hey Mickey, I think you can give up on Yamaha mate ... they seem to be building adventure bikes to consume maximum amounts of steel. If they were serious about his Adventure thing, the bikes would be much much much lighter. The Tenere is the heaviest single cylinder bike on the market, and probably the heaviest single ever built. And now this fat piece of super tenere lard ... it must be the heaviest adventure bike of any description ever brought to market, in the entire history of mankind. If Caterpillar built an adventure bike, it would be lighter than this! The only fit purpose for this "thing" on dirt roads will be to put a slick on the back and give it to road construction gangs as a backup dirt roller.

So two records for Yamaha and their assorted Teneres on their return to this Adventure thing ... records for weight!

If they wanted to be both serious and go into an empty segment of the market, they should work on making a 135 kg, 30 litre capacity adventure version of the WR 450 .... looking something like this: (note, this bike in the pic has a fuel capacity of an incredible 35 litres, and weighs 126 kgs)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...00_3410blu.jpg

Well, I think the ST1200 is a damn fine piece of engineering and I'm gonna buy one as soon as it's been out for about a year and the first release gremlins are sorted - really, I think it's terrific.

It would be nice to see the manufacturers building an off the peg travel bike but actually, I really enjoy turning a non overlanding bike into an overlander !

Yeah its expensive and a pain at times.. But there's something nice about riding something you have adapted and built yourself !!

It's a bit of an A-Team thing !! :rofl:

Hahahaha you know Ted, I think you are probably right. If you could buy the perfect bike off the rack, and if everybody else had one too, it just wouldn't be the same.

I guess we have got used to the mentality that you need to build (rather than buy) the ultimate adventure motorcycle, and for me, its become almost as much a part of the fun as the riding. Its become an essential part of the process.

Of course you could (and many people do) tour on a stock bike, but there would be something less satisfying in that for me.

Its a good point you have made!

The Dakar connection is a very valid one ... back in the good old days (like the early 1990s) when Yamaha did well in the Dakar, the adventure bikes on the market were very different. They were all MUCH closer to what actually raced in the Dakar. The Tenere's were sub 160 kgs (back in the 1980s they were sub 140 kgs). Cagiva, who also did well in the Dakar, sold the 750 and 900 Elefant complete with their Dakar lucky strike livery, and again the Adventure bikes in the showrooms were much much closer to the Dakar race bikes than anything now. Even BMW with bikes like the 900RR in the Dakar were much closer to production adventure bikes than anything now.

Its Yamaha that should take note ... and note that the difference between a good, fit for purpose Adventure bike and a Dakar bike (as per their own glorious past) is actually relatively small. A detuned more reliable engine, a softer suspension, a decent seat, luggage carrying capability, regular instruments ... that about it really.:cool4:

I thought the F650 Dakars held that honor? A F650 Dakar with no luggage weighs in at around 425 lbs. (193 kgs.) wet. The 660 Tenere' claims to be
403 lbs. (183 kgs.) Dry., probably about 440 lbs. full of fuel. So the BMW is lighter, but not by much.

Reports I've read claim excellent handling off road for the Tenere' and I know you've seen Jmo's reports. So it may be heavy but in stock form I'd say it's more sorted than the Dakar or current G650 BMW single.

I think you're being a bit hard on Yamaha. Yamaha can build any bike they choose. In this case they see the market for the Tenere' 1200 as folks who won't likely being doing much off road at all, but want that image and most of all want a comfy Torque monster that looks the part and can cruise the highway at 100 mph, two up. In any case, it's no heavier than either the early 1100GS or 1150GS, which are 70 lbs. heavier than the R1200GS.

I agree with you. It would be nice if they did a nice Enduro bike based on the WR450, not a $50,000 Dakar racer as pictured, but an upgraded WR250R, perhaps with a "Dakar" package offered?
I hope you don't expect two wheel drive?

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c7...00_3410blu.jpg[/quote]

Lets all forget buying off the peg new travel bikes. It's never going to happen. It hasnt really existed since the 90's has it ?? The Africa Twin, dommy, transalp and R100's dissapeared years ago in any real travel format.

