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Bmw F650
Hi. Could anyone please give me a quick run down on the differences between the various F650 variants.
We are looking for a second bike for my wife and an F650 would seem to be a good buy. Looking on ebay it seems reasonable to pick a something like 2002 to 2004 for around 2k. But there seem to be so many models, We're looking for a bike which will be used mainly on the road but can cope with some gentle trail riding and rough roads. The seat height must be low, which rules out the Dakar version (which would be too expensive anyway) There seems to be a Funduro, GS and a CS. It looks like they switched fom chain drive to belt about 5 years ago and I guess one of these would be preferred. Any information and/or opinions would be appreciated. |
From what I understand the old Funduro was replaced by the GS and CS with the CS being belt driven for it's entire factory run and therefor would be not preferred on any non paved roads.
The GS is chain driven and differs from the Dakar by having a 19" front wheel and less suspention travel and I think height as well. They are quite sporty and comfortable both on road as well as off road. Like everything they have their shortcomings which if you know how to use a spanner and lube some bearings you're fine with. I find the normal GS turn into the corners a bit to quick, but I've only ever riden bikes with 20" wheels. |
1993-2000 F650 Funduro Carbed engine, chain drive, 19-inch front wheel
1996-2000 F650 ST carbed engine, chain drive, 18-inch front wheel. 2000-2008 F650 GS FI engine with underseat tank, chain drive, 19-inch front wheel. 2000-2008 F650 Dakar, as above with 21-inch front wheel. 2002-2006 F650 CS, FI engine and underseat tank, belt drive, 18-inch front wheel. All F650's have Aprillia build quality and BMW service quality with the additional bonus that half of BMW's techs don't understand anything that can't be plugged in. Price is going to be based on how they've been used and hence how grotty they are. A good one will do anything asked of it. A bad one will be a mess. Things to look for: Get a multimeter on the battery, low voltage or heat probably means the VR is on it's way out. Dip the oil. Chocolate brown means the water pump seal has gone. I had two Funduro's. The 93 did what BMW's reputation said it would, the 99 did what modern BMW's seem to do, it dropped to bits. IMHO, shop on condition and don't be fooled by the badge. Personally I'd look for a Yamaha or Kawasaki. Google Chain Gang, they are the internet F650 group and have a very good FAQ. Andy |
Thanks for the replies. I'm certainly a lot clearer now on the various models but I'm still not sure it's the right bike to go for. Trouble is all the bikes which have anything resembling off-road capabilities seem too tall.
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Is it for a trip mate ???
The 650's are ok for pottering about the UK on but a pile of unreliable poorly made crap to travel on... Do a search for low travel bikes. There are HUNDREDS of threads. |
Little Beemer
Hi, I have only a little experience of the F650 GS single but I'd say it is very heavy when stationary. It is a lovely bike to ride on all road surfaces but too low and heavy for anything other than a rough, rocky track. At a steady 65mph it has vicious bar vibrations--my left hand was numb for 3 weeks after leaving it! It does 73mpg quite easily. It is known that many of them have bad peeling of engine paint.
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I had a 1999 F650 fun it was a good bike rotex mill ran grate. I miss it.
