Spent last night in my conservatory !
 

Nope I didnt get kicked out of bed !

Decided to use the cold spell to try out my sleeping arrangements

I switched off the heating and it was about 8 deg C when I went to sleep.

Using
Blacks down Quantum 500 (rated 3 seasons)
Silk liner
standard box blow up air bed

Wearing, merino wool long johns, long sleeve north face tech shirt (underlayer), biking socks and a fleece hat for my head :thumbup1:

I was comfortably warm on top of the bag but my underneath was feeling chilly. I lay for 10 minutes thinking that things would warm up under me. This wasnt the case and I grabbed a quilt (my standby heat lol) and placed it underneath me.

I did sleep but im sure I woke up a few times feeling slightly cold.

Normally on my trips (in warmer weather) I just sleep in the buff with just the bag and this is fine, apart from a couple of nights in lower Finland in June last year.

So Im looking for ideas so I can stay warm on colder nights, I have thought about getting a smaller bag and using both.

Throw any ideas at me... Im all ears ?c?

Cheers
Geordie

Get a therma-rest sleeping mat or gain 2 stone like I did. You can't beat natures own insulation! The cold floor just sucks the heat out of you so you need a thermal barrier. I don't know what's inside a Therma-rest but the clue is in the name!

Oh, and do something with your ears as you can loose a lot of heat from them.

Tips
1. We're not interested in you sleeping in the buff. Too much info.
2. Open the conservatory window next time. 8c is like summer.

Joking apart you should have been reasonably OK with a 3 season bag plus liner, though you could try a fleece liner rather than silk.

What did you think was the reason for your heat loss, conduction or radiation? Maybe a camping/climbing shop will offer the best advice.

Tim

@Flyingdoctor
I was sleeping on a box air bed (used it for years without feeling the cold).
Im not sure about thermarest's they just dont look comfortable :confused1:

@Tim
I did think about opening the windows lol. Ive got a fleece liner but its bulky ish. Im trying to think how to keep the overall pac size down.
I did think about putting a space blanket on the bed to help with the insulation.
As for camp shops, I would rather take the advice from people on this forum mate rather than ask some shop assistants who would sell you anything just to make a sale.

Cheers
Geordie

im with you mate, i cant get on with thermarest and the like either, airbed for me too.

but as youve found the airgap underneath lets the cold in, or the heat out whatever. what you need is one of those silver space blankets to go between your bag and the mattress. they reflect the heat back at you.

get them from most camping stores or ebay probably, or get a free one when you do the london marathon

The space blanket won't insulate (against conduction) it only helps with radiation. See comments at Emergency space blankets must be used correctly

You can read about my experience here, sleeping besides the bike with just a plastic exposure sack.

There's something wrong if you can't hack it at 8c with a sleeping bag. Next time try using the biking gear either on top or underneath you. Or, even better, wearing it.

Tim

You won't get very far with an attitude of "thermarests don't look very comfortable, so why bother?" The fact that you're sleeplessly cold at 8 degrees without any wind, sheltered even from the night sky (i.e., radiational heat loss) means you're doing something drastically wrong. If you want, you can figure out what this is and take corrective action; if not, well, stick to mid-summer.

There are only a couple of significant kinds of heat loss, and all are under your control when camping out: radiational, convective, conductive. I agree with others that the likely culprit is your airbed, which combines lack of insulation against conductive heatloss with encouragement of convective losses. Get rid of it. Go to a good camping store and try out the various thermarests and their imitators. Notice that some are thin and uncomfortable while others are fat and plush. Think about the tradeoffs in weight and expense. Learn about R-values, which measure conductive heat loss. Make an informed decision.

Following this you can play around with changing liner materials, wearing hats to bed, etc. etc. etc. But if you're sleeping cold in a three-season bag indoors at 8 degrees, you need to adjust something more significant than your liner or hat.

Or: stick to mid-summer.

Hope that helps.

Mark

PS: reflective liners are effective only against radiational losses, an entirely different phenomenon. They need to reflect into an airspace to be effective, and for this reason tend not to help much when you're lying on top of them. This being the case, some people like them regardless (and don't mind the crinkling noises, the fact that they rip easily, or drench you in sweat, or get scrunched up uselessly in the corner by morning, or.....) Whatever the case, this will not cure your problem, which (by your description) is clearly related to your fat, useless airbed.

Heat loss was likely from the compressed sleeping bag underneath you. Once compressed there is far less insulation there, try to get a air mat with some insulation. One popular brand in the UK is Exped or Big Agnus.

If you plan on cold weather camping there the way to go. If its only time to time you plan on doing this a wool blanket between you and the air mat will do. In the bag or on the air mat will do. One little hint never sleep in any thing you where in the day you sweat in them and that will chill you all night.

