Warning: Before entering strange Countries with you own car read this:
 

This message has just reached me by today:

"Poor old Marc came to grief in good old England.

Marc arrived in England to be waved through by customs and he went on his merry way. When he reached Wigan a cop stopped him because he had strange number plates (from NZ) and after quite a friendly conversation he wanted to know about Marc's insurance.

Well, Marc didn't have any insurance - didn't know he had to have it. He wasn't allowed to go and get the insurance and present it to the police. He got arrested, handcuffed, taken away in a paddy wagon, and spent the night in a cell. The next morning the magistrates decided they were going to disqualify him for driving for 3 months, fined him everything he had in his wallet, and impound Marc's Nissan.

To get the Nissan out, Marc had to insure the vehicle. However he was told he could not insure the vehicle because he had to have a valid license to be able to insure it. It also had to be insured by a UK resident. Then he found out if he didn't get it out within 7 days they would crush his dearly beloved vehicle.
As you can imagine this was not looking good, and Marc was struggling to find a way of getting his vehicle out before they crushed it. We all sent lots of ideas to Marc, but it was very complicated - whoever insured the vehicle had to show the insurance papers to the police - couldn't fax them or anything like that.

One chap went along to the police station but got told that he had to own the vehicle to insure it, and they weren't allowed to change the ownership while the vehicle was in police custody. Marc then found an Aussie (who drives for a living in England) and they decided that they would put this chap on the insurance as a driver of Marc's vehicle. They went to the police station to insure the vehicle, only to find out that this Aussie only had 1 part to his license and he was supposed to have 2 parts. If he got pulled up he would also get his vehicle impounded.

Most of the locals were too scared of the police to get involved. So Marc stripped everything he could out of the vehicle thinking it was going to get scrapped. In a last ditch effort he got hold of a senior officer at the station who turned everything around and was going to go to the magistrates to try and get the whole thing turned around, but of course Marc felt his whole trip has been ruined by his dealings with the police and just wants to get home. So this chap has said that he will ensure the shippers can pick the vehicle up - which is supposed to happen on the 23rd April.

Since this he has found out that there is no way anyone can insure a foreign registered vehicle in the UK, even with a residential address. So there is actually no way that any foreign vehicle can come into the country unless it is registered in the UK.
But if Marc had done this he would have had trouble getting it back into NZ. So there was actually no way that Marc could tour the UK with his own vehicle.

But I wonder - do they let in any vehicles? What about French
registered vehicles? Does anyone know? Talk about making things
difficult.

And you think things are difficult in Libya Kuno?

So we expect Marc will be back in New Zealand soon after traveling to
20 countries in about 6 months of traveling, with no problems in any of
them until he reached good old England.

Sad that such an adventure finished in these circumstances."

Several things do not ring true here, but the over-riding fault is Marc's in not having insurance.

Unless insurance is unnecessary in his homeland, I have little sympathy.

I am the Worlds greatest 'corner cutter' of regulations but would NEVER drive/ride without 3rd party liability insurance. The consequences of a vehicle seriously injuring or killing anyone can be life changing - not just to the victim, but to the driver/rider, Irrespective to his own burden of guilt.

- - - - - -

Foreign registered vehicles are permitted to be driven in UK for up to 6 months, subject to the driver being licenced, insured and having a valid entitlement to be using the vehicle. Local laws must be abided with.

This 'right' derives from The Geneva Convention.

I am in a hurry right now, but will post links later.

Marc's story is certainly an eye-opener, but frankly it is difficult to believe that he didn't know that insurance is required in most countries. Maybe he knew that, but didn't know that the consequences could be so severe? Jeez, do at least a little research before driving in foreign countries!

I agree for sure that one should have an insurance. This is without a question - but obviously it was not possible to arrange such insurance once the need was declared. I did not speak to him myself but I cannot imagine that he did not try just everything to get such insurance then...

Sorry this is incorrect, I have personal experience of importing a French registered car into the Uk and obtaining temporary insurance cover from a UK insurance broker with only a postal address.

Also I now regularly drive back to the UK from France in my French registered and french insured car. I see the AA for New Zealand will insure online, Marc could insure his car in the country it is registered in, as while it's not compulsory in NZ, most people have it.

If any of those 20 countries included an EU member state Marc risked exactly the same thing as I know of no EU member state where car insurance isn't compulsory.

The moral of the story, I'm afraid is research beforehand and NEVER drive without insurance.

The DVLA's view of using non-EU registered vehicles in UK, and includes details of insurance requirements:-
Motor Insurance for visiting and imported vehicles : Directgov - Motoring

Try this HU thread for obtaining insurance in EU for non-EU vehicles:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...t=eu+insurance
I have not followed their links but feel sure that insurance is purchaseable even at a seemingly unreasonable cost.

For Marc to be in his plight suggests a total contempt or naievity. Surely, in planning and executing his drive to almost the antipode of his home, he must have been sufficiently aware of the important of having insurance - to comply with local laws as much for his own peace of mind.

The UK, in having a fairly efficient punishment/deterrent process, is not at fault, although the laxity of other countries on the way could instill a false sence of security.

To blame the British Police (no friends of mine) or the UK for his sorry mess is disingenuous indeed.

I hope it all goes smoothly for him from now on.

If you see Marc, tell him to look here

https://aaionline.aainsurance.co.nz/...ublic/index.do

If I can find it in two seconds from France, I'm sure he can.

Marc is getting off lightly
 

I understand that vehicle insurance is not compulsory in NZ: can someone over that way confirm this?

As for the story: yes, there are aspects that simply do not add up.
However, crushing of illegal vehicles in the UK was introduced a while ago as a means of dealing with the vast array of such 4 and 2 wheelers that are on the roads of the UK, often in the hands of uninsured drivers etc etc i.e. no licence, banned already from driving - the list of offences just goes on and on.
As an aside, property can be seized on the grounds of suspicion alone, under newish powers for the police: if you can't show that you have the means to support the lifestyle that you are living then you may get a dawn call from the police - in recent past, they have seized houses, cars etc etc - whatever is present basically.

Thanks for all your links. Hope that he reads this and can make use of it!

On the other hand .....................
 

................. I may have been a bit harsh in saying that Marc is getting off lightly.
If he can claim that he is a persecuted minority in his home country, in all probability he will get a new car given to him along with free accommodation etc while his claim for asylum is considered.

This was Marc's real naivity.

True enough, i was in NZ '04 and vehicle insurance was not a compulsory requirement. Very laid back. But driving through some 20 countries without some kind of liability cover... unreal!:nono:

...Plenty of Polish cars driving around Aberdeen....one of which clobbered my Discovery on a roundabout. He was insured by Tesco!

It's an interesting tale, which sounds almost plausible, but
must surely become an Urban Legend...

That's not ignorance, that's stupidity. I don't even cross the channel without letting my insurer know I'm going and to confirm I'm covered for both accidents and breakdown in whatever country.

Not true. You can insure a vehicle on a UK provisional licence. I'm assuming your mate hasn't even passed his test in his home country, in which case he has also been driving illegally in the rest of Europe too. It's just unfortunate that he wasn't stopped earlier.

Again, not true. Contact Neil/Kentfallen for confirmation of this as he's an ex-bike cop.

Are you sure this is the British Police and not the Stasi or Gestapo we're talking about here?

