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Off topic?
Hi guys! :offtopic:
As a 2 wheeled fiend who enjoys travelling I've come to the HUBB... :scooter: However, my next big adventure will be on 4 wheels, and I have no idea where to look to ask, research, and learn about my next trip. Does anyone know of a 4 wheeled overlanding forum? (and I should stress I said 4 wheels ... that's not to say 4x4). I see lots of websites for 4x4 overlanders but they just look like a weekend warrior tour package sites. I want the nitty gritty... tech questions about where i can find my "One Life Live It!" stickers... or how many sand ladders I need to look competent or what's the best colour scheme for my jerry cans if I have at least 4m^2 of checker plate covering my vehicle. ;) Well, maybe regardless of this detail if anyone may know the answer to this very primary question: Permanently importing a vehicle into Mongolia... so far my searches have only shown me that vehicles over 10 years old are substantially more expensive to import. However, where is all this information written? I'd love to know more... places to look. Neil :) |
it is good here!
Hi Neil,
I would say that this is a good place to start 4x4 or not there are experienced people on here from all walks of life and with many different vehicles. Just ask your questions and you will receive honest practical advice. Good luck Graeme |
This seems to be the "HUBB" for serious 4 wheeled travellers too - I'm often told stuff similar to what you said above. :)
Besides, 2 and 4 wheels have more or less the same issues everywhere so much of it is relevant to both. I'm very curious - WHY would you want to permanently import a vehicle into Mongolia? I have no info myself on rules for importing into Mongolia, sorry - but someone must know! |
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Why not ask the adventurists (who run the mongol rally) they may offer some assitance or information about importing the vehicle into mongolia??
The Adventurists :: fighting to make the world less boring |
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What kind of car are you thinking? Matt |
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Having had plenty of experience trying to wreck an Aixam micro-car.... http://homepages.enterprise.net/jayj...aixam/KU01.jpg <= not this car... but this is what it looks like when not naked. ...the past few years in spain: ..and it proving near indestructible, uber-efficient ~80mpg (and runs on diesel), weighs 380kgs and can be lifted on 2 wheels by a mere mortal. So with that established, I'm keen to buy one in the UK and making it overland-spec:
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Ha ha ha! That is fantastic! :thumbup1:
Would you ever get it through an MOT though? ;) I like the alternative approach - very few people seem to realise the benefits of small and light instead of big and powerful. I took a sub 1 litre Citroen AX to Morocco (OK a regular gas guzzler by your standards!) and I found it surprisingly good on the modest off-roading that I did. The fact it was worth about £400 helped when you heard things go 'bang' and 'crack'! It had done about 85K when I took it to Maroc and lived on to do 130k before the suspension finally gave up and it was uneconomical to keep on the road. I genuinely really miss that car! Had loads of great adventures in it! I've seen pre-war Austin 7s get up stuff you wouldn't believe on off-road hill climb events. Of course when us Brits were bashing around the world in Land Rovers the French were doing great things, especially in the desert, in 2CVs. Always had a bit of a hankering for a 2CV. Best of luck sorting out your motor! Matt :) |
Oh Dear, After niggling the bike gear heads on this site, I have to admit that I have all the bling for Australian 4x4 desert touring :blushing:
Large vehicles carry more gear so are necessary for long trips but small short-wheel bases are more fun. There are few stock vehicles that can handle true off-road conditions, so after-market additions are required. Lift-kit - no more than 2" ( if using roof racks put only lite equipment on top as the C of G shift is one of the main causes of roll over) Diff-lock ( air operated ) turns any fourbie into a tractor, and allows you to inflate tyres, (reduce to 12- 16 psi when in sand). Gas shocks and large springs ( ride will be stiffer but will handle the BIG hits ) The only real bullbars are steel, but heavy, anything else is a joke. Twin batteries and isolator - we do like all our battery draining toys Long range fuel and water tanks Mongolia is drier than outback Oz EPIRB - emergency beacon Engine exhaust inflated car jacks are much better than large steel jacks in sand Do this and you are unstoppable . |