Hi, do walking climbing and biking. Just spent 3 nights out in a tent with temps down to -8.
An air matress cools with the surrounding air/ground temp and is always going to be colder than you where the sleeping bag is compressed at the bottom.

Personally I use a thermorest but you can get slightly bigger and cheaper ones that work. What you need is insulation betweem the ground and sleeping bag or you. Newspaper works well but is noisy

On one really cold night, half deflated the thermorest and put it into the sleeping bag, problem was I had to sleep on my back and snored like a pig all night, I was OK but my mates were not.

Cant cope with staying awake cold so I will stick to my thermorest even if it is not big enough at times.

I can vouch for the therm-a-rest or copy. They do the trick nicely.
You can get three quarter length versions (and different thickness) to save on space but they go pretty small when all the air is squeezed out.

I'd go along with the points everyone else has made - and especially Tim's one about too much info on your sleeping arrangements!

There is one thing though that hasn't been mentioned which is that you need to get used to it.
If your previous night's sleep was in a bed with a mega tog duvet pre warmed by wife /gf / civil partner you're bound to feel cold in the sleeping bag even with all of the add-ons. Stick with it, it'll get easier as your metabolic rate goes up (and if it doesn't you'll get used to surviving on 3hrs sleep a night!)

Hello from Canada. I believe I come from a cold enough climate to qualify. Lots of folks here winter camp and are comfortable. I can guarantee that your problem is that air mattress. I don't like the very thin backpacker self inflating matts either, I have a 2.5 " self inflating matt that is filled with foam. That is what will protect you from the cold. Look around mine was inexpensive but is heavy and bulky. I use it on the bike or car camping. It is certainly not a back packers matt. Hope this helps.

Hi Geordie e
I plan on doing a similar test but will put my tent up in the garden.
I have a snugpac softie 9 which I think is 3 season and have just bought a snugpac fleece liner for £30 its not to bulky, I also use a short thermarest. I asked about army sleeping bags (artic)on another forum and was advised the bag I have with liner should be fine.
I remeber at one of the HU meetings being advised not to use an air bed as you will get cold.
Exped were recomended but I allready have a thermarest so will stick with that
I want to go to the Dragon rally in Wales in Feb so need to sort some good kit.
Will let you know how I get on
I think the main problem for me will be if I get cold on the bike its going to be hard to get warm again before going to bed

Heatloss
 

Hi, if your problem is heat loss, that's one thing. If it's also a matter of cash loss then try Down sleeping bags and down jackets, Alpkit outdoor gear for alpine activities including climbing, camping, mountaineering and trekking Linzi. Cold never killed anyone anyway did it?

Thanks for all the advice and comments

:oops2: for telling you about my normal sleeping habits :blushing:

Iv'e spent 23 years in the Army, so Im used to sleeping rough, cold and dirty ! spent way too many nights in the bottom of a muddy trench :funmeterno:

We used to have a saying "any fool can be uncomfortable" hence my night in the conservatory.
Yes I am normally an early summer type of camper but have only been cold once when I was in Finland.

Im going to have a scout around and try thermarest (but I cant work out why my airbed which ive used for the last 5 years was so cold).

Could it be that the Blacks sleeping bag isnt really a 3 season bag ? Its a down one and Im always careful and store the bag in its storage net.
The top and sides of the bag wasnt cold, just the bottom of the bag.

Well I will try a few more things later this week and see how I get on

Cheers
Geordie

The job of a down bag is to keep your top and sides warm, insulating you from the cold air. It will not keep you warm underneath; that is the job of your sleeping pad, hence all the commentary here. Get a good pad and you'll certainly stay warm in such mild temperatures as are under discussion here.

For real cold (well below zero C) I add a thin closed-cell pad to my usual thermarest. This is a better weight, bulk and warmth combination than a fat thermarest.

enjoy,

Mark

markharf thanks for the advice, will def look at thermarest or copies.

Tim thanks for the links, I missed your one on adv site, cheers :thumbup1:


Cheers
Geordie

I just bagged up my summer gear. Therma-rest 3/4 mat and Softie 3 summer bag.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...h/DSC00347.jpg

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/b...h/DSC00349.jpg

As you can see it's rated down to 0c. I've been below that in it but you do have to wear everything you've got! It's comfortable at around freezing though. I'm no hero I've got a -15c bag too and usually use two mats as well when it's cold.

I've spent times in the bottom of a trench too, cold as a grave!

RE getting cold during the day and warming up in your sleeping bag at night.

Test it at home first but when out in winter I take a metal water bottle, Sigg is a good make, boil some water, put lid on, let it cool for a couple of minutes and put into the bag as a hot water bottle. Wont leak as the water cools it causes a partial vacuum in the bottle. Also gives you water not frozen in the morning to use.

And just in case anyone's not aware... sleeping bags and thermarests should be stored uncompressed and only put into stuffsacks before they are to be transported.

