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Yamaha Tech Originally the Yamaha XT600 Tech Forum, due to demand it now includes all Yamaha's technical / mechanical / repair / preparation questions.
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  #1  
Old 1 Sep 2007
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xt550 v xt600

hi
is the xxt 550 the same as an early xt 600 one if so has anybody got one as i really deperate
cheers
Dave
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  #2  
Old 2 Sep 2007
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Ummmm - what piece exactly, Dave?

Still having electrical problems, I guess?
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  #3  
Old 3 Sep 2007
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xt550 v xt 600

hi,
yes i am,i guess i should have given more details. i believe the cdi unit is playing up as sometimes the bike starts and when it is it runs it runs pretty well. then it wont start at all,although i have a spark and petrol?
Dave
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  #4  
Old 3 Sep 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triumph View Post
hi,
yes i am,i guess i should have given more details. i believe the cdi unit is playing up as sometimes the bike starts and when it is it runs it runs pretty well. then it wont start at all,although i have a spark and petrol?
Dave
Intermittent issues are more likely to be a bad connection than the CDI playing up. CDIs and the like generally either don't work at all (due to burned out diodes or blown caps) or will work and then cut out after a while due to overheating.

If you're getting a spark but the bike won't start, I would strongly suspect a bad connection at the coil, probably on the HT lead or plug cap. how are you testing the spark? "plug out and held against the casing", or "cap off and spark from the HT lead itself"?

I'd check *all* connections from the coil, especially the earth connection and HT lead, a good idea would be to pull the cap from the plug and test connectivity / resistance between the plug terminal and earth whilst jiggling the lead about.

Another possible issue would be a weak spark, there's a few things that could cause this.

First off, are the ignitor coil resistances (as measured between the red and brown wires from the alternator) in spec? If this is low, you have a stator rewind in your future (probably a short in one of the coils, and your spark won't be as "hot" as it should be). Coil resistance should be of the order of 150-250 ohms or so (although your manual should have the exact figures)
While you're there, make sure there's no connectivity between either of these connections and earth, even when jiggling the wires.

Next up, are you getting a good connection from igniter coils to CDI? This one is kinda hard to test, as the wires are sealed at the CDI end and there's only one pair of connectors for the ignitor coil feed. Basically, if the wires to the CDI are fecked, you might only be getting an intermittent spark, or if the connectors are corroded to buggery you might not be getting the current you want (although the voltages might look fine). Like I said, it's a bitch to test. Check the CDI wires for obvious breaks, clean those terminals (red and brown again) as well as you can, plug and unplug a few times to get a decent connection. Do the same to all the other connections from alternator to CDI at the same time (the 3 pin plug with white-red/green/white-green), you *know* you want to.

You can test the output of the igniter coils with a multimeter set to AC volts, 2000V range or so IIRC by connecting your multimeter to the brown and red terminals *without disconnecting them* while the motor is running. Easiest way to do this is to make a pair of pigtails with "plugs", connect them to a "domino" terminal block and then gently fit the existing "plug" connections into the domino, that way you can take readings from the screws in the terminal block... If the manual gives amps rather than volts, you can connect a meter inline to see what the output is.

Resistance of the brown-red connection on the CDI should be roughly the same as that of the igniter coils. If that is out of spec per the manual, your igniter is definitely dead.

While we're on this side of the CDI, might as well check the pulser coils, generally you have 100-150 ohms or so between the center tap and each leg (so, green to white-green and green to white-red)

That's about all you can do this side easily and without an identical, known good, igniter and alternator.

Now off to the "hot" side.

There's bugger all you can do to static test the hot side of the CDI, so check the orange, black and black-white connections are good, then it's off to the coil.

Coil primary resistance (orange to black) should be under an ohm, probably 0.5 ohms or so. check your manual for the exact figure

Coil secondary resistance (HT lead connection to black) should be in the 5000-10000 ohm range. again, use your manual.

Testing the coil output is potentially lethal, I'd avoid it if possible. You're dealing with tens of kilovolts when the motor is running (usually between 10 and 30Kv or so, depending on motor regime)

Other stuff to check is all the gubbins that hangs off the black-white lead from the CDI. Kill switch, main switch, etc. With everything turned to "run" check continuity from earth to where the CDI plugs into the loom. The kill switches and the like all work by *earthing*, so there should be zero continuity here with everything set to run. Also check the black/white lead of the CDI for continuity to earth.

If you're seeing continuity in the loom, there's a short somewhere. Isolate by slowly unplugging switchgear and testing (kill switches are notorious for dying), if you have the kill and ignition switches disconnected and you still have continuity, you have a short in the loom itself (and good luck with that)

Simon
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  #5  
Old 3 Sep 2007
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Oh, and in reply to the original question...

XT400/550 CDI is Nippon Denso 5Y3-85540-50
XT600 34L CDI is Nippon Denso 07000-1080

XT400/550 coil is Nippon Denso 5Y1-82310-50
XT600 34L coil is Nippon Denso 129700-089

It's highly probable that the 34L CDI and coil will work more or less fine with the 550, although the advance curves are different and you may have problems at higher regimes (the 34L advances to 36° at 4500RPM, 550 to 35° at 6500 RPM), but I'd check out all the connections before considering transplanting CDIs from anything other than a 400 or 550.