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Diff-lock ( air operated ) turns any fourbie into a tractor, and allows you to inflate tyres, (reduce to 12- 16 psi when in sand). It's a 2wd micro-car with fwd... not really an option in this situation. But i'll consider it. Gas shocks and large springs ( ride will be stiffer but will handle the BIG hits ) I'll see what's available, wont rule it out. The only real bullbars are steel, but heavy, anything else is a joke. I can't say if bull bars on a micro-car are necessary, but i'll consider it. Twin batteries and isolator - we do like all our battery draining toys I will definitely consider this Long range fuel and water tanks Mongolia is drier than outback Oz It may come in the shape of jerrycans... the car was designed for city driving, and to be dumped off in mongolia, no intention of getting anything specially fabbed up. EPIRB - emergency beacon Really?? Where's the fun in getting lost? Engine exhaust inflated car jacks are much better than large steel jacks in sand It's a 380kg car... i'll consider an inflatable dingy Do this and you are unstoppable . |
Hey Neil The info was just general for all cars
it might have been a a typo but you wrote "I want the nitty gritty... tech questions " To be honest the vehicle you have chosen will be found wanting. It will be loaded to the gunnels and heavy for its original design I agree that small is fun but you want to go to Mongolia, not to be taken lightly ('scuse pun) But if you are still keen, A portable air compressor to re-inflate tyres , twin batteries, (solar panel maybe) snatch strap It maybe a 350 kg car, but how much gear, food,fuel, water etc. it will add up The EPIRB (emergency positioning radio indicating beacon) should not be an option. I have never fired one off but they have been the best money I've spent for peace of mind, time is of essence when remote and injured. |
Why not just start off with a van , commercial vehicle , as found by many people in Australia , 90% of the time these will take you anywhere a 4x4 will and are built strong enough to take punishment for quite a time., and will give you reasonable payload .
2WD preferably with a live back axle , as more robust than front drive shafts. Fit 8pr light truck tyres , look at exhaust for routing, or vulnerability ground clearance is very important. Set of tyre chains for mud , amazing where they will take you compared with tyres only. Most 4x4 are overkill as locals dont drive 4x4 in most places. Most cars will take a lot more modding , and are designed down to market usage , that is relatively soft . You also want less fruit that can fail, eg lecky windows etc . A good few years back they designed a car for africa that was made of ply with austin 1100 powertrain , and drove down thru africa , cant find any references to it at the moment , but it looked at all the sort of things you will be contemplating . HTSH |
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Citroen 2CV-based Africar :) |
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However, we (my spanish friends and I) found that the Aixam in all it's vulnerabilities is in fact a very sturdy car. We've managed to drive up hill with 17 people on board... for a car that was intended as a 2 seater that's good going. Managed to get it to get some air-time racing it off of ramps... and I personally managed to roll it with 3 of us onboard... and without stalling it, on account of the auto-transmission. I appreciate the suggestions of other vehicles, however, I'm sort of out to prove this vehicle can do it, in spite of all the nay saying and rational arguments against. |
:rofl: Your'e a man after my own heart Neil
Ok now I can put the big brother "caution guy" away This is the sort of vehicle ,and trip ,many hardcore fourbie riders talk about, and many have a project in their sheds, little suzukis old landies etc. So I think it would be a hoot, I'm in. Questions How many travelling with you ?, people , vehicles How many klms are you expecting to cover in one day? Are you using this car for pure transport or a mix of fun/transport ? I'm going to search the specs. on this car, I'll get back to you. |
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How many travelling with you ?, people , vehicles - Currently 2 in each car, hopefully to find a few more to do similar set ups in same cars. How many klms are you expecting to cover in one day? - The top speed on an Aixam is 50mph (90km/hr), and prohibited to get on motorways in most of Europe. I'm guessing 4-6 hours average days driving sounds reasonable (including breaks). so about 400-500kms Are you using this car for pure transport or a mix of fun/transport ? - We don't own the car we intend to do the travelling in yet, that's yet to be acquired but when we do, it'll be purely for this trip. I'm going to search the specs. on this car, I'll get back to you. - Here is some spec i found for you 2001 Aixam Evolution 500 car technical specifications - automobile tech data from Carfolio.com - 2 door 0.5 litre (479 cc) Inline 2 9.6 PS, 1 speed transmission as with most things on the net, it's not 100% accurate. |