Tim

thermarests dont work for me because i cant sleep on my back and i weigh 140kg, my hips dont like being a ground spike. thats why i use an air bed.

I bagged them up for the photo, they're now relaxing in the front room waiting for the spring!

Thermarest copies
 

Years ago on a Kayaking/Landrover fixing trip to Iceland, most people had Thermarests while one mate had a Sunnacamp copy. Over the 4 weeks it slowly came unglued with a slow creaking noise, turning from a flat object into a perfectly round sausage, despite his best duct-tape repair attempts. It kept us all enourmously amused.

As an aside I think silk liners are worth about a season in terms of sleeping bags (but then I took a Karrimat to Iceland so don't trust my judgement)

Is the floor in your conservatory made from Stone or Concrete, either will suck heat out faster than having your airbed in a tent on dirt.

i keep my bags in the loft in old pillow cases, keeps them clean while not compressing them.

Hi
I keep my bag uncompressed in the cupboard when not in use.

My conservatory floor has laminate wood with fibre board under it.

So the weak link must be the air bed. Ive got a fleece liner Im going to try next (when another cold night is forcasted)

Cheers for all the replys

Cheers
Geordie

Hi,
Just spent another weekend out in -15 centigrades on a winter motorcycle rally. Like it's been said: The air bed sucks the heat out of you, whether it sits on concrete, mud, dirt or on your tent floor. This is one of the times when air does NOT insulate - on the contrary. You can use the air bed for comfort, but you must then add some insulation on top of it. Personally I use a NATO army folding bed, put a thermarest-like mattress on it and add reindeer skin on top of that again. Keeps me warm and comfy in any temperature (my sleeping bag is rated at -35 centigrades). I use a sidecar, so I can transport it all. But the basic is a warm sleeping bag and a top-rated insulating mattress. Oh, and use a wool cap to keep you even warmer.

Thanks Indu

Ive got a NATO camp cot in my garage but its too big for the bike.

Heres the thing with thermarest, ive got 2 disc's in my lower back which are on their way out ! So getting a comfortable sleep is a big thing for me.

I was wondering, who uses a cot type bed with a thermarest ? whats the pack size ?


Cheers
Geordie

What you CAN do is to use this one:

http://www.mammut.ch/images/D-Lux_pu....eps_Zoom.jpeg

- - Mammut

It's a down filled, insulated air mattress that is inflateable to 7,5-10 cm thickness, which should be sufficient for high comfort and warmth. According to the producer Mammut it's 65% smaller than conventional self-filling air mattresses of same size when packed. That should vouch for transportability, insulation and comfort I think.

I use a steel framed camp bed. they cost about £10 ( 9.99 from Argos)
the heat loss is nearly always greatest from the floor because the insulation is compressed and there is little air to insulate. My cure is to take a big sheepskin fleece. I sit on it during the day, and lie on it at night. Is also usefull for an afternoon siesta. I just drop it on the deat and rest it againstthe bag on the dual seat as a kind of back rest. held in place with a bungee rubber or two.

Hi Indu

got any UK links to the Mammut mattress ?

It looks really good

Cheers
Geordie

I'm using a similar system and last time out was too hot to sleep at minus nine outside. The layers are:

Tent with extra ground sheet
Picnic blanket inside
Steel frame bed
Thermarest
MOD Arctic sleeping bag
Wool hat
wool/fibre pyjamas
wool socks.

A couple of things no one has really mentioned:

Change clothes before you sleep. If might feel cold at first, but fibres without skin oils in them work a lot better.

Eat or drink before you sleep. Have something sugarry to hand if you wake up in the night. 4 hours sleep, a biscuit break and another 4 hours is a better night that just the first few hours. Letting off a chemical heat pack at the biscuit break is nice too.

Be careful with alchohol and caffeine. Get ****ed or fill up on coffee and it makes a real difference. Vodka plus gin plus beer plus gluhwein plus something Russian that tasted like beetroot will guarantee about two hours sleep at minus twenty, but the next seven hours are no fun! I don't want to talk about that one :(

Oh, and don't use metal bottles when nature calls in the night, there are some places no one should have frost bite :offtopic:

Andy

it should be, its over a hundred quid! you can get them from mammut stockists, do a search on google

An alternative to the Ajungilak Mammut is the Exped Downmat 7, 7DLX or 9. The number refers to the depth of the air mattress. Like the Mammut, the Downmats are down insulated, with the deluxe having extra down insulation.

The 7 can be found for under £90.

Mike

I have slept in a bus shelter on the wooden seat with a thermarest and my thin down bag that has just a sleeve for the sleeping mat as the base. there was snow all around and i slept well.

I always start with layers of clothing and take them off before i sleep keeping everything in the bag with me mostly around my feet also means they are warm and dry to put on again in the morning.

