Price of performance?
 

yes, that's right, another which bike to buy...

So, (me and my girlfriend) are planning a three week trip to Algeria and do not have suitable bikes yet. (our TW125 or CBR 900 streetfighter don't really work for several reasons :innocent:)

Bikes will be transported to the Ferry, so almost all riding will be on African soil.
We are looking to spend under 3000 euros per bike (mods and all)
After a lot of reading (here and elsewhere) on the list at the moment:

XT600E (Cheap, simple, but relatively heavy, sh*t suspension)
[EDIT]TTR250 (Cheap, simple, lightweight, reasonable suspension, pretty much unobtainable in Holland)[EDIT]
DRZ400S (lightweight, reasonably powerful, but more expensive and watercooled, so more complicated/more stuff to break)

Aargh, how bad is an XT really at offroading?
Do we really need a light (ish) bike that much?
Is 5000k in three weeks too much on a DRZ?
We do not have that much Offroad experience, would an XT be too hard?
Should I (more experience, stronger) get an XT and let my girlfriend ride a lighter bike? (easier to ride/pickup)
If we get an XT, should we consider the (old) XTZ660?

:helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie:

Edit: added TTR250, added budget

Its horses for courses really the difference is 15kilos tops in weight difference..

There are other issues to consider, quality of fuel (XT wins hands down on poor fuel running ability with its 8.2:1 compression compared to the DRZ400s 11:1 or 12.1:1 for the E version).

Height , the DRZ is MUCH taller,

Cargo carrying capacity , the XT can take alot more the DRZ needs bracing on the rear frame.

Both also need mods , the DR and XT have poor bash plates,

Also watercooling = more power and longer engine life, at worse you seize the piston.

But aircooling = simplier and its harder to overheat the bike (at worse you increase the engine wear and rebuild time).

Also unless you are bringing spare sprockets the DR400 will be running at higher revs on the road bit through Europe high revs for long periods = bad , while the XT I think is about 3-4500 rpm (at a guess no tachometer) for 65mph.

Thanks, great..

15 kilos only? I thought those DRZ were so extremely light.
For time and luggage reasons (not wanting to have to bring two sets of riding gear), we plan to do the Harley thing and trailer or ship the bikes to the Ferry, so road miles are not an issue.

But suzi claim the dry weight at 134 which is unrealistic , ie no engine oil , no coolant, no fuel no battery acid no fork oil etc.

Start adding those things you get to about 155 kilos at the very least, an example is Mondo Enduro they got to Magadan for the weigh in for the Aeroflot flight to Alaska and tipped the scales at 151 kilos ie + 21 kilos on the dry weight.

The Suzi DRZ400 is 134 kilos claimed , add in 21 kilos for wet weight and the radiator and coolant and I'd say it comes in wet at about 158 kilos at the very least.

The XT is a claimed dry 154 kilos wet comes in at 170 kilos , mine is slightly heavier due to bigger tank , a bigger bash plate etc.

Also add in that fact that DR350s (at least not sure about the DRZ400) need the sub frame bracing in several places and the weight difference isn't massive. the XT produces its power via CCs, the DRZ produces its power via compression.

Or if you don't like the XT600 why not try the Yam TT600R or TTR600 , in that it uses the same engine as the XT600E for reliability but kick only no battery and Maiceik's came in at 156kilos wet, its seriously tall though. It uses alloy all over to save weight and has joke pillion foot rests. It does have a weakness in that the generator only makes 135watts, while the XT makes close to 300watts.

The red version of the Belguarda TT600R kickstart only , not the TT600RE (electric start) came with front and rear Ohlins suspension also, also you can save weight on the XT600 TT600 bikes by replacing the zorst which is a monster of a thing which turns to rust if you look at it too hard.

No problem with the XT, just wondering if it is the right bike for this kind of trip.

I used to own one, but never offroaded it, just wondering about the off roadability, but I guess our own skills will be the limiting factor.

I think you are probably right with the weight difference being limited. I can probably get my hands on some decent parts (exhaust, skidplate etc.) through some connections, reducing the weight of the XT.

It's no MX bike, but I managed the XT OK on mud and sand.

