Learning to Winch?
 

I suspect my upcoming trip will involve getting stuck so have invested in a winch for the landy.

But to avoid the classic mistake of only using it for the first time when stuck, can anybody suggest a course or something where I can learn to use it and winching techniques etc?

A day trip from London or close to Derbyshire would be great.

Not really
 

Only help I can give is always imagine the winch cable snapping and the resulting, whipping cable-keep out of range! Set it up with minimal slack to speed up the action if it's a manual winch-saves a lot of extra effort. Linzi.

You could do worse than read this: http://warn.com/corporate/images/90/...US.readers.pdf

I just went to a pay and play with a mate (after 1st line in/out on the drive) got stuck and we pulled each other around all day... knackering stuff!

All i can say is, live in fear of the cable! Its the safest way! from wearing gloves when you handle it to standing at an oblique angle when your making a recovery. Throw something heavy over the line to dampen the kenetic energy should it fail, An old coat, blanket, sheet or buy a proper winch sail.

I dont know anybody who has been on a course, but i know the guys down at Goodwinch in Devon do one. Im sure they know what they are doing too.

HTH

G

Training Day
 

Hi Darrin, haven't done the winch training day, but have done the off road training day with land rover adventure, near your way at Rockingham Castle. they do the group training for £55, which was easily as good as the solo training we got for £300 elsewhere.

Check it out here

Calendar

We also joined our local land rover club, The Shire (Hampshire) and will inundated with people happy to give us a two hour demonstration.

Winching
 

One of the Land Rover magazines did a series of teaching articles on this a few years back.If u can access these they would be useful anyway.

Some golden rules:

Make sure your jate points are up to it(fit them back and front).
Make sure others attachment points are up to it(seen lots of scrap left behind:nono:)
Only use RATED shackles.
Use tag lines attached to the car/cable to partly stop throw of cable in case of failure.
Use blanket etc over mid cable
Wear gloves.
Do not allow anyone to sit in cars(in line of flying cable)whilst winching.
Stand well away.

All hairy stuff coz u won't do it often and therefore each time will be a first so to speak!

I imagine the Land Rover magazines are full of ads for training - I'd recommend LRM as a good read...

As Griffdowg says, David Bowyer's (Goodwinch) place down in Devon was one of the first off-road schools, and will do specific winching/recovery courses; or you could also try Vince Cobley at ProTrax who are a little closer to home in Northants...

xxx

Land Rover Adventure
 

Land Rover Adventure is Vince and Ed Cobley. And I have got to say they gave us value for money. Not only did we have the full training day for £55, but also they noticed my UJ was about to go, and took me down to their garage, fixed us up and sent us home. Just after breaking into the landie to get our unlocked keys out :blush::blush:

A quality service for a discount price....

Ah, thanks for pointing that out CD - I've been out of the Land Rover loop for a while now and hadn't realised they trade under that name now...

Glad to hear you had a good time with them!

xxx

Winching Dangers
 

Just to reinforce what just about everyone has said about the dangers of winching. On LR’s there are what appear to be recovery points bolted to the chassis, front and rear. It’s difficult to describe them but if you just stick your head under there they are pretty obvious.
They ARE NOT rated for recovery use, I believe they are there for tying down the LR on transporters / recovery trucks etc. Yours may have been removed by a sensible previous owner though.

That's right - on the Defender models the D shaped ring that bolts through the chassis - commonly referred to as Jate Rings...

They are pretty strong, as they are intended to secure military vehicles to pallets during air-drops/transportation, but I would agree they are not an ideal winch rope return or snatch recovery point. However, I understand a common practice is to use a strop between the two to spread the load, which has proved successful.

Certainly a proper chassis mounted hook (or heavy duty four-bolt pin hitch on the rear cross member for example) is far safer for recovery purposes.

xxx

The D shaped rings are lashing points not jate rings. As stated about, these should never be used for recovery, they are not rated high enough.

These are Jate Rings: PM632 Jate Rings (pr) Galvanised

and are rated for recovery. They are the cheapest form of obtaining reliable recovery points. they bolt through the main chassis legs both front and rear.