So to sum up, we've got a uninsured, unlicenced driver who thinks it's everyone's fault except his own that his trip has been ruined and his car was seized and will probably be crushed. Is that about right or have I missed something here?

People drive in the Americas all the time with out insurance. I can see how some of us may get in to Marc's problem real fast. cross the border in to Colombia say uncrate your bike ride it out cop pulls you over "Do you Colombia insurance?" No "Oh well in Colombia that means your bike did not enter fully legal you comiting a crime and all on it, your going to jail till the court decides to try you in a year or so I own your bike now we do that now to cut down rich gringos bribing there way out of problems have a nice time".
How many know that in most if not all South America now have state required insurance?

Or how bout the USA where insurance is ran state by state? who knows all the state insurance and vehicle requirements? In Washington state you dont need insurance on a bike. Cross from Canada ask the border gaurd if you need insurance he will say no. Drive down to Californa get stopped near the border and some anil cop looking to save the world can impound your bike arest you then if they dont like you, your story, your bike, your kit you can be the guest of homeland security. After all that your visa will be up your bike in little pices in a box. You will be deported. It dose not happen because the USA dose not want it to.

Dont mock a poor traveler that lost his trip and his ride because they dint know or tryed to save a few bucks.

That said I have insurance and it is not need on my bike, the risk is too big. in other countries some "rich" grengo on a bike must look like a score to cops and conmen.

We drove from Turkey to Cape Town without any valid insurance. The plan was to buy it from border to border but were advised by many it wasn't worth the paper it was written on so we continued with only a badly photocopied insurance certificate valid for only Europe which worked at borders and for police checks. It was a cheap old land rover and our attitude was that the vehicle would probably breakdown and be abandoned along the way but it just kept going. Brakes failed in the dessert in Namibia so we had to drive 250km with no brakes before we figured out how to do a temporary repair. But it was a risk we took and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone without understanding the possible consequences... Suffice to say the old girl made it all the way back up to Kenya then back down to Zambia before her timing belt snapped and she rests there to this day.

what do you expect from a third world country?
 

Whilst I agree with some of the critisism of a traveller not knowing the laws of the land I'm afraid the way the police dealt with this person is indicative of the authoritarian almost third world nature of policing in this country. If this happened abroad it would cause all manner of outrage and contempt for that country.

This man was not a criminal and a little common sense on behalf of the police could have sorted this out in minutes.

On the list of the world's countries the UK has to be one to avoid. Unless of course you a Chinese government thug attacking UK residents in their own country in which case you get full police protection.

United Kingdom = Third World Country

To you first question, Craig76; at least I am sure that it was neither Gestapo nor Stasi. First of all since they do not exist any more and second since none of those organisations task was some sort of trafic-control. Third, nobody except you brought the "methods" of the British Police near to the other two organisations you have mentioned. But I must admit: I have no experience with the British Police and cannot comment on their "methods".

You sum up / I comment:

A) Correct; he did obviously not have an insurance which was valid for UK.
B) I cannot confirm that he did not have a drivers licence. Cannot imagine that he could have crossec that many countires with out a drivers licence.
C) Nobody mentioned that it was "everybodies fault than his own". A fact remains that he obviously could not solve the problem in UK. And this is a pitty - if he was wrong or not!

Personally I do not like the expression "Third World Country" in context with any country in the world. Let us better say that each country has its speciaities.


Two more statements from my side:

Now, Marc is acused from many sides because he was wrong. I even got the impression, that some posters think that it is right, if the UK Authorities crash his car. Is this the same forum, where people were seeking for and receiving advice for ways to avoid the guide (who is mandatory by law) when travelling Libya (for example)?

I met Marc in Libya last year. We had lng discussions, about his car. How to bring it in - and then later back to Egypt. So; I could not confirm that he was just a careless traveller at all.

---

I would say that something went wrong in UK. And soemhow I cannot avoid the impression that the UK Authorities could have provided a little bit more help / advice to make it possible that he could have continued his journey (to the Americas).

---

Had just recent experiences with two Embassies. The one of an important country belonging to the EU was just doing, what one could prove they had to do. The other one of a not so important country appologized that they were not allowed to do what was requested but gave helpful information on how to solve the problem properly. Case A took 6 weeks to be solved and a similar case B took 4 days then.

Kuno2
Despite your spirited defence of your pal, following your initial post, I still stand by the first line of the first reply - mine. Look back and re-read it. Just the first line says it all

The guy has been exceedingly stupid, naieve or arrogant in my view. Possibly all three.

Whatever happens in NZ, did he really think it was acceptable to wander into countries around the World where transport systems and judiciaries may be more developed (for better or worse) or at least different, without ever taking the simple steps to enquire what are the legal minimum requirements to enter and use their roads?

The simplest of Google searches for 'UK' plus any 2 or 3 of the following words would give him plenty of information. Importing. Visiting. Vehicles. Insurance. Driving. Legal requirements.

You say the guy was 'waved through by Customs and went on his merry way'. That suggests he chose not to declare or enquire, thereby implying he accepted he was aware and responsible for what he was doing, and was doing nothing wrong. Using the Green Channel (or not stopping) means exactly that. If in doubt he should have asked then - but he preferred to put his 'merry way' first.

The report within your initial post seems highly and unreasonably biased and critical of the UK and/or its Police, Judiciary, and punishment/deterrant processes. Even the title you gave to your thread was less than gratious.

As is the view of the other posters here, I find his/your attitude unreasonable. The guy went to the UK without any regard to the Laws there or finding out about them. Now, it seems from your last post, he/you think others should have informed him - but surely the onus is on a traveller is to learn rather than be taught. Or are my values too old fashioned?

I can understand him smarting from having been found out,and not liking the consequences, but to start 'slagging off' the working of the host country he has chosen to visit, following an almost total disregard of their conventions and rules, really takes the biscuit.

I feel I can contribute nothing further to this thread.

The bureaucracy (see Marc), the inefficiency (Heathrow), the food, the weather, the cost, the scruffy hotels, the arrogant natives, the terror politics ... why would anyone travel to that backwards developing country anyway ... ?

Sorry for being sarcastic, but Marc's story is a good eye-opener about the double-standards in our "richer" home countries.

Hi Tony; my first post was clearly defined as a quote of a message which had reached me. I do agree that it is the travellers obligation to find out about the conditions, rules and laws of the host country BEFORE he enters, if he wants to avoid trouble with the host (for example; we must be aware that the British are driving on the "right" side).

I can understand as well that the British have tightened their traffic law. If it is true that UK is somewhat like invaded by Polish and a mass of cars which are not according to the regulation - they had to do something (and honestly; all those cars were destined for scrap anyway. Only; the former owner avoided the cost, sold it away to Poland and they bring it to UK now :-)).

But you are right. I am biased a little bit since I do live in a non-european country. I have learned here that the law is the law and that means it is what people make out of it. If people have the good intention - then most of the cases can be solved in a proper manner without big difficulties.

Upon reflection perhaps my characterisation of the UK as a "Third world country" was a little unfair. On Third world countries! Banana republic would be more accurate.



There here are two stories here; the naivety of a traveller in not understanding the need for insurance and the authoritarian, draconian way in which the police chose to deal with the crime. This outsider’s view puts the modern UK into some perspective and shows what it has become which we living here do not always realise.