Then the VR or RR or what ever went out on it as they get hot and are air cooled and under the seat. Got the thing to a BMW dealer and spent 6 moths in the shop told me it ran but had a oil problem 3k to 4k to fix. The oil pump went bad and need to split the case. The oil pump is not in the case you can get to with 3 bolts, and it was fine. the big oil problem was with there poking around for 6 moths someone drained the oil and did not fill it back up just add a quart of oil. The way they found out about it was joy riding my bike around and need to split the case to rebuild the guts. And need to cover them self for the 3k to fix it all. What realy pissed me off is when I asked them why split the case showing them where the oil pump is and why there was low oil problem. I was told I was wrong and at BMW there is never a problem like this and there is no way it was there fault. And I need to fix the bike or get a new BMW (as the price to fix it will run more than the bike is worth) All this for a $300 RR. and 1 hr. of work (they did not fix it with a new part just a used one that made the bike run) I traded the bike in on brand new DL650 vstrom. 25,000 miles and no problems. Just oil rubber and filters. look real close at the options before dropping the $. The early FI in the F650 had some problems this is when BMW started to make the F , the carb pre 2000 are not BMWs there Aprillia. The only thing BMW has on them is the tag on the bike. BMW did not make motor did not make the design did not put the thing together. Still there is nothing wrong the bike. Gust the company that makes them. |
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It's an awesome bike to take anywhere. The best thing about it is the availability of the info on it. Haynes manual, Chain Gang FAQ, maintenance DVD which even tell you how to split the motor your self, parts fiches on the software your dealer have, electrical diagrams, diagnostic equipment, user mods, the list goes on. If you still have problems with it that have been discussed at lenght....... well. You know where I'm going with this. The technical info mentioned here is correct though. The Funduro DLbiten mentioned is indeed an Aprillia. Good bike, but now old fashioned. The early GS BM put together themselves (with Rotax's powerplant) had FI issues. Typical BM. They don't test like Yamaha does. Also, BM is useless with aftermarket service in my experience. The twin spark is what you want IMHO. The later versions are the best with most issues ironed out. There are also lemons. But ask me about my DRZ400E so called bullitproof bike which is currently at the dealer under warrenty. :offtopic: |
Hi Paul
Mines a 2007 gs 650 If Vanessa wants to have a go, then she'd be most welcome to take it for a test ride. I'm assuming the collarbone has healed ok. Catch up with you soon cheers John |
Hi John
Thanks very much John. That is very kind of you but I think you are a fair distance from us. The collarbone is nearly healed and she's just about ready to ride again although the Harley will be a bit heavy at first. We're off to the local BMW dealer up the Meon valley when we get a free Saturday. Hope your plans are going well. Perhaps we'll catch up at one of the meets. Cheers Paul |
go look at this and then tell me F650gs in not good off road!
Hi -
sorry just saw this thread and had to put in my pennies worth! I have a heavily adapted (but standard engine) F650gs. I have put on it a 21" front rim ( I am way too short for the Dakar at just 5'2") and have so far ridden through 60 countries in 7 years - 80% off road. through the Sahara, the Amazon and Altiplano in Bolivia and now just 6 weeks on the tough off-roads in Mongolia including The Gobi desert. the bike has over 150,000 miles on it. this bike can go anywhere and do almost everything...its the rider who will prevent it from going into and through places. i have never had an engine problem, never had the 'vibrations' at speed that I hear about. it sits well on the motorways at 80mph + fully laden. I have never had any issues with the frame - not so much as a hair-line split despite the roads we take with the weight I carry. and the only maintenance has just been the usual routine stuff like replacing worn parts after so many miles. I have only had 5 fork seals go on me over the last 7 years on the road, the chains and sprockets last me around 10 to 15 K miles. If you are suffering from vicious handle-bar vibrations then it might be an idea to look at the steering head bearing, the fork oil making sure that both sides are equal and the same weight. or the bolts are properly torqued on both the triple-clamp and fork bridge. all-in-all I am so impressed with this bike. and cant believe that after all these years and miles that it can be just down to 'luck'. I'm just not that lucky! go have a look at 2ridetheworld.com if you want any more proof of just how good this bike is. |
Thanks Lisa. That's quite an enthusiastic endorsement!
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I can second Lisa's opinion. I've done 50000km over the past 15 months. The bike is great.
Only problem really is the rear shock absorber. But from what I hear from other rtw overlanders (on other bikes): rear shocks are a potential problem on rtw trips. (1 friend with a XR250 & 15kg luggage had a shock problem, as well as another friend on a Tenere). Personally, I'd get the F650 any time again. But I'd fit a new BASIC rear shock (Wilbers/Oehlins). Basic meaning: No fancy adjustments, just a "one-piece" shock, with the spring wound up to your travel weight. One thing I agree with though: The engine paint isn't the best oon those F650s... Then again, that's only cosmetic anyway. And after such a long trip, I wouldn't want to sell the bike anyway, just for sentimental reasons... |
Cape York
We have just completed a trip to Cape Bedow on 2 F650 gs Twins and I must say they went superb, they were both packed to the rafters, and one was 2up, the road conditions were challenging to say the least with some very steep hills as well as miles of corrogations and mixed with heavy sand. I have had a V-Stom 650 before and it was excellent, but this bike has measured up:thumbup1: I will post some photos if I can work out how to do it.
But if you are looking at a good all round bike I would recommend it. Paul |
Thanks to all who responded to this. We are now the new owners of a 2001 650 GS which we bought this morning from a dealer in Chichester.
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the very best of luck with it.
