possible cardan problems R100gs...
 

Hi! I'm in Uzbekistan on a R100gs, and my back wheel has some hard spots when I turn it with the hand. It makes some "klonk klonk" on the side of the gearbox when i turn the wheel by hand. When I ride I don't feel anything special.. The oil level in the gearbox and on the back (don't know the name in english) are ok, I just changed the oel.. There is no radial play with the back wheel.

What should i do? Continue riding like this? Here in Uzbekistan, I think it's difficult to find a good mechanic... and I don't know which parts I need...

Thanks for suggestions... I should ride 3000km to be back in russia, then I have no problems with visa (have a 1year multi entry) and could wait for parts...

Hi Zimi
I presume the bike is on its centre stand when you hear these sounds? The angle of the drive shaft to the gear box output bearing is very steep and it may be that the drive shaft is knocking on the inside of the swing arm.

I'd suggest the following:
1. Push the bike down the road with no motor running and listen, or get somebody to push the bike while you crawl with your ear next to the back of the gearbox. If there is no sound, you should be ok (I had the same symptoms as you and when I crawled next to the bike there was no noise).

Just to really check I took the driveshaft off and put it on a lathe to see if it was out of allignment: mine was ok. I did this because I had just replace the U-joint 500km before and I was concerned. In this case I was just being paranoid.

If you are still not sure:

2a. Try to inspect the front U-joint by pulling back the rubber boot and spinning the wheel.

2b. remove the drive shaft and inspect both u-joints. A car/truck mechanic replaced mine in Ecuador. Any good mechanic can do this: car/trucks have many u-joints, just usually a lot bigger than on a BMW bike.

If you need a new u-joint, the part you need is easily available in Germany. I don't recall it was very expensive either. I'm sure you can search on google.de or search/post a question on a German speaking BMW forum.

The German for universal joint is Kardangelenk.

If your gearbox is losing no oil and there is no oil in the swingarm, then your gearbox output bearing and seal are probably ok.

Good luck
Chris

Hi chris, thanks for your answer!!!

no I'm not loosing any oil and had the gearbox completed rebuilt before my trip (new bearings and sealings). I will try, but I think it make some noise when I push it, maybe a little less, but still. But I don't feel anything particular when I ride it...

Will keep in touch

Hi Zimi
If it is still making a noise when pushing it, I would look very very carefully at the front u-joint and where it connects to the gearbox and the kardan.

Before I replaced my u-joint I had noises too (don't remember exactly what kind, but something made me stop and return to the town I had just left (Locha in southern Ecuador). A man in a car took me to his mate's garage. He spoke English and he did everything for me.

Luckily I spotted it in time and replaced it before everything (u-joint and 2 holes/mounts on kardan) broke completely. This prevented the hole (on the kardan) that part of the u-joint fits into from breaking off completely. On mine it was only cracked a little and was welded successfully. Then the new U-joint was fitted.

Also if the u-j breaks completely while riding you'll have a kardan smashing about the inside of your swingarm for the time it takes you to stop the bike.

If it is the u-j that is the problem, then getting one small u-j posted and fitted will be much cheaper and easier than a whole new kardan with 2 u-js.

Let me know how you get on.
cheers
Chris

Do not like "klonk klonk"...

Have you used a long screwdriver, tire iron, or what ever of solid material as a stetoscope?

Locate the sound!

It is not likely that anything inside the gearbox broke - but it is prudent to rule-it-out.

Just grasp across the rubberboot and feel how the U-joint moves. If anything feels a bit "not right" - unfasten the boot and inspect.

What I fear have happened is far worse... a damaged bevel... sounds like it comes from the gearbox, but it really steems from the bevel (final drive).

See, I suffered just about what you describe a couple of years back.
- put the bike in neutral on soft smooth level ground. Pull and push the bike backwards and forwards gently; any kind of non-smoothness from the bike will indicate drive-train damages -:(

Perhaps this link is fully open - so that you can see what happened to my final drive:
Svenska BMW MC Klubben • Visa tråd - Tandläkare sökes till slutväxel


Summation:
- rule-out gearbox by using a "stetoscope"
- check the u-joints
- beware of final drive internal damages, like broke teeth and bearing failure.

My experience is that we noted a small vibration at certain speeds between Springbok and Capetown. By the time we arrived at Johannesburg (about 3000 miles) it was more consistent but not bad. We flew the bike to Luxembourg and after 800 miles in France it eventually packed up in Rouen. I can't say if it's the same problem as your's but I would say that if you don't notice the problem whilst driving continue gently and arrange for a new shaft to be awaiting you at the next major city or BMW garage. Keep hold of the faulty part and get it serviced/repaired by a specialist

Thanks for your help guys!!!