Jmo, you are correct in saying that the Cobley's run Protrax. Nothing has changed there. What CD was refering to (i think) is the Land Rover Owner Adventure Club (LROAC) which is predominantly run by the Cobleys (Protrax) they advertise exculusively through LROI magazine, running greenlane trips to Wales, Winch coarses, Morocco trips and others.

Personally i wouldnt give them a penny :thumbdown: rather spend my money taking myself to Africa. What they offer isnt out of the realms of a good local club.

But im getting :offtopic:

I think winching is more down to experience, understanding your setup and the mechanics/physics of the winch mechanism. Whatever you do with it, just take your time and think it through :thumbup1:

G

I bow to your greater knowledge in this respect of course Griffdowg, but I was always under the impression people referred to the cast D shape shackles you find on Military 'Rovers as 'Jate Rings' too?

Hell, even these guys do!

Jate Rings

Certainly the link you've posted shows a more substantial version.

xxx

ps. I'd best wonder off now and stick to bikes... x

They certainly do! I’ve seen the M25 quieter than some of the green lanes in Wales when these lot are about:thumbdown:



Embarrassing to be seen in a 4x4 in the same County

Sorry for hijacking:offtopic:


Russ

Sorry Jmo, I was not thinking of Military kit. Yes those jate rings they use are one and the same. When you said D rings, I thought you meant the teardrop shape lashing eyes found as standard "civvy" rovers.

Russ, you should have bumped into them in Morocco!

28 vehicles descending the Todra Gorge :nono: Not stopping to talk to local kids, throwing pens out of the window instead :(. I was ashamed to be British and in a Land Rover as we carried on past areas where they had come from.

I think we had the better experience as a solo vehicle, stopping to talk to kids and giving lifts to adults :thumbup1:

Sorry :offtopic:

G

Tie Down Attachments
 

:offtopic:OK sorry people for going off topic again but I just had to comment on that. 28 in a convoy, that’s just plain nuts.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not getting all superior and snooty about organised trips. That was my introduction to Morocco and without that I may not have had the confidence to go it alone.

But being in a convoy that big must be hell, not to mention the impact on the local environment:funmeterno:

Anyway teardrop shape was the description I was struggling with. Best to remove them to stop the temptation of using them IMHO.
Compared to kinetic ropes or hi lift jacks winching is pretty safe though.

I agree, however, might it have been on of ProTrax's 'events' rather than the usual travel tour type thing? - Doesn't Vince still run a challenge type event in Morocco? - perhaps these were all the competitors together on liason?

Still doesn't make it right mind you!

xxx

JMO,

Protrax do not organise competitions. I dont think they have the correct insurances to run such things. Besides, they make enough money without running them!

These were not competition vehicles, these were all standard Land Rovers some containing families. I could see them coming down the gorge, strung out over a mile or so :thumbdown:. Stopped and had a brief chat with the "tour leader", then we carried on.

Now i am getting all superior and snooty about organised trips, because they charge a hell of a lot and dont really give much back. If the doggy poo hits the fan you are on your own.

Russ, if i can organise a 4week solo trip to Morocco anybody can! never driven abroad before, only been driving 3 years to. We did plenty of pistes and had an awesome time. total cost? 2k :scooter:

Maybe i should start a new thread? Sorry for the Hijack Darrin :nono:

G

That's ok, I too have suffered the aftermath of 'tour's that are far too large.

Interesting timing though as I'm currently considering offering some unique yak tours in September/October - individually tailored trips for very small groups, mostly staying with local families and desert camping.

Anyway, back to Winching!

If your offering something unique where a lot of thought and preperation has gone into it then tours can be very rewarding/worthwhile. what you propose to do sounds very good. Keep the size of the group small/managable, I would also be inclined to almost "vet" your customers! It would be wise to ask questions and make sure they have the right attitude/kit/spares. Anyone can spend $$$ to do your tour, but to make it work you need everyone to be working together with the same aims/goals. You dont want a couple of defenders who want to drive hard and fast with a family in a disco or a series 2. You couldnt please everyone, so someone would be disappointed. maybe a questionaire and elimination process is the way forward?!

