2002 XT600e starting woes - grrrrr
 

Hey guys and girls.

(I'll preface this with saying I have very limited mechanical knowledge, and definitely no electric start knowledge).

Long story short, bike was running fine. No real problems.. I fitted a rear rack and to do so had to disconnect the rear indicators. So I put everything back in place, tested indicators, worked fine.. then pressed e-start and 'click', tried again 'click'... tried again and it started.

I say 'click', the sound wasn't coming from the engine, was something in the starting assembly.

From here, I tried switching the indicator connections incase I'd plugged them in the wrong sockets and restarting and got the same hit or miss 'click' or start.. .prob started 1 in 5 times.

Kept experimenting trying to start and it started making a load of new weird noises. Now it won't start at all.

Here is an audio recording of all the grunts it is making:
http://wtrns.fr/4Enag7CDNYFCsA (3mb file)

I charged batt over night and according to charger the batt is full. But still won't start. The lights do turn on.

IT IS DRIVING ME CRAZY!! :stormy::stormy::stormy: haha.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm not sure if I wired the indicators wrong which cause a problem somehow, or if its just coincidence.

A friend of mine thought the batt was fried, failing that the starter motor. Like I said, the lights turn on. So can I eliminate a flat or screwed battery?

I'd trade this switch for a kickstart any day!

Thanks in advance.

Hi.
Listened to your recording.
Can you find your solenoid and bridge the two thick cables that are bolted to it with an old spanner or something to make a connection and see if it still refuses to turn over. You're just basically doing the job of the solenoid really.
If it's the same check all the earth connections and battery connections, remove and clean and make sure they are making a nice clean contact.
Are you sure your battery is ok!
Most car shops can do a high rate discharge test for you to check it!
Let me know how you get on mate.
All the best. Dave.

Thanks a lot for your input and for checking the audio file.

I just checked the battery with a multimeter and it said 12v, so between that and the green light on the charger I 'presume' the batt is doing its job.

The odd thing is, it kind of got worse. Which makes me wonder if its some kind of part that wears, like I said, at first it was starting 1 in 5 times, and that gradually got less and now it just makes weird noises!

Not sure where to find the solenoid, will check manual and have a google.

Will have a go at removing, cleaning and reconnecting batt too.

Thanks again for input!

I would support djorob on this opinion.

To me it sounds most likely like a weak battery. It could show 12V, but be still too weak in amps (?). Or the contacts can be oxidized, but you would see that right away.

Solenoid could be also faulty, you would see that after checking like djorob suggested - with a wrench or something else, to shorten the solenoid's contacts (to do it's job). If that doesn't help, I guess you should try jumper cables and crank if from your car's battery.

My guess is that it's the battery, I would give 99% that it's too old/flat/dead/etc.

Keep us posted and good luck bier

Rob..

Did a bit of googling and found solenoid..

When I tried, I got some sparks and a kind of faint attempt at turning over the motor. Almost like it wanted to run, but was far too much of a weakling to fire into life.

What should happen? Should you be able to start just from link the two with a spanner?

I was just pressing the spanner onto the two connectors, should I have disconnected the them and don this directly from cable to cable?

Sorry for the noob questions and thanks again.

God bless the internet. ha

Doesn't matter if these cables are connected to the solenoid or not.
That's my solenoid http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...n-dscn7322.jpg
If I would shorten these two red cables (connectors) with a spanner, it would crank over.

Get another battery and try to crank the bike with jumper cables connected to your bike's battery. I am 99% guaranteed your bike will start.

Thanks Zergman. Will try the car option too.

Worst part is I'm right on the verge of leaving for a long trip. I guess if it was going to happen, better to happen now. But still very frustrating, supposed to be leaving later in the week!

I'm wary of ordering parts to fix incase they don't fix the problem, but I guess a new battery couldn't do any harm for safety regardless.

One more question - if I keep trying to start it too much, is there a danger I can fry the starter motor or anything?

I'm now getting a kind of buzzing sound which is worrying.

YIKES!

But don't use a battery that's too powerful, it might damage your solenoid or starter motor. For example diesel car or tractor battery might be too powerful. Best would be another bike's battery or gas powered car battery with lower amperage.

