Western Women and Hijab / scarf in Muslim Countries

[Homers GSA]

Howdy

Once Covid is done with our family will be heading over to Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia and then into Europe.

So it’s me, my wife and two older teenage daughters. Western born and bred

I am after constructive advice on how to address the issue of travelling through Islamic countries and in particular the wearing of head dress for women in these countries (Hijab etc).

My wife and daughters are all modern, western women who have lived in a western democracy and though they are not bra burning feminists, they all view the wearing of the hijab etc to be male domination over women. You get the picture.

Other than “its their country deal with it”, how would you address the issue or at least put forward an argument for visiting Islamic countries where this is custom.

I have no issue with it, having lived and worked in countries where Islam is a power, but struggle to explain why they shouldn’t, or at least maybe shouldn’t?

Cheers

Homer


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[mark manley]

I would look around and follow how the local women are dressed which will vary even within each country, in many parts of Pakistan for instance a head covering would be advisable but in parts of the north I have noticed the women with no head covering, a few miles away in more conservative towns the women were fully covered in a burka.
If they have a problem fitting in with local custom I would say stay away as it could cause a problem not just for them but also for you as the male who will be seen as "in charge" of them.

[Toyark]

I'd suggest the concept of 'if you are going to visit a new country it is about learning about them not judging them'.
Respecting their customs and beliefs- whether they agree with them or not, is mandatory.

If they are not sufficiently mature to understand this concept, I'd bypass the countries they could not 'cope with without risking a careless comment' or wear a tank top and tight shorts (as I have witnessed in Morocco which did not go down well...) which could have serious, read very serious consequences. It is, after all their country and their rules- Still can't cope? walk on and go elsewhere- it is a big world out there. Best be safe rather than very sorry.
My tuppence. Spend it wisely

[grumpy geezer]

Any attempt to adjust to local dress code will be appreciated by most local people. No one appreciates clueless superior better than you outsiders showing no respect for local norms. I live close to New Orleans. Outsiders at Mardi Gras assume exposing yourselves everywhere in the city and being a bad drunk is okay. The cops allow it on Burbon St, elsewhere you can get arrested. Watch what is expected around you.

[PanEuropean]

I've spent a lot of time in Indonesia & Malaysia, and based on my experience there, I don't think that either of those countries will present a problem for a Western woman who elects to not wear a head covering.

But, having said that, things will vary from place to place. It's highly unlikely anyone would expect a Western guest to wear a head covering if you are staying in a hotel or shopping in a mall in the capital city (Jakarta or Kuala Lumpur), but expectations might be a bit different if you are touring a cultural site that is in a small rural community. So best to perhaps suggest to the females in your entourage that they keep a lightweight scarf in their pocket or purse, and take their cues from the locals. They don't necessarily have to wear it in the tightly-worn manner that Islamic women in Indonesia & Malaysia do - no-one would expect that - but just putting a scarf over one's head, if everyone else is wearing a hajib, is sufficient courtesy and will be appreciated & respected by the locals.

You might also want to tell your female teenagers that dress customs like this have nothing to do with "male domination over women". For example, growing up in Canada in the 1950s and 1960s, I remember that it was essential for women to wear some kind of head covering when entering a Roman Catholic church - I still have memories of my younger sister forgetting her hat, and being given a Kleenex by my grandmother to put on her head. Clothing customs are funny worldwide... imagine what a businessman from Saudi Arabia must think of the silliness of western businessmen wearing a long, thin piece of fabric wrapped around their neck, tied in a fancy knot and hanging down the front of their shirt (what we Westerners call a 'tie'). Meanwhile, those same Western businessmen are wondering why the Saudi guy has a fan belt on the top of his head.

Of greater concern than a head scarf is what you would call "modest dress", meaning arms covered, modest skirt lengths, no bare bellies, and not wearing the type of clothes that female teenagers wear in Western countries.

Be aware that there are dress customs that men need to be aware of as well. Shorts for men are a no-no - a real cultural faux pas - in most Islamic countries. In Japan, tattoos are associated with criminals, so if you have any tattoos on your arms, you might want to pack a few long-sleeve shirts.

There's lots of advice out there on travel sites aimed at the general public - go do a little browsing and see what you find.

Michael

[Homers GSA]

Thanks for the advice thus far.

They have their heads screwed on and have travelled widely, so they would never dream of behaving or dressing in a manner that would upset anyone.