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If anyone wants more info on the differences this site is good
F650 History, Differences and Purchasing FAQ |
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Plus being good mates with a large lists of owners (who have now swapped them out of pure frustration) who have had their trips turned into nightmares because of these bikes and also being the guy who has helped more than one standed Gs650 owner on the road in South America. :innocent: They are good bikes for pottering around on your local countryside but I wouldnt even take a free one out of my own country. Ill just have to agree to dissagree with you my friend :smartass: |
Nah, that's too easy, and against the spirit of this place. Why not help out some existing owners (including me) and try and sort out some of the problems by mentioning (all) the issues. I'm listing heaps of them on my blog with the solutions alongside them but I could always be missing one or two.
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Pretty much covered in that link above.. I'll only be repeating that. It's a good site is that....
Buying an F650 - What to watch out for Mostly Classic, but some of these Symptoms have popped up in the GS
From my experiences the major and pretty inexcusable issues are: Water pump failures. I don't know a high miler without this happening more than once. Some get lucky I guess. Should be a recall in my opinion. Regulator rectifier burn up and need replacing frequently. Especially in hot climates. Headstock bearings dont last due to oil in the frame cooking out the grease. General build quality of fairings, mudguards, fasteners... Not what you expect of an expensive "travel" bike. And these ARE expensive for what they are. They fall apart. Plus, these things ROT... Dont expect any paint on your engine and cases after long if you live in a UK type climate. Another thing I hate on these is how badly thought out they are regarding servicing. Nothing is accessable or easy to do. You have to strip half the bike for minor service work which shows it was designed as a street bike primarily. The facts are quite clear and common place.. I get defensive over my own bikes too, even when I know they arnt as good as I think they are. I don't hunt out 650 owners and try to make them feel bad. I only post advice to "newbie" hubbers looking for their first bike and who have been sucked into the BMW adventure marketing machine. There are soooo many better bikes for the job which are usually much cheaper, far more reliable and much better made. I don't hate BMW's, I don't hate BMW owners, I'm not jealous and im not going to lose sleep over it... If I see one broken down at the side of the road, I'll definately pull over and help... I've got the tshirt. |
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Chris |
Wow, that's a fair list. And there was me thinking we were talking about the GS. Not much on that list related to that. I've listed heaps of things related to the GS on my blog, but my biggest gripes for living with it are with simple things like having to remove the indicators. Or how they and the panels never really fit nice. Or how the air filter is really hard to get to compared to others.
Other issues are when you see cost cutting coming into play. Like that stupid solid oil return hose which stops you from repairing that water pump seal on the side of the road. On the up side on the waterpump issue, there is a weep hole which will let you know when it's due to be replaced before you're oil is contaminated. To me it's better to have to find some water for the cooling than to find good oil. 640Adventures for example don't have that, and all water pumps fail. This one just a bit more than others it seems. Mine went at 18000km, but my wife's with the same milage is still going strong. With a flexible hose it can be fixed in 20min. Not sure on other bikes. I still haven't understood the reason for the steering head bearings to fail and only have had one replacement at 19000km on one of our bikes. I'll probably never find out because I've swapped my front end with one from a YZ250. I can tell you that changing bearing on the F is HEAPS easier than the YZ. On the F you can do it anywhere, on the YZ you need hydraulic presses and the correct size bearing remover. I did the one on the F in an hour. The cavity between the radiator and the frame is unforgivible IMHO but other than that and what I've documented on my blog there is really nothing unusual to go wrong on it. And personally I find it real easy to work on. You get a lot of parts coming of for a valve change, but you don't have to remove a 26l tank of fuel which is not easily done in a hotel courtyard when you have on lookers that don't really like you working on the bike at all. And really, you only have to remove the body work, airbox and oil tank for the valve check which on the F can be ignored. They hardly change on a trip. If you're smart you should try and make maintenance easier and quicker regardless off the bike. So remove a sump plug and put a fumoto valve on. I did on every bike, and love not having to remove anything to change the oil (except the filter; stainless recommended). Suspension should be modified on every trip as well, I reckon. The difference between design weight and used weight is just too big. If you don't, it's a risk. But in saying that, expensive Ohlins shocks have been known to self distruct. At the (cast) bottom mounting point off all places, so I guess there is just no guarentee with shocks. Just try and keep things light with some throw over soft luggage is best IMHO. We had one Wilbers shock fail but that was due to vulcanic ash. So I'm ok with that. BM has a bad habbit it seems to bring out a product untested or insufficiently tested and doing upgrades later in the model shelf life. So personally I'd be looking (if you go for an F) for a GS not older than 2005. From memory there hasn't been any reported surging etc issues on the later ones, and really, the later models should always be the best models. So it's a pretty safe bet. I'm currently stuck with vibration issues that I can't seem to solve but which I suspect are due to damage engine mounting bolts. I had shipping damage with a rear mounting bolt badly bent but had to do the trip with it. So I might be looking for an alternative if I can't solve it, but nothing really lights my fance. The 690 looks awesome, but needs modding for comfort and has some reliability issues (based on very minimal research), the Xc is always an option but also need some modding on comfort which I am reluctant to do. Do like the look of it though but they should have made a Dakar version of it. The Tenere hasn't got the suspension I'd like it to have and really is too heavy for Australian oppurtunities and to me it doesn't look like a step up. Don't like the DR for the same reasons as all the above really. Too much like my old Tenere. TE seems like a trail bike really. Don't know much about it. Guess I'm dreaming about a 690 Adventure, but don't think it'll ever be built. Really, a well setup Dakar has the balance just right for RTW bike. So I guess I'll be working hard to fix those vibes. |
Thanks Chris.
