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bottle jack vs. hi-lift?
any recommendations from folks on whether to travel with a hi-lift jack or a bottle jack? and if you like the bottle jack, which size do you prefer?
i noticed on an old (2001) posting that Chris S said he sold his old hi-lift and now travels with the OME bottle jack (with an airbag jack in reserve for tight jams) and doesn't regret the change at all. |
Chris' advice might purely refer to North African deserts etc so he may be right in that environment, but I have worked and traveled in Southern Africa alot and have found the hi-lift to be superior to a bottle jack.
If your vehicle has the appropriate "lifting" points then the hi-lift stops you having to squirm under the vehicle in, sometimes, not very pleasant situations/conditions such as getting a flat in deep mud etc. The hi-lift has a multiple uses and is good for getting out of ruts and boggings and not just for flats which the bottle jack is more suited to. I carry my hi-lift, an airjack (never used) and the bottle jack (as a back-up) but for ease of use (in often unbearably hot conditions) the hi-lift is wonderfull. |
I abandoned my hi lift when I found that a suitably sized hydraulic jack was adequate. I am referring to use in desert, not muddy conditions. Maybe in deep mud a hi lift is more suitable I don't know, I don't have any experience. For desert use the hi lift is potentially dangerous, in a situation where you are remote from help, not to mention big, heavy and difficult to stow.
Andrew Baker. |
Any recovery procedure is "potentially dangerous" and I assume we have all heard all the horror stories about bodged snatch recoveries and hi-lift handles "twatting" people in the face, but I have never experienced it myself. I can only say that I have respect for my tools and especially the hi-lift - it has saved my arse more than once.
As to stowage I put it in an old innertube and bolt it onto my front bumper where it is easily accessible and it will be in exactly the right position to gouge holes in the body work of Jo'burgs' bloody combi drivers! |
Hi guys,
Can someone please describe how to change a shock absorber using only a bottle jack? ------------------ Roman (UK) www.overlandcruiser.info |
There is another option that I only saw on Dakar prepped cars and only in Equip Raid (French) catalog and that’s a hydro jack just as tall as the hi lift and the hydro mechanism climbs over the shaft just like a hi-lift. It looks just as capable and much less dangerous, no personal experience though.
------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. Coordinates Converter – Lat/Long <-> UTM Conversion Tool. |
Perhaps if I was working with the Paris-Dakar budget for such things I might consider it, but until then I'll have to stick with low-cost and low-tech.
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I bought a bottle jack for a 110 from halfords with a 3 ton rating. It worked once and then could not hold the weight of the Landie and kept deflating.
If you do go down the bottle jack route then I would go way over spec to be sure you don't experience similar troubles. Personally I'm a high lift fan, which dont forget you can also use as a winch. |
I think using a 3T rated bottle-jack isn't leaving much of a safety margin for an overland 110! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif
I got a 6T bottle-jack from Machine Mart (Clarks brand IIRC). I use that most of the time as it's usually punctures I'm dealing with. It's a lot less faff than the hi-lift. I still carry the hi-lift though, bolted to the rear wheel carrier. Didn't use it on the last two trips, but I can see when you'd need it in the mud and even on the rocks. Cheers, Nick. ------------------ Nick Taylor www.exerro.com ------------------ 1996 BMW F650 1996 300 TDi 90 1997 NAS D90 ST #685 1998 Camel Trophy 110 CT47 |
Also, I've seen the results, twice, of people being "twatted" (colourful word that!) by hi-lifts. Nasty, but ok if you want to loose weight on your soup-only diet for the next month or so!
Keep your head out of the arc of the handle! ------------------ Nick Taylor www.exerro.com ------------------ 1996 BMW F650 1996 300 TDi 90 1997 NAS D90 ST #685 1998 Camel Trophy 110 CT47 |
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------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. Coordinates Converter – Lat/Long <-> UTM Conversion Tool. |
Hi lifts are totally unsuitable for lifting a vehicle to work on unless they are suitably stabilised. Even if you have other support under the vehicle if it slips when you are working, so unable to get outof the way sharpish, it will give you a right 'twatting' on the way down. Always make sure the handle is moved through it's full arc before releasing it to avoid the drinking through a straw syndrome. I managed to catch mine but it didn't do much for my right hand grip for a few weeks!
landy 110 (in bits) Landy 101 ambie (in not so many bits) Daihatsu fourtrack (not in bits) www.plymouth-dakar.com |
Did Alg once and Belgium to cape town last year. Never got the high-lift of. Had to bolt it down once again because someone tried to nick it.
Same as with sand plates. It's heavy, clumsy to stow etc, but gives confidence. For working on the car I prefer the bottle jack and axle stands, and for changing chocks Roman, I don't use a jack at all. Just unbolt, take out, slip in thighten nuts and done. ;-) Rob |
Other high travel option from the US:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...=14544&R=14544 http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...=19798&R=19798 http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...=19797&R=19797 ------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. Coordinates Converter – Lat/Long <-> UTM Conversion Tool. |
We have a hi-lift and a bottle jack, and use the latter for most things. When a hi-lift jack gets muddy, the mechanism gets jammed up. They pinch you and try to break your face and drop your vehicle onto you, and they are heavy and awkward and rattle.