Let us turn this around and suppose that that person did indeed have insurance and then had all his hard earned worldly possessions stolen, a highly likely probability in this thieving country. The very most this person could expect from the police would be a crime number for his insurance claim. In asking what the police might actually do to recover his stolen property he might meet the same response I did when the third of my bikes was stolen from me in as many years and told (and I quote) to “piss off and stop wasting our time”. Pressing further for some real investigation, three weeks later I myself got a visit from the CID and was investigated for stealing my own bikes. Un-bloody-believable.

Third world country or banana republic? Not really, it’s not like we will have corrupt arms deals, mandatory identity cards, internal borders, mass surveillance, DNA databases, internment without trial etc etc etc…not for a couple of years at least!

@ Fastship. Which is the country you are talking about?

(My bike was stolen once as well - not in UK!- and thanks god, our police has catched the thief just shortly afterwards. I got it back in best condition even with a filled tank!. Months later, at a weekend which was also a religious holiday, I entered our lovely country from "outside" at a lonely & remote border control... I had to spend quite a good while with them, since the police had failed to delete the case from the books...)

no insurance
 

I just cannot believe some of the attitudes expressed on this thread.....and these are supposed to be from seasoned open-minded travellers.....KUNO2...you have come on to slag the U.K. and defend your mate with NO INSURANCE....I would have loved to see your attitude if you were say, in the U.K., driving home on your new 1200GS :scooter:just collected from the dealer and Marc whacks it and bends the frame with his un-insured car...:censored:!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!
The whole point of this website is for info on traveling away..how much effort does it take to ask a question on here about U.K.insurance...anyone with some sense..( actually quite a few on here) can see that your friend has just GONE FOR IT...ie lets see how far I can get with no insurance= good tale to tell in the pub at the end of it all.....only his luck has run out in the U.K. and NOW you come on the HUBB to bleat about it.

I'd like to point out that if he travelled through France, and had been stopped he'd have had pretty much the same treatment. The French are clamping down hard on uninsured cars and will confiscate them too. They'll either then be sold or crushed depending on their market value. They recently impounded something like 50 uninsured Jersey orwned cars which were parked in the long term car park at Dinard airport and were being used by Jersey residents when they flew over. Bye bye cars.

Also Marc would probably have had a harder time as he would have had to communicate in French.

Kuno2 - I guess you can answer this, did Marc's journey take him through any other European countries or did he ship directly from Africa to the UK?

So as has been said over and over the moral of the story is check the rules of the road before you drive in the country, ignorance is and never has been any defence under law.

Oh and Fastship I'd suggest you emigrate, mate, I did.

@bobbyrandall; the first time a see a picture of the "new 1200GS"!

Hey, come on; I think I made it quite clear that I am fully in line with that each vehicle has to be insured. That's out of question. I even have a full insurance for my old Landrover although the local legal requirement would be satisfied with some sort of a proforma insurance to the cost of a few local crackers.

But this story must have happened centuries ago; yes?


Oh, yes, definitely! Although some people may doubt that those from NZ speak English ;-)

As far as I know, he crossed GREECE, SWITZERLAND (ooooooooooooook, that is not really Europe) and GERMANY as well.

Correct. Nothing to be added.

I am talking about the United Kingdom

In London not so long ago two policemen held down a Brazilian man on an underground train whilst a third emptied and entire clip from his Glock into the back of the man's head. The Chief of Police later attempted to lie about the facts and stop any independent investigation. No one was ever prosecuted. The Brazilian's crime? He looked foreign.

It is WELL in hand :thumbup1:

Why was this guy handcuffed?
Was he offering resistance towards the policemen?

BTW, how is it possible that nobody asked him about insurance when stamping his passport when entering the EU or the UK (border passport control, not customs)? (It even seems that when entering the UK -not a Schengen country- his passport was not stamped, which means they allowed him to enter the UK illegally -unless they were very busy, which is the only exception which justifies not to stop him and stamp his passport under the EU regulations-) :confused:

But please check out about insurance first!

-----

Thought that all those sad stories about UK are only some sort of bad propaganda in the yellow press. Is it really like this?

Yes, they are written by Chinese Government agents in revenge to the sabotage of the Olympic Games. ;)

No
 

No -The Uk is great.

I love it! Maybe I am having a 'half full' day though :)

I don't think you've told us the full story here but I'll humour you.

My point is that you said...

...which is quite frankly horseshit.

The British Police tend to be quite amicable if you know how to deal with them. Thank you for informing me that the Gestapo and Stasi are no longer in existence. I'll let you know if I need a history lesson.

My second point is that 3rd party insurance is compulsory in the UK, as is a valid licence. I'm just about to pay out £400 UK pounds for insurance on my 12 year old Alfa Romeo. I have a clean licence, no penalty points and no criminal records. My insurance as well the insurance payments of every other law abiding driver in the UK is going up every year to cover the payouts to individuals and families affected by incidents involving uninsured drivers. I've paid for the right to have an opinion on this so don't lecture me or anyone else about how things should be in a country you don't even live in.

I'm in full agreement with Tony P. Your mate is a muppet. He either didn't do his research before travelling or chose to deliberately ignore the legal requirements of the countries he was travelling through. I suspect it is the latter so I have no sympathy at all for him. And while on the subject, insurers take a very dim view of anyone prosecuted for driving uninsured. If the police do take action, it will be very unlikely he'll be able to get cover so he's effectively lost his car.

here here bravo well said that man

So can I summarise this so far?

Marc is a fool and an idiot (or not).
Fastship hates the UK and all who sail in her.
Fastship doesn't know the full facts about the Brazilian incident.
The British Police are heavy handed and lazy gits.
The UK Customs and Immigration don't do their job properly.
There are great wadges of information out there on the legal requirements for a vehicle in the UK.
Opinions are split as to whether you should be able to get away with breaking the law of that land, or not.
Jersey residents are too rich anyway.

Ok so far?
Sorry for the interruption, pray continue.

For my pennies worth - after a very good mate of mine was killed on his bike by an uninsured and disqualified driver, causing his wife and newly born kid untold distress, I applaud the actions of the fine (unarmed, generally helpful, polite and uncorrupt) Police.

Dear Craig; it is new to me that you have to pay to have the right to tell your opinion. I have spent a good part of my life in a part of the world where it is not always easy to tell his opinion in an open way - and so I hope that in UK you still can have your opinion without paying for it.

Please tell me, why one should not be allowed to have an opinion and to tell it about a country he is not living in? What are you and all the others mainly discussing in this forum? About the country you are living in?

And - please - stay correct: I have clearly said that I have no experience with your police and therefore cannot comment on their methods; true or not?

Great stuff! I didn't realise there is a slightest chance for such a trivial subject to make people come out of the woodwork and offer opinion and advice. The more so as it has nothing to do with Sahara travel. :clap:

Oh yes, it has very mucho to do:
it seems that the guy was in the Sahara before going to the UK.
I think that that is more than enough. ;)

BTW, what about a thread about Iran's nuclear programme?
The Touareg conflict has lots to do with the uranium mines in Arlit. :)

Please moderators, move this to another section of the forum (please don't delete it).

onlyMARK - I absolutely adore this country and will defend it with my life which is why I am so distressed that those who did actually defend it with their lives (including many ANZACS) are being betrayed by those who are only too willing to give away the freedoms they fought and died for.

I know as many facts about Jean Charles de Menezes being summarily executed by "fine unarmed(!), generally helpful, polite and uncorrupt British police" as anyone.