I was playing with the idea of starting a business specializing in off the peg overland bikes. Basically buying a load of low milage or well maintained "base package" bikes and doing all the relevant servicing and prep work for people who can't be bothered or don't have the knowledge.

Just the basics such as a bigger tank, bash plate, luggage frames, touring screens, footpegs, fitted for spares etc.

Then I realised the market is sooooo small and that real travellers are usually very penny pinching and involved, that I would be lucky to even make my money back let alone taking even a small profit for my time.

My point being, these big expensive "Adventure" bike arn't aimed at travellers at all. They are aimed at men who just want to look at one in their garage and dream or fantasise that they arn't locked to their 9-5, 2.4 children , morgage and car payment life !!

I used to work for a large chain of Motorcycle dealerships as a salesman.. I have dealt with hundreds of such people !! It's a skill you need in bike sales... To play to a mans dreams ! Be it to rekindle their youth or whatever....

That's not a bad thing, everyone is allowed a dream of escapism !

I don't know why I let myself get worked up about it all... :innocent:

177 kgs dry the Dakar, and 175kgs for the smaller wheeled 650GS

2005 BMW F 650 GS Dakar specifications and pictures

They are fat, but not as fat as the Tenere. I would say the Dakar has a much more sorted engine. Neither the Tenere nor the Dakar have great suspension, but I would point out that many Dakars have gone round the world with stock suspension and loaded up. Doesnt mean they handle well, sure. But at least they have a track record.

Jen's Tenere is a bad example for illustrating the quality of Tenere suspension. There is nothing stock about her suspension at all. On the front she has aftermarket triple clamps, a KTM front wheel, and WP forks. The entire front end has been replaced. At the back she has an aftermarket shock, spring and wheel. Of the entire suspension, front and back, only the swingarm is a Yamaha part.

Compared to the Dakar, which has been around since 2001, the Tenere is heavier, taller, makes less power, uses more fuel. Quite literally, its 10 years out of date.


How much is a WR450 in the US? 7,000? Maybe it would cost another $1000 - $1500 if you made an adventure version in the factory. Its mostly plastic tanks and panels. Detune the engine a touch, slightly different suspension and a better seat and subframe. A Dakar bike is only $50,000 because everything has to be custom made. Make plastic panels and tanks in the factory and they are practically free.

:offtopic::offtopic:

Straying off topic here .... sorry all!

Wet weight is as I quouted. 425 lbs. (193 kgs.) I think the new G650 is about the same. Really not bad when considering all the extras it comes with. ABS, F.I. center stand and more. Nice, comfy, easy to ride bike. But my DR650 is only 425 lbs. and that with all luggage on board, 5 gallons of gas, and at about half the price!

Seems the 660cc Yam motor has been around a long time. We never got the bike in the US, but I see the XT and 660 seem to be pretty popular in the UK and EU. Quite a few fans of it here on HUBB, no? It's not economical compared to BMW but pretty reliable according to some here.

I have read a lot of RTW reports with the F650/Dakars with plenty of problems on those reports. In fact your buddy Tony had his shock mount break off, which has happened on several others as well, no?

I'm sure XT/660 reports show some negatives too but can anyone ever match that Smelly Biker guy? The F650's & Dakars lose it for me just based on batteries/overcharging problems and bearings alone!

I don't know a thing about her bike ... maybe she can chime in here. She seems quite capable of pleading the Tenere' case! :innocent: But if the Tenere' needs all that to be rideable then that is a big disappointment to me. I wonder what her loaded up bike weighs? Guess I'll be sticking with my old, out dated Japanese dinosaurs for the time being.

Yea, $7000 is about right, although MSRP is about $8000. A true adventure bike would have to be a lot stronger than a stock WR450, which is really a race bike. Seems to me the frame and sub frame may have to be re-worked some for luggage carrying ability. Be a shame if they ended up with another Piggy Tenere'! As you say, better seat would have to be worked in somehow too.

