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Panniers - metalmule v pelican v zega v a.n.other?
hiya folks,
i'm looking for panniers to fit my Super Tenere (XTZ850) i've read loads of the threads on here, but is anyone able to give me a direct comparison of the most common ? pro's & con's etc plastic v alu metalmule v touratech ammo cases & others the bike is being kitted out for a UK -- europe -- India -- africa trip so needs to be able to cope with the usual rough terrain and drops i only have experience of givi plastic and soft luggage on road, neither of which are gonna be suitable for my needs thanks in advance Tony. |
Hi,
I CURRENTLY have the Touratech 41lt Zega's and their rack installed on my bike but I would gladly swap then for the MetalMules becuase they are not that good, so there you go a simple users point of view. If you want more confirmation then see Charles site here Kazakhstan There are a few good pictures near the bottom of what happens to these panniers and remember that these guys are riding the very same type of routes that most of us are going to ride. So Touratech get another one of these I'm afraid :nono: |
Another vote for Metal Mules. I've heard of a few people upgrading from Touratech Zegas to Mules, never heard of anyone going the other way.
Customer Service. Two extremes from Best (Mules) to worst (Touratech). Strength - Mate dropped his bike at 5 mph with Zegas and lids were twisted. Mules are much stronger. Mules are 2mm vs 1.6 mm I think. Downside is slightly increased weight. Repairs - Mules are riveted and can be more easily repaired. Security - Proper locks on Mules not Mickey Mouse catches on Zegas. Mounting - Simple, quick and secure system on Mules. Fiddly system on Zegas. Costs - Mules are more expensive to buy but last a life-time. They can be had anodised or powder coated to prevent markings. I can't recommend Mules highly enough. Last positive is that they make you a nice cup of tea whilst you get them fitted.:) Sid |
Touratech
I am currently using Zegas for my trip between the UK and Oz.
I have had nothing but problems with them, they leak are not dust proof and are far too thin. Mine have twisted and ripped along the line of the frame. If you want my opinion I would remove them from your list of options. Untill Touratech come up with a better product their are far more better made panniers these days. Cheers Jim |
Hi Tony
I am busy looking for panniers for my DR650. I will probably go with the Pelican cases - they look to be well made at a reasonalbe cost even though I have to import them to New Zealand. The contact e-mail address is - info@adventure-motorcycle.com I think they go under the name of 'adventure motorcycles' Peter |
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I can't believe what I am hearing from a Kiwi. There must be a man in a shed somewhere near you who will knock up some panniers for you. Burt Munro will be spinning in his grave. Steve |
after feedback from here and other forums touratech are crossed off the list
i like the caribou boxes, which are just pelican cases with added fitting kit, but they dont do top loading cases so that would mean using standard pelican cases (eg 1440) and making my own mounting system i even enquired about buying just the mounting kits from caribou but was told Quote:
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anyone have any experience of these?
Caja Sahel |
Hepco and becker....Craaaapp!!!
Dont buy hepco and becker!!!!!!!!
They were the only company who could deliver frames for my xl 600. They did not fit! The instructions were in german, there were no pictures, they suck! I had to bolt the top box on to the frame of my bike. Never mind the fact that i paid £150 for the top box mounting frame alone. You dont want to know what i paid for the whole lot!!! CCCCCCCCRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPPPP PPPP!!!! Orrin |
I tried for months to get two sets of Touratechs for my two Transalps and got everything from "we lost the order" to "it will be next month before we can ship them" etc and I finally gave up. I ordered the Mules and they shipped them within a week and are awesome cases. The frames fit perfectly and are STRONG. Cases are strong well-made and spacious even though I went with the narrow 31L ones.
I also took clear adhesive vinyl and lined the insides so they don't turn everything black from the aluminium. |
Hi Steve
I am sure I could find someone to knock up a set of panniers but the cost would not be worth it. Others have tried and by the time you are finished it is cheaper (and easier) to buy ready made. Peter |
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There is a product available (made by Jon Ladd) which might help prevent Zegas tearing around the locking nut. It's here; and, yes, I bought some and they do what they say. I bought my Zega panniers before Metal Mule came on the market. To be fair, they have been fine and stood up to a couple of off-road, low speed drops well. However, if there is ever a next time, I will buy Metal Mule. Touratech customer service is so bad, I will only buy when there is no alternative, e.g. GPS mounts, and even then I will use eBay and avoid that waste of space outfit in Wales. Stephan |
TT ok but steer clear of caja sahel
i have a set of caja sahel panniers sitting at home in the shed. they just didn´t make the team to go travelling. and along with that they cost me GBP500.