You must be able to infer from KUNO2 in the way he writes and what he says "I have spent a good part of my life in a part of the world where it is not always easy to tell his opinion in an open way" that he may just be from one of those places which did not have the freedoms so many people in this country are so casually prepared to give away, even demand that they are taken away in fact.

This thread is absolutely on topic in this forum as some of us are going to the Sahara and would hope to be treated with more compassion there than this guy seems to be here. He had good intentions, he ought to have been insured but he wasn't. It's everything that happened after that is just wrong.

We are all travellers and should treat fellow travellers in our country as we would hope to be treated in theirs. The contrast between the hospitality I have received from people in places who had no reason to be friendly to me or any Brit and the downright hostility I see towards this guy here outrages me but sadly, is eloquent testimony to modern Britain. You should all be ashamed. I try to respect the laws of the countries I travel in but would be horrified to be treated in the way this guy was in mine. For it to happen in my own country simply confirms some of the things that have gone wrong with this country as does the way he is being attacked in this forum.

Craig76 - explain to me why I have trouble getting insurance because after paying up to £1200 per year fully comp. and having two GSXR's and one Fireblade stolen over a period of little more than three years it's my fault?

KONO2 - you said: "Thought that all those sad stories about UK are only some sort of bad propaganda in the yellow press. Is it really like this?" well judge for yourself from some of the opinions expressed here.

Only in tonight's evening newspaper where I live was there an article boasting that my city would soon have the most advanced CCTV mass surveillance network of cameras not just of any UK city but of any city anywhere in the world AND THEY WERE ACTUALLY BOASTING OF THIS!

I'm just waiting now for someone to respond with the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" line...

As one wise American once said "People who are willing to give up freedom for the sake of short term security, deserve neither freedom nor security.

I hope you friend does come back to the UK, it is the most beautiful, diverse and interesting island in the world and most of the people are liberal, laidback and welcoming. Unfortunately there are a great many who are xenophobic freedom hating arseholes - but we got 'em on the run!
:mchappy:

There are two sorts of country as far as insurance is concerned - those where it is a legal requirement and where failure to comply with this requirement is dealt with harshly and those where insurance is for all intents and purposes meaningless.

The UK, Europe, and North America certainly falls into the first category. (Arguably the UK economy is based on crappy service industries like insurance). Not to drive with insurance is therefore very unwise and I don't think anyone really has much sympathy for Marc. I must admit that I have ridden and driven in countries where insurance is less of an issue but that is something you weigh up before you go and pay the consequences for if you get caught without it.

Sadly insurance premiums are not going up as a result of uninsured people having accidents. They are going up because as soon as the garage knows it is an "insurance job" it doubles the quote and that anyone involved knows that "where there's blame there's a claim" and comes down with life threatening whiplash injuries that take the lawyers years to sort out. I'm the most cynical skeptic as far as insurance is concerned.

For most people, the police in the UK tend to be quite fair compared to say the US and the gestapo. However I must say that crushing seized cars is outrageous - "put it on e-bay" (to quote a certain A Hitler on that great You Tube vid that's doing the rounds) and give the money to a good cause. On the whole you get away with a lot in the UK because the police are busy filling in forms and laws don't really get enforced. In fact the ones that do tend to be easy pickings rather than the more serious ones and for this reason many people are disillusioned with the police forces in the UK.

Most amusing thread this one............

Although I assume that I will be the only one, who does not know, who said this - I dare to ask the name of this person?

---

I had asked once a chap in another country, where the gouvernment just recently started to erect this ugly cameras at each and every corner, if he fears that... "No," he said "if you see how our gouvernment is maintaining the rest of its installations, you can be sure that it will either never work or suffer a serious breakdown very soon. And be sure that the men behind the screens will either not be on duty, sleeping or just be busy with something else." This was at least near to the SAHARA ;-)

---

And this has just happened IN the SAHARA: An accident left two foreigners badly injured (although insured!) at a remote spot amidst the sand dunes.

Though having full insurance for their vehicles and a contract for re-patriation with a medical flight, permission to have access to the best hospitals in the world - they had a problem. There was no doctor, no hospital and no LG for the foreign medi-plane to land. Such kind of insurance is not useless but it could not help them in their bad situation.

First aid was given by one of their comrades. Then somebody contacted their Embassy (one with only a very few people belonging to a very small and unimportant country). The employee of the Embassy, until long after the regular office hours, managed to contact the airforce of the "bad country" and could convince them to send a chopper for help.
Before I bother you too long with the story: I asked, what would be charged to those unlucky travellers... "Well," was the answer "Tourists often don't know the rules of the desert and bring themselves in a bad situation. But we want them to bring back home a good impression and we were asked for help. Normally we do not charge this."

I know, the situation is naturally not comparable with the one Marc was in. People coming to developped countries can easily inform themselfes in the I-net etc. and they have to follow the rules. Therefore we can separate between the "First" and the other worlds.

Really really enjoyed this thread... couldn't help myself.... it's like an illness or something... I have to reply!

Police - UK Police - what a really really fine bunch of men. Seriously, what a fantastic body of people who do such a tuff job. You meet the occasional arse - but you get that everywhere. Obviously being bikers we're slightly more likely to be pulled by her majesties finest - and in all those times I've never been treated with anything but respect and patience - even when pulled over for being really rather silly... obviously they respectfully and patiently give me a ticket and some points..... but that was my own fault... how could I possibly turn around and blame the police for enforcing the law of the land?

The last time I got pulled was for turing down a 'no left turn' street - I didn't see the sign but I did it right in front of a police car - unsurprisingly got pulled over and given a penalty ticket for £30 - wanted to argue - didn't see the sign - walked back up the street and I swear it's the biggest sign you've ever seen - how I missed it I'll never know... but does that mean I shouldn't have to pay the fine? Is it right that we start to allow the police force the discretion on wether or not someone has broken the law? Isn't that starting to put the judiciary and police force into the same body? I find that rather disturbing.

And bringing the tube shooting into this thread is really rather silly - what on earth has it got to do with driving without insurance? However - I know I know :helpsmilie: - I'm going to respond.

I'm not going to get into the details of that incident as I believe you mentioned it as a demonstration of how bad our police are. What I could do here now is go through a list of how fantastic the British police are - I suspect I'll find a lot more of those than you'll find shooting of innocent people.

In fact let's take the metropolitan area of London for a moment. Last year armed officers in our capital drew weapons less than 30 times. 30 times in the whole year. They were discharged 5 times. 3 of those resulted in death. These are hardly the statistics of a corrupt and dangerous police force. I'm not saying what happened on the tube was 'right' I am agreeing it was totally wrong - what I am saying is it's not indicative of the British police force - more so of the British special services - and frankly I don't have the information on how many times MI5 and the other special services dew weapons in this country and having had no dealings with them I certainly can't comment on how 'corrupt' they are - my own feelings? I doubt it very much.

Annnnyway. (home run now) :clap:

If I'm traveling anywhere the most basic research I do is what I 'need' in order to travel in the country. When entering Russia what documents do I need? When I cross the border into Morocco what is expected?

Then I weigh up the 'value' of each of those things against the consequences of not having them. So my Russian visa - very very important consequence of not having it? Not getting in the country.

Russian Insurance? Value is small, consequences if I don't have it? It'll cost me more at the road side to deal with than at the border - may as well get it.