The WR250R is a good example of what can be done. It's 40 lbs.(18 kgs.)heavier than the WR250F (race version). But it is amazing to see how much crap guys are able to carry on the WR250R on tour. ADV rider has huge threads specific to this bike. Impressive reports, most all good. Full street legal bike with all road based electrics. Don't know anyone who has done RTW on a WR250R, but that is bound to happen.

The WR250R however is not very snappy compared to the the WR250F but has great gearing for highway, is well suspended stock and can go 85 mph, and with F.I. gets amazing MPG. (60 to 70 mpg) The WR250F (race bike) tops out (stock gearing) at only 60 mph, sucks gas but is faster and has better out of the box suspension, and 40 lbs. less weight.

But the WR450F would be the perfect place to start. Big tank, sub frame, F.I., wider seat and leave the rest up to the owner. Minimalism is best. I feel there is a good chance Yamaha will actually do this as the WR250R has been a big seller in the USA so far. With taller gearing the WR450 adventure bike could be the real deal. Reliable, packable and touring capable.

But for me, much of life on the road is simply long range road droning and some of this is just plain sitting there ... all day, day after day.
This is where my ancient DR650 Suzuki seems OK. It's comfortable and can be ridden 10 hours a day. Off road, not bad once set up. No, I can't attack a rock section like on my race bike, but I can make it through. Does anyone really ride in attack mode when loaded up with a full complement of luggage? I've seen what happens to the KTM guys when they do this in Baja.:helpsmilie: Bent wheels! Broken radiators and usually a broken collarbone or two! I love KTM's .... would never own another. Young hot shots bike!

Compromises everywhere I guess.

Mcn
 

Super Tenere is in the copy of MCN I just picked up ,.... lets see what they say. Journalists always love these big trail bikes ... and never criticise them, since the bike companies would stop giving them free bikes if they did

It's probably a damned fine bike; I am amazed at the inverted snobbery on this thread.

Many riders of my vintage grew up modifying bikes and keeping them running without dealers - maybe it's just that now we want to simply ride the bloody things, not build them or work on them so much.

It's not a road bike, or an enduro, it's an adventure tourer; it will handle rougher roads very well and be safe and comfortable on the tarmac.

The price is a bit steep but I'd buy one over a GS any day of the week and twice on a Saturday. And I'm gonna.

I was just reviewing the photos on the first couple pages and noticed it said:
"1st Edition" In a not so subtle way, Yamaha may be revealing a long term commitment here to this model. This opens the possibility of significant up grades every year or two ... a la the latest sport bikes. (IE : 2nd Edition!)

No longer can a company just ignore a bike. Bikes now require constant upgrades beyond "Bold New Graphics" to make it fresh every year, changes to solve "problems" and of course more features and even more aftermarket farkles. Yamaha know well how to do this but it's expensive.
But if you read everything about the latest YZ450F or R1, you see just what incredible innovation they are capable of. If the 1200 Tenere' gets even half of this attention it could be a world beater.

I'm thinking this bike will take a good sized bite out of BMW, KTM and Suzuki's market share in the Adventure bike segment. There is risk because trends shift, classifications morph and re-form into all kinds of weird hybridized incarnations. We are a very fickle bunch.

Look at the Aprilia Desoduro or latest Multistrada and or HyperMotos KTM 950SE or SMR. The adventure touring landscape is clearly in flux. IMHO, giant adventure bikes popularity may be on the wane unless lots of creative innovation and marketing are employed ... and soon.

BMW's big GS is losing ground to its own F800GS, Vstrom sales are very slow (Vstrom fans are fed up with a great bike that has never, ever got any love from Suzuki .... talk about blowing it). KTM's are too expensive and still have mechanical issues that should have been purged years ago. At present KTM future is in question. Very thin ice. And why haven't KTM produced a mid-sized Adventure Twin to compete with the F800GS? Something with 20% less weight and better performance??

Another interesting potential player here could be Triumph and the rumored 675cc Tiger Cub Enduro. If done right, it could trump the F800GS
and leap frog everyone in one go. Triumph are perfectly placed to do this, and I hope they jump in.