Before leaving for a long trip I would suggest you to change the battery anyway, because you have e-start only. If the battery dies, you have to push your bike God knows how far...

Another solenoid for a long trip would not hurt too, just in case... But I don't think it's a must-have.

If you keep trying you will simply murder your battery completely. But I guess it's dead anyway. I heard in the recording that the solenoid is not always keeping the connection, and that is probably because of low power in the battery. The solenoid is an electromagnet, you give it a little current, and the magnet connects two big wires. There's not enough power to keep the electromagnet connected.

Thanks again Zerg.. new batt is on order. Busy all day tomorrow, batt should arrive on Tues so will have another go with fresh batt.

You think I could have caused any damage to starter motor from trying to start it so many times?

Hi.
From what you've said the battery does seem suspect.
A good battery at full charge should show 13.2v (2.2v per cell) so your voltage seems low.
If you can jump to a similar Amp-Hour battery this will show it up.
Is the bike battery a sealed one?
If not have a look at the electrolyte levels.
If your new batt or jumping doesn't change things then look at connections and starter motor next.

With the info you've given it does point to the battery.

Odyssey batteries have a rep for good perfofmance/life.

All the best mate.
Dave.

Thanks Rob!

I've ordered a batt already, so will fit it on Tues and fingers crossed that fixes it. Otherwise sounds like a whole other can of worms needs opening.

Went for this one from wemoto:
Yamaha XT 600 E 99-03 Battery Motobatt Sealed High Torque Parts at Wemoto - The UK's No.1 On-Line Motorcycle Parts Retailer

I just found it odd the way what ever is happening wasn't consistent, it almost regressed with each try and now its making a totally new noise than it was at the start.

Failing that will have to find a mechanic, which sounds heinously expensive.
:(

I have those batteries in all my bikes...excellent....

Hi, Fraser

Yeah, that's what I wouuld expect from a dodgy battery: it regressed with each try because the already-insufficient power is depleting further. Also, if you're UK-based, it's just starting to get a tad chilly, which will also affect your battery. It may have only just been 'getting by' in recent weeks but is now really struggling because the ambient temperature is significantly lower and it may be beyond its serviceable life, anyway.

A motorbike-battery 'smart charger' may be worth getting: I had a similar problem once, bought one of those Oxford Oxymisers and coaxed the battery back to life (even though the Oxymiser initially indicated that the battery was shot). I used that battery - which I'd originally presumed to be knackered - for a couple of years, after that.

I don't think so.
The solenoid cannot hold connection, and disconnects. If so would happen, and only IF, that you would (for example) connect the two solenoid terminals by, let's say again, a wrench, and hold it too long, it might be bad for the motor. Current would be too low to turn the motor, but might be just enough to heat the starter motor's coils and maybe shorten it.

Keep us posted :scooter:

Bump start the bike.... If it starts, then it's most likely your starter relay (solonoid).

Your starter motor is also JUST A MOTOR. You could take some jump leads from any 12V battery and just get it spinning that way.

The clicking sound is almost certainly your starter relay.

I had much the same on my 600 single (not a Yam but similar technology) last year. Bike started fine at home and I rode a couple of miles to get some fuel. Trying to restart at the pump gave exactly the same symptoms you describe. I tried all of the tests that everyone here suggested but ended up having to push it home. New battery fixed it.

(Bump start the bike.... If it starts, then it's most likely your starter relay (solonoid). )

The bike is a runner, it's the electric start that is the focus.
A poor battery won't fully energize the solenoid so you'll get a click or buzz without a full connection to the starter motor.
The solenoid has already been bypassed by a direct bridge with no improvement.
If, with a good battery, the problem persists then examine other components in the system.
Dave.

Hmmm. Well fingers crossed I didn't hold the spanner on for too long :eek3: that sucker was sparking a lot. At work today, will fit batt tomorrow and update. Thanks again guys. Really appreciate it.

Damn, doesn't sound like fun. I'm really hoping a batt fixes mine.