EU countries... Insurance? Legal requirement. Consequences if I don't have it? Car will get crushed. Guess what I'm going to do?

I've not met Marc, I've not got the whole story, and it wouldn't be fair for me to comment on his individual circumstances - perhaps the whole thing played out as stated in the first post - perhaps the first post was written from a slightly biased point of view - perhaps the police were beastly. Who knows for sure?

One thing I am sure of, if Marc comes back to an EU country again, he'll make damn sure he has a relevant license and insurance.

Benjamin Franklin

This episode exposes the nasty authoritarian streak that run through British society but I remember when the helmet laws were introduced in this country and there was one eccentric old guy riding a Honda 50 who persistently ignored the law and spent many of his later years in prison as a consequence. He said it wasn't the helmet that was the issue, it was freedom of choice, the thin end of the wedge. How we mocked him then. Then one day I woke up in a country that puts four year old little girls under surveillance and can criminalise you for putting too much rubbish in your bin. How sad. :frown:

Read my post again. Insurance is a legal requirment but costs are rising in the UK. Therefore, the knock on effect is that driving without insurance is also on the increase. It's a chicken and egg situation really. When these uninsured drivers crash into insured drivers, the insurer of the legal driver has to pay out huge amounts of cash in the litigation that follows, most of it in legal costs rather than compensation. The knock on effect is that your insurance costs go up and if you're staying fully legal, you're paying for the people that choose not to bother. Effectively, we are subsidising these people so they can go on their merry way with no insurance. This is what I mean when I say we've paid with our hard earned cash for that right to have a opinion.

The point overall is that even if we go to France for a long weekend, we get headlamp converters, carry 1st aid kits, hi-vis waistcoat, spare bulbs and fuses, check our insurance covers us, read up on different traffic laws such as speed limits, etc. We make an effort to ensure we stay as legal as possible in a country in which we are a guest. I don't see what your problem is. Your mate chose to break the law in countries he was visiting and got caught. It's sad that this ruined his trip but how is it anyone's fault except his own?

Fastship, I was recently quoted £1300 for an Aprilia RSV-R so I know how you feel. My mate had an old YZF750 taken from his garage and dragged over the roof's of both his and his wife's car. Try filling out the claims forms for that little lot.

@ matcbf60; thanks for your statement. I conclude that your police is not much different than the police in other states. So, there is still hope! Good to know.

Just arrived in the US from the UK and have woken up early so these kind of threads are great for passing some time!

I guess being a good visitor to a country simply comes down to respecting the local laws and customs and not simply saying "that's not the way we do it at home so I won't here". It's so easy to take the moral high ground though but from time to time you just cannot follow the local laws for various reasons.

Is this about the police? I don't think so - they're just enforcing the law and are in the firing line in the UK mainly as a result of government policy. People's perception of the police is that they are there to tackle crime but they don't see any real action when they experience say an attack in the street or a theft of a vehicle. They just end up a statistical victim with a crime reference number and there is never any investigative action because the chance of securing a conviction is so slim. At the same time a "less serious" traffic misdemeanor often results in a fine and points on the license. As Matt says you can't argue that you did nothing wrong but it is easy to feel frustrated that the law treats people this way.

Perhaps it is high profile incidents like the Menezes shooting that bring the British police into disrepute. A very rare example indeed but it's my opinion that there are some very heavy handed police operations - anti terrorism in particular but look too at that disappeared canoeist that did a Lazarus. His wife when she returned from Panama was arrested by some very burly looking armed police at the airport - you'd have though Osama Bin Laden was coming in to watch an Arsenal match. Completely ridiculous.

It is easy to criticize without offering a solution. My view is that if you are uninsured and you get caught then there is a reasonable fine to pay and a short ban. That should be a deterrent - there's no need to crush cars in a situation like this. I hear that Customs and Excise order the crushing of many cars when people are caught "smuggling" in cheap cigarettes from the continent. It just seems wrong to do this. If you have an accident and you are uninsured then that is more serious and should result in a very large fine, ban and maybe jail in the case of serious injury being caused.

Personally I hate insurance and all it stands for - the system is just not fair. That's another rant for another occasion.

Rather than go too far off topic I'll try and keep it as short as I can.
Fastship, you have said -
1) " United Kingdom = Third World Country"
2) "authoritarian almost third world nature of policing in this country."
3) " On the list of the world's countries the UK has to be one to avoid."
4) " Upon reflection perhaps my characterisation of the UK as a "Third world country" was a little unfair. On Third world countries! Banana republic would be more accurate."
5) "authoritarian, draconian way in which the police chose to deal with the crime."
6) " It is WELL in hand" in reply to emigrating.
7) "For it to happen in my own country simply confirms some of the things that have gone wrong with this country"
8) "I absolutely adore this country and will defend it with my life"
9) "it is the most beautiful, diverse and interesting island in the world and most of the people are liberal, laidback and welcoming."

You are emigrating, yes? So, do you like the UK or not?
Your conflicting statements have my poor little brain in a spin.

Too complex to summarise here but yes I do love this country which is why it breaks my heart to see it gone the way it has.

There are miriad reason why I won't bring up a family here and laid one upon the other they make the decision to join the other half million who leave each year rather easy. Great truths lay in small things; there is something very deeply and profoundly wrong with a country that puts a four year old little girl under surveillance.

And that is my last word on this subject. I'm off for a blast:

P.S. ORWELL WROTE HIS MASTERPIECE "1984" AS A WARNING, NOT AS A TEMPLATE. :mchappy:

I love the English thing, really.
Among other things the U.K. has created the Land Rovers and above all the U.K. created English sense of humor.
I'm sorry about Mr Marc but this thread was a bit like a Monty Python show.

No wonder many English love those desolated places this Forum is really about.

Cheers !

Now that I agree with 110%.

Monty Python's Flying Circus or Fawlty Towers - we can do it all
 

Thanks for that Armadillo and quite right, the Brits are pretty good at organising chaos.
That will be the saving grace as to why the big brother* thing for the UK will, ultimately, never succeed.

* A statistic I read recently (warning: on the internet so it may be wrong) is that the UK has 20% of all the worlds' CCTV cameras.

Very good; now it becomes personal - my beloved LR has left me alone 3 times in the Sahara last year.

This has been an interesting thread, but honestly i'm quite appalled by the blood-thirsty which-hunt attitude by many of the posters. It appeared to me that Marc, who did fail to research and purchase insurance, made an honest effort to rectify the situation he got himself into, but was stonewalled by beureaucracy and in the end, got his car crushed. This is bad enough, when all the authorities had to do was jail him (which they did) Make him pay a fine (which they did) Allow him to get the required insurance and/or kick his sorry ass out of the country, but instead, like true thieves, they took everything that was his, denied him the opportunity to get it back and crushed a perfectly good car, which i'm sure the Gov't will sell for scrap. If that isn't bad enough, some people here actually applaud these actions! Marc isn't a child molester or a drug dealer. He's not selling children out of his trunk, and he didn't have an accident causing anybody personal injury. His only crime was ignorance. Is that crime really worth being denied an opportunity to fix the problem? Is it worthy of getting your vehicle crushed? If it is really such a serious offense, why are people not made aware of this when entering the country? In Colombia you are frequently warned what will happen to you if you try to smuggle drugs out of the country. In the US and Canada it is posted quite regularly the consequenses of both DUI and driving without insurance. At the Canadian boarder you are warned not to enter with firearms. When you enter Nicaragua or Costa Rica, you need to buy insurance at the boarder or they won't let you enter. In most states (that i know of) if you get caught driving without insurance, you are fined, maybe thrown in jail but rarely are people denied the opportunity to get their car back. I find this action by the UK authorities to be extreme and over the top, but i'm even more shocked at the lack of sympathy shown for such unreasonable actions. I've never felt the need to visit England, and now i think i know why.

