Handguns
 

A friend is considering taking a handgun (pistol) with him on a trans-Africa. He is professionally trained in its' use.

My advice is an unequivocal 'No'!

For a great long list of reasons.

I would be very interested to hear other views on this one...

Sam.

Sam,

I gather you're trying to stimulate the forum which has become rather lifeless once we covered other, less controversial pieces of expedition hardware, such as compressors, jerry cans, CB radios etc.

Can we keep this forum free from guns and drugs, please?

Rgds,
Roman (UK)

P.S. Don't tell us your friend has been trained by the army and is planning a trip to Iraq.

Roman,

The forum doesn't need stimulating - it's already very good.

My point is a valid one. I am asked all the time by planning overlanders (going all over the world) about weapons, my advice is always 'no' (same as drugs, as it happens). What he takes is, of course his own (informed) choice - hence this post.

There are people, though, who have and do take things for defence - and I would be interested to hear from them what they take and the reasons why. I, for instance, always have a baseball bat and softball...

Sam.


PS If he's headed for Iraq via the Sahara, he's more in need of a map than a gun!

My landy has a cricket bat, small woodmans axe and a machete. I have these to use for their original purpose that they were designed for, but if something serious happens then hopefully one of these is within reach I guess.

A gun seems just plain dumb to me.

In Pakistan the biggest threat to my life was when I joined in games of cricket when asked too. The average 14 year old kid was quicker and more lethal than any bowler England has ever produced, and this on bumpy pitches with no boxes.

Moral? Most people come a cropper from things like motor accidents and illness. The chances of getting into a situation where a gun would actually do you any good, as oppsed to getting you shot, are very slim in my mind.

Only take what you would be prepared to have turned on yourself.

I would respond to this question by saying that by taking a gun you are raising the stakes in any confrontation and endangering not only yourself but those with whom you travel. If you are unarmed it not in a thieves interest to kill you. By carrying a gun you force that escalation.

You are also setting a precedent whereby locals may expect other tourists to be similarly armed, with all the negative consequences that entails.

If you are caught by the police or customs the penalties could be severe. If you are involved in a shooting you may also get put in jail.

You may also misread a situation and end up shooting un-uniformed personnel.

I also agree with Chris Scott's comments in his book. The bits which particularly stuck in my mind where "sickeningly brutal etc" and good insurance being the key so that you can walk away from the situation without financial loss.

Re an alternative, I carry a side handled police baton which gives some peace of mind, and is not designed to cause fatal injuries.

On a final note lets remember that hopefully you travel to the Sahara for positive reasons: landscapes, people, history and culture etc and whilst you need to look out for yourself you also need to be positive and open if you are to engage the local people and enjoy yourself.

Sam,

Here's how I do it.

I never leave home without my trusted Quantum Weapon Enhancer with built-in Nano-Regenerative Protoplasmer and Anti-Gravity Pack Accelerator to shoot Hyper-Velocity Ultritium Sub-Atomic Explosive-Charged Particles.

Should this awesome device's name fail to impress the opponent into submission, I reach for the ultimate weapon system:

• Tried and tested
• No moving parts
• Fully waterproof and rustproof
• Will not jam or seize
• Easy to conceal and completely untetectable
• Always ready for use

i.e. my wits ;-)

Rgds,
Roman (UK)

I'm taking one of the brick-throwing, 6-year old kids from Bordj el Haoues on my trans-African trip.
I reckon a gun would be good against lions, but bad form against any armed bandidos.

I would have thought the key point in taking a gun is an ability to use it. When people say they have been trained to use it, does that go as far as actually shooting someone because, by virtue of taking it, there is a very real chance this situation will occur. By far the majority of trans african travellers, will never have been in this scenario, yet there is a misplaced belief that by producing a gun, things will calm down. What happens if the opponents also produce guns and just want to get on with the process of shooting you as you have now produced a weapon. Whilst many no doubt know how to operate weapons, I think most people would be complete lost in the concept of actually having to use it on someone else. It also suggests travelling with the wrong mind set.

Another aspect may be where does it stop, once you start escalating, the ability of locals to respond must be infinitely greater. Both in their access to weapons such as AK47s, the reaction of local officials, military, police, internal security.

On the very rare occasion when someone gets killed, it might of been very useful to have a weapon, in the hundreds or thousands of other incidents, that didn't develop and went away, through not having escalated, not having a weapon must be a distinct benefit.

I think this is a fair and even important topic for this type of forum. I lost track of how many friends and coworkers asssumed we would bring guns to africa with us.
In most situations a pistol will either worsen a bad situation, or be useless against a half dozen men with automatic rifles.
Even if you did successfully use it to protect yourself, are the local authorities going to say it's justified self defense and send you on your way?
The next issue is that it's probably illegal everywhere you go for a foreigner to wander around with a gun. Get caught at one border or checkpoint and you'll be in a lot of trouble.
I'm not sure if your friend is on 2 wheels or 4. If it's an expedition modified truck he can make a hidden compartment big enough for a pistol. I am NOT reccomending this but it is possible. I know a traveler who did this and went through 40+ countries, even knowing there was a hidden compartment I couldn't find it.
Instead I would reccomend a machette, axe, pepper spray, or even a flare gun.

-Ed

Can somebody explain me how to use a gun defensifly? Is that after you've been shot yourself or ofter you companion has been shot? Or do you have trained telescopic vision so that you can tell from a reasonable distance what kind of gun is in front of you and wether it is loaded or not?

Other sidemark... if you are taking a gun on your trip... Just remember that there are quite a bit of adults and childeren killed or injured by a gun by plain stupid accident. Or just because it was around on the wrong time at the wrong place. In Belgium by law you have to store the gun and bullets on different places, unless you are on duty. How are going to do this on the trip? Carry a loaded gun all the time?
And still there are incredibly stupid accidents (sometimes triggered by very emotional situations) happening weekly here.
Imagin having a friend, child, companion,... no matter who, killed or seriously injured because he found your gun...

There are better defensive moves to keep in mind mentioned in this forum. And as stated before a gun is, in my eyes, not a defensive tool. It is designed and developped as a offensive thing.
And if it is truly to defend yourself against guns and so... I'd rather wear a bulletproof vest then carry a gun. But since I wonna travel light next time wont even have that with me. Still think I can hide behind my bike :-)


PS: just thought of something I heard from an American friend who is in the army over there. He uses is bullet proof vest on the motorbike as protection when falling. Saved his live already onces is avery bad road crash. Think he might have a point. These things might be the ultimate protection for your thorax when falling.
Ooops, taking the topic 180° into the other direction. Sorry.



[This message has been edited by fireboomer (edited 03 March 2003).]

On the point of pepper spray, my advice is not to. If you want this style of defence, take a hobby can of fluor spray paint.

In case of checking by Police, it's entirely legal anywhere in the world.

The can is the same small 'handy' size.

In case of attack, just as effective as pepper spray (perhaps more so?!), but also marks the assailants face, hands and clothes, making finding him afterwards considerably easier.

Just a thought.

Sam.

Maybe some of you do not appreciate the sheer horror that overcomes most people when handguns of any kind are produced, fired or used in any shape or form. Most people will freeze or run in panic, but if others are armed then the response can be truly terrifying, even well armed and well trained personnel sometimes react in this way.
My advice/opinion would be NOT to carry any kind of handgun/firearm unless you are authorised to do so and then only if you are well trained in its use.
Also the comment above about locals being armed with much heavier firepower and in far greater numbers is quite likely - and should you happen to shoot one of them then the likely hood is that they will come after you with overwhelming force - the consequences of which are to me not worth thinking about.

As I said 'this is just IMHO so do want you feel comfortable with, but do not expect others to help or sympathise if you get into trouble from carrying or using firearms.

------------------
ChrisC

Silly thread, Sam!

Silly?

Why?

Sam.

Sam,
Certainly not as silly as SandyM implies, but every time it is raised, the conclusions are the same: check this forum's homepage ( http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb...ML/000054.html )

Rgds,
Roman (UK)