couple o things
cheaper to put suspension bags in the existing coils than change setup Polyair Springs air bag suspension lift kits about $300 for a full kit combined with a portable air compressor will give you fully adjustable spring tension. Cargo barrier a bit expensive (about $400) but has two purposes - stops equipment from braining you if you stop suddenly, and also acts as a roll cage. With that 16 litre tank I'd take an electric fuel pump, they're only small, saves unpacking fuel These things can be taken off when finished so a little saved |
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something like this Amazon.com: Facet Fuel-It Transfer Fuel Pump: Automotive
there are cheaper models, run an extension from your cigarette lighter or battery |
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:thumbup1: spoken like a true road warrior
I think the real art here is in the packing I found a set of drawers in the back allows access to most things without a major unpack, you could rig a cheap set up you mention putting 15" wheels on . Is this an easy option? if so you can purchase 8 ply light truck 10 if you can get it |
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As for the drawers, I'll look into it. Keep in mind that I don't want to own the car more than a year, I'm not wild about investing wild amounts of money on it. If it turns out to be a trooper by the time i get to Ulan Bator, I'll consider buying another when I get home... definitely not spending it on this one though. |
Whats the payload for that car ie. the GVW or Mam (I'm guessing its quite low) ?
Take off the weight of the car + 2 adults , that'll leave you the payload Now thats the weight limit you've got maximum to fit water, fuel , camping gear, clothes etc in. Do this before you even think of modifying it. Does it come with a spare wheel or a can of goo. You'll need a spare. Add in the weight ! What spares do you need to take - these can be split across several vehicles if you are convoying. Whats the range you need between fuel fillups ? this will dicate how many jerries (at 20kg at time) you will need. I agree with your syphon solution for fuel transfer. 400-500kg a day will be a dream, guessing you won't be doing you 90kmh flat out all day on rough roads, you'll need to preserve your car and take brakes to allow shockers etc to cool. You must secure everything down, so a roll or accident doesn't kill you with flying bits Then see if you have weight room to mod the cars/do the trip. Do not overload. It sounds a fun trip, but make sure you can carry enough water and fuel |
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Its going to be very little, so your going to have to travel light. forget storage drawers and boxes, think black bin bags! priorities as pointed out above, spares, water and fuel. everything else takes 2nd place. work out what you need to carry volume wise (fuel/water) and see what that leaves you. Its going to be a tough challenge. when did you say you were doing this? G |
Payload.... I've never heard of it.... well... of course I have, but never in context of a vehicle's day-to-day payload. Where would I see that info? Owners manual?
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If you look at their website, at the different models it gives in the technical stuff that the difference between the weights of unloaded and loaded is about 275kg.
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Our clapped out Aixam in Spain was heaving along about 17 people last summer... admittedly we had removed the adorning panels/doors/windows, but even then that's good going. |
A car will have a maximum plated weight ie. the most the car can weigh fully loaded with people fuel etc
Unladen Weight 380kg Max Laden Weight 675kg From Aixam Cars - Websters of Stoke Your 17 people would be massivly illegal as the car will be overloaded The biggest breaker of overland vehicles is overloading, remember you arn't running along tarmac but dirt roads , tracks , sand etc, overloaded cars break easily in these environments So payload is 295 kgs So 380kgs + 2 adults - say 80 kilos each so take off 160kgs So 135 kg available for all your kit, fuel, clothes, spares, water, food etc. Just a note, i'm not anti what you are trying to do - but you've got to work within the limitations of the vehicle |
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Thanks for the heads-up on the info. I believe the model car I'm actually looking to get has pretend rear seats, chucking them out will give probably an extra 10-20kgs However, an extra spare wheel will probably consume that right back again. :) I'm looking forward to this and I don't even own the car yet. hehe |
Neil if you get a roof rack pack only lite gear on top . sleeping bags etc. Do not store fuel as this is heavy, and I hate to harp on a point, but centre of gravity shift is accentuated in small cars quite easily.