Considering that he got the car from New Zealand to the UK, apparently driving through at least a couple of other countries en route, I find it virtually impossible to believe that he didn't know that he was supposed to have insurance. In the UK like the other countries I suspect that he figured it was cheaper for him to skip insurance, and damn the consequences for him AND OTHERS if he got into an accident. I don't think he was ignorant, but rather an irresponsible freeloader.

Sooo, if he gets caught without insurance he should just have to pay a small fine and get insurance? That rewards him for being a deadbeat and pushing the cost/risk to others, because the chance of him getting caught are slim. How many people would forego insurance if the only penalty was to have to get the insurance if you get caught? That doesn't make sense at all.

Your idea about posting signs about the requirement for insurance is superficially appealing, but not very practicable. Should they also post signs about the need obey speed limits or get a ticket? Or not to drink and drive? Or about the need to quarantine pets? Or about the million other things required by law in every jurisdiction? How about if people traveling somewhere spend two minutes online to see what they need to do to obey the basic rules of the road?

[EDIT: I should add that I think the car-crushing part is over the top and a real waste of resources. But, I think that the penalty should be very substantial (and have little sympathy for claims of "ignorance").

With this i agree. Never said anything about a "small fine". Make it hurt, 1-2 thousand pounds maybe? A few nights in jail, but deliberately making it impossible for him to retrieve his car and crushing it is quite draconian IMHO.
Seriously now, how many of us who have ventured beyond the security of our boarders have purchased liability insurance for every country? Is it even possible?? Gas is $1.20 a litre in N.America, and who knows what kind of prices you guy's pay in Europe, we can barely afford to leave the country, let alone buy insurance. The guy's who are slamming Marc for his un-fortunate turn of events, can you all honestly say you have purchased liability insurance for every country you have entered? If i enter a country and i know they will not only extort all my money and throw me in jail, but will also deny me any opportunity to retrieve my vehicle and crush it within a week, guarenteed i will buy insurance, or avoid it all together. I've searched for an hour, and other than this thread I can find no information stating that these are the actions taken by the Authorities in England. If i'm missing something, please enlighten me.

All these examples exist in nearly every country i've been through in the America's, including $2000 fine for littering (BC) Fereral offence to discard cigarrette buts from your vehicle (I think it was California or Oregon) And stating that insurance is mandatory (Nicaragua)
I'm still looking for a page that states that england will crush your car if you don't have insurance, please help, my two minutes is up.

That statement goes to the heart of one of the problems with people nowadays. The problem that if they do something wrong they don't blame themselves, they blame someone else, anybody else but themselves.
In is never their own fault for not taking responsibility for their actions, or lack of action.
Instead they cast around for someone to blame.

Car crushing in UK
 

Without getting into the moral issues that the discussion has thrown up, here is the governments position (from 2004):


Measures to crack down on the menace of uninsured motorists will include pro-active use and cross matching of databases, resulting in cars being seized and crushed.

The action announced by Department for Transport Road Safety Minister David Jamieson will require some major IT project work - to link the DVLA's Vehicle Register and the Motor Insurance Databases, allowing police to know which vehicles on the road are uninsured,

The Government's tough new approach will target the estimated one million motorists on our roads driving without insurance.


The Department for Transport plans to:
> Give the police the power to seize and, in appropriate cases, destroy vehicles that are being driven uninsured,
> Link the DVLA's Vehicle Register and the Motor Insurance Databases, allowing police to know which vehicles on the road are uninsured,

There's loads of references to this but the above came from DVLA & motor insurance databases will be linked to crack down on uninsured cars :: PublicTechnology.net :: e-Government & public sector IT news + job vacancies:

Check your facts Walkabout, you are wrong! In fact HALF of the worlds CCTV cameras are here in the UK - one camera for every 14 people.

As if to make the point, have a look at the graphic below of the former home of George Orwell in London to see something that ought to shock you - 24 cameras within 500 metres of his house.


Your point about the incompetance of the UK authorities is a good one. Where I live (Liverpool) as in many other cities there are "Automated Number Plate Recognition Cameras" many of which are fitted to police cars and bikes. They continuosly scan number plates and compare them to various databases (we are all under surveillance) . Of relevance to this thread, if they pick up a number plate for which no (insurance) match is available on the database the vehicle is stopped and confiscated. The occupants walk home. I have read of pregnat women, entire families and pensioners being put on the street in any weather, at any time of day or night often in not the safest parts of town.

Outside police headquaters here in Liverpool the police proudly display confiscated cars scheduled for crushing, I guess in a lame attempt to intimidate. As we see, the anomolies in the system simply make them look like pratts and they bring policing into disrepute.

You can see one of the cameras on top of a police car in the graphic below.



Here is where the "imcompetant British" and the authoritarianism starts to come into play. There is a backlog for entering insurance details onto the database so there are millions of perfectly legally insured vehicles with no entry on the database. The Police however, make no accomodation for these anomolies. Your vehicle is taken. Just as an aside, the police are pressing for this to be a chargable offence in order for them to take your DNA for their ever increasing DNA database (are you seeing a pattern here yet?). The reason that there are not more vehicles taken by the police is a combination of lack of funds for more surveillance cameras which the goverment is addressing by allowing the police to address through the levying fines from drivers to pay for more cameras and the general lack of traffic police and police in general on the street.

The government will introduce the National Identity Register (a database) (NIR) which physical manifestation will be mandatory Identity Cards which dehumanise and reduce every person in the UK to the level of a vehicle who can be tracked. After applying for permission to live in your own country and paying up to £350 for this card which allows you to live in your own country you too will be subject to the same kind of anomolies that the vehicle insurance issue has thrown up but on a massive scale. We are seeing the authoritarian way the police deal with the problem of insurance "computer says NO" - so lets hope when you have your ID cards and you are stopped by the police (or any of the millions state officials the NIR will make you accountable to) and asked "Your Papers Please" you too don't end up being crushed. Well metaphorically you will be, not physically. Probably.


This is a newspaper article from the Police area where this guys truck was taken from him by the police:-

Insured driver's anger as police crush car

Paul Britton
6/ 2/2007


A MOTORIST is considering legal action after his car was crushed by police who wrongly accused him of driving it without insurance.

Fruit and vegetable delivery driver Steven Booth, 36, from Farnworth, near Bolton, was stopped by a patrol car as he drove to work in Bolton.

The father-of-four said police told him they could not find his details on a national database, although his insurers had renewed the policy four days earlier.

The car, a K-registered Peugeot 205, was towed away to a garage and impounded.

Mr Booth's wife Rachael, the policyholder, took the AA insurance certificate to a police station the following morning, but the couple were presented with a recovery charge of £105 and refused to pay.
The bill rose by £12 for every subsequent day - and the car was crushed 14 days later.

Today the AA, who confirmed Mr Booth was fully insured, called on police to take a `balanced approach'.

Police bosses, however, are understood to be angry at delays in updating the database. They are investigating whether the seizure was lawful, but said a notice of disposal was signed at the garage by the Booths.