So I tries to push the bike on the neutral, it makes just a little bit of noise, but much less than when it's on the central stand. If I sit on the bike and try to push it, almost no noise...

So maybe I can still ride those 3000km to Volgograd, carefully. The thing is there are some pretty bad roads on the way...

I didn't want to open the rubber boot because it's so hard to put back on, but I think I will do it to have a idea.

I will try to locate the sound more precisely as well, and write back.

My idea is try continue like this a let me ship a spare shaft (have one at home) at some place.

Will keep in touch, thanks to everybody!
Zimi

From what you describe it is possible that the driveshaft is on its way out, DO NOT RIDE IT LIKE THAT, if it breaks it can lock up the back wheel as happened to one member of this forum nearly bringing him and his partner off on the motorway at 110 kph. Take the trouble to remove the rubber gaiter, take it off at the gearbox end it is easier to get back on there and check it.
A tip for getting longer shaft life on a 100GS is to use the rear shock absorber from the R100R, it keeps the shaft more inline increasing its life, my last shaft did 165,000 km before failing, longer than most last.

Hi, so I check the upper side. There was a little oil leak on the rubber. Then nothing looked broken... If I hold the part going in the gearbox and turn the wheel, I can turn about 5mm (made a mark on the outer diameter of the enddrive, before that it starts to move there. So I don't know how much play there should be normally...


then... I opened at the back, and had a couple of centiliter oil coming out, very black, and more concerning... 3 joints and broken parts of needle bearing...

Looking at the pictures, were does these come from? I think the joints are from shaft and the bearing from one of both bearing on the swingarm....

Are those bearing standard or do I have to get them from BMW...

I probably rode 1000-1500km with this problem...

How critical it is do you think? I should better put the bike on a truck?

If I let me send my spare cardan, should I get as well 4 news screws to bolt it on the gearbox?

The bits of bearings might be from the u-joint (it has bearings) or possibly from the bearing(s) where the rear bevel box connects to the swingarm or from the rear bevel box itself. I can't tell from the image (not sure of the scale). The other bits look not too clever either.

I would very stongly suggest you remove the rear bevel box, the shock, swing arm and kardan (it is quite easy to do: my only problem was finding an allen key big enough for 1 of the bolts connecting the bevel to the swingarm) and inspect everything in detail to find out the causes of the problem.

Then try to source the parts locally if possible. If not get them from home from a trusted source who won't mess you about (I personally, but I'm biased, would never go to a main BMW dealer: use somebody who is small and reliable and specialises in old Airheads).

I would not ride the bike any further until I have diagnosed the cause of the debris in your photo.

Yes you should get 4 new bolts.

NB. Please note the bevel box to kardan bearing bolts only have very small torque settings, or at least 1 does. When you order new ones I suggest you remember to be gentle with them when you put them in.

cheers
Chris

Thanks Chris,

from a friend that know well the old airheads, theses needles are NOT from the both bearing that connect the bewelbox to the swingarm, first they are too small (around 1mm diameter, lenght around 8mm, but most are broken...

The both swingarm bearing are bigger and conical, these are cylindrical.

the joints have a diameter of approx 16mm when closed...

That's probably what I will do, take out the cardan to look at it, jsut to be sure, I am just waiting a little longer, because If I have to move the bike from the guesthouse for a truck, it's easier with a shaft inside... Because If I open, probably I would not bother put the shaft back inside!

Those seals are from the driveshaft bearings but some of the rollers might be from the swinging arm pivot bearings. If you are going to dismantle the swinging arm you will need a 10 mm allen key and a long piece of tube to use as an extension, the inside pivot bolt is very tight and has thread lock compound on it. It is easier to undo this with just the rear wheel removed and the rest of the swinging arm in place on the bike, get somebody to steady the bike on the stand and use an extension of at least 500 mm on the key.
As Chris has said if you are having a new shaft sent out get a set of new bolts to bolt it to the gearbox and pivot bearings sent out as well. With luck you will not have damaged anything in the bevel box.
Putting this back together is a job for somebody with experience of doing it, there are a few things to look out for so I would suggest to truck it to a mechanic, perhaps somebody looking at this knows of one near to you or there is one mentioned elsewhere on the hubb.