Thats why i feel companies who just advertise in the mags and take as many people as they can do it all wrong, and they get a lot of bad press through forums too. Charging around trying to make campsites before dark, hurrying people along to meet deadlines. Its not the way. you should be prepared to adapt/change the route (whilst out there) to tailor your customers needs. Speak to them, what they want to see? do?

always adapting/changing/evolving along the way :thumbup1: thats my recipe for a good tour anyway. If you need a back-up motor for Moroc Darrin, I will be up for it.

G

Darrin, I have never done a winch course, but maybe a LANTRA course run for telecom/local authority type drivers might be cheaper and better than the recreational type LR experience/Vince something type courses?

And yes I suppose it would be best to remove tie down points if fitting recovery points... but otherwise leave them be (gentle winching/towing will likely be fine). To be honest I have subjected Toyota and Nissan "non rated" points or "pig tails" to some pretty large forces. LR ones too - a CAT D7 can pull pretty hard. Okay serious jerking or snatching I would not want to be near. I have also narrowly avoided serious injury while spooling wire back onto the drum - gloves and a hook holder are needed, which I learned the hard way a few times. The winch installation also needs some care and it is generally also recomended to fit a manual disconnect switch between the winch and batteries in case of solenoids sticking while winching resulting in the winch not stopping! I have never seen this with a winch but I have with an overhead electric crane (think BIG winch) and it was interesting...

The best thing about vehicle recovery I have learned (and subsequently read) is to sit back (tea, fag whatever) and calmy think and plan all your intentions as logically as possible. The natural reaction is to hurry and get out of the situation as fast as possible - don't! Plan and anticipate what can go wrong... Then start. I learn't this from 13 years improvising recovery of dozers etc. I am no professional or military tank recovery type but I have learnt a bit from trial and error - 3 days to get a disabled 30 ton Dozer out of a river was a memorable one. There is a very good, tiny book with some very good 4x4 recovery techniques but for the life of me I cannot remember it's name!

BTW this Vince chap can't be all bad if he did CD's UJ for FOC!

Training
 

Definitely good advice re. the LANTRA, utility type training. A friend and I ran exactly those types of courses a few years back and the principle was to do things in a controlled and safe manner. START philosophy was used “stop, think, action plan, record(ok don’t need to write things down) and talk. I’m not saying that recreational training is completely yah hoo but you may well find that in some UK off road clubs.

Lets attach a kinetic rope to the tie down eyes as talked about above and see what speed we can get the recovery vehicle up to before the other vehicle either flys through the air or the entire front end detaches itself does happen :oops2:

:eek3:

Either my ARB bumper is stuck against a bank or my axles are standing on mud before the winch gets deployed. Either way, I know im in trouble if the winch is needed especially on our own.

G

FWIW - gentle winching - okay maybe I should clarify... my definition of gentle winching:

lets say soft mud and you have lost traction - you would use your winch then no? As opposed to completely absolutely bogged and you need a double line pull with literally tons of force to get you out. My point is that most overlanding really does not need uprated recovery points.

For the sake of £20 i would rather purchase a pair of jate rings (in the case of a LR) than take my chances on the lashing eyes.

I think that is a little naive Gilghana? Who's to say just 'how stuck' you are going to get? - if you could chose that you probably wouldn't be getting stuck in the first place?!

I would say any vehicle that is going to be used on road/trail conditions that might need recovery (either self, or by another vehicle) ought to have secure recovery points - as Griffdawg says, they are not expensive, and could prevent more serious damage or injury?

Yes you can often make do in a situation (just last weekend I saw some guys in a 2WD Ford explorer wrapping a tow-strop around their front suspension A-arm for goodness sake?!) - just like you can drive/ride round the world on crappy tyres if you want... but surely a few sensible precautions (which is what vehicle preparation is all about) makes such a situation far safer?

xxx

Well, for twenty quid I am not going to argue with anyone. On the point of naivety however I would - but not here as it is not constructive for anyone.

BTW Darrin I think it would be interesting to know how you get on with the training if you do it!

That's fair, I didn't mean it to sound personally insulting, only that in general that noone can foresee the extent of a recovery required? I was using it as a pointer for the less experienced to consider?

xxx

All cool - as a matter of interest I have chosen an ARB locked rear and truetrac front rather than "external" recovery aids - will post up some rainforest testing soon...

