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  #1  
Old 26 Mar 2003
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Unpredictable Electrics? XTZ660

(the bikes an XTZ660)

A quick question for everyone out there - over the past few months I have been having problems with the battery not remaining charged for very long - about 1 week normally before I have to leave it on an Optimate overnight. The battery is only a year old!

checked rectifier - in as much as when you rev the engine the headlights go brighter...

Suggestions?

Then - last night when riding home - even stranger!

The battery was chraged on Monday Night
Tuesday Night - the indicators started to flash faster as the engine revved faster! (all still lighting on both sides as they should front and rear!)

On closer inspection the Headlight was flashing aswell!

Then this morning (wednesday) the battery was low again and it only just fired up before the battery flattened. BUT indicators ok!

Any suggestions?

All help much appreciated...

Tony.

[This message has been edited by Tony Robson (edited 26 March 2003).]
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  #2  
Old 26 Mar 2003
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Hello Tony,

this looks like a typical electrical problem where you have to search until you get mad.

One thing is that the avr of a 660 only starts charging the battery if it gets feedback from a sound battery. This means that all 6 cells must be in good shape, the battery voltage should be at least say 10,6.
The battery itself is a gel battery, if you ever charge it with a normal charger, you can throw it away.

The avr is known to give problems after about 2 years. Check if anything is bulging out of the rubber part. Possibly the symptoms are caused by ac coming through the avr. Don't buy the same model again, not even the latest version! Buy one with cooling fins [looks like a small air cooled 2-stroke cylinder head]. This might have a 5-pole connector but we just don't use the extra one. If you can't find it over there i can send you one from here. Costs about 80 euro.

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Fred, XTZ660, Holland.
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  #3  
Old 26 Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by FredXTZ:

One thing is that the avr of a 660 only starts charging the battery if it gets feedback from a sound battery....
Is the avr the rectifier?
Quote:

The battery itself is a gel battery, if you ever charge it with a normal charger, you can throw it away.
The charger is an Optimate 3 - designed for charging bike batteries esp gel ones..

Quote:

The avr is known to give problems after about 2 years. Check if anything is bulging out of the rubber part. Possibly the symptoms are caused by ac coming through the avr.
If the avr is the rectifier - mounted inside my front fairing - then it is a model with loads of fins all over it???

Thanks for the help. Tony.
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  #4  
Old 26 Mar 2003
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avr = auto voltage regulator = rectifier.

Optimate 3 seems ok.

Do you have a '96 or later model 660?
Then you have this finned rectifier and it is indeed mounted inside the front fairing.

Still the symptoms look like a rectifier problem. What's the DC voltage on the battery poles with engine running idle and about 3000 rpm? Is the connector to the rectifier clean and dry? Somebody once sprayed secret agent WD-40 in the rectifier's ass and the connector burnt completely. WD-40 insulates !


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Fred, XTZ660, Holland.
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  #5  
Old 26 Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by FredXTZ:
Do you have a '96 or later model 660?
A 1996 4MY model.

Quote:
<font face="" size="2">Is the connector to the rectifier clean and dry?</font>
Yes - very clean and tidy

Quote:
<font face="" size="2">What's the DC voltage on the battery poles with engine running idle and about 3000 rpm?</font>
Took the fairings off to have a good look and accurate measurements were -

battery - engine not running - 12.67 Volts
Rectifier Inputs - 11.6 V AC across pairs
Recitfier Output - Engine Idling - 13.6 Volts
Rectifier Output - At 3500 RPM - 13.6 Volts

BUT - it blipps up to 14.5 as you start to rev up towards 2000 rpm then settles back to it's start voltage for the res of the rev range...

Questions - faulty rectifier ?
Does this account for the problems in my first thread on this issue?

Ther rectifier is an: SH650A-12

IS this a standard part?
Is it best to replace it with the same part?
Are there any others available?
If so what are they and how do I get hold of one?
What are the benefits etc?

Hope you can help, many thanks in advance for the replies.