I would like, if I can, not dismantel the bewel box from the swingwarm, because it's gonna be difficult here to have proper tool and especially a torkwrech to adjust it properly.

I have seen on a picture in my pdf service book, that there is as well a needle bearing in the end of the bewel box, how big is it?

Looking at the size of the needle, I would suppose that they are not from them, but... I will have to open to be sure...

and for the procedure, there is the best BMW webpage on the web from a german friend that lives in switzerland, he has good explanation and pictures in english

Joergs R80GS Page

for now I have another issue, impossible to find a 27 key arround!!!! :(

Sorry, it's too long ago that I can remember the size and shape of the various bearings and seals on the back end of an Airhead. Attaching the bevelbox back onto the swing arm and lining up the driveshaft was quite easy. I just used a small long screwdriver to line things up before putting the bolts/bearings back in. I suppose an old coathanger would work too.

You don't need a torque wrench. If the book says something like 10nm be very gentle and if it says 100nm you can impress the girls a bit more with your muscles :thumbup1:.

If you can take everything apart, you can take pictures of everything and send them to your friend/post them here for feedback. There are others here, particularly Mark, who has much more recent knowledge (and an Airhead in his garage as we speak). The last time I had the (dis)pleasure :(:innocent: of working on an Airhead was 10 years ago.

cheers
Chris

In your first photo there are pieces that look to me like a bearing cup on the UJ. The seals are certainly from the UJ. I would have thought it would be quite easy to see which cup has disintegrated.

Contrary to my previous post about my experience with a shaft failure (we had no debris as in your photos) I would definately not ride any further. Apart from the danger of the wheel locking there is also a risk of causing a lot of other expensive damage

Zimi, I replied to your post also inside the "Northern Asia" section.
As for the part I quoted, I can tell you my fresh news, since I rode this part last month.
The road from Qulsary (where I was stuck with my broken Harley) to Atyrau is fantastic, it's like riding in western Europe, but from Atyrau to the RUS-KZ border is terrible: asphalt but many potholes and veeeery bumpy.
From the border to Astrakhan then Volgograd, it's good and you'll ride there with no problems.

Bye
Nick

Looking at it again I think all of those parts are from the shaft bearings, the different length parts are from rollers that have broken up.
If you remove the paralever arm, swinging arm and take out the shaft the two parts of the swinging arm should pivot smoothly without and play, a mechanic should be able to check this without taking it apart.
I have just renewed the original set of bearings in mine after 250,000 km so they do last a lot longer than the shafts.
I hope all of this advice is not confusing you too much!

Thanks you guys for all your help, you were right, I found a 27mm nut from an US Mongolia Rally team and could dismount this morning. It's one of the shaft bearing that's broken, no other damage.

Have a look at the pictures.

Will first try to see if somebody can fixe it here, and otherwise by bike will have to go on the train or in a truck...

Will give some news

Thanks to everybody for your precious help!

Broken needlebearing?!...

That u-joint does not look too happy (pretty)...

Good thing that you opted to take a close look inside the shaft...

I still advocate the usage of hypoid oil in the shaft - in spite of the BMW manual. It will leak a little bit, but that out-weighs the lubrication of the two u-joints on the GS/PD models.

A comment I got from a garage years ago:
"give the u-joints a good squirt of oil every now and then, and they will last".

I use Omega 690 80W/90 GL7.
Magna Industrial Co. Limited

Hello!

So I have some news! Found a replacement part in the market, It's for the stearing wheel of a russian Uaz car, the size is almost identical, it fits. My only concerne is that the part is probably weaker and was not designed to transmit so much torque...

The BMW part is full iron, the Russian part has holes inside for greasing

They welded some washer on each 4 sides, to prevent the bearings to fall out, which is a good idea I think

In the first picture, on the left side is the russian part and on the right side is the BMW part... What do you think, would you drive with this?

It certainly looks useable, I would be worried that the spot welds have created tight spots in the bearings but if it runs smoothly it should be ok. I have no idea how you normally ride but I would take it steady, no hard acceleration, keep the speed down to 100 km/h and check how the shaft feels every day before riding, as I have said if it breaks it could lock up the rear wheel.
Certainly quicker and cheaper than waiting for a new shaft so good luck with it.

That looks like a good repair in the circumstances. As Mark says don't give it too much stress and you may notice some vibration when travelling at a steady speed on a smooth road due to the UJ not being a 'balanced' item

That's geat news. I would ride it and take the advice by Mark and Charles (Magnon) on board.