Mr Booth, who has complained to the Independent Police Complaints Committee, said: "I said I would produce my documents and they said they did not do that anymore, they seized uninsured cars.

Money

"Everything was legal but they wanted £105. It was just after Christmas and I couldn't afford it. I borrowed the money, but when I went back the garage was closed. I went back there and was told it had risen to £117. The police should not have taken the vehicle off me so why should I pay? I did nothing wrong and everything was legal.

"My 10-year-old son has autism and we have had to get buses to the hospital."

Insurance bosses and police have launched separate investigations into the incident.

The AA, which acted as insurance brokers, confirmed the insurance was renewed on January 4.

The AA's Ian Crowder said: "Mr Booth did not do anything wrong. We believe this is not the first time it has happened and we are making representations to the police to try and make sure they take a balanced approach."

'Responsibility'

A police statement said: "It is the responsibility of insurance companies, not police forces, to ensure that insurance policy details are updated on the national motor insurance database. When deciding if a car should be towed for insurance or licence violations, officers must show `reasonable belief' that an offence has taken place.

"Due to inaccuracies on the motor insurance database officers should not only rely on details held there to constitute `reasonable belief'.

"Inquiries into the exact circumstances are ongoing, but at this stage it appears unlikely that the car was towed unlawfully.

"The insurance policy holder for the car in question signed an official document at the recovery centre on January 8, authorising the company to dispose of the vehicle.

"Despite providing a service where recovery fees can be reimbursed under certain circumstances, GMP has not received any request for reimbursement following the seizure of this car."

The above is not an isolated incident so you can see how easily this New Zelander got caught up in the UK's Kafka-esque system. In point of fact, even having insurance in the UK he just may have had his vehicle crushed anyway.

PS - before a massive backlash forced them to back down the UK government, as part of their national road pricing scheme proposed that every vehicle be fitted with a "black box" which would allow it to be tracked by satelite 24/7. Even when you take your vehicle to the Sahara they would have been able to track you!

How shall I understand this: Do you have 1 Million uninsured drivers from NZ on a "round the world trip" and motorists from Poland invading UK with their old, technically unreliable and uninsured vehicles?

Wow, this is crazy, as shown by the quoted article. I thought the States was screwed?!

Is the crushing of my car free of charge or will I receive an invoice for the "execution"? Just because I am thinking to get rid of my Landrover. I have paid that much for useless repair last year ----

The law is an Ass etc etc
 

Yep, that's what I said.

On the technology thing in general: I don't mind it really - the evidence from such systems has been shown to be quite useful in the prosecution and conviction of various criminals, including perpetrators of murder and terrorism.
However, my reservation is more about the reliance that may, or already has, developed on such systems in place of other options - prior prevention/deterance rather than detection after the event. The plethora of TV programmes about "Forensics" really piss me off in this regard, showing a world based on such ideas as being "sexy" and the answer to all of our problems.
Camera technology applied to the roads: well we could go on about this for ever more (and best in another thread).
Ditto for the use of databases that result from gathering raw data (numerous examples of bad publicity for this in the UK!!).

So, we are well away from the gist of the original post:
Assuming that the statements of the original post are correct, my main concern is about the lack of flexibility exhibited by the authorities - this is far from the only case in the UK and it has to be recognised that single, quoted cases do not make good law (just wish our own Government could take that on board).
Apart from a possible lack of judgement on the part of the policeman there is the further lack of flexibility shown in the judgement of the Justice of the Peace (JP): Still assuming that all is as stated in the initial post, then one would expect such a body (they normal sit on the bench in 3s) to use sensible judgement in dealing with individuals. However, if the evidence showed that Marc was blatently ignoring the law .............
Any JPs out there who wish to comment?

About the crushing thing:
Take this one carefully I would suggest. As I understand it, the concept also includes the possibility of selling the vehicle if it has some value - I think those crushed are "past their sell by date", but I could be wrong (again!!).
Such powers have been implemented on the back of blatant lack of regard in the UK for the law relating to vehicles. Yes, there are millions of uninsured drivers in the UK. We are told that there is plenty of evidence that those who use illegal cars on the road are usually involved in other forms of crime (who knows if this is true?).
I have posted elsewhere that the police in the UK now have powers to sieze property on the basis of suspicion alone - this is not unlike Al Capone getting lifted for tax evasion when nothing else could be pinned on him at the time.
Criminals have been flaunting their wealth while having no obvious means of living a life of luxury, fact according to the press, and I, for one, believe this - there are plenty of scumbags on the streets of the UK.

Customs also have the power to impound vehicles at ports of entry - this used to get a lot of adverse press time, but it was often the case that those involved were smuggling.

Enough for now!

You think this is bad, you ought to see what you get for leaving the lid of your rubbish bin open when the council collection van arrives. BBC NEWS | England | Cumbria | Father fined for overfilling bin

Kuno2 - The Gov are claiming that there are 1,000,000 cars on UK roads with no insurance. I have no idea whether this is realistic or not but I would guess that while some of them may be overlanders passing through, most are supposed to be "deadbeats" who can't be bothered with / can't afford insurance and that crushing their cars will "teach them a lesson".
I'm not certain whether people who have insurance that hasn't shown up on the computer are counted.

lol good thinking Kuno! - Land Rovers have to be the worst cars in the world. I can not imagine why anyone would trust one of these vehicles. My dad used to sell new London Black cabs in the days when they had land rover engines. One came from the factory and in preparation for the customer there was found to be a loud knock when it was first started up. After plenty of head scratching the only thing left to be done was lift the cylinder head where it was found to be missing a piston. THIS WAS A BRAND NEW, STRAIGHT FROM THE FACTORY LAND ROVER ENGINE! :rofl:

(In China when they execute your relative they send you the bill for the bullet - something similar?)

I wish you would stop repeatedly misquoting people. It makes you appear to be trolling the forum for no other purpose than to stir things up.

If you read back, you'll see that the Polish drivers mentioned were quite capable of buying insurance from Tesco's, a large supermarket chain in the UK. Their first language isn't even English, yet they managed perfectly well to keep it all legal.

Unfortunately, there are a large number of people in the UK who are nothing more than work shy parasites, living off charity hand outs from the state and they believe that if they can get away with not paying for something, they'll do it. This people piss me off like you wouldn't believe and we don't want any more like them, whether they are economic migrants from Eastern Europe, so called asylum seekers or RTW travellers from NZ who if they had the initiative to get this far, should really know better. If you come here, stay legal and pay your way, that's great. You'll be made very welcome but we have enough freeloaders of our own in this country as it is.

As for crushing cars, we also pay Road Tax every 6 or 12 months which not paying is another offence that a car can be seized and crushed for, as is repeated anti-social behaviour involving a motor vehicle. This would include wheelieing through the streets of London, Charley Boorman take note.

With this last offence, a check is carried out on the Police National Computer and if it shows you've already had one warning under the Public Order Act, your vehicle will be seized on the spot. No further warnings, no court appearances, nothing. It's a national scheme so if you live in Cornwall and get pulled for the 2nd time in Northumberland, you're pretty well screwed. I'd have to check on what the current fine is but you're also charged for storage which is expensive and that's if you're not a serial offender and they let you have it back. This is designed purely to be a pain in the arse for law breakers though I believe the police terminology is "the disruption of criminal activities".