why? - within 5000km the welds had begun to split. the boxes are corner-welded which means the inside welds, both front and rear, bear the weight of the loaded panniers. the company claimed that this failure hapened because i had them anodised, a process which exposes the boxes to mild heating, and that the heat had damaged the welds. this despite the fact that they were cracking well before the anidising process. in reality this failure is due to a design fault. with TT panniers, for example, the only welds that bear weight are those holding the base of the box on, a far easier task. - the seals are exposed rubber ones, rather like the ones on car doors, and because of the poor finish and sharp edges in the corners of teh boxes, they were cut to bits in no time. - the aluminium from which they are made is not of high quality. looking at the boxes with a hand lens you can see that the welds themselves are far more stable than the wall material, and in fact it´s at the join between weld and wall that failure has occurred. - the boxes were supplied with an exhaust extension and racks. the racks are of flat steel and seem strong. however i had to hit my original equipment exhaust with a hammer, making a dent about 3mm deep, to allow the racks to fit. this was what the caja sahel manufacturer recommended to me, along with using up to three 1,5mm washers. also, the mount on the supplied exhaust extension did not meet up with the corresponding mount on the rack. by about 20mm, or 3/4''. so i had to weld the extension to my exhaust too. - the mounting bolts are stainless steel. looks good but given that this material is known to be more brittle than mild steel i wonder why bother. - the closure clips on the caja sahel panniers are good. i´m now travelling with TT and they are alright after around 30,000km. they seal, for both dust and water so far, and this despite two (admittedly small) get-offs. i got the inner bags too and find they work well. lined the inside of the panniers with plastic to avoid the oxidisation / discolourisation issue. that said, touratech´s customer service wasn´t too great in australia either. adn the clip closures are easily bent, meaning the lids don´t seem to pull down and seat as well as they should. however they do still seal. i needed to get the TT's in a hurry after my disastrous experience with caja sahel, and with more time would probably have got metal mules instead. thankfully, the only sign left on my bike of my experience with caja sahel is the dented exhaust. the panniers themselves are in storage in australia. anyone want them? cheers, andy. |
Panniers
Well, if it is of any use, four bikers were sitting under the Syrian stars the other night and as biker nerds are wont to do, we started comparing pannier systems.
King of Sark had the Metal Mules, great feedback as stated previously by others. Strong, not easily bent out of shape and great attachment system and closing mechanism. Strong enough to prop the bike on the middle of the cases while taking the back tire off and not think twice about bending it. Prince of Mince had the Touratechs along with his better half and thumbs down. Thin, not dust proof and after one crash they are bent out of square never to return again. They have taken to carrying around a rubber mallet to beat the panniers into shape. Quite useful really, they used the mallet on tent pegs and no doubt could be used in a pinch on some relentless touts in Africa. I have the Caribou system, the Pelican boxes are great, very strong on dumps and crashes. The Caribou racks are great as well but the attachment system of the boxes is a bit weak for around the world travel IMHO. After a couple of low speed dumps messing around in the sand in Jordan, the attachment swivel bends and has to be bent back into shape otherwise the bag isn't tight against the frame and rattles. It is very convenient for taking the bag on and off but probably is better suited for on road trips. I would use the Pelicans again in a second, you can buy the Caribou bags only which have a lock and inner straps inserted. I would use these with a standard attachment system from somebody like Happy Trails or even the Touratech one. The Pelicans used are the 1550s. Side loading and you can get quite a bit in them (30L?) but the best way to do that is to take them off and load it when it is sitting like a suitcase. Too much cramming when it is on the bike and you get a bulge which makes it hard to close. Hope that helps. |
yeh thnx guys :)
those posts (& a chat with the vendors at NEC show) have settled my mind on Metal Mules :thumbup1: |
The thing is...the metal mule setup comes in at about £750 +more if you want anodizing etc.