Just because it is a Russian part, don't assume it is inferior to something made in Germany. They are as good as each other and arguably the Russian bit is better. Replacement German aftermarket UJs for BMW kardans come with grease nipples. If the originals had them too and you greased them at suitable intervals, aguably (a lot of arguing happening atm :-) ), they would never break.

Ride to arrive: Take it easy on the bike and let us know how it goes.

cheers
Chris

Hi Guys,

Ok, I finished remounting the swingarm, the bike is ready. The action is smooth in one way, on the other it's a little harder, but I will probably need to run a little...

Of course I will keep the speed and torque low, because I think thatthe part is not designed to transmit so much torque, compared to the bmw, it's empty inside, the section of the tubes are thinner...

Will give you good news I hope!!

Maybe buy 2 or 3 spare UJs as spares?
C

Ok, I arrived to Bukhara safely, it was a good test ride 260km, I didnt otice anything special, kept the speed at 80km/h, and the rev under 3500 rpm...

I drove 460km more on terrible roads to Khiva, still going great, and my part has already arrived in Atyrau (3 days only!!!)

Fascinated by how your solution is standing up. If it keeps you mobile ,wondeful:thumbup1:

[QUOTE=Zimi;345844]Hello!

So I have some news! Found a replacement part in the market, It's for the stearing wheel of a russian Uaz car, the size is almost identical, it fits. My only concerne is that the part is probably weaker and was not designed to transmit so much torque...
Quote
....but the BMW part already broke !:(
Actually the BMW u joints are junkish and have a history of failure since they are greased for life. Too puny to take all the stress of the double jointed drive shaft They fail not because the retainer caps fall out, they fail because the grease dries up and disappears . Personal experience! New shafts from BMW stock are now so old that grease has already started drying ,giving much shorter service life
If you can get some grease nipples into the Ruski part and make it last till the new replacement arrive it might last longer yet .Do try to get a shaft with grease fittings for the u joints.
Best of luck.

Zimi

Im in Atyrau let me know if you need any help with anything when you are in town

Regards
Dansky

I am in Atyrau, the russian part did the job for the 2000km I needed.

Picked up the part at the DHL office, paid 1500 tenge (10$) for customs.

After inspection, the russian U-Link has developped play, in one direction at least 0.5mm, maybe even more. The welding is still ok, I think the part could have done a couple of thousand kilometers more probably. But I think it was the right decision not to take any risk and change the shaft, I still have 5000-6000km to go before home...

zimi

you got mail

dansky

doh
I keep on forgetting that BMW have later issues of shafts that by some unexplicable reason runs dry, i.e. not in oil...
:censored:

Guess I just have to get one of these weird contraptions (post "proper" /7 issues boxers), just to test my point of view on them as I have on the K-bikes... i.e. that a shaft should run in an oil-bath, so that splines and u-joints are constantly lubricated.
On the "proper" /7 issues I have yet to encounter any broken shaft or u-joint that is run in oil...
Mind you, when I asked a garage once about the /7 GS/PD monolever, the reply I got from them was "give it (the u-joint/-s) a good squirt of oil (hypoid) every now and then, and they'll be ok".

Why not test my point of view - to prove me wrong if anything ;)
Fill-up the shaft with hypoid or automatic gearoil (kind to the rubber shock-absorbers) - and see what happens -:)
beer

by the way, if it can help somebody in central asia, I put the picture of the U link they used for my shaft. It's a part from steering for Uaz jeep or Gazelle minibus

By the way the old G/S shaft was completely in oil, and do they suffer for the same problems? I don't think so. How where the U joint on the old one? Same or different? And what about the new GS's 1100-1150-1200, how is the shaft? They have this problem as well...

For me, I'm going back to a bike with a chain after this trip...

My point Zimi...

I did ask our best BMW garage in Stockholm in the mid 1990:ties about the u-joint and splines problem. They reply that they got one (1) broken u-joint in over 30 years of working with beemers... reason - owner of a R75 had forgotten to fill the shaft with oil at an overhaul...
Then they described the yearly breaking of the mono-lever crappy construction not to say the 1100's... To say the least, they were no supporters of dry-running shafts...

I will take a small leaking of oil over broken u-joints and splines - if that it the only down-side of filling the newer bikes shafts with oil.
The K-bike I did this operation to in 2002 - is still running with the same oil in its shaft; and this is some 70 000km later - no break-down.

Point is - things that run dry, will brake.
The cost/price is far higher when it brakes down vs the very limited leaking (if any) of oil from the shaft should it be oil-filled.