Cold weather camping
 

Visa depending, I'll be in Russia next month, St Petersburg up to Murmansk, then across to Norway and down. It could get chilly. Anyone experience camping in these conditions - and if so, any tips?

I'll have two sleeping bags. A +5C/-8C mummy shape that could go inside a cheap rectangular bag without a lot of squashing. I also have an army bivi bag that would easily take both - this should add several degrees if I need them. Underneath I'll have a self-inflating mat that will go on top of a normal closed-cell sleeping mat. I might actually get another closed-cell mat as my local surplus store is banging them out at £3. I also have a German army blanket, brand new for £12. It was an impulse buy, but it made me feel all toasty just looking at it. I'm driving a car, so it's not a problem bringing it along.

Was thinking of waterproofs, preferably breathable, for tramping around camp in. Already have a thermal base layer (longjohns) a thinsulate wooly hat and thick socks for sleeping in. I'm driving, so not too worried about keeping warm on the road.

Haven't got a tent yet. Well, I do, but it's ya normal dome tent that everyone buys for about £35. It's as new and very stable. I did think about buying something more 'mountainy', but they cost a bloody fortune.

Thanks for reading. All suggestions welcome.

Jeez, how cold are you expecting it to get! :)

I've done a fair bit of cold camping, here in Scotland and in Norway in winter, down to about -20 celsius. A lot of people shy away from camping in cold weather, but actually its fine. It's difficult to advise you how much insulation you'll need without knowing what temperatures you'll face, or how personally resistant to cold you are (it varies considerably). However, it's better to have too much than too little, especially as you are travelling by car. I'd offer the following advice:

You are right about multiple mats. You can lose a lot of heat through contact with the ground. One thermarest and one foam mat should be enough though. I put clothes and stuff under my mat if I'm expecting it to be really cold. I personally think it's better to do this to stay warm than wear many layers inside your bag, that is just uncomfy.

Rather than do the hood of your bag up around your head, close it round your neck (not too tight!) and wear a woolly hat. This stops the condensation from your breath making your bag damp. Important if you are either sleeping in a down bag or away for multiple days.

I just wear thermal undies and thick socks inside the bag. I find this to be both comfy and warm.

Keep a waterbottle INSIDE your sleeping bag for your morning brew. This will stop it freezing overnight. A freind of mine recently ignored me when I said this, then whinged in the morning that he had no water!

If, like me, you sometimes have to pee during the night, keep a pee bottle in there too. It should be a different type to your water bottle (in case you get thirsty in the night!). I use a nalgene bottle with duct tape wrapped round it so I can identify it by touch. This will stop the long, cold walk to the toilet block at 3 am!

Your tent choice relies more on the wind and rain you expect, than the temperatures. However, a lot of modern tents, especially from US manufacturers, use a lot of mesh in their inners. This offers little insulative benefit and you'd be better off with a tent with a nylon inner.

Cylinders of camping gas become very innefficient in very cold temperatures and, once half full, barely work. You'd be much better off with a petrol stove. (Cheaper to run, and easier to get fuel for, too). The Coleman Sportster 535 is a good cheap stove used by a lot of overlanders.

Regarding waterproofs. If it is well below freezing you don't need waterproofs. Indeed, you'd be better off with nice breathable windproofs. My winter ski jacket is a poly cotton blend that is much 'drier' than a gore-tex in similar circumstances.

Matt :)

Bloody h*** Matt - If I didn't know better I'd say you were Norwegian! ;-)

Anyway - this is next month. That's September. Say October for good measure. You seem to have all the gear you need. Up north you may encounter some snow, but the temp isn't going to be too bad in the coastal area. Inland it may creep further down to well below zero especially at night, but you'll probably not experience anything like -20 C. That's reserved for the coldest depths of January/February, usually.

BTW: The best camping tent by far in cold weather: The Lavvo, into which you can make a fire if you need to. Here's my favourite winter lavvo, the Helsport Varanger ("best in test"). Oh, and while in the north, buy yourself a couple of reindeer skins to use as carpets in your tent. You'll never worry about the cold ground ever again.

http://www.villmarksliv.no/multimedi...g9_105346l.jpg

http://www.frisport.dk/2004/pix/rundbrenner_ild.jpg

Thanks! I'll take that as a compliment! ;)

A friend of mine has one of those tipi things, absolutely awesome! One ill-advised canoeing trip in November last year was made bearable by cramming nine of us in it with the fire and cracking open the malt!