The airbags I mention wil give you a larger weight carrying capacity but you still have to be anal with what you take and how you pack. A $20 two draw lightweight plastic set of drawers in the bottom of the back boot will ease a lot of access probs. one for tools and one for cooking utensils I find are the things I reached for most. Other things you will have to take are spare fan belts,hoses (water) fuel filter ( fuel can be shite OS) two-way comms. (saves stopping to evaluate position and alleviating anxiety all the time) Water is calculated at 4lt per person per day for desert driving ( you can reduce this as along as you can forgo a little personal hygiene ) carry as low in the vehicle as possible. |
I think your question from my post was answered. So yes, you can carry 275kg.
Imagine when you're packing that it isn't a car, imagine you're going two up on a CG125. If ever you want to know how to keep things lightweight, you're on the right forum. |
is that unladen weight or kerb weight, which would include the driver?
for weight and access tuperware rules! plastic crates and boxes are very light and make loading a lot easier. unlike bin bags items are protected and you can see whats in them. The really useful box company makes a great selection of placcy boxes |
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Does anyone know if there are there any fuel carriers/tanks about for inside a car on the market? As in, not necessarily a jerry can..... something that can be like a metre wide or so, that could be strapped down inside the car, under everything else ... but be filled by a hose or something? |
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caravan motorhome GREY WATER 900 x 300 x 300 (80 LITRE) | eBay UK |
Major rule dont carry fuel esp petrol inside vehicle :devil2:
if you must carry extra fuel then in jerrycan in bracket on outside of vehicle. In many countries this is illegal as well . If you overload , and have an accident your insurer will not accept claim . Not trying to be a party pooper but you dont want any extra problems JMHO |
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Sorry mate this rule about carrying fuel inside doesn't apply in Aus. or if it does is overlooked. Your only option would be the roof-rack as I cant see a place for the bracket. That tank you mention. if up to fuel spec. and installed professionally and boxed in ? maybe , ask your insurer if this would suffice.
Maybe check if a bigger fuel tank will fit, sometimes there is room. Whats your budget on prepping the car ? |
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Tom Sheppard uses jerrycans stored low in the centre of his merc g wagon (photos in one of his books)
Strapped down of course, and it is diesel, I would not do that with petrol but your chosen steed is diesel so not so much of an issue. If you get an extra tank fitted it should be to fuel spec if plastic (don't assume a water tank can be used) and arrange to fill it outside the vehicle otherwise you will live with the stink of spilled diesel |
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Have you done this yet? We're more than happy to offer any advice if you would like to give us a call or drop us an email. Last year there were at least 4 groups who tried to do this without first researching the cost of importing their vehicle into Mongolia. PLEASE do your research first as most do not realise it is a hell of a lot cheaper (and a lot less hassle) to do this with the Rally than to try and import the vehicles themselves. In 2012 we saw the Czech embassy bailing out one couple attempting to do this, another who lost several thousands of dollars attempting to import and sell their large and old 4x4, one turned away at the Mongolian border who were then charged a fine for returning to Russia after being stamped out, and one more who abandoned their vehicle that may or may not realise they'll be arrested if they ever return - Mongolian customs failed to get them on the way out (they mistakenly came to us first thinking that it might be on our Rally). Not a sales pitch, I just don't want to see the same situations we tend to see a few times each year when people come to us asking for help importing their vehicles because they weren't aware of the import cost. [Was hoping to insert a link to current import costs for Mongolia, but nowhere seems to have uptodate information. If you drop us an email we can tell you the current costs.] Rob (Mongol Rally Event Manager) mongolrally@theadventurists.com |
Rob, I decided to concentrate my efforts on a far more worthy cause, besides this was 2011. After researching, I concluded Mongolia would be far more appreciated on 2 wheels. :) :scooter:
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