Automatic v Manual Transmission
 

I am currently looking to buy a 4x4 to do a trip through africa in. I wa wondering if anyone could give me anymore info on the pros and cons of manual v automatic transmission for such a trip.

Also would a Nissan Patrol be a close equivalent to a toyota landcruiser?

Hi Patrick,
Welcome to the HUBB,

Pros of Auto:
-less stress on engine and drivetrain.

-no clutch to wear out.

-very good in sand/snow/ice/slippy mud with a smoother torque delivery and quicker gearchanges (Vs time with clutch disengeged and foot off throttle -vehicle losing momentum) = less wheelspin/bogging - especially pulling away.

-will climb hills/dunes better beceause of this.

-will always be in correct gear for the vehicles speed.

- very quick to change from D to R - to rock the vehicle out if bogged.

-The latest tiptronic (or equivilent) are excellent- best of both worlds

- great in stop start traffic !

-more relaxing but less involved driving.


Cons Of Auto:
-auto gearbox is heavier, more complicated, are generally more expensive, they are harder to field repair.

-auto boxes run hotter due to torque converter especially under heavy load - a gearbox oil cooler is a good idea if not already fitted.

- poor engine braking on steep decents -worst combo is auto/petrol engine - best combo is manual/diesel engine - not so relevant in sand as you have to use a higher gear and light throttle on the back of steep dunes - but in rock and steep muddy decents its a big disadvantage - you move a lot faster - and as you brake there is a risk of sliding. A manual/diesel gives amazing slow speed control without use of the brakes.

- increased fuel consumption, again due to losses withing the torque converter

-slower acceleration and overtaking - though with a larger engine this is negated.



A diesel auto is a good combo - the better fuel consumption of the diesel helping to minimise the losses of the auto box, I would definitley consider one for a trip.

As for TLC/Patrol - for me the TLC is hard to beat - a nice VX 4.2 diesel auto is about as good as it gets.

Im sure the guys can think of plenty more......

Cheers
Grif

There is some more points worth remembering about an A/T cars

- you can't jump start an auto
- you can't stall it on ascents
- driving on sand is best done in low range, even though some engines (like 1HD-T) can cope.

Loss of engine breaking on steep descent is up to the engine/gearbox combination. Try LC HDJ80 and you will be surprised how well it can be controlled downhill.

for my 2 pennies worth, as roman said, an auto won't stall, which is also useful when wading if you get stuck or hit an underwater obstruction. if you stall a manual water will hydraulic up the exhaust. (don't think that just because your in Africa you won't see water!)

An auto allows superior low speed manouverability as it won't stall, so is popular with the 'rock climbers' in america

biggest con of autos is you can't choose your gears, even if it has some selectability the 'mum' feature will over-ride this in certain circumstances, so if you want to hold a gear, for example, you can't, the auto will change. personally I find this sufficiently irritating to not use an auto.
the nissan is comparable to toyota in terms of toughness, ability and size and is pretty much as well known in many places, notably west Africa.

TLC H60
Landy 101 Ambie
1968 Morris minor Traveller
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Captain-Mog...3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm

If it had no problems, Auto.
If it did have problems, Manual.
:)

[QUOTE=Roman]There is some more points worth remembering about an A/T cars

- you can't jump start an auto
- you can't stall it on ascents


Roman, Do you mean bump start...... ???

also - you can stall an auto - just come off the gas on a steep ascent and let it roll back at tickover in D....it will stall......unless your in a New Gen Rangie which stops you rolling backwards.....though yes, autos are much easier to hold and pull away with on a hill....

Moggy - on the later Rover ZF Autos in low box - if you select 3-2-1 it will stay in that gear till the red line...(but only in low box) also the 'command shift' (tiptronic) on the New LRs means you stay in the gear you select - again and you can easily change on the fly - it does work well...just too much electrical gubbins for me..though the ZF boxes are about the most reliable thing on them !!!

Not sure about the Toyota auto boxes holding the gear though.....

A/T cars
 

Having owned both manual & automatic Patrols, I agree with nearly everything above but would not say that sand is always 'best' done in low range. It depends on the softness of the sand but almost all of my sand driving is in high range and a lot of that can be in 2WD too with correct tyre pressures.

Red one below is automatic.
Dark green is manual.
The BMW is having a rest. :)

Stephan

Stephano,

Without getting too academic, yes perhaps you can do it always, but watch out for auto gearbox temperature. Shifting to low range allows some load to be taken off the A/T by the transfer box.

in auto, select 1, 2, or D. ..
 