Andy

Dunno why you don't just get the TT600R in that its an XT600E but Yamaha has done all the weight reduction work for you as well as upgraded the suspension to Ohlins front and rear. Its capable , in that Maciek went from Egypt to South Africa on one with his wingman they have a video on youtube lookup motosyberia and its under one of his videos motoafryca.

Its the R you want not the RE. Wet fully loaded it comes in at 156 kilos , thats with a full acerbis tank, has 43bhp and uses lower compression and is a DRZ400 beater. But they are rare and very very very tall so tall I can't actually get on it without stepping up on the pegs.

As said the trade off on the TTR is that you get joke pillion foot pegs , a joke headlight (a candle would be more effective) also the seat is slightly narrower.

Having ridden the XT600E off road, I've say it was SHITE ! AWFUL suspension and just never felt planted.

DRZ is obviously going to work better off road. Its lighter & better sprung but very tall so not for everyone. It's very popular for green laning.

I wouldn't worry about water cooling. Theres no reason it should fail as long as you use suitable guards on the radiators and keep a tube of chemical metal handy in case of holes.

Whatever you're doing.. If you want it to work offroad then you have to keep the weight down and keep it balanced.

Shit off road riding is what I am worried about.. Especially since we do not have that much experience.
We are not looking to travel the world in three years time, easy going on bad roads.. It will be three weeks mainly on desert roads/pistes and we need to be able get some decent mileage in a day.

TTR is similar priced to a DRZ.. and the R does not have the magic button :innocent:

Oh well, we will need to spend money on prepping whatever bike we get anyway, might just as well get a cheaper bike and make it decent. Millions of people have travelled through Africa on XT's :mchappy: why would we need to spend twice the money for a three week trip?
Ghenghis Khan conquered half the world on an XT, they used to ride the Dakar on them..

Can you hear me convincing myself?

Don't get me wrong, the XT is VERY capable of doing the job.. It will just take more skill and strength. There will be more sweat and tears but there is always going to have to be a compromise somewhere..

I rode light off road on my XT and I never felt like I was in control, it was too heavy and the suspension did me no favours... I've then done some very technical and fast offroading on a unloaded WR450 and I've felt like I could win the Paris dakar on it.. Full of confidence and control. I've had a similar experience on a DRZ400S.

I did South America on my XT600E and although it never ever let me down (even when I crashed it twice - OFFROAD), I wouldnt use one again.

I , like yourself am planning a trip from Liverpool-Capetown and im looking for a bike to do it. I currently have an Africa Twin which I know I wont enjoy riding offroad at all...

I'm probably going for a DR650SE or a DRZ400S.. It all depends on my route. The DR650 for a more tarmac based route or the DRZ400 for the offroad route..

If your route is going to be more offroad, then I would go for the DRZ400 or a Yamaha 250 Serrow if the DRZ is too tall for your missis.

The Serrow is very under rated... Nice and light, reliable and will cruise at 65mph. Lois Pryce used one for her Africa Trip.

Seeing as you're taking your girlfriend, she has to be just as happy as you are or your trip will be MISERABLE !!

Hey ted did I buy a footpeg off you recently for an XT , I saw the name tedmagnum on my credit card statement.

I did recently sell one on Ebay yes.

I vaguely remember it going for 99p or something similar LOL..

Hope its ok ?

It went on the bike for about 4 hours , put it on for the MOT , it passed then went home to take it off , can't complain about 99p !.

LOL. Jobs a good'n !:thumbup1:

Great info, thanks, that is the reason why I posted this question. We have recently done a couple of days in the South of Spain on TTR 250s. (torotrail.com highly recommended by the way)

If TTR250's were available here in Holland I would check out one of those, cheap as hell, nice to ride, and durable.

My GF is (probably rightly) worried about having to pick a heavy bike up after a fall. Also, I know from experience that bikes in their element make it easier for their riders.

Dammit..

best of both
 

I don't know what your budget is but I thought I might throw another bike into the mix.