This is the kind of information I really didn't want to hear about, but now I have I feel I should be doing something about it. I'm just not sure what though. My previous BMW experience is from the mid 80s when I bought a 7 year old R100RS. Over the next 2 years I did 200,000 miles on that bike with very few problems. BMW even gave me a new front wheel for it under a recall for suspected faulty castings. Looks like the faulty castings are still an issue 25 years later but not the willingness for a recall! |
Yeah, that is unacceptable. But again it's only the older models, so an informed consumer shouldn't have any worries about this.
Unfortunately for BM they don't understand the power of the internet because this is just another nail in the coffin of their reputation. Things like this could have happened in the pre-internet age without any off us ever knowing. Not anymore. |
That list is relevant beause most of the issues are the same on the GS (and Dakar)...
The headstock bearings in my opionion are due to low quality factory items, being undergreased at installation and not properly checked and tightened at first service after bedding in.. Although..... Most bikes don't get this either but the whole failure process is accelerated by the IDIOTIC design to house the bearings in a hot frame oil bath. The heat of the oil pretty much evaporates the grease out of the bearings. I would personally put taper bearings in and use a VERY high quality lithium high temperature grease and keep checking them for tightness. I've worked on and have personal experience of most of the common overlanders choice bikes and they are mostly so much easier to work on and better thought out than the F650GS/dakar. Big Enduro tanks are often easier to remove than stock items as they often do away with the radiator panels, vacumb pumps and hidden piping etc. I have an Africa Twin and a DRZ400S at the moment. The AT is no easy machine to work on either but its beauty is that it never breaks down, it never needs working on, it's bullet proof... The DRZ is more fragile but you can take it apart with a pair of spoons and a chocolate screwdriver. You can have the engine out in 30 mins !! It's got great suspension and a very reliable engine... not for everyone though. The vibes on the F650GS come and go it seems.... Poor suspension set up, a poorely balanced engine and the whole build quality seem to let it down. Having never ridden one at length though, I can't really comment. There's no perfect bike, they all have their faults, it just seems the F650 has more than its fair share with nothing really special to make up for it ???? I think the 600 Transalp, the DR650 and the Vstrom, XT660Z whoop the F650 series for a million reasons but they don't market as hard as BMW in this catagory. That said, plenty of F650GS's make it around the world with no problems, but I think thats mostly their owners don't even realise when something isnt right. They tend too be be a little wet behind the ears when it comes to mechanics or even bikes in general. A huge amount of newbie travellers buy them. The irony is, they bought the BMW because they thought it was the best quality and made for the job ! Great marketting again ! When I got into mechanics and overlanding (they went hand in hand), I thought the same too.. BMW is synonymous with quality is most peoples minds due to their cars and reputations of old. Sadly, it isnt the case with the f650GS !!! It's black and white, the numbers are there, the case studies are numerous, its FACT .. They break down and fall apart A LOT and when they do, they are EXPENSIVE to fix and a PAIN to fix ! Sorry if I insult any F650GS owners, I would be pissed if someone was slagging off my pride and joy too. |
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I have other bits of advice too, but will not submit them as they would only be for very cheap laughs:(. My opinion of BMW build quality is a matter of public/HUBB record. See you at the next Up North meet at Cropton in February? I recall you were both there last time we had a meet there. cheers Chris |