Tony.
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  #6  
Old 27 Mar 2003
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Tony, all data look ok except for the AC voltage. I think this should be 20V or so. Try measuring at the 3 white cables coming out of the engine [flywheel side].
So it seems that your problem originates somewhere else. Do you clean the bike with high pressure? Then open all switches on the steering. I never do, but once in Spain the workshop, that glued the crankshaft pinion which had come loose, did. The starter and horn didn't work for a week!

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  #7  
Old 27 Mar 2003
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I'm not sure where the voltage should be across the 3 white cables.

Should it be 20v across any 2 cables?

Is the regulator ok if the output voltage does't change as the revs go higher?

Seeming to blip makes me wonder?

Bikes never pressure washed and not been to any mechanics in the 2 years I've had it. All is clean and tidy?
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  #8  
Old 27 Mar 2003
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Yes AC voltage across any of the white wires.

In theory the DC voltage should rise to at least 14.

Afaik the voltage could be a bit lower when idling but should quickly reach max.

What means 'seeming to blip'?

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  #9  
Old 28 Mar 2003
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Tested all the electric thoroughly last night - the result were

Generator Output - Across any pair of the 3 white wires

Unloaded - (Rectifier disconnected) ->
Idling - Output 7.5 VAC
1500 RPM - 12.8 VAC
2500 RPM - 18.9 VAC
3500 RPM - 21.5 VAC - Stays here for rest of rev range.

Rectifier Output (Across Red and Black wires)
Idling - 12.6 VDC I think this comes back from the battery!)
1500 RPM - 12.6 VDC
2500 RPM - 12.6 VDC
3500 RPM - 12.6 VDC - Stays here for rest of rev range.

BUT - if you rev the engine up from idle - the Rectifier Ouput goes up to 14.5VDC for a millisecond and then drops to 12.6 VDC

Generator Output Loaded - (Rectifier connected to generator) taken across any pair of white wires ->
Idling - Output 7.5 VAC
1500 RPM - 7.1 VAC
2500 RPM - 5.2 VAC
3500 RPM - 3.5 VAC - Stays here for rest of rev range.

I have also measured the Generator output to Earth for each white wire on an unloaded generator - this goes from 7.5VAC idling up to 50+ VAC at about 4000RPM. Though I think this might be misleading as the AC circuit is totally isolated from the DC ?!??

So i return to my original question - the generator seems to be fine by these reading which only leaves the rectifier to be faulty.

I think the volage being measured on the output of the rectifier is that from the battery as it dips slightly when you start the bike...

Any thoughts....
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  #10  
Old 28 Mar 2003
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I agree, get a new rectifier, or better still, try another one first.
If you were in Holland it would be easy

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Fred, XTZ660, Holland.
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  #11  
Old 28 Mar 2003
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Many thanks FredXTZ - I think I will order one from a company called Elextrics

www.electrexworld.co.uk

They list one and include a picture which is wrong... after phoning they got the item out and decribed it for me - cost £49 GBP plus vat and delivery...

Companies like Newtronics offer them but they do not have the correct connectors on and come with fly-leads instead....

Yamaha are charging £100 GBP for an OEM part.

Thanks again.

Tony.
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  #12  
Old 28 Mar 2003
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the voltage drop on the AC side when you load it makes me think the windings are failing ... they generate voltage, but can't withstand current (load). sorry I can't remember the test for this, but someone who winds stators would be able to tell you.
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  #13  
Old 3 Apr 2003
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Thanks Fred for the help bought a new Yamaha XTZ660 rectifier - £50 GBP

All others that were available were standard patent kits with no fitting blocks etc, and much more expensive 70 - 100 GBP.

Fitted and now working great - for peoples reference later...

Rectifier Output

Idling - 13.5v DC
2000 RPM - 14.2v DC
2500 RPM - 14.8v DC - Steady there up to rev limit.

With Lights on -

Idling - 12.7v DC
1800 RPM - 13.7v DC
2000 RPM - 14.2v DC
2500 RPM - 14.8v DC - Steady there up to rev limit.

Great - I hope this means it will now charge the battery when running.

Thanks again.

Tony.
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