The TT option is coming in from a couple of online webdeals at £480. Thats a whole lot more money |
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Take a look at Tesch boxes & racks Boxes range between175 & 190 Euros ant the racks around the 350 euro mark. Thats around 730 Euro. They are strong as old boots and the frame is super strong. Globetrott Zentrale Bernd Tesch John |
Metal Mules
My 5 cents worth is my (second hand) MM's are really well built, far sturdier than TT's. Not as "nice" though but who cares? I bought them off a guy in Brisbane who had taken 2 dirt bikes with them from UK across Russia to China. He swore by them. I'm using the original BMW mounts which are OK so far (on my RTW to the supermarket). I scrounged a new set of decals off MM who responded immediately by air mail. Says something.
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Why not soft?
Hey guys,
I have Zega's on one bike and Jesse on another, pity that the bike I have the Zega's on is the one that I am riding in Africa at present. Yes you are all right the Zega is not a good system and just doesn't cut the mustard for the price! Jesse on the other hand is much better and I swear by these panniers. Good strong boxes, great non protrusive mounting system and they carry 50 lts (so is claimed anyway). If you look at them you can do what I did and put a false Alu floor in them just above the bevels and cut a small door in the back and can then use this area for tools, parts tent pegs etc. That keeps all the weight low. Great system, I say. The bike with the Zega system is going to get a make over in a cpl weeks and I am going to put some soft luggage on it. I have been looking at and have seen the Andy Stapz canvas bags Andy Strapz Home Page and this looks the ducks nuts. Light strong, dustproof, warer proof and east to take on and off. I did meet a guy in Nairobi who is using it and says it is great. You can just slip a couple of poly bread boards inside them and you will have hard luggage anyway for a lot lighter system. OK, just my 2 bobs worth. Stephan, if you buy from TT get straight from the factory in Germany. My stuff took only 2 weeks to Muscat. Cheers Ivan |
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I've also bought some Andy Stapz bags ready for the next trip. I think I showed you them when you were in Sharjah. As you say, they are well made and a whole lot lighter. Stay safe. Stephan PS You've still got a jacket at my house. :) |
Hhhhmmmm
Hey people just read this thread. I have used givi e36 boxes on a purpose built rack on my drm 650 for the last 10 000 odd km's living in New Zealand they get loads of use on bumpy corrigated gravel tracks have been thrown down the road a few times and they are bomb proof and so easy to use taking on and off
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hhhmmmm 2
Thats a dr 650 don't know what a drm 650 is!! Sorry got called away. I travelled from the uk to here with metal boxes on my dommie and the joy of now having totally light weight totally water proof boxes that come on and off in seconds is great. You can even use them to wedge under the bike for taking wheels off. The other good thing is that you attract a lot less attention. It used to drive me nuts that everytime someone saw my big rtw metal boxes they would think I was mr star wars bloke now I can just blend in better. Anyhow I hope they will be alright because they leave for a year in S America very soon.
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Vern's world beater panniers
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I don't know if he's fitted these to a XTZ before but Vern is a very industrious sort, who can make you something for the job, and beautifully finished. The panniers are ridiculuously tough and well built: hand made to order. The have strong clasps and hinges and are angled at the base to aid with any nasty muddy terrain that would trap square panniers. For the price these are way superior to Touratech IMO, having seen both. Have a look. ::::.ProjectVND.com.:::: The silver GS in the bottom three pics on the picture gallery was (now RIP thanks to blind driver) mine ...yes... including the one on it side.... |
Im travelling with mules at the moment...
I recently had a 70mph crash and my left mule, although dented looking a bit rough, is still in one piece and im still travelling. It took the full forc of the crash, was ripped off and thrown down the road. Its soo tough and thick that I cant get it square again without the use of a workshop. The brilliant guys at MM in the UK had already sorted me out with the new fixings and rivits... I can still close it and travel with it too !! Because the mules are rivetted, you can take them apart, knock them flat and re-rivet them !! The Touratech Zegas would of been abliterated and btw, the TT boxes are thin enough to open with a tin opener !! :thumbdown: pics of my mules here !! before and after lol Touring Ted » Crash near Viedma |
More on the Zega panniers...
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On the Zega panniers, they are probably great for collecting the groceries, but if you expect your bike to fall over at some stage in its life, they just don't stack up. Moto Maiden's Zega panniers are closer to oblong than rectanguar, and are now sporting a second layer of auminium struts and supports - almost a second skin. We are thinking about balsa wood for the next trip. Mountain Man's 2 suitcase system would - in addition to the above benefits - look fantastic in high-powered business meetings. Something to think about.:cool4: cheery o Gareth and Helen |
It pains me to say it
but the panniers from KLr650.com can't be beat for the price. I have them on an old DR that has taken its share of spills over the last year and 20k miles and they have held up better than any others I have seen.