It’s more a case of putting together a reasonable argument when they say “not going there, they subjugate their women.” I imagine we wont be visiting Texas anytime soon as well.

EG: I am not interested in travelling through India. Just couldn’t be bothered being with the mess, the insanity of the driving, the caste system and all the myriad of other issues. Now I bet you could make a good argument as to why I am wrong, why I should visit, and I probably should. Thats kind of what I mean. My perception is most probably wrong, but thats my perception. How do you change that perception.

Actually, Texas may have just given me a plan. We wouldn’t NOT visit Texas because the govt is, or plans to, restrict women’s rights. It’s just a small part of the culture that doesn’t affect us.

Might be onto something.

(PS. This is not a religious abortion discussion, just looking for examples )


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[markharf]

So you're really just looking for ways to convince your wife and daughters to go to countries (and states) which subjugate women? Or are you, as it originally seemed, looking for ways to convince them they'll be ok wearing head scarves on occasion?

FWIW, I do disagree with the proposition that this is not, in part, about misogyny and power. Of course it it...in part. That's true in Texas, and it's true in India whether Hindu, Muslim, or other, and it's true in Afghanistan or [you name it]. Might as well add Williamsburg, Brooklyn to the list while we're at it.

Everybody draws the line in different places, depending on their values and their sense of what lessons they're teaching by visiting a place as tourists. My sisters won't go to China, and for 4 solid (recent) years refused to visit the USA as well. I draw the line differently, but wherever I go I try not to offend the locals, and this means wearing a head covering at the wailing wall, removing shoes in various places of worship (but not others) while covering both male and female shoulders and, as was stated above, wearing long pants no matter how uncomfortable in, for example, Arabic countries.

There are so many other restrictions on behaviors that to draw a line in the sand over this one seems pretty narrow. What are they going to do when they find themselves in cultures where they can't talk, smile, or even gesture at men, while you can't so much as appear to recognize the existence of local women? Have a snit, and miss some truly remarkable cross-cultural experiences?

Hope that's helpful, and hope they lighten up.

[mark manley]

Originally Posted by Homers GSA

EG: I am not interested in travelling through India. Just couldn’t be bothered being with the mess, the insanity of the driving, the caste system and all the myriad of other issues. Now I bet you could make a good argument as to why I am wrong, why I should visit, and I probably should. Thats kind of what I mean. My perception is most probably wrong, but thats my perception. How do you change that perception.

Your perception is pretty much spot on and the place drives me nuts at times but for some reason I keep going back, I have spent a total of around 2 years between India, Pakistan and Nepal, ridden 20,000 miles and visited the length and breadth of the sub-continent, I would recommend it to any traveller if only to confirm their worse suspicions but with the chance of finding a place they are drawn back to time and again.

[sushi2831]

Hello

You say, you have no issue, but you (as a man) never have to wear any of that stuff, that's just an issue if you are a woman.
How much compromise did you (as a man) have to make while living in countries where Islam is a power?
Where would you draw the line for you in adjusting to the culture of your guest country if it's really bothering you?
The women in your family are 100% correct in their view of this issue.
IF they really want to visit islamic countries, they will find a way to deal with those issues, but don't try (as a man) to convince them that it's not a big deal.


Choose the countries where all of your family feel comfortable.
Happy planning and trip.

sushi

[PanEuropean]

I don't think that ALL of the customs that apply to dress for women in Islamic countries have their roots in subjugation of women.

Sure, things like burkas obviously do, but so far as head coverings go, take note of my comment up in post #5 about the requirement for head coverings in Roman Catholic churches in Canada back in the 1950s and 1960s.

Note also that head coverings are customary for men in many Islamic countries.

Also take note that the requirement/custom to dress 'modestly' in many Islamic countries also applies to men - it is terribly inappropriate to wear shorts, and if you look at most men in Islamic countries, you will see that their arms are always covered - short sleeve shirts are not worn.

I guess what I am trying to say is that you can't tar everything with the same brush of "subjugation of women" - you need to look at the context and the nuance of local dress customs. I've worked in a number of Islamic countries as an aircraft pilot, and when I see a whole bunch of labourers at an oil site out in the desert, with no women at all within 50 miles, and they are all wearing long pants and long sleeve shirts in 100°+ temperatures while digging a ditch, it's pretty clear to me that those dress customs have nothing to do with subjugation of women.