Moggy said: biggest con of autos is you can't choose your gears, even if it has some selectability the 'mum' feature will over-ride this in certain circumstances, so if you want to hold a gear, for example, you can't, the auto will change. personally I find this sufficiently irritating to not use an auto.

You can of course just leave the box in 1H or 1L, 2H or 2L or 3H or 3L, with overdrive in or out in 3rd so there is a fair amnount of selectivity available. With practice and the help of a passenger you can change between H and L pretty quickly. If you find the box keeps chan ging up a gear, just set it back one notch.

Moggy also said:the nissan is comparable to toyota in terms of toughness, ability and size and is pretty much as well known in many places, notably west Africa.

Would like this confirmed. Not sure I'd swap my TLC 80 for a Patrol.

thats what I mean about the mum feature, even if you try and over-ride the gearbox, on many the box will over-ride your overide if it doesn't like it, although there are the caveats on certain vehicles as discussed above by gipper, although he does say you can only do this in low box.

my knowledge of the use of nissan patrols is based on travelling in that area (I don't generally pluck my advice out of thin air, although am always willing to be corrected of course if someone knows different!). the question wasn't would you swap your TLC for a Patrol, but does the patrol make a viable alternative, which it does in areas where it is well known. It is not as extensively known as the 'cruiser, so no, I wouldn't swap my H60 for a patrol either, but I did seriously consider buying one before I got the 'cruise for a trip through West Africa as they are considerably cheaper to buy and in the UK more prevalent than pre VX landcruisers.

TLC H60
Landy 101 Ambie
1968 Morris minor Traveller
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Captain-Mog...3aFQ3aSTQQtZkm

Thanks for al the replies, looks like I may be going with the auto nissan then.

Great choice! SWB or LWB? The SWB automatic is fantastic in dunes. Amazingly tough and agile.
Stephan

swap shop
 

By saying I wouldn't swap my 80 for a Patrol, I was endorsing the 80. Better car in every department by a long way and plenty around in the Uk if you look. Also Japanese imports available with auto box and front and rear diff locks as well as centre.

And no, I didn't just pluck this out of the sky - it comes from 20 years ++ living in east africa.

I don't wish to get into a spat about this but I wasn't suggesting that you did pluck your advice out of the sky, this was a reference to the statement you made that you wanted what I had said verified by someone else, which frankly is pretty offensive. I am sure that you are indeed an expert on east africa, but as I made clear in my post, I was refering to west africa as this is where I have travelled. I wouldn't pass comment on other areas unless I knew.

Likewise the question wasn't 'would you swap your landcruiser for a patrol', it was 'does it make a viable alternative', which it does given the caveats I mentioned. It can be a much more cost effective option than a landcruiser in many areas due to the inflated prices landcruisers achieve. we don't have that issue in GB, the differential isn't that great. if it had been maybe I would have gone down the nissan route.

JL I also wanted to comment on your post. With due respect, ‘better car in every department by a long way’ is not that helpful for someone seeking specific advice. Is it lighter? Faster? Cheaper to buy or maintain? Can it carry more passengers or a greater payload? Is it more economical? Can it tow more? Does it have a more comfortable or quieter cab? Or a better A/C?

Undoubtedly, you have an affinity with your Toyota, as I do with my Patrol but I’m happy to second Moggy’s point that a Patrol is a viable alternative to a Land Cruiser.

An owner of a SWB automatic Patrol in the UAE will regularly find phone numbers of potential (local) buyers stuck under the wiper blade. Crossing between the UAE and Oman recently, the border guard inquired about buying the LWB. This is far from the first time. This level of interest in older Patrols is because of their ruggedness and ability in deserts and punishing terrain. It just does not exist here for older Land Cruisers, as excellent as they are too.

Having said that, my friend’s Land Cruiser is outstanding in the sand and the cab is much more refined than mine. [Think: car interior versus truck interior.] All the tour operators in Dubai use Land Cruisers. That level of comfort exists in the newer model Patrols but not mine.

Can anyone confirm what the UN is using in Africa these days?

Stephan

Stephano,

Whatever they can get a better deal on while doing a bulk purchase. Running a fleet operation is little relevant, with one caveat - in a country where the locals run around in Ladas your LC or Patrol will be a bit useless if it breaks down and needs spares.