Have you tought about the BMW G bikes? With the engine from the old f650gs they are reliable and have the ability to cover the miles without having to rev the nuts off them like the drz. Compared to the f650 they have been put on a serious diet though, and don't weigh much more than a drz-s. The weight is also carried quite low down and the power delivery is very smooth so they are surprisingly easy to ride off road. The Xchallenge is definitely capable of serious off-road while still being reasonably comfortable over distance. It is quite tall though.

The Xcountry has lower suspension and a lower seat and 17/19 wheels rather than 18/21. You will be able to get tyres in the smaller sizes which will cope with hard surface off-road but not full on knobblies. This shouldn't be an issue as knobblies wouldn't do the miles you are planning either.

One criticism some have of these bikes is the small fuel tank but they are amazingly good on fuel. Over Easter I rode mine down through France then took in a load of off road, ending up at Santander for the boat home. Off road over the mountains, loaded with camping gear etc for a week away, the bike was perfect and gave over 75 mpg. That gives a range of 140 miles.

I got my Xchallenge last year for just over £3k from Vines of Guildford. They get the bikes from the bmw off road school which they sell on cheaply. One advantage of these bikes, if you are planning to go off-road, is that they come with off road scratches so have already taken the depreciation hit that this brings.

Iain

Thanks, I did consider them, but they are over our budget. no big tanks could be a problem where we want to go.

We are looking to spend under 3000 euros with mods and all.. (older DRZs could fit that bill, XT's definitely do) BMW G's start in at 4500 in Germany, with tax etc. that comes to over 5500..

BMW F650GS is NOT a reliable bike in any respect... !! A quick search of the hub will reveal pages on the topic and many a furious, frustrated and out of pocket owner.

Water pump, reg/rect, head bearings, shoddy build quality and electrical gremlins are just a start...

I was not considering an F650..

That's a bit like a Porsche Boxster: I really want a 911, but this is just as good.. :innocent:

And it's still not getting any easier, while out and about today, we passed a couple of full on Desert XT's in Amsterdam, with all the dust still on them... :cool4:

ever though about the honda nx250 ?
low weight, low height, low power (26hp), low fuel consumption (1L:30km), low tech and easy maintenance.
in africa there is no need to drive fast, you are on holiday
the only down side is the small fuel tank.
with 3000 in the pocket, you will be able to buy the bike and the ridinggear and a custom lugage rack

Thanks, not a bad idea, but a small tank is a definite drawback.

I think it's all relative Ted. I rode down through the Sahara in '77 on an aircooled peaky two stroke RD350. Altogether I rode close to 3,000kms on sand with the longest stretch being the 900km between Tamanrasset and Agadez.

From In Salah down to Tamanrasset I teamed up with a French rider on a then new XT500. His bike was a dream by comparison with the RD - especially considering I was carrying 50 litres of fuel in a plastic jerry can BEHIND the rear axle on my packrack. Talk about a recipe for disaster, eh! :D

A lot of the desert is now tarmac - it wasn't in those days. Yeah, the XT may not be perfect, but sometimes part of the fun is taking an imperfect vehicle into the wrong conditions and just doing it anyway.

Garry from Oz.

Amen to that, I have been thinking of getting an old NATO Guzzi and putting knobblies on.. Just for the sake of taking cool piccies.

My girlfriend (even though she is a natural and probably more gifted than I am) has limited riding experience (and only two days offroad) so she would probably be better off on a bike that is suited to this kind of environment. (and that she can actually pick up if she were to drop it)

And having something that would actually be half decent off road gives you a lot more options than something underpowered and overweight.

So, one bike down... We scored a DRZ400S for the missus..

Looks pretty decent, current owner is a nice guy, seems to take good care of his stuff.. Apparently the bike was used on the road for 20000km and only offroaded for the last 1000.. That's what he says anyway and I guess, looking at the bike, it could very well be true.

So, now to lower the seat, (she hasn't even ridden the bike yet, as it is too high at the moment :oops2:)
Put some allroad tires on and she can get cracking to get used to the bike. Then to score a massive fueltank and we are well on our way to having a decent desert travel bike..

The question remains, should I get the same bike so we can share parts or not.. :)

And the second DRZ is a fact..

on with the preparations..:palm: