tow a stranded "newish" LC78 out from the middle of Abedare national park in Kenya because the rear half-shafts were buggered. The guide and his tourist were quite happy to see us come by! Although they took of with barely a thanks, as if we might ask for money from them... Mecanical problems like these seem to be just as much a driver induced thing, as a car brand thing. I have to admit though that your problems do sound really extreme, not to mention irritating. What has LR said about the faults? Erik D. www.dunia.no ------------------ |
Quote:
the engine siezure was due to my dealership not tightening up the sump plug properly... it had gone in for a service and heated rear window fixing, when i went back a week later to tell them that the HRW was STILL not working, i also mentioned that the sump plug was dripping oil, 2 days later it fell out! they did give me an exra one years warranty on the vehicle as a "piece of mind" gesture. i think i've just definately got a friday afternoon special. it's the 3rd brand new defender i've had, and only been the worst, the other two were fine (ish...) the 90 that i built myself have been immpecable!!! |
I don`t think this is really a thing particular to LR or the TD5, it is just an example of it happening to a TD5 LR.
If you take any major vehicle manufacturer, BMW, Ford, VW, Audi etc, they all turn out vehicles that have these niggling problems straight from the factory, look at any car mag and have a look at the reliability tables and some of the big names all have problems, Merc`s included, ANY vehicle with electronic fuel injection can leave you stranded anywhere, not just LRs, and most of these problems that happen early on are just items that slipped through the compainies quality control(addmitadly LR sometime feature worse than some), but I think anyone who drove from the showroom to the desert would have to have rock in their head, and you would at least have to do enough milage to shake the vehicle down properly and run it in, after this period most of these factory problems will come to light and should be sorted out in the first or second factory service, dealers are dealers every where, you get good and bad. I really think its a mind set, if your happy to take a new electronic vehicle into the desert irrelevent of the make fine, and if your worried about this aspect don`t, simple as that. I have spoken to one of the major LR/camper hire companies in Australia runs a fleet of TD5 Disco`s and 110s, and he swears by em, and turns them over every 100 000KMs, and he has had no major electronic related hang ups, just the usual niggling things that LRs are famous for. I think people in Australia are more comfortable with TD5s in remote places than, people in the UK, and I think a lot of that come down to the fact that most offroad LR owners here are into serious mud plugging, and are always concious of water related problems, and take that mind set with them, where in Australia there are a lot of people who live in remote places and they mostly all drive petrol and diesel ECU cotrolled vehicles and have next to no problems with then, so ar`nt quite as hung up on these electronic unknowns. I am not trying to justify LR, just trying to break the mind set that all these things only happen to LR, they also happen to other manufacturers as well, its just everyone expects it of a LR. Col Campbell |
Quote:
A workshop which didn't tighten the sump plug so it fell out doesn't have much to do with TD5 reliability. This could have happened with a Rolls-Royce for that sake! Although I doubt the mechanics at RR are that unprofessional! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/wink.gif Col, could you tell us why your ozi friend changes the cars at 100,000? Are there any specific things that pop up at that time? Erik D. www.dunia.no ------------------ |
Erik this is the sort of milage that most fleet operators, from hire to company cars turn their vehicles over, its a compromise between resale value and sale ability, off loading high milage newer vehicles is always harder, and I spose that it is also a point where most operators feel that problems might start coming into their fleet, there ar`nt many fleet vehicle that lead and easy life, poeple will do things to a company or hire car that they would never consider doing to their own car.
But for a private vehicle like yours that has been maintained, and has a history that you know about should last for many years. I would love a new a newer vehicle but money dictates, not to metion the value of a carnet required for something worth an arm or a leg. Col |
Col,
"one of the major LR/camper hire companies in Australia runs a fleet of TD5 Disco`s and 110s" Would this be THA? Ch |
|
Think there are two main parts to the Aus / LR arguement. 1) most Aussies don't rate LRs, Toyota has a real dominance through reliability, through aftermarket support and primarily through advertising that convinces ordinary Aussies who have never been in an offroad that the LC is the best.
That aside, the other key difference with offroading in Aus is that you can always get support. I lived there for several years and travelled throughout the outback. The reality is that as long as One takes food and water so One can survived for a while and travels with a HF radio / Sat phone then you can always get support. Might cost a bit and One might have to wait a few days for it to turn up but fairly easy to do. Completely different scenario to Africa where even if you have communication devices, there is no guarantee that you can get support. Parts are difficult to source, etc. Would have absolutely no worries about taking a TD5 in to the Aussie outback. Would not necassarily be the same for Africa. We had major problems crossing from Chad to Sudan in a 300TDI with bad diesel. We were able to deal with the problem in a 300TDI but would have been in serious trouble with a TD5 and we would have really struggled to get parts, help, etc. |
Quote:
Col PS, sorry Chris this thread has started to drift of track a little. |
If anyone needs the manufactuer and spec of a 300tdi belt that is short enough to miss the PAS pump then drop me an email
Maybe a good thing to carry as part of a spares package I use them as Tiggurr does not use the pas pump ------------------ Rich LR101 300Tdi Ambi 'Tiggurr' |
Well this topic of conversation came up again the other day and I think there are a couple of other advantages to the 300 TDI over the 200 TDI.
With the 300 you get the R380 gearbox, which is am improvement over the LT77, and secondly and more importantly you get a disc brake rear axle over the 200s drum brake rear axle. The disc brake axle apart from being more efficient is a hell of a lot more maintenance free in regaurds to brake pad wear etc. Overall I dont really think it matters which one you get 200 or 300, which ever comes along at the best price for its condition. Col Campbell |
The 200tdi is more popular for conversions on older landies 'cos you don't have to change the gearbox, which I believe you do have to on the 300, along with a few other mods. The timing belt thing didn't apply to all 300tdi models and most should have worked their way through by now. If in doubt ensure that it has been checked by the dealer as to whether it needs the spacer to deal with missalligned pulleys that cause premature fan belt failure. I was advised by a land rover techniciam that the td5 was unsuitable for africa because of fuel prolems. Incidently he had just spent 45 minutes trying to work out why a new model rangie wouldn't start. Turned out the electronics had shut down because water had got into a headlight, handy in a 4x4! This kind of thing, and the difficulty of repair are probably the biggest reasons for not taking a TD5 vehicle into Africa. I think landrover have forgotten their core business to chase a fashion trend.
|
have you guys considered the 300's injection system is controlled by a ecu which could be a problem miles from anywhere and the 200's is by far easier to repair.
|
|
True Roman,
my 300TDI doesn't have an ECU anywhere in sight (or out of sight) - just a standard fuel pump etc. Depends on the year. The '98 D90 engine in my 1982 Range Rover is, apparently, one of the last non-electronically controlled engines. B |
The later 300Tdis do have an EGR, consisting of a black box and some pipework, but all that does is reduce emmisions a tiny bit and gunk up the hoses... Many people take it off, with no ill effect. I know a couple of people thoght the EGR box was an ECU, but it's not.
Rgds, Nick. ------------------ Nick Taylor www.exerro.com ------------------ 1996 BMW F650 1996 300 TDi 90 1997 NAS D90 ST #685 1998 Camel Trophy 110 CT47 |
doh| thanks very much for putting my knowledge to rights, gary.
|
Hi,lets get back to the point, 200 or 300tdi. well I would go for the 300. reasons being it would be a newer engine then the 200 if buying 2nd hand. The belt fault can be sorted by fitting a new belt and the kit which land rover sales. The 300 tdi gives out the same power as the 200. land rover changed the fuel injection system to keep the noice down.
There is of course the new 2.8 tdi made in brazil, thats the engine I am going for. I may also add that know early engines use an ECU, not even the new 2.8. hope this helps. terry |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 19:02. |