At the end of they day, if you know your vehicle in and out, maintain it properly, address the known problems, drive with mechanical sympathy - what difference does it make?

Moggy - you said -The nissan is comparable to toyota in terms of toughness, ability and size and is pretty much as well known in many places, notably west Africa.

I said - Would like this confirmed. I did not use the words 'verified by someone else'.

I ask - is this offensive? Not in the least. Just asking a question and trying to make use of the forum to see if someone can support the statement that the Nissan is comparable to Toyota in terms of toughness, ability and size and is pretty much as well known in many places, notably in West Africa. If there is a body of opinion that supports the Nissan over the TLC then it's food for thought for if/when I think about changing cars. Generally speaking, the Patrol seems to be thought of as an alternative to a TLC 60, not an 80.

would like this confirmed means verified by someone else, as for the rest you seem to completely miss the point yet again. It's not about wether the nissan is a better car than the toyota, it's wether it is a viable alternative.
I don't care if you don't think it offensive, I do
I'm too bored by your mindlessness to bother with you anymore!!

Gentlemen, please...........
 

Gents

could we please leave out the derogatory comments and or insults - we are here to enjoy, gather info, pass on info etc, could we please accept, that we all have our own opinions and that sometimes trying to put words down in writing can come across wrong or be misinterpretted.

Thanks

Chris

fair one, I shall return to my usual moderate self!!

Good Lord ! No blood for that. The endless discussion should be between British esthetics and Japanese ethics. The Toy reliability and LR charm. Could they mate and give birth to an ideal vehicle?

Enjoy...

why not, land rovers have mated with most things!!
robin reliant engined 101 anyone?

It's more fun the other way round, ie the V8 in the Reliant ;

Voila !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8s8MqizQUeE

and watch out for Reliant "Starsky and Hutch "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwx4LVa1hro

Hi,

This is true in general, but not so with an HDJ 80 auto trans. Engine braking is very, very good in high and low range.

Hi NCR,
So does an Auto TLC 80 go as slow as a manual TLC80 down a 100% (45degree) slope ? I do not think so........

The bigger the engine cc the better the engine braking - and especially with a large capacity high compression diesel, definitley, I totally agree.

But the weight of the vehicle will always overcome the slip in the torque converter - and make it pick up more speed than a manual gearbox - the engine will still be at near tickover, but the vehicle will run faster on STEEP decents, which was my point.

granted, the TLC has great engine braking - the TLC80 auto is probably better than my manual Defender 90 - on the steep stuff - due to cc

another couple of auto v manual points .....

the manual gearbox vehicle is safer to stop on a slippery decent - all you do is turn the engine off (not engaging the steering lock!) and bring the engine to a stop with gentle progressive footbraking - super smooth and very safe.

with the auto - all you have is the footbrake to stop - not good.

It was mentioned that you can select the gear you want to stay in...
Low 123 or High 123 - this works to limit the gearbox from changing UP - but not DOWN
- so if you want to pull away in 3rd low you cant -(except with LR ZF boxes - unless you know different? - go and try with your toyotas)

If you select 3rd low hold and want to pull away in 3rd - it will step through 1st and 2nd before changing into 3rd often giving you too much torque -especially on slippery terrain, snow, ice, hill starts etc.

This is where a tiptronic box is great you can select 3rd low and it will change into 3rd low and stay there - or if you put it into 2nd high thats the gear it stays in.

As for the high and low range debate - remember theres a lot of overlap betweent he ranges - on a Defender - 5th low is about the same as 3rd high, I spend quite a lot of time in 5th low between dune sections, saves doing a range change up and down and you are always ready with the control and torque of low range if you hit a soft patch or need the engine braking.

I like to drive in the highest gear the vehicle will pull for the conditions - for fuel economy - be it high or low range.

If it cheers anyone up - here in Banff the other day the -40 screenwash in the Disco was freezing up......brrrrr :( ...............but theres lots of snow :)

Hi Y'all. I am not getting into which is better (auto or manual) but just a point of note, on the HDJ80's if you select 2nd (auto) it will pull away in second, not 1st then 2nd. This is really neat!
But I do know that a lot of autos, like Gripper says, go through the gears until they get to the gear you've selected. I think modern autos are much more efficient and do what you want them to do. In fact I believe that it is not possible to buy a new Landcruiser with a manual gearbox!
Anyway, I'm off now to finish the rest of that bottle of wine I started before we took the dog for a walk....

Cheers,
Matt Savage

Matt - Nice one - is that in high or low box - or both ?

Ive often wanted to put a Toyota 4.2 straight six diesel into the Disco and get rid of the rather thirsty V8...maybe I should try and shoehorn a GM Duramax V8 diesel in.....

Hi Gripper. I guess it's hi and low. I've only ever tried it in hi. The gearbox won`t know if the transfer box is in hi or low, so it must work with both.
As for the 4.2 into a Disco, I`ve seen it done with a 110. But I`m a big fan of keeping things simple (ish!). If you want a 4.2 get a Landcruiser!
A friend of mine down the lane has a 6.2 GMC V8 diesel in his SWB 2a! It sounds fantastic, but it was no quicker than my 200 tdi Discovery....
Anyway I`m drifting off subject.
Auto vs Manual... ummmm

Cheers,
Matt

Hi Gipper,

Yes, I think so. Maybe even slower. Have you tried one yet?
In an auto TLC you will only use low range when in great slopes or crossing obstacles slowly, as the car speed, even in D, is very, very slow and the gear changes only occur at about 3000 RPM. For instance I CANT drive in the sand in low range because I cant gain speed and momentum at resonable engine speed...
In a manual TLC, the use of Low Range is mutch more common, even in the sand.

Hi Gipper,

What you say is true, but - again - irrelevant if we are talking of the 4.2 LC. As Matt already said, it is possible to start in second (High or Low). It may be interesting in the ice, but I never used it. The thing is that with an auto the power delivery is so smoth that the need to start in a specific gear doesnt exist. For instance, I dont see a situation where I'd need to start in third in my auto... In fact I never drove in third low! As mentioned before, I can only use low range in the Toyo in (great) slopes or when crossing obstacles slowly.

low 3rd/D
 

I have an auto HDJ81 and have driven in low D quite a lot. With centre and rear diff locks on it is wondefully powerful particularly if you have a heavy right foot. With the front diff lock on, it is even better but only in a straight line - great for getting out of trouble when there are no bends around.

Starting off in low D in my car is fine, but if I want the box to change up, it responds best to a heft boot from the right foot. Once in 3rd, speed and power is excellent.

This auto box is one of the reasons I went for an HDJ81. The thread started with a q re the pros and cons of auto v manual and whether a Patrol is a 'close equivalent to a Toyota Landccruiser'. Chacun a son gout...but as my car has to get me about back here in London traffic and the UK and do the trips I want to do, I went for auto.

Hi NCR,
You have more experience with TLCs than I do - Ive driven a few VXs/80s we had in the Military (hired) -they are very good.
Maybe the TLC is the exception - but every other auto I have ever driven when compared to a manual has this traight of running faster due to the torque converter.........



......Maybe the need to start in a specific gear does not exist for you - but believe me, on the terrain I drive it is a big help - and has got me out of many a bogging - if im working vehicles in tight slippery woodland with very steep slopes, here in the UK or Canada - I need to be in low range for control....and selecting a higher low range gear does work a treat....reducing torque to the wheels...especially on a slippy hill start, a long slippy hill climb or on ice......or soft sand.....when your transmission is hot beceause you are in high range maybe ?
Next time you are climbing something slippy, try a higher, low range gear....you might be suprised how well it works...and if you fail the climb you have the control of low range reverse to bring you back down.....instead of coming backwards in high range.

Im trying to highlight the pros and cons of autos IMO and experieces as per the original question......the torque and power you have in the TLC means you can be 'lazy' with using gears - but is not something that every vehicle has...so making use or the ability to use all the gears IMO is a big advantage.

Hi,

Probably true...I've never offroaded another auto.



The need to start in a specific gear always existed for me when I drove previous owned 4X4s. When off roading, most of the time I used low range and started in 2 or 3, as everyone else. I'm not a "clutch killer" as you pretend. I've never burned a clutch or transmission before and have drived very heavily loaded 4X4s in the Sahara in high temperatures.

When I bought the auto 80 I found that if I used low range as often as before, I'd be revving the car almost to the red zone everytime I needed to change from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 low, as gears only change - in low range - at about 3000 RPM! I thought it wasnt normal and inquired in LC specific forums - as automatic cars are rare in Portugal - and it seems it's not a problem with my driving - as you are insinuating - or my auto box.
The fact is that with my auto 80 I use much less low range then I used before with other cars. Why should I use low range (and stress the engine) if I can use high range without stressing the engine or the gear box??
Other users may have diferent experiences, as stated in an above post.