Ooh, I just remembered, for obvious reasons, you want a PLASTIC pee bottle, rather than a metal one!

Matt :)

Matt has summed a lot of it up well enough. So i have little to add. However I think you are not going to get the very cold temperatures that yo are worried about.. according to the world met service in September the temperatures in Murmansk range from 4.3 to 9.5 degs (Celcius), but always better safe then sorry....so..

One of the best bits of advice I was ever given was keep some Gorp (GORP - Food - Good Old Raisins and Peanuts : aka muesli with chocolate in it) in the tent with you at night if you wake up cold eat a handful and you will be amazed how much you can warm up and then sleep afterwards (the scientific reason is called HIF - heat increment of feeding)...yes i am a geek bugger off.

Personally I like the mesh inner tents as they keep you breath condensation away from you and your stuff but it really does have to be a good design. The Tipi styles are what we (British Antarctic survey Camping in the Antarctic - British Antarctic Survey) use "on the Ice" but they are VERY VERY HEAVY and i find quite difficult to set up solo, if you do go this way and make fire in side please please be aware of the carbon monoxide poising risk. I have seen people effected by this several times to many (although luckily none fatal). For that reason i never use any combustion stove inside. (there is also the fire thing..)

Good luck mate. and have fun..

I use this
 

Buy 4 Leg Camp Bed. at Argos.co.uk - Your Online Shop for .

They are £7-99 at the RANGE shop.
I roll it up with my dome tent.
You will actuall enjoy your sleep!!!!!!!!! And you can camp on any ground, even with rocks!
Hint: place your boot under your bed where yuor head goes so the material does not sag. Use a jacket as a pillow! Job done.
Cheers
orrin

Hi Xander,

This is a really good point. In Norway a few years ago in a one man tent I had a really bad time keeping my down bag dry because the condensation would freeze on the inside of the inner then drop onto (or fall off when I brushed against it) my sleeping bag, where it would melt. Luckily I had enough decent days that I could sun my bag for a few hours and dry it out a bit. It never occured to me a mesh tent would prevent this!

The only reservation I have is that, on the same trip, there was a bit of a hoolie and lots of spindrift blew in the outer door. It didn't get into my inner tent, because it was full nylon, but the door did have a an optional outer of no-see-um mozzie netting. The tiny flakes of spindrift went straight through the netting, getting trapped between the two doors. There was a couple of pounds by morning! I'd be scared that this would happen in a mesh tent and I'd get covered in spindrift! Have you ever experienced anything like this or was it a freakish event? I guess if you could stop the spindrift by-passing the outer, it wouldn't get in through the inner, which is where I guess that 'good design' comes in! Would appreciate your thoughts on this (or anyone elses with similar experience!).

Matt :)

We're not talking Antarctic Expedition tipis here, I think. The Helsport Varanger is 11.3 kg in total, incl tent, inner tent, "floor", pole, plugs etc. I don't use the inner tent, shaving off 2.8 kgs. That's 8.5 kg for 17 square meters of tent space. And you can even have the Helsport Lavvulight, weighing in at 2.4 kgs - in total! - but then you have only 6.5 sqm to your disposal.

With some practice it isn't too difficult to put up these modern lavvos by yourself either.

The beauty of lavvos, or tipis if you will, is the continuous air current from the bottom of the lavvo and all the way up through the top. By adjusting the top venting hat and the vents at the bottom you can regulate that current to pull out the smoke and CO. Obviously you want to pay attention, but it has worked for e.g the American Indians and the Sami for ages.

http://www.landriders.no/cms/uploads...Arve%20015.jpg

From the Primus Winter Rally in Norway.

Tatonka Grönland 2 2 Personen Tunnel-ZeltHappy Card Artikel, XSPO - Cross Sports

Randa's RTW

Greetings
Randa / Denmark

You mention you are driving?
Why not sleep in the car?

Be aware that with a camp bed, you have to have lots of isolation under you, as the air under you, can be much colder than the ground and your sleeping bag is compressed where you lie on it.

Take a breathable bivy bag or fix a piece of nylon cloth over your downbag so the condensation from your breath, will collect on that and not on the sleeping bag.