Why it pains me? They are clear knock offs of happy trails boxes but for $293. delivered they can't be beat. I didn't use and specific mount, just bolted them to my frames. I made the rack from square tube for a cost of about $36 and a couple days of welding. Since this was my first ever intro to welding I would imagine someone that knew what they were doing could bang out a similar project in a matter of hours. The whole set up is now well tested and for a total of $330 US ya just can't touch it--- |
Panniers
Hi Guys
I am looking to fit panniers as well and have been looking at these HATTECH has any one had any experience with these Hattech panniers. they look solid and spacious and are 2mm thick the same as the mule cheers |
What about Jesse?
Guy's I am in the process of kitting out my bike in the US & was wondering what the feedback on Jesse panniers was? I will be in Phoenix soon & as they are a local firm some friends & ofcourse a local dealer have recommeded them & a bike that I am looking at buying is also fitted with them.
Have seen Ted's snaps & would go for MM just for the added protection! I might need it! Cheers Mojo |
What about Overland Solutions? They do heavy, but rock-solid pannier systems. I toyed with the idea of going for Metal Mule but I don't like the fact that their pannier lids don't come off. Also, they open from the inside. So if I got a tent/luggage bag strapped to the top, I'd always have to push this out of the way before opening the pannier.
From what I've heard and seen (Ewan & Charlie), Touratech panniers won't last too long after a few offs. The aluminium's just a bit too thin. Bjorn |
i thought overland solutions were just modified zegas?
i contacted vern at projectvnd and he's a too busy at the moment with moving house&workshop and back orders looks like its MM then leaving date set at 30th Aug :) |
Im using mules on my XT600E in South America at the moment and I have given them a PROPER test involving high and low speed crashes and small drops and spills on a regular basis :innocent:
Now I love the mules. They are thick, strong with decent locks and great workmanship...The fitting system is fast and strong too. BUT....I have discovered a couple of negatives due to some small drops and the odd crash.. This may not be a problem for the fancy BMW´s outside the pub, but when overlanding, its a big deal... The mules fitting system is ingenious and quick but also very intricate and complicated when things go wrong. When you crash or drop the bike, the fittings rip out of the box, break easily and twist etc. This makes it VERY hard to get them straight again and difficult to align the fittings to the frame in order to secure the box. The way the box is locked to the frame requires the whole system to be operating perfectly without dints and bends... ratchet straps ARE required if you do any damage to the locking system. (although true with many systems in fairness) I also find the boxes TOO strong. As in impossible to straighten after a crash. They are soo thick and well made that I cant get mine straight again after a small spill. I have been literally jumping and boucing on them to get them straight will no luck.. The possitive side is that they are rivitted so that i can drill all the riveits out, knock the panels straight individually and then rivet them back together. Time consuming and specialst tools required but at least doable. A welded system would be more hassel. Im by no means slagging them off, I just like to offer a fair perspective relavent to my experiences. To summerise... The boxes are fantastic but the fitting mechanism needs to be more robust. Metal mule customer service is by far the best though. They will help you whereever they can. |
In my light use so far, the TT's have seemed fairly capable, I particularly like the mounting systems' simplicity. My bike hasn't been droppped (yet) though, so who knows how well they'll stand up to that. If I take them RTW, I'll be able to answer that question before we reach Calais, so I'll get back to you on that one!
BUT - one thing really grips my s**t. They are an absolute pain to lug around when full, because there is no central handle anywhere, the only ways to carry them are by the bottom in a 'baby carry' or by the bungee points. Obviously neither is very easy, a central handle would make things a lot easier. I believe MMs have them. I'm still not one hundred percent convinced I'll take the TTs, that's why I'm testing them around the UK, before I get half a continent away, then find out I don't like them! Happy Riding Joel |
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Im almost certain they will send you some for a few quid.. |
We've got the side handles on our MM's. Worth their weight in gold and very strong. Go for all the optional extras you can on the MM's including rubber feet.