I sleep with a hat on which means i can take it off to cool down. I always sleep in thermals and wear warm dry socks that cover the ankles and glove liners if its cold to keep the wrists worn.

In a tent in the open I will try to camp so I can bulk up the ground with grass etc, helps insulate me from the ground and increases comfort.

You can also use tealights in the tent to warm the air temp (just be careful)

Ditto the wool blankets under and over.

I still need to try a silk liner.

Consider Bulk/cost etc I want to try and be light and compact but stay warm.
:scooter:

Thanks for all the help guys n girls

going to go round the camp shops at the weekend and then try again :thumbup1:


Cheers
Geordie

Air bed for comfort not insulation.

Some reports of leakage from the very comfortable Exped. New versions available soon.

One top tip, I use the closed cell foam from laminate flooring underlay under the groundsheet of my tent. Makes a serious improvement when sat on the groundsheet and tent is warmer all round. Also helps with older more porous groundsheets. It's cheap, light and very effective. Anyone who has put a laminate floor down is likely to have enough spare.

Next, keep a wide mouth plastic pee bottle (guys), pee without leaving the bag :oops2:(you know what I mean) to keep the heat in. Seal the top of the bottle and get 1 hour hot bottle for your feet.

Blacks and Millets staff are useless. Told one shop assistant in one of their shops in Gateshead Metrocentre that I needed a lightweight tent with a really small pack size to strap on to the back of a motorcycle. Get this, he then tried to sell me one of those crap pop-up tents that fold into a big flat circle. If you need advice on how to score E's at festivals (which I don't), these are the people to speak to but look elsewhere for advice on kit.

I'd given up on the Thermorest and Exped mats as I simply couldn't afford them at the time though they did seem a great idea. Found these completely by accident in a outlet shopping centre.

Millets Trek Self-Inflating Compact Sleeping Mat

This is the compact model which I bought and is the same thickness as the regular one but is about 3/4 length. Pack size is about half the diameter of a traditional Karrimat. It will roll up far smaller than they are displayed in the shop too. I know people will turn their nose up at it as Eurohike are Millets/Blacks own make but it's been on 3 trips with me now and I've never had to open the included repair kit. Can't go wrong for £17.

I've also got a Gelert fleece liner but I also find it too bulky so other suggestions welcome. The tip about taking a hat to wear at night is sound advice.

the hot water bottle is a good idea, fabric conditioner bottle rims are wide and quite hard to miss.

these days i use watertight food bags, with a ziploc. BUT dont forget youve got bags of pee or worse lying around because when you tread on one (always in your socks or barefoot) it goes off like a grenade and your friends dont want schrapnel on their kit.

Is a silk liner any good? There's one here for £11 - 'DD sleeper'.

DD Hammocks - Products

This is one of the times when air does NOT insulate - on the contrary.

Great point Indu - that gets to the bottom of... ... I cant work out why my airbed which ive used for the last 5 years was so cold

It is the material inside the self-inflaters from Mammut, Exped and ThRest, etc which helps slow down the conduction of heat from your body to the ground. It can be closed cells (air bubbles), like in the old karrimat days (which crippled so many of us!), or in self-inflating mats: open cell foam, foam chips or more extravagantly, down (lighter, packs better, over 100 quid!).

Plus a hat.

Ch

They're excellent. Mine came from Lidl at £9.99; it squashes down to about the size of half a cucumber and the extra warmth it provides is unbelievable. It's also good on its own for hot nights. Another benefit is, because it's almost frictionless, you can turn over without tying yourself into knots, as you do with fleece liners.

Regards, Mick

Thanks for all the tips n info

Im tied up at the mo trying to get my local bike club website up and running (tis nearly done, just got a little bit tidying up to do).

Going to look at the mats next week

Cheers
Geordie

Handy thing, fruit and veg. DD says their liner squashes down to the size of an apple.:wink3:

Thanks for the tip on the silk liner. I'll give it a go.

Can remember seeing them in Aldi or Lidl last year. At the time, I thought how could something that packs down so small, be better than the fleece liner. Kicking myself now over why I didn't buy one.

Just got a silk liner from e bay delivered for £10. its not mummy shaped but retangular packs down small and should be good to use on its own. cant remember what co its from dd hamocks i think.

Will try it out with my current set up but am thinking of a snugpak or similar bag for really cold conditions.:scooter:

Space blanket is useful
 

Few times in Patagonia and in Bolivia we were camping and I was bitterly cold, despite down winter sleeping bag, silk liner, thermarest and thermal underwear! On these occasions, I got my space blanket under the thermarest then wrapped myself with it over the sleeping bag. I looked a bit like a giant Xmas cracker but hey!

It does not create heat as such, but keeps the warm air inside and it helped a lot for me, as I felt warm quite quickly and I was able to sleep!