Last year, Northumbria Police seized a brand new Porsche Carrera GT under the proceeds of crime act. I don't know what happened to it but they could have quite legally sent it to the crusher.

@ craig76; will not quote you any more. And if I come to UK, I will use plane / public transport / taxi (except such with LR engines!). Don't have the intention to enrich the owners of the crusher plants.
I am just thinking a little bit further now: What is the official UK doing with people who are not insured; I mean with humans without any kind of insurance - no, I do not want to know this. Let us keep the picture out of our heads ;-)

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

You can slag off my government ...........
You can slag off my police ..........
You can slag off my countrymen ............
You can slag off my TV .........


But don't slag of my LAND ROVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm off to cry in the pub!

[quote=Kuno2;186583: What is the official UK doing with people who are not insured; I mean with humans without any kind of insurance;-)[/quote]

Actually, we have the national health service, the envy of the rest of the world: free to all who live here, depending on the waiting list.
So, no problems, you can go biking, fall off, break your bones and you will be put back together at no charge, even if you have no insurance.
Lots of people want to come here for this alone, but, as Craig explains, some people don't respect what they are given: easy come, easy go.

Ditto, for any other activity: fall off a mountain, break your limbs and you will be put back together again - the mountain rescue won't send you a bill for getting you off the mountain either (try that in, say, Switzerland). Same goes for if you get into trouble off the coast - we will rescue you, and your boat, windsurfer whatever at no charge: the RNLI gave this idea to the rest of the world.

It's good here.

@ CornishDeity; yes - I cry as well. They promised to call me to tell me, if they can safe it. But they did not dare to do so. I fear the worst. Ok; if my car must die now (having a FULL INSURANCE VALID FOR NORTH AFRICA AS WELL!!!), then at least it is in the correct environment as the vehicle has deserved it and not in a dark & humid garage somewhere in the inner city where the only time the car has experienced "offroad" was that one day when the owner came home completely drunken, missed the entrance to the parking and landed in the neighbours garden. No; I can tell you that it had a good life. But; it's not over yet -better you pray for it instead of crying!!!

I was going to reply, but you know, I can't be bothered being reasonable.

Umm well not quite...

The Road Traffic (NHS Charges) Act 1999 currently permits the Compensation Recovery Unit (CRU) to recover NHS treatment charges arising out of road traffic accidents from compensating motor insurers. The Health & Social Care (Community Health & Standards) Act 2003 provides for the scheme to be extended to cover all cases where a Claimant has made a successful personal injury claim, which will bring in EL, PL and product liability claims in addition to motor.

One reason why insurance premiums are so high and the police are cracking down? Stealth tax by any chance???

My brother was skiing in Switzerland three weeks ago and one of their party broke her leg and was lifted off the mountain without charge. Her leg was very proffesionally set with external splints and no dressing and the Swiss doctors said not to worry about MRSA; that's a British disease they told her.

The NHS is not free to me - two thirds of the price of petrol in my bike is tax as is about 50% of my entire income.

On Monday I have my first dental appointment in two years too. I'm lucky to find one and it's taken me two years to save up for the treatment I'm likely to need. Free it ain;t :( Still - one great thing about British dentistry is that I can keep my visor propped open with my lower incisor :rofl:

Lastly, when I asked my GP last year not to upload my medical records to the NHS spine I was told the state owned my medical not me and the only way I could prevent him uploading my records to the governemnt's national database was if I withdrew from the NHS. I did and as a consequence I have no NHS entitlement even though I still pay the same taxes and can't afford private health coverage.

Dentist!!
 

This thread is so off topic now....so in for a penny....

I visited the dentist yesterday - first time in 8 years. I need £200 worth worth of work. However, 6 monthly check ups for 8 years, plus the same work comes to £520!

Bargain:D

We all have a vote - kick them out!
 

Hi again,
Yes, I was aware of the first bit in broad terms, without being able to quote the bell, book and candle.
Yep, there is a move toward getting the insurance companies involved which could act as some sort of check on bad claims I guess: going right off topic again, you will recognise that there are many initiatives to catch out those who are less than honest in their daily lives (the latest = the ex-town mayor who has been discovered to be claiming £1000s in benefits for disability while being an active football referee).
I understand that the ins company pay a contribution toward the removal of a traffic accident victim to the hospital (which is paid by the ins, not the individual = about £100?); thereafter, the treatment is still free.
I would not describe it as a "tax" - differentiation of what is medical treatment and other aspects (but, yep, we could be paying for food in hospital next - why not, you have to when at home?).

I could not blame the executive arm (the police) for doing as they are told in any particular "crackdown": the direction comes from the politicians, increasingly from Local Govn which is receiving increasing powers from central Govn.

Switzerland: don't really know enough - I have always understood that there are liabilities for rescue on the mountains (try calling out a helicopter :rolleyes2:), but that was some years ago.

We all pay taxes, unless you are extremely rich: all tax is not ring-fenced, but the NHS is still free.
Yep, dentists have opted out: the Govn have failed to tie them in and they are ripping off their clients as private patients (I know one or two who openly brag about their income) - they must be charging about the same as a BMW main dealer's hourly rate!
It is not a perfect system I would agree. Teeth and eyes are neglected items!

On the final point we are back to databases and what to do with them: that is a biggy!
How about the idea to make it compulsory that you are an organ donor unless you opt out (the opposite of the present system)? -- over my dead body!!!!!!!!!! Now that is one that I do object to.

:offtopic: :offtopic: :offtopic: Apologies to one and all!

Dave don't apoligise. This thread is in the Sahara Travel Forum.

Should have been in the Bar to start with.

Very true.
The thread has run it's course I suppose, especially in its capacity for "Off Topicness".

Good luck with your imminent travels; you will be glad to get on the road! :D

Well, just got to throw in my comment to add to the general amusement:

I had a Land Rover 109 stolen from outside the flat in Hackney, East London, where I lived several years ago. One of my neighbours saw a tow truck dragging it away (i had dropped the gearbox to replace the clutch, so it must have made quite a noise dragging down the street!) The wrote down the phone number on the side of the recovery truck and when I got back that evening they told me.

So... I called the phone company to try to get the address to match the number, but they said it had to be a police request, so I went to the police station, where after explaining I was asked by the officer interviewing me "so, thought you would play at being a detective did you?"

Then they did nothing - as I'd expected...

Then, three months later I had a phone call:
CID rang me up (and I was so glad there was someone with me at the time because otherwise I'd have thought I'd imagined it) they told me that they had rung up the number I'd given them, and asked the person on the other end whether they had stolen my Landy...! Apparently the Criminal Mastermind on the other end told them "no", so they said that obviously they couldn't proceed any further!

You really couldn't make it up!

Now I've moved to Ireland - an infinitely more sensible place - whenever I go back to Britain I am amazed at the hopeless mess the place is, and the sheep putting up with whatever they are told to do because it's 'SECURITY'

Tony

this doesnt seem right
 

Iám from the UK and now live in Australia. This story dosent sound right to me. You should have insurance yes I agree, stupid not too. But its not a criminal offence to have no insurance in the UK, and you cant be arrested for it. You most certanly bee handcuffed for it. Not unless you are being an arse with the cop. . There are also set fines for this not what you have in your wallet ! I know in NZ (lived there for 2 years) you don't need insurance which is mad, you can also take the test (really easy one) at 15. No wonder the driving is really bad.