Slightly off topic but,

Looking at this from a slightly different point guys, there may be a time when your "stuck" vehicle has to be recovered by someone whilst you are not there to control it.
You could be hospitalised, and the "local recovery team" can do a lot of damage to your pride and joy if they just attach cables to a weak lashing eye and pull the crap out of it.
Fitting good recovery points should be a no brainer.
If theres an obvious recovery point they will use it, we see accident damaged cars come in for work on the back of trucks where the recovery drivers have caused just as much damage as the crash.


Gaz

so your relying on a rear locking diff and LSD front to get you out of trouble? They will certainly help, but your traction will still be limited by your choice of rubber. Atleast with a winch or recovery vehicle these factors do not come into it. If your travelling with a group this may not be a problem, but as a solo vehicle, i wouldnt risk it (terrain dependent).

G

Hi Darrin,

As mentioned there are a lot of clubs that will do some winch training - you could ask at your local AWDC (All Wheel Drive Club) as one option.

- but there are also a lot of weekend warriors out there who dont have a clue what they are doing, so going down the LANTRA route is a good way of learning all the aspects of what a winch can and cannot do safely to a set standard with no omissions.

There are lots of LANTRA providers out there with lots of different prices, but if you go this route choose someone who has been around a while with a recomendation or two.

Though not the cheapest I can recommend the Land Rover Experience Malverns nr Cheltenham - excellent terrain and top Instructors, with lots of Rovers to play with.:thumbup1:

I worked at LRE West Country and at LRE Malverns before I moved to Canada....:rolleyes2:.....Its amazing what you give up for Love...Doh !!!

Cheers
Grif

Everything has it's limitations. I have found situations where an electric (or engine driven either mechanical or hydraulic) winch would be useless. If you try to cover every base you will end up with a Unimog with front and rear winches - and they also have limitations (size, fuel use, speed etc). I would be really interested how many overlanders really end up using winches - normal overland trips, not looking for trouble. I am not relying on them per se - I am well aware of the vehicle's limitations. This has been learnt the hard way most times. If people can drive around the Sahara in a 2cv then my HZJ78 should manage some more of Africa with no winch. I have a winch - just elected not to fit it after seeing how little (like none!) use I had for it in traveling. Everyone is different though. i.e. Darrin knows he probably needs one I know I probably don't. Likely we will both be wrong at some point. However I am quietly confidant in my ability to survive getting stuck a few more times - has happened a fair bit. I just happen to like fooling around with diffs and the control they give in situations other than stuck.

Winch vs Difflocks
 

Well I’m with Gilghana1 on this one. But then I would as I have 3 difflocks as standard:smartass::smartass:

Seriously just about anytime I’ve managed to get stuck I’ve known it was about to happen. Therefore in a situation where I was on my own I would avoid such situations (I know not always possible). Winches? Heavy, unreliable, expensive, potentially dangerous, false sense of security.

On an overland trip I’d just take a tirfor and pack it right at the bottom on the basis that I would avoid needing to actually find it/use it.

But then I’m a cheapskate and can get tirfors for free:thumbup1:

Russ

TLC HZJ8 Factory standard recovery/lashing point. There is one on each chassis leg. The only drawback is that you would have to use a shackle. Not saying anything, just thought it was a bit on topic and I was rolling around under the car with a camera anyway.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_iUsWRT5vB7Q/Sf...0/DSC00038.JPG

TLC Recovery Point
 

Just as well you’re not planning on getting stuck, they look a little flimsy to me:innocent:

"tirfor and pack it right at the bottom"

I went for a front mounted winch as the alternative was a tirfor which I have had in the past. The problem with the tirfor for me was it was impossible to store it inside the vehicle - it's kinda large, heavy and odd shaped.

So it was always in the way, and if it was dirty then it went inside the vehicle where I often sleep which added an authentic aroma.

For £300 I was able to buy a new 'budget' Superwinch and bumper adaptor from Dave Bowyer. Not much more than a new Tirfor, but heavier and probably more prone to not working due to it's electrical bits etc

But its mounted on the front of the vehicle nicely out of the way and will be useful for some of the routes I have lined up.

http://www.bigsky-adventures.com/dia.../22-may/01.jpg