If BMW put half the effort into a new Adventure bike that they've poured into the SS1000 they could dominate. Will they? :innocent:

Honda? WTF is up with Honda? They had the world by the balls and just let it all go. Imagine a totally modern Africa Twin? Lightweight modern twin motor in super light Ally chassis, top shelf suspension. Could be real competition for Yam's 1200 Tenere' and everyone else. Instead we get the Rune' and other Jackass inspired cruisers that go no where.

Is that such a bad move from Honda's point of view? In almost every biking category, buyers want performance and handling, in a package that excites them, aesthetically.

Cruisers are one segment where handling and performance are not such a big consideration; looks are the deal-closer.

On top of that, as we've sort of established the buying population are often very interested in the image projected.

An image based market that sells on looks not corner speed and chassis tech and weight is not an issue: far lower R&D costs in my opinion and usually quite a big retail price tag....

Sounds like a winner for H, to me....

Since when has being critical of weight on a bike become "snobbery"? All the criticism of the bike in this thread is directed at the weight. Thats one fact about it that we know. Whether is a "damned fine" bike or not, will sell or not etc, is pure speculation. But what we do know as fact is the weight.

The weight appears ridiculous. Consumers being critical of weight is the only thing that will keep the manufacturers focussed on it.

I can say with confidence that the weight is too high ... because we know the weight. Its a fact. How you can say with confidence "it will handle rougher roads very well" is a little beyond me ... that's pure speculation. Wanting Adventure bikes to be lighter is hardly "unreasonable" bias. Making a claim about how well a brand new untried and tested 240kg bike will handle rough roads, sight unseen, simply because you may be a fan of the brand strikes me as an "unreasonable" claim.


Mickey has raised very good points about manufacturers either going in a different direction to consumers or trying to "steer" consumers towards larger, heavier bikes because they are more profitable. Its up to the consumer to be more discerning. BMW will not make an adventure version of the 800 for example because it is BMW policy that the only bike to be promoted as being capable for round the world travel is the 1200. KTM want to spend money upping the 990 Adventure to a 1190 Adventure rather than spend money developing a lighter simpler 690 Adventure, because an 1190 would cost loads more. Again its manufacturers trying to develop larger heavier more complicated bikes despite no-one with a 990 screaming for 200cc more, and despite hundreds of customers around the world screaming for a 690 Adventure. The jury is out on whether they should build to meet demand or rather build according to pre-determined marketing policy is best in the long run. But certainly pretty much all the manufacturers operate on the "if we build it, they will come" approach, rather than specifically trying to meet existing buyer demand. i.e. they are trying to create demand, rather than meet existing demand.

If consumers are not discerning about weight (for right or for wrong) then one thing I do know, is manufacturers will make these 'tanks' (Varadero, Multistrada, Stelvio, Tiger) even bigger.

As for the points about the effort and resources brands put into developing bikes, I can tell you it costs infinitely more to develop a new sports bike than to develop an adventure bike. Sports bikes are built to be ultra compact and ultra high tech. They are built with loads of weight saving technology. The money is put into sports bike development because (1) the manufacturers perceive the buyers in that segment as being very critical of those issues and (2) there are a lot more sports bike buyers than adventure bike buyers. They don't perceive adventure bike buyers as being as discerning.

Thats a big part of our problem.

yes the engine is very reliable. Simple, compared to the Rotax, but certainly on the plus side you can say of the Tenere that (1) its very strong ... the subframe looks like its built for carrying a boxes of lead and (2) the engine is very reliable. These points are a good start. If they could make the old engine a bit more modern and fuel efficient, and cut 25 kgs off the bike, we would be getting somewhere.

I have no doubt they could do it. The question is, can they be bothered to do it.

More than any other manufacturers, including BMW and KTM, Yamaha and Honda have the ability to build the best adventure bikes ever ... the ability is there ... the background, the engine development expertise, the technology ... but .... there is no indication (from my perspective) that they want to put any serious resources into it.