My transmition isnt hot. In fact it runs very cool - 60ºC most of the time. It heats up if one uses D (high range) in the sand for the reason Matt explains in another thread. That's why you shouldnt drive in D in deep sand (or mud, or snow).
I'm not stressing the transmission using high range (2 or L) in the sand.


I think I said that I use low range when doing slopes (Synonyms: abruptness, bank, bend, bevel, bias, cant, declination, declivity, deflection, descent, deviation, diagonal, downgrade, gradient, hill, inclination, incline, lean, leaning, obliqueness, obliquity, pitch, ramp, rise, rising ground, shelf, skew, steepness, swag, sway, tilt, tip).

And, of course, I use it in mud, rocks, and whenever the situation requires it. My point is I use it less often then before with other previously owned 4X4s.



I believe I mentioned that your observations were true, in general, but not aplicable to every car, namely the 80. Also, the original question mentions Nissan Patrols and Toyota Land Cruisers. I believe the thread owner is interested in the pros and cons of auto Patrols and LCs. I simply stated my experience with an auto Land Cruiser.

And yes, if one drives a land rover, I absolutely agree one must use every trick in the book ;-)

EASY TIGER - Sounds Like your AT Fluid is Boiling over !!!.....I havent accused you of being a 'clutch killer' or that you have a problem with your driving .....so dont bite like a starved piranha ;)

The ONLY trick I used was to winch recover chubby TLCs with my nice light nimble 90.....we'd just driven over the same bit of sand...maybe he had it in the wrong gear ???

Im off for a Beer..why dont you have a nice cold Super Bock and relax....
Grif

This is down to the gearing on the Auto box.

One of the standard 'upgrades' for an 80 is to fit a Centre Diff Lock switch - this will enablle you to engage the centre diff lock in high range.

If you do a further tweak you can also use the switch to disable the centre diff lock in low range (useful for slow towing on tarmac) - there are two ways of doing this, either the 'pin 7 mod' where you disconnect one of the pins on the wires going in to one of the diff lock ECUs or you can simply disconnect one of the connectors on the transfer case.

The second option gives you full manual control over the diff locks as well as it alters the gearing in low range so that the change points are the same as in high range - so basically you no longer need to rev the nuts off the engine in order to change gear.

The Centre Diff Lock switches aren't cheap from Toyota (although you can rip one out of a Rav 4) however it is a mod that it well worth doing.

Hi Julian,

Thanks for the tip. I've already installed a center diff lock switch, and would like different gearing in low range...Where can I found out wich connector we are talking about?

Maybe the TLC owner was following your advise and using first low! ;-)

PS: Piranha was, in fact, my youth nickname ;-)

When I give driving advice I do it when Im at work in the UK.......in these places.....

http://www.lre-malverns.com/

http://www.lre9.com/

maybe youd like to take a course sometime ?

That is a good mod for the TLC CDL - makes it more like the Land Rover..... ;)

I would love to. Maybe when you give a course here, in Portugal.

You will find an electrical connector and wire at the back of the transfer case at approximately 1 o'clock you will see a connector with a yellow and blue/black wire attached.

Disconnect the connector and protect it in a small plastic back with a zip tie around it. You may also want to put some grease into the socket to keep the damp and dirt out of it.

That will give you 100% control of the centre diff lock via the switch as well as improved gearing in low range.

Naaa... the only mod making the LC more like the Land Rover is drilling a hole in the oil sump....
;-)

Im Sure LRE will open an Experience Centre in Portugal in the next few years...


Joke away.....my last trip around WA - 30,000km and 5 months - the only thing that broke on the Defender was the tip the left windscreen wiper.....

As a Brit, (and personally for me) its nice to buy a Land Rover that is made in the UK (good,bad or indifferent as it may be) and support (whats left) of our motor industry....I dont buy anything else.............apart from Austrian and Japanese motorbikes......DOH..........!

...and yes they might be owned by Ford....but LR are helping THEM at the moment........

the bit above about being able to use low ratio without the diff lock is often overlooked and is a good thing in landrovers favour if you do a lot of towing. for difficult or uphill reversing you can engage low ratio even on grippy tarmac and avoid slipping the clutch. This is a trick I have used many times on landies, and miss a lot on other 4x4s, including my TLC H60 which is only a part time 4x4

and before any snappy types jump in I spent many years driving artics so I know how to reverse a trailer!!

THATS JUST SILLY!!!

OH YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!