By the way: between +10 and -5 centigrade, is the most annoying as you will get water condensation on the inner tent and you'll get wet every time you touch it.
If its cold enough, the condensation will be rime frost which can be so dry, that you can brush it off your bag or clothes.

A multiburner for diesel or gasolin is very effective in cold climates. A normal gas will not burn at all under 0 centigrade and even "wintergas" doesn't evaporate under -6 / -8 centigrade, if you have to use gas, heat the cannister with a candle and later over the gas fire when its burning (carefully !)

I wonder if you could rig up a spare battery like they do in camper vans, and use this to power heated motorcycle clothing ?

If camping at the same spot for a few days or more, enough green biomass will start to compost and keep you warm. ( six inches thick or more, you cant have too much) In Mons (Belgium) last year, I found a campsite that had put all their grass cuttings in a big heap. by placing my tent over it, the temperature inside teh tent was over 20C with frost outside. My tent is a cheap dome type that i can pick up and position by lifting it by the top.

Normally i sleep on a camp bed ( but then i try to avoid camping when it is cold). With soft warm compost under my tent, no need for the bed.
Re Butane not working in teh cold. I use a small stove that uses 270 or 470 cartridges. these are a 50/50 mix of butane and propane and will work fine down to -5c and less (I dont kno how much further as I dislike teh cold )

A plastic pee bottle (with tape) is a great idea (I'll just leave it outside the door) and GORP is another easy one. A tipi is out though. Great for winter, but too big and expensive for me on what is a relatively short trip. If I ever moved to Norway, I'd get one and probably live in it.:cool4:

I think I'll have to hold off buying a new tent for now. They all look great, but which one to choose? Pranda - thanks for the Tatonka link. If I use my cheapo dome tent for now and just make sure it's properly zipped up and pegged down, it should hold up. If doesn't, I'll just head for the car. I have a tarpaulin that I'll take along. It's fantastic in the rain, but I don't want to make things too complicated. I'll look in the sales when the season is over. Hopefully, I'll know what I'll need before laying down any cash.

Going by replies, it seems I already have most of what I need for this trip. Keeping dry seems to be the key in staying warm and happy - an art in itself. I'll pick up a petrol stove - it may never get cold enough to merit one, but fuel is everywhere and they can be used in any climate. Truth is, I've always liked the look of them, so now I have an excuse to buy one. Cheers.:thumbup1:

Just for the record, I'm doing Russia into Norway so I can leave earlier and still coincide with Norwegian camp fire regulations - no fires allowed until mid September. I'll still need to drive away from the public road to camp though, which is technically against regs. Apparently, the land is only available to use if you walk or ski. I also hope to catch a fish two - means another reg busted if it's fresh water, or two if I try it without a licence. I'm not sure how strict it all is. I suspect Russia will be easier.

Thanks for all the replies so far. I'm not done yet, so if anyone still has thoughts...

Cheers for now.

I've 'camped' in a car and a tent on the same night ... a tent is warmer!!!!!! All that metal and glass .. never again. Well not unless it has been properly set up .. then a tent is cheaper.

One aspect of cold weather tents - the outer wall goes all the way to the ground .. warm weather tents outer walls stop above the ground to get rid of heat by more ventilation. If it is cold and you r tent walls dont go all the way down .. try to make something to block most of the gap.

The pee bottle should be inside the tent .. and inside the bag when you finish - it is warm - so keep trhe heat.

One firm rule - keep a light (headlight, torch or whatever) in some consistant location ... that way you'll always know where to find it .. It is the most important thing you hve on any dark night.

Nostrovia! (sp?)

My home made heated vest will not heat up from the 12 volts provided by a battery on it's own,it needs the full 13.5(ish) volts available with the engine running.I don't know about the proper commercially available heated clothing.

I wouldn't buy and TRY to carry such a big and heavy tent...

I searched the tents and also started a thread about best tents for motorbiking in the Hubb.
I bought something light, effective which has better ventilation. May be you need a better tent for winter condition. Yeah but not something like this 12 kgs huge one...:nono: Even 5 kgs is much IMHO.
I have a very good Salewa Mountain 25 tent which is 4.25 kgs. It is very good for winter. I don't use it for motorbiking. The tent I bought is 3.3 kgs something. Sure, it is not for real winter...