But if you need a hi-lift, a bottle jack won't do. The problem with any jack other than a hi-lift is that they either don't get low enough to fit underneath (the long-ram bottle jacks would be hopeless in most bogged-down situations), or they don't have enough lifting range. I have used hi-lifts in just enough situations to feel uncomfotable travelling without one. My 2p worth... Michael www.expeditionoverland.com [This message has been edited by SandyM (edited 22 January 2005).] |
Carry both - the bottle takes up a little room and is much quicker to use - until you have no under axle clearance - then its time for the hi lift.
The Jackall is a bit better made IMHO - to stop a 'runaway jack' tie the handle to the rack in the vertical position with a short bungee or chord. To store, so it actually works when you need it - A light spray of wd40 then clingfilm it top to bottom before putting in a decent canvas bag - if you live in the nice soggy UK try putting in a silica dessicant bag or 2 - ones that you get with electrical appliance packing in with it - they absorb moisture a treat. Takes a few minutes - but its easier than stripping and cleaning the corrosion/sand from the rack and mechanism when you are up to your axles and its raining..... ------------------ Ex RAF Regt, Ex Dragoman, LRE Instructor, LR 90 300 Tdi Overlander Suzuki DR650 Overlander ..and Bloody Nice Bloke! |
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Regards, Michael |
Try http://www.equip-raid.fr/resultats.p...e_catalogue=91 and get the credit card ready, ouch!
My Jackall is more often used to wrestle Mich XZLs off the rim (is it me or are they really, really tight?) I can see the theoretical advantage of lifting a car right up, slipping a sand ladder under a tyre and then lowering the car onto it but I've never needed to. IMHO a good hydraulic jack is essential for overlanding (repairs etc.) but I was happy to have the reassurance of the Jackall; it's heavy to have both though. |
Thanks, Luke.
Not much of a hi-lift jack, for your 600 Euros, is it? Less than 2ft of lift, and a 2-ton maximum capacity, as far as I can see. And at 18kg it's no lightweight either. I don't really see why it would be ANYT better than a fully mechanical hi-lift. (I thought the big advantage of a hydraulic version would be that it would be proof against dirt, like a bottle jack). Still, it's a nice idea http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif Michael... |
Except for the very high price, the hydro jack isn't that bad. The one I saw was 1 meter high (3 feet) which is only a few centimeters shorter than the shortest hi-lift and the 2 ton capacity is only 1/3 ton less than that of the hi-lift. So I think it would be good for the physically challenged as its much easier to use. Having said that, I wouldn't pay that much money for it http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif.
------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. Coordinates Converter – Lat/Long <-> UTM Conversion Tool. |
On the subject of lifting from low height when working on my 101 (hapily not under it) the ground gave way under one axle stand, the others all gave way under the strain along with two bottle jacks and the 3 ton vehicle ended up sat on its diffs on my mum and dads drive. Spectacu;lar and potentially lethal.
The only jack I could get under the bumpers to start lifting it back up agin was the highlift. Took two of us 2 hours!! lesson is leave some wheels on the motor. It had been on the stands for 2 months with no probs, possibly caused by recent heavy rain. Also sometimes only a highlift will do. andy landy 101fc camper daihatsu fourtrack landy 110 |
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------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. Coordinates Converter – Lat/Long <-> UTM Conversion Tool. |
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M... |
I can't tell you why in scientific terms, but the longer the track the less it's load capacity. At least that what the hi-lift guys are recommending in their documentation. The full carrying capacity is only at 48”.
------------------ A.B. OasisPhoto.com – Images from the Magical Sahara. ShortWheelbase.com – Jeep preparations. Coordinates Converter – Lat/Long <-> UTM Conversion Tool. |
The loss of load capacity with height is to do with a horrible formula (invented by Euler) used to calculate which way a beam will buckle as a function of length and load. The manufacturers don't say it but below the 48" the jack will take proportionally more load, up to the point where there's no beam exposed (a useless position) where the load capacity is limited by the shear limit on the pins (around 15 tonnes).
To cover themselves, most manufacturers put a safety factor of around 5 on their products; I've used my Jackall on the rear end of the chassis rail to lift my 5T camper when the bottle jack dissappeared into some dodgy tarmac while changing a wheel in France... Right at the top of the beam! It was scary and waved around a lot because the other side was almost off the ground but it worked. Sorry, I spend a lot of my working life fighting with buckling theory. |
Intuitively, it makes sense that the track is more prone to buckling when the load and the fulcrum are far apart. And practically, anyone who has bent the track of their hi-lift will notice that it happened near full stretch.