Michael

[markharf]

Originally Posted by PanEuropean

I don't think that ALL of the customs that apply to dress for women in Islamic countries have their roots in subjugation of women. Michael

Of course not. If anyone here said anything about "ALL" customs, I must've missed it. But parallels to restrictions applied to Roman Catholic women don't do much to support your case, since that church--and many others you could name--ALSO have long histories of subjugating women, expressed in part by restrictions on their dress, behaviors, political freedoms, freedom, of movement, etc. And restrictions which are also imposed by cultural or purely religious structures on men certainly don't negate the rather more severe restrictions on women--one doesn't justify, or even dilute, the other.

These are not polarities--either all right or all wrong. Every culture, every country, every religion or philosophy exists on a continuum, and none (to my knowledge) are perfectly pure. As relatively sophisticated travelers [sic], we're supposed to be able to see the grey areas between the polarities better than a lot of people, and that's I'd hope for the wife and daughters of the OP.

At which point, they may decide not to visit any predominantly Muslin countries--a terrible loss to them, in my view--or even, like my sisters, to avoid the USA.

It's obvious I've got too much time on my hands while recovering from surgery. I hope my posts are received in the constructive spirit in which they're intended!

Mark

[sushi2831]

Originally Posted by PanEuropean

Note also that head coverings are customary for men in many Islamic countries.

Hello

Does a man in those Islamic countries face prosecution if he does not?
Does anyone in Islamic coutries expekt a western man to wear that?
Does a western man face prosecution if he does not?

Did your canadian women of the 1950 face prosecution if they did not wear it?

If you as a western man wear shorts, yes that may be rude, but will you face prosecution?

Every culture has traditions but if only one gender faces prosecution for not following it, it is subjugation of that gender.
Downplaying is approval.

It is easy for me, as a white man, to travel in moderate Islamic countries.
Just don't be a jerk and you're fine.
I'm not sure if I would go there if for me would apply the same subjugating rules as do for women.

sushi

[Homers GSA]

Thanks for all that replied.

At this stage I think we will hit Malaysia or Indonesia up first. Moderate countries first and see how we go.

My girls talk to just about anyone so it may be enlightening for them to interact with everyone and come to their own conclusions in country.

A funny observation though, when I worked in counter terrorism I liaised/interviewed/chatted with many Muslim people. When in the home, I reckon about 70% of the women ran the place and the males were under the thumb. The women would correct them and pull them into line quick smart, far more than western women IME.

Cheers all


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[Wheelie]

Wherever you go in the world you will find dress expectations towards dress codes - for not only gender distinction, but also for different circumstances (celebrations, religious rituals and holidays, weddings, mourning, fine dining, beach wear, business attire, public appearances, public office, - the list goes on and on).

Some of these might be related to subjugation, others might not. Some may find that women not being allowed to go completely topless where men are allowed to be subjugation of women - even where your children is from.

Breaching with customs may in some instances raise eyebrows amongst some, in other cases it will provocate. In other cases your foreign culture might be welcomed and found amusing or interesting. In all cases it is wise to try to be respectful.

To comments that men are not subjugated to similar expectations is incorrect. Try as a man to grow long hair or wear women's clothing in Saudi Arabia and see how the police will treat you.

My argument to my own children would be. If you think that subjugation may be the case, wether your assumptions are correct or not, that actually makes for a very strong reason to go. Go to learn. Go to have respectful and open conversations about the topic with those that are subjugated to that culture. Leave an impression and be open to have an impression indented in yourself. Assimilation through cultural exchange, as well as respect and understanding of cultural differences, are both paths to bridging the gap towards a more civilized world - ignorance or unwillingness to have one’s own convictions and predispositions challenged is just the opposite. By refusing to go by such an argument, one is part of a problem, not a solution - for creating a better world.

Your girls should most surely go with such a disposition, and when there - remember they have two ears and one mouth, and to be sensitive and respectful towards their native hosts. The object should not be to push their convictions down anyone's throats or to ridicule, but to learn and to share insights into their own culture - without hovation - telling people that one's own culture is superior is just pathetic and ignorant as all f- what is best for each of us is up for each and everyone to decide for themselves.

[Tomkat]

When in Rome, etc.

It's quite simple really, if you don't want to respect the culture of the places you visit, don't go there. And if you do go, go with eyes and mind open.