Ah yes may be because of I am ver slim and don't want to have more wight on the bike...:mchappy:

Hey Mat, Sorry i have never experienced this. My tents have never had the no-see-em on the outer (inside yes). So i cant really advise.. Any condensation can still freeze in a mesh inner tent but it will be on the out side of the mesh so it will bounce off and not hit you (only things in the vestibules). One point that this did bring up.. if you are in snow conditions and you can.. dig the tent in a few cm or so (the deeper the better) then pack the snow around the edges of the tent's outter. It has 2 effects 1) stops anything from slipping under (cus even snow tents can move in the wind), it kinda acts as 360deg guy lines. 2) Snow is an amazing insulator so keeps you warmer. Snow caves (dig outs) can get too warm (trust me).

Indu, Yeah i know you are not talking Arctic tipis (but that is my only experience of them).. and yes it is possible to set them up solo (I just find it hard.) but I still find them too heavy .. yes it is compromise between weight and sq footage.. but my personal taste is that I will take small and light.. my tent weighs in at 0.95kg (with pegs, lines and fly and bag). My Main point is that even though they are made for it.. please be sure that you do have good circulation going if burning anything in the tent.. CO is too easy to die from.

Yes, you are right. I think using a lavvo is like having a van: You sort of get addicted to the convenience of all that space. The lavvo in itself is not so large when packed up and fits neatly on the bike. But it's not small, and if size and/or weight is your prime concern there are other options. In winter, I have a high priority on the ability to make a fire to dry clothes and keep warm inside the tent. I do not find other suitable options than a lavvo. And I can bring in the bike if I need to ;-)

Look at the photo, one of the guys is wearing a thermal suit bit like a ski suit. (red/black with some reflective on). Not sure what they are called but you can pick them up in larger supermarkets in Norway, they are cheap and great in cold dry conditions if it gets really cold you can sleep in them too.

If your heating packs up you can drive in them. They are a great bit of kit to have even if you only use them when in camp.

have a good trip :scooter:

You're thinking of these, perhaps:

http://www.jobbogfritid.no/imageget....=422&comp=true

They are thermal wear and are actually quite popular among winter riders. Water repellant, windproof and very warm.

You can also buy snowmobile outfit, it works great for winter motorcycle riding too.

If it came to that, I'll activate Plan B - the south of France.

In fact, it's now starting to seem like a really good idea.:wink3:

:palm::palm::palm::Beach::palm::palm::palm:

cheers Hans P they are the ones, a very useful bit of kit.

I was always taught that to sleep well at night in cold weather you had to strip off everything that you wore during the day (then find a Norwegian Princess) and put on dry clothing (that should keep you hot). The sweat that finds its way into your clothes during the day makes it colder if you leave even a slightly damp shirt on. I've been laughed at on a few occasions in cold weather as I pranced around naked in 1/2" cold weather - only to have a loyal following the next night.

A few hot rocks from around a camp fire, wrapped in newspaper can make life a lot more bearable.

That's the way I do it too, stripping off everything I mean. I only wear wool (not cotton or any other fabric) undies to transport any perspiration when I'm sleeping in my sleeping bag in the winter.

silk liners
 

I've found that silk sleeping bag liners do wonders. They add about a season to a bag and pack to the size of a fist. They were great in the kalahari when our kettle froze solid overnight.
And you can wash them easily - unlike sleeping bags.

Winter in the south of France is not that nice .. :) .. try Morocco. Might take a few days to get there ... I don't travel that fast in the cold.

A bizarre but potentially life-saving tip. Well, a night's sleep saving tip anyway. Though if I'm on a bike tour it's rare I'll spend more than one night in one place. But a good tip anyway.

Now it's not like me to point this one out, but I'm afraid this is one of those times when you have to stay off the beer too :(

Alchohol (and tea and coffee, less so) dehydrate you, make you need to pee and change your metabolic rate. The guy who has a tot before bed feels nice and warm, gets off to sleep OK but needs to pee at 2 am and that's your lot sleep wise until you get up, start the fire etc. The guy who goes to bed after say a mug of hot chocolate might wake up cold, but after the museli (I prefer a chocolate biscuit) will get back off to sleep again.

If you want a really bad nights sleep (actually about an hour), go to the Elefant, get off your face on what the Russian and Czech riders give you out of hip flasks, fail to close your tent properly and sleep fully clothed until the snow on your hat starts to melt. After that you can have as good a tent and sleeping bag as you like, you'll still be too cold to sleep. :nono:

If it is that sort of event, the cup of cocoa before you turn in works wonders IMHO, but need to be with it enough to use the stove safely.