However, that issue is almost entirely a function of the track construction, rather than the ratcheting mechanism (unless the mechanism does something strange). That being the case, it would seem that mechanical and hydraulic versions would be on an even footing regarding the maximum lift height. In other words, if there is a drop-off in capacity related to lift height, it should be similar for both versions. I have to say that I can't see from the catalogue picture any reason why the track construction of the Hydro should be any flimsier than that of the mechanical jacks, which would imply that their lower quoted capacity is due to the mechanism. If I win the lottery, I'll order one and give a full report! http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif Incidentally, I assume that the capacities quoted for conventional hi-lift jacks are based on ideal conditions. In real life circumstances, my Jackall and Hi-Lifts have all struggled to lift one end of a loaded vehicle (bearing, say, 2.5 tonnes out of a total of 3.5?), bowing the track visibly, even along the tall I-beam axis. (Swinging with all my weight on the handle seems contrary to good H&S practice too). I'm not sure I'd have the bottle to put 3600kg on it! Regards, Michael... www.expeditionoverland.com |
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Looks as though there's a 60" version available too. ------------------ Mark |
It's been done but from a safety point of view better not to get more than one corner off the ground at once.
My Jackall has had the back end of my 5T Iveco off the ground, took myself and three Ghanans swinging on the handle though (from UNDERNEATH the handle for safety reasons) The garage didn't have a decent trolley jack; we lowered it onto a couple of engine blocks to do the work though http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/ubb/smile.gif Strong jacks allright, but I'd have got by without one. L |
Hi !!!
Today I had an idea about lifting vehicles , with the convenience /versatility of a hi-lift and the easenes /safety of hydraulic gear : BODYWORK HYDRAULIC KITS !!!! Not sure how they are call in English. They are just a hydraulic set , with the lever operated -pupm linked to the hydraulic piston via a 3-feet flexible hose. (no need to be Under the vehicle any more) . The piston comes with an assortment of 1/2feet , 1feet , 1.5 feet , 2 feet , 3 feet extension bars - so all lifting ranges are covered- ,etc.. , a nice wide base , and an assortment of "endings" (sphere , flat , big flat base , etc) , It is intended to panel beaters to straighten-up bent bodyshells , but -to my surprise- I have used it to lift my 5 ton truck with the utmost easeness !!!. As the piston is telescopic , any jacking length (up to 6 feet!) can be atained ! . The piston itselfs moves around 1.5 feet. The whole thing is rated 10 (Ten !!) tones ... and Its sold in most of europe for about 100 Euros (so in UK should be around 200 !! ). Pros : 1 Cheap! 2 Really easy to action .Anyone could lift a 10 Tonner with this. 3 As the pump is remote , there's no need to pump near/under the vehicle. 4 There's not that Hilift kickback thing when lowering . 5 Instead ,lowering is as easy as turning a knob. 6 as the set comes with telescopic extension , jacking lenghts of up to 3 (5?) feet can be done 7 The usefull movement is of not less than 1.5 feet (not that bad ,probbably same as usefull range in hilifts 8 the whole set comes in a nice box , packed , and is much frienlier to use than hilifts And that is . Oppinions ? Javier. (Madrid_Capetown). |
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I can't see how you'd get it to fit under the vehicle when you're down to the door sills in mud. Single-stage hydraulic rams all create this problem - they are either too long to fit under when the vehicle is bogged down, or they are not long enough to lift high enough. So a 300mm jack (or piston) needs a minimum 300mm of space under the jacking point, and then raises the vehicle by a maximum of 300mm. A longer jack gives more lift, but needs more space.
Multi-stage hydraulics (pistons within pistons) might partially get around this problem in principle, but they start getting pretty vulnerable in lots of ways, and there are snags with the variable pumping ratio. I like the thinking, though - for bigger trucks, what about using the hydraulic stabilisers they use on cranes? If one mounted suitable brackets on all four corners of the truck, one could use a pintle to position the ram as low as necessary, and then get a full piston-height worth of lift. Rams don't generally like any sideways forces, so that might be a problem in real-life situations... Luke or someone will give a bottle of Champagne for the most elegant solution Travel safely, Michael... |
somewhat delayed answer to the question as I've been away, 'what kind of ground was it?' it was concrete but the foot of the stand was only about 2 inch from the edge of the concrete which crumbled. Lifting a 3 tonne 101 ambie on a high lift is bloody hard work and, as has been said, putting that much effort in seems poor H&S practice as the whole thing becomes rather unstable
toyota landcruiser landrover 101 ford escort and morris minor traveller!! |
Both have their strenght and weakness. I live in a very rural mountain area where people own 4x4 to use, not as a status symbol. I ran into a guy that uses his hilift all the time to pull out his vehicles. If your going into the wilds be prepared and carry both along with a shovel, chain and possably an axe depending on where you are.You don't need a lot of fancy equiptment, but some basic tools and know how to use them. Practice hooking up your vehicle and pull it a litle from the front, rear and sides before you need to. That way you will know where to hook into your frame from all points. Also you will know if you are missing anything you need like shakels etc.
------------------ John |
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