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For safety reasons I always secure them additionally with a strap, which I use instead of the central handle by threading the straps through the metal loops on the lid. The mounting system is robust and plain forward, BUT after thousands of kms the bolts oxidise and it's a pain in the bum to get the panniers fitting tightly aginst the rack. This is where I envy the MM guys. Hans |
Im thinking of changing the fitting system on my MM´s.
As I undertand, the metal mules rack uses the ovals from Touratech. Meaning, metal mules should fit a touratech rack so a metal mule rack should accomodate touratech fitting system... Sooo, im considering using the touratech fitting system on my metal mules and abondoning the Metal Mule system.. It seems much stronger and simple meaning it can be bent and battered back into shape if required. The MM system, fast and ingenious as it is, is far too fragile and complicated for serious overlanding if (or should I say WHEN) topples occur... :( P.S Obviously this is just MY opionion. |
Has anyone used the Hepco alu panniers? I've seen the eailer post about the frame not fitting a XT (?) but nothing about the panniers themselves
I saw some at the bike show on the weekend and they seem quite solid i laid them on the side and took the lid off and stood on them ( with the rep watching) and they were solid as a rock. The rep said the only weak point is the lock mech that holds it on to the rack. In a bad crash at the most it would pop the pannier off and maybe break the lock mech. which he recomended taking a spare (they just revit back on. light small and cheap of couse who carries a revit gun?!) doesn't sound too bad?? I would think that if was any more solid you'd be damaging the frame and the bike frame?? The pannier it self seemed very good though, and a lot cheaper than the MM which yes you get what you pay for but if you can't afford it you can't afford it. And there seamed to be a lot of Hepco racks on ebay etc ( as i understand it the rack is the same for the plastic boxes etc) so perhaps a good low cost option? |
BMW Pannier
Hi,
Have you tested the BMW panniers. Those come in option with the 12 GSA ? Damien |
'Give Metal Mule a call. They have an optional extra on theres of side carrying handles. These are sprung so they sit flat when riding. They are simply rivited on.. Very easy, very strong, very useful.'
Thanks for that. I had a look at their site, and they look good - but after looking, I was thinking rather than pay through the nose, I might try and fabricate some of my own, doesn't seem too hard. *Joel touches wood* 'For safety reasons I always secure them additionally with a strap, which I use instead of the central handle by threading the straps through the metal loops on the lid.' Good advice - if I take the TTs I will do this. Also a cheap ingenious way of carrying them. A 2 quid ratchet strap seems like a good investment to both stop your pants being strewn down the piste, and allow an easy carry. I am that cool that I've been carrying my adventure kit at all times with me in the UK to test the luggage system and get used to the weight. I am even so cool that after a while testing this, I am going to try throwovers and see how I get on with them. I am such a hardcore Rock and Roll adventurer. I bet Jim Morrison and Bob Fulton Jnr are looking down on me with envy. Happy Riding Joel |
Opinions opinions!
Is it just me, or do most people seem to be ofering opinions on panniers whilst only having experienced one brand? Just to offer my experiences, between us my wife and I have zega boxes and offtheroad boxes (similar to Daerr boxes). They have done approx 45000 miles of tough going each. The zegas do not leak, are not coming apart and still do the job-as are the others which were a lot cheaper. They have been underneath the bike as stands, and underneath the bike in unplanned get offs. My offtheroad boxes have nice carrying handles and robust quick release system and cost me 499 euros for two boxes, mounts, rack and rear carrier rack in 20mm tube with solid rear crossbrace (I think the only reason they are remove able on other brands is for ease of shipping).
I am not saying that metal mules are not the best, but who is to say that any pannier will stand up to some of the crashes described in this forum. Friends of mine have pelican cases, strong and waterproof, but hard to pack and heavy. Other people I have met on my travels had the BMW alloy looking adventure cases and summed them up to me in one word, "Crap". Apparently the hinges snap first, closely followed by everthing else. In conclusion, go with you gut feeling and your wallet, and try not to crash! |
Metal mule's website
Is it just me?, I've been trying to order off MM's website, tried several times over the past few weeks, can't access their price list, and get a string of errors in their order process.
Yes, I know most people will say 'phone them', but their website is the first contact point for most people, and I'm getting no reply to email either. Doesn't inspire confidence.... |
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I had some problems ordering some spares, the site ran very slowly, some pages did not work. I never followed it up as it was not impotant. Try emailing them, service levels are pretty good, as is the product. Steve |
TT mounts
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Ted- another point to consider when using the TT fitting system: For safety reasons you should strengthen the fixture with an additional alloy plate insite the box. Something similar to this: Touratech UK Webshop But the price is a rip off :-( So just make your own. Hans |
Metal Mule Destruction Test
I've just got back from a trip UK 2 South Africa and I honestly have tested my MULES to destruction! I crashed numerous times in sand, tarmac and mud incl a fast sand crash that popped the left mule off it's rack and bent the pannier badly off-square. I just adjusted the grabmechanism and it went back on securely.
I also crashed in Angola, twice heavily and one of those involved a collision with a scooter out on the piste. Both times the same mule got ripped off and both times it could be reattached without extra bits or welding. The rack is another story. The R&D on the racks varies enormously between say a BMW and Africa Twin. The quality is the same good standard but the position of the transverse support that goes around the rear wheel is different and can compromise the strength of the rack. Mine broke and I can clearly see why from what is being asked of the Africa Twin one. ANSWER: Yes, I would buy METAL MULE again. The panniers are brilliant. The attachment system is EXCELLENT. The rack varies but just looking at it tells me how I can strengthen mine for my next trip - I'll keep it.:thumbup1: |
Has anyone tried the KTM boxes?
The KTM alu boxes (KTM KOFFERTRÄGERSYSTEM) look good in the catalogue, but no-one on here seems to mention them - has anyone tried them, and if so, are they any good?
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This is the Touratech system. When I had my 640 a few years back you could not buy these from TT, had to buy them via KTM UK. The boxes are 1.5 mm and while are well designed, locks and lid seals are good. the mounting arrangement is poor, takes up to much room inside the box and after the paint wears off the rack there is no way to take up the extra clearence. Both my boxes leaked around the bases. The rack broke a couple of times, and had to be welded, not crash damage just bad roads. Overall 6 / 10 form over function Steve |
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Touratech UK Webshop I will fit TT rack and depending how this thread goes MM panniers. Metal Mule are releasing a Version 2 in March with small improvements to mounts. |
I'd recommend Andy Strapz soft panniers. Worked well for me, no welding required after a tumble and I think a lot of the people I travelled with who had hard luggage would go with them next time. :thumbup1:
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Just a question:
Has anyone just fitted their alupanniers with relatively thin stainless steel nuts and bolts? The idea is that you dont take the panniers off (have an insert bag or something) and if you crash the nuts will break off and afterwards you just put in some new ones? This would minimize damage to pannier, rack and you. Downside is that you can't easily take the panniers off. What do ppl think? |
It all depends on how many bolts you intend on using and where you place them.
A smaller bolt will obviously break before a fat one but i guess 4 smaller bolts half the size of 2 larger bolts will spread the load more evenly. In my experience, the fixings tend to rip out of the softer aluminium box rather than the steel frame so a smaller but will cause less damage. If you never intend of removing your boxes then 16 well placed smaller bolts would be stronger 4 fat ones. Just take into consideration that you may HAVE to remove your boxes at times to squeeze through pay booths, car parks and hotel front doors :cool4: Quote:
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Hepco&Becker Junior set
Hey,
I followed this thread quite a wile because I want to buy new panniers. My main question of choice is, like Toneski (Tony): plastic vs alu. Most contributions to this thread are about different manufacturers of alu panniers but not about alu vs plastic. Well, I had experiences with the "plastic" panniers of Hepco&Becker, the "junior" set. I used them on my BMW F650 in 2001 for 8 month traveling in the Middle East and in 2004/2005 for 18 month traveling around the world. I was very satisfied with these panniers. They are light in weight, have a side lid in stead of a top lid, are easy to mount and strong. Their best feature however is the slightly curfed lid. Because of this, the pannier doesn't dig in the surface in case of accident. It is the digging in that causes most of the damage. I just have one point of critic. Once I dropped the bike and a sharp stone just hit the edge of the lid of one of the panniers. Just on that spot the pannier leaked a little bit and I cann't repair this damage. With this experience I don't know why I should opt for alu panniers, keeping in mind all the stories about deformed or torn apart alu panniers in this thread. Anyone who has an argument alu panniers above "plastic" panniers? Like to hear it! Good travels, Mart |
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