And a new plug probably wouldn't hurt if you haven't already.
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  #6  
Old 3 Sep 2007
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second tuftys last bit of advice

i will second tuftys last bit of advice..

try a NEW PLUG... but DO IT FIRST, you would be amazed at how many times the plug has been the problem on bikes i have worked on, also a worn plug takes a much higher voltage to produce a nice fat spark than a new one.

may i wish you a fast fault find as electrical problems are the worst type of problems, or at least they seem to bring out the worst in us, in terms of frustration, tears and banging head against shed wall!
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  #7  
Old 3 Sep 2007
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hi,
thanks for the very informative reply(s). the plug is new. i have just been thinking of the things that i have done and when i got the bike running well all of the wires from the alternator were loose as i had taken a lot of the tape of to check for breaks in the wires. then i turned off taped them up and it would'nt start again,could be a coincidence but i will follow your checks. i have disconnected the kill switch try the ignition switch and test the oldd and new alternators. have just purchased a new coil.
thanks once again and will let you know the progress !
Dave
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  #8  
Old 3 Sep 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triumph View Post
hi,
thanks for the very informative reply(s). the plug is new. i have just been thinking of the things that i have done and when i got the bike running well all of the wires from the alternator were loose as i had taken a lot of the tape of to check for breaks in the wires. then i turned off taped them up and it would'nt start again,could be a coincidence but i will follow your checks. i have disconnected the kill switch try the ignition switch and test the oldd and new alternators. have just purchased a new coil.
thanks once again and will let you know the progress !
Dave
triumph,
I don't believe in coincidences when it comes to electrics on bikes! If you can convince yourself that the last thing you adjusted/changed/fiddled with/cocked up is the cause of your current problem then, IMO, go for that first.

Beyond that, you sure have a great post from Tufty - very detailed Tufty!
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  #9  
Old 3 Sep 2007
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Dave
no i am prob hoping on that one. electrics are never that straight forward.
yes it is a very good post.i know this problem has been going on for a while as the last owner couldn't get it going,but i will in the end i want to ride
Dave
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  #10  
Old 3 Sep 2007
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Even so, "something simple" has changed is the implication of the sudden change you have experienced; but only you really know all of the symptoms and the history of what has been going on when you have worked on the bike; it is very, very difficult to get across in writing what is going on! (been there, tried that and done it!!).

Tufty's fault finding post is definitely very valuable to you, next to a multi-meter!

Good luck
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  #11  
Old 7 Sep 2007
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xt cdi

hi,
i have just checked my cdi wiring and have discovered that a blue/yellow trace wire has been used for an earth ? shouldn't that wire be for a sidestand cut out switch if it were fitted to this bike?
my next question then would be how do i eart the cdi unit, i cannot see any black wires coming out that are not already connected.
Dave
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  #12  
Old 7 Sep 2007
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I don't see a black/yellow on my wiring diagram, I'll pop out and have a shufty at my CDI in a bit. There's a black/white, which is the main cutoff, and most definitely shouldn't be earthed (should be connected to the loom's black/white). Don't worry about not being able to earth the unit itself, just make sure the black wire is connected to a reliable earth (i.e. check the black loom connection for good earth).

Do you have a wiring diagram showing the mysterious black/yellow wire? Could be that the '83 has additional stuff my '82 doesn't.

Simon
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  #13  
Old 8 Sep 2007
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Checked my CDI - no black/yellow.

Brown, red, green, red/white and green/white for the genny, black, orange, black/white and 2 whites for the loom. That's it.

Simon

Last edited by tufty; 10 Sep 2007 at 07:44. Reason: edited for brainfartness
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  #14  
Old 9 Sep 2007
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hi simon,
sorry its a blue and yellow
Dave
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  #15  
Old 11 Sep 2007
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At a guess, then, you have the following connections on your CDI:

- Brown and red flyleads to alternator (spark juice)
- A 3 pin plug to alternator (green, green/white and something else, pulser coil connections)
- Orange (LT feed to coil)
- Black (earth)
- Black/white (killswitch etc)
- Blue
- Blue / yellow

This is me guessing it's an XT600 1VJ or 3AJ part, rather than the original. My XT550 part number is be 5Y1-85540-52-00 (marked 5Y1-52), but it seems there are more than one, even for the 550 (5Y1-50, 5Y1-51, 5Y1-52, 5Y2, 5Y3), so it could be that other 550 CDIs are different to mine. That's a helluva lot of different ignitors for a bike only made over a 2 year span, I think some of those part numbers might be remarkings for different markets, but who knows - I sure don't.

Back to the 600 CDIs. The way these are normally wired, far as I can tell, is that the black/white runs only to the ignition switch, and the blue and blue-yellow run to all the other switchgear (sidestand switch, killswitch, etc), but I'm not sure what polarity they are supposed to have. I'd guess that, if you haven't lifted the CDI itself, the connections are good, so leave them as they are.

I still think you have a stripped or earthing wire between CDI and alternator - after all, that's what you said you'd untaped and retaped.

I'd mail you my CDI to test with, but I'm not actually sure that's good, either

Simon
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