Andy

How about chocolate and a little something making a nice, warm Kalhua type drink... ;)

Never tried. The first one might be revolting, but in my experience the next three or four are fine and it's the last one that does for you :(

Andy

Strange. That's my experience too...

Last time I tried something like that I spent the night listening to the rats running around outside the tent. I've tended to stay away from rubbish heaps since.

May I suggest a book by Dave Barr. He road across Siberia on a Sportster in winter.

I fully agree with you on that one. It makes a world of difference if you can pull some warm, dry thermals/pj's/silken shag*ing gown on.

As an addition to that tip. If before bed, you strip down to your minimum clothing, then run as fast as you can to the nearest tree and back, and then get into the warm dry stuff, then jump in your bag, you feel so much toastier.

Any people nearby will think you are a complete loon, and it takes some mustering to do it in really cold weather, but the increased circulation really gets your sleeping bag throbbing with heat.

As an aside to that - if the nearest tree happens to be more than a hundred metres away or so, you probably want to find something closer so you don't work up a sweat and then ruin all the hard work.

Mmm, the comforting morale giving properties of cuddling a warm bottle of man pi*s to sleep should never be underestimated.

Joel

Hi Indu - I want to come to Norway one day and visit that plateau around Telemark one day, perhaps do one of the army winter survival courses if possible. I admire so much about Norway except for your low speed limits! :thumbdown: (and expensive beer :thumbdown: :thumbdown:) but the girls....:thumbup1:

Tel me - is there anywhere you know where I can buy Norway Army surplus winter jackets?

Takk skal du ha for du rådet. Norge er avkjøle!

Are you still en route to Murmansk?
 

Its a few years since I was last there and it was January, but day time temperatures, including windchill were down to -42C and with only two hours of twilight!

I would (at this time of year) seriously consider your transport options, i.e. diesel freezing, oil in the axles turning to sludge, the inside of the vehicle being like a freezer without a dedicated heater, etc. Plus survival time with a broken down vehicle is counted in hours, not days. I'm sure you are aware, but it is not an environment to be taken lightly.

All that said it is a wonderful part of the world, especially at that time of the year. For equipment, I would go mostly for ex-army arctic survival - they're usually over specified. Have a look at:

Buy your Military Issue EXTREME COLD weather sleeping bag, Arctic sleeping bag, military sleeping bag from Surplus and Adventure UK online store

Hi,
Not sure where you can get decent army surplus stuff. www.forsvarsbrukt.no is a web business (Norwegian only) that sells some army surplus but the collection of winter jackets is not that great it seems. There are of course stores and web businesses selling civilian stuff that is very good - but if army surplus is what you want I have to check around a bit.

Try here... Military Surplus | Miltary Clothing | Police Kit | Police surplus

or here...
Soldier of Fortune

Yes rubbish tips bad place to camp, all sorts of creepy crawlies.

I was referring to fresh cut green biomass. I learned this by accident back in 1961 when on a survival training course in the new forest. I pulled lots of young newly sprouting bracken to alleviate the cold and hardness of the ground after spending an uncomfortable first night in a makeshift tent. The first night with the bracken was much comfier, and I thought not so cold due to insulation of the ground by the bracken, Next night was much, much warmer stayed really warm for over a week.

Sadly not a lot of heat on the first night unless you pitch on finely chopped greenstuff. Not usually easily available. The coarser harder stuff takes longer to start composting. after 2-3 days though, the base will be well over 20 c possibly over 30c. Handy if you break down, or want to stop and do a couple days fishing.

I wouldn't buy army surplus. The army stuff is cheaper but much lower quality as the stuff you can buy for civilians. The armies can't afford the best or won't, as the they have to buy huge quantities and the soldiers get shot anyway ;o(
If its warm it very heavy.

Take a look at this link Buy your Military Issue EXTREME COLD weather sleeping bag, Arctic sleeping bag, military sleeping bag from Surplus and Adventure UK online store that "extreme" sleeping back is very flat, its air that insulates, so an "extreme" should be high even when lying flat with no one in it. My warmest sleeping bag is 12" high when empty but doesn't weigh more than 3,1kg