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I agree for the GS on the: · waterpump (although heaps of bikes haev them fail eventually although possibly not that early), · sump plug (needs a fumoto anyway), · shock (which most bikes have issues with overloaded), · battery (all overlanders need a maintenance free one though), · wires behind the shock adjuster (which need sorting out with a better shock anyway), · bent suspension linkage bolt (although mine weight 265 + fuel and rider and I rode it hard on Ruta40 but had no problem but it has happened to others), and surging (only the earlier models). But not the · Rusty Bar End Weights/Electronic Bits Cover, · Voltage Regulator, · Corroded Rims, · Worn Carb Needles, · Jets, O-Rings (4#), · Flaky/Depressed paint under Tank Allen Hex Bolts, · Cheesy/Rusty Exhaust Stud Nuts, · Check Rubber Carburettor Inlet Manifolds plus Oil Pipes from frame for cracking, · Rounded Fork Cap Bolts, · Shot Wheel Bearings, · Shot Clutch Actuator Arm Shaft</B> - · Possibly '94/'95 Soft Shafts or too Stiff Springs, · fuel Hose Hardening and Fuel-line Clamp Loosening, · Pull UP on the luggage rack at the back to make sure the welds of the (cheesy-ass) welds into which it bolts have not broken (yet), I'm not sure on the · Plug Caps & Leads (have heard about this on F650.com, but haven't experienced it), · Possibly Worn Rubber Seals on the Rocker Cover Bolts · Popping out of 2nd Gear, Worn Shifting Drum/Dogs, Difficulty Shifting 1st/2nd (note that the F650 is difficult even from NEW between 1st and 2nd) Quote:
I added grease to them at every service interval, but they still went at the 18000km mark on one bike. My new DRZ400E also had hardly any grease on all the bearing. So it's definately a must do on new bikes. Quote:
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The GS doesn't have the oil in the frame. So the bearings (which are tapered already) aren't affected by heat. Quote:
That's weird than, because I can honoustly say that out of th 3AJ Tenere, TTR250, F650 Dakar and the DRZE I wouldn't pick the F as the hard to work on bike. I love having the tank under the seat. To me it makes it easier. But really, can't think about anything out of the ordinary that needs doing which has access problems. The TTR is by far the easiest. Something like changing coolant is easier on the F than the DR IMHO. Quote:
It has to be a damaged mounting point. The change is just to sudden and severe to be something like wear. It's also too young. Quote:
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If I would have had any problems with something that BM or Rotax made I would agree. But it's simply not the case in my experience. Our trip went effortlessly with the exception of the shock (warranty) and the water pump for which I was prepared with the flexible hose and spares. On our rebuilt (from the ground up) Tenere’s we did have problems though. But it’s not easy to compare old with new. I think with the owners you hit the nail on the head. Most BM owners wouldn’t know how to do anything other than maybe change the oil. So you can’t really assume that the commonly reported faults would have been worked on either and might add to the number of reported issues. The amount of times I don’t read about issues that are well documented and are left unresolved before the trip is startling. That said, I do love the simplicity of my DRZ but it’s just too small for my liking for a RTW trip. I would love to take it around Mongolia though. |
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The other reason is that if it takes place when planned we'll be riding in India (neither Harleys nor BMWs!). Hope to see you at Ripley though. Regards Paul |
PaulD,
I am currently looking into the Vstrom 650 & the F650 GS... can you give me a few more comparisions on the pluses & minues as you see it? Also, you mentioned you were on a twin... this means you were on a 2008 or later model, correct? |
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have you looked in this sub-forum: http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/which-bike/ ? There are many comparison of bikes threads here. cheers Chris |
Hi Chris, thanks for the heads up, yes, I am aware of that forum... if you notice I started a thread there too a few days back.... it just seemed PaulD had some direct relevant experieince I could use that no one has addressed in the other thread.
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F650-V-Strom
Popex,
Yes I have ridden both the F650 Twin and the V-Strom on both off road and tarmac. Firstly off road the F650 was superior in heavy sand as I could control it better, I think mainly due to the 30 odd kg weight difference, now on corrogations the V-Strom just ate them up it was just alot smoother easier to handle allround. Tarmac well open roads I am afraid the V-Stom wins again, a more comfortable seat coupled with a more relaxed riding style, may be also the added weight could be an advantage as well. Now twistees and mountain roads the F650 Twin wins hands down, alot more ground clearance, a bit smaller so a bit nippier around the corners (Needs a better back tyre 'imo') So if I were to choose a bike for mainly around town to and from work with the odd weekend away I would choose the F650 Twin however if I were to do a RTW it would be a V-Strom. Hope this helps ! Thanks Paul:smartass: |
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