I,ve just ordered an overhaul kit for my 1vj started motor...40 kiwi dollars from america...i ll let you know if its any good......starter absolutley shit itself and the new kit comes with bearings seals and brushes....

Just to point out here.. Solenoid and starter relay are two completely different things!

Solenoid A.K.A Starter Solenoid is the roundish piece with a metal casing.
Starter relay is similar looking as the black flasher relay but has 4 prongs (two rows x two columns).

The most "complex" situation is the dead battery could be caused by a bad alternator (A,K.A) Stator, which kills the regulator/rectifier which then causes the battery to boil and die thus causing your starting symptoms.

Now, First things first you have to do is get a Multimeter, one with sound continuity test is most suitable!

Things to test:

#1-On the engine's left handside, behind the left seat side cover comes there is a plug with three white cables.
Disconnect the plug, set the multimeter on the continuity test and test continuity between all three cables. cable 1 and 2, 1 and 3, 2 and 3. the order doesn't matter, you just have to check all of them. There has to be continuity between all three cables and there CAN NOT BE continuity to ground!

3-phase Alternator Stator Charging System testing with a DVOM meter on a motorcycle Road King - YouTube


#2- On the same left side of the bike, with the left seat side cover off, you have the airbox!

If you look closely, there is an electric plastic part attached to the airbox with a rubber band, that is the starter relay! Very similar to this one:
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...rter_Relay.jpg

To check it you have to set the Multimeter to continuity test!
There are 4 prongs! (some people call them pins)


This time the order of the testing probes IS IMPORTANT!

Test the all the prongs, put the Red testing probe on one prong and check all other three prongs with the black testing probe. Choose another prong and repeat! do it to all of them!

Now, REVERSE, put the black testing probe on one prong and check all the other three prongs with the red testing probe.. Choose another prong and repeat! do it to all of them!


On the Multimeter display, you should see a voltage drop of around 0.5volts. Three prongs should show a voltage drop while one of them should not!
I don't remember which way the testing probes should show the voltage drop, maybe someone else could fill in on this part.


#3-When the new battery you bought arrives, fit it to the bike and start it!
Get the multimeter, set it to DC 20volts and check how much voltage is going to your battery. Place the red testing probe on the battery positive and the black testing probe on the battery negative!
Let the engine warm up for a minute or two,
Give it a couple of throttles a few times, and check the multimeter display! It should show a voltage of ~13.4 to ~14.7 volts.
Assuming the Alternator (stator) is good, A voltage any lower or any higher than this, means that your regulator/rectifier is damaged and needs to be replaced or it will kill your new battery in no time flat!



One good thing you can and should do is check the battery cables and where they connect to!
Specially the Black ground thick cable that attaches to one of the bolts that holds the e-start motor on top of the engine!
Remove that bolt, it should be full of crap, clean it or replace it or just change it with the other bolt that holds the e-start motor.

Lastly, before that trip you are planning, regrease the wheel bearings, put fresh grease on the lubricating nipples on the swingarm and rear shock! Check your brake pads and properly inflate your tires..


One last thing, good luck and be safe on the trip!



Vando :cool4:

Thanks so much Vando. That's an incredible amount of info to post. I'll have to try and absorb all of that in the morning.

If it makes a difference, the past owner of the bike barely used it for 5 years, from looking at MOTs he literally did like 1-200 miles some years. So not sure if that has any affect. I'm not sure when this battery was last replaced though.

Cheers!

Just get a set of jump leads and a healthy battery....

It's really all you need to see what's up here :thumbup1:

Cheers Ted. Only other motorbike in the garage is an RM125. Don't even know if that has a batt. haha.

New batt should be arriving today so we'll give it a go.

Hey guys...

SO, your diagnosis was correct.

Dropped in new battery and the bugger started first time! Followed by a massive ear to ear grin by myself. haha.

Checked it with multimetre while it was running and was over the 14 mark.

I guess this was actually pretty lucky for me, perfect timing for the batt to die and I got a wee crash course in the process. I now know what a solenoid is. haha.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Great news mate.
Glad you got it sorted!
Dave.

Congrats! I know that feeling, hehe... :innocent: