Help me choose mild tourer
 

Background: I bought my XT as a winter bike to save my beautiful Ducati from the mud of my daily commute. I found I preferred the XT for 90% of my needs, and although I have changed the 'better' bike several times, the XT is still the bike I choose for most rides. I have toured in Europe (road only) on 'proper' touring bikes (e.g. Honda Pan, Triumph Sprint), but they are not really what I want. I like the tall stance, wide bars and upright position of the XT, and like the way the bike encourages you to take your time and smell the flowers, rather than get your head down and munch the miles at high speed.


So I am considering selling the 'better' bike and getting something more suited to the touring I want to do. Parameters are as follows:

• Ability to cruise at ~70 mph
• All-day comfortable
• Able to take a light pillion along with full luggage
• Upright riding position and easy frame geometry
• Able to tackle light off-road (unmade roads, gravel tracks, nothing serious)
• Robust and able to take a few knocks
• Mechanically/electrically simple (i.e. no CANBUS, although FI is fine with me)
• Reasonably light (max about 200-210 kg dry)
• Fast enough to be fun!

The XT already ticks a lot of these boxes, but it is quite elderly and would need quite a bit of work (and expense) before I would be happy with it for a long trip. Also, I haven't enjoyed riding it with a passenger. The weight issue pretty much rules out the 1100/1150GS, and the newer 650/800 GS would probably be too expensive (and I'm not keen on the looks!). I'm 6ft and 15st, so a high seat isn't a problem - in fact, the less I have to bend my knees the better these days :)


Trips would be 90% road and 10% mild off-piste, mostly in Europe. We're definitely planning to tour France and Germany, possibly Italy, and a long-term goal is to visit Nordkapp and also Morocco before I get too old. I can probably spend about £3k, although if I found a bike that ticked all the boxes I might push to a bit more. Bikes I have on a kind of shortlist are:

• Honda Dominator
• Yam XT660R (had one, loved it)
• Yam XT660Z Tenere
• Honda Africa Twin (and Transalp? They seem to have almost identical specs)
• Kawasaki Versys
• Suzuki V-Strom 650/1000
• Triumph Tiger 955i

This isn't an urgent thing. I will probably change before next summer, but until then I am having a good long think. Any observations on the above (and another other suggestions about possible candidates) would be very welcome.

I ought to add that I am a big fan of XTs. I've had 4 (350 x 2, 600E, 660R) and my initial thoughts are towards the Tenere, but I have also hankered after an AT for a long time. I've rabbited on long enough. Over to you.

"Able to take a light pillion along with full luggage"

Some will disagree, but I think that one strongly calls for at least 2 cylinders on the engine.

I know what you are saying. To clarify, the passenger would be my daughter, who weighs about 55kg, and the luggage would be panniers and a topbox. We are not planning on carrying camping gear etc. I may well be camping solo, and I guess the weight of that would be less than a passenger.

Thanks for the response.

Depends on the pillion. For my wife, if we want to do more than 100 miles a day a twin is better. I've done 400 mile days on singles two up where the pillion was limited with what other modes of transport were available and were used to tarvelling light. An F650 pillion seat is better than a back packer bus that isn't due to leave for a week.

For completeness I'd add the BMW G650GS and old single F650 to the list. Had two, know what breaks, consider them no better or worse than anything else. The Tiger is a monster, closer to the big GS's than XT's/Transalps/Wee's.

I'd be buying on condition vs price with a 3 grand limit, so I wouldn't be looking for any specific model, just low miles are careful owners. If you know model years and where to buy bits for Yamahas that would be where I'd look, spend your money on mechanically reliable of sort any minor cosmetics.

I'll give a big thumbs up to the Wee, but I've barely used mine yet so feel free to give due weight to that opinion.

Andy

Get a test ride on a vstrom. I've recently changed from a Zx6r to a strom and love it. Loads of grunt, super comfy, amazing mpg, happy pillions. I've done long road tours and quite a bit of gravel track stuff with it too and enjoyed it all. I had a test ride on the xt660z before i got it and although i liked the motorcross feel of it it just didnt touch the strom for power and comfort in my ability. Also the motor is just so much smoother than the big singles. Like others before me have pointed out the vstrom is not an off road machine but its well capable of gravel fire tracks which is more than most tourers ever see.

You're not the only person to say this to me. I'll try to find one for a test ride, as your description sounds like what I am looking for. I guess what I am hankering after is a bike with the chuckability and general ease of use of my XT600, but with more power, comfort and luggage-carrying ability. Is yours the 650 or the 1000?

(No-one has mentioned the Africa Twin or the Versys yet ...)

Thanks to you both.

I've had similar thoughts to those in your question here BlackDogZ, for similar, but not exactly the same, reasoning.
So far, I have written off any thought of using a single cyl in these circumstances, so they are not on my list for this purpose. As per an earlier post, two, or more, cyls is a must when a pillion is considered.
The AT owners are asking very silly, inflated prices here in the UK which one or two people seem prepared to pay, now and again; in any case quite a few on offer have fairly high mileage which doesn't help in the slightest if you aim to do your own high mileage.
The 650 versys is interesting but it may be a bit weak in the sub-frame; there is a report somewhere in here (Kawa tech I think) that says they are fine for two up, but Kawa do not recommend both a top box and panniers together - so they don't provide fittings for that combination.
The latest Transalp (700cc) is a good bike but the tank range is pretty limited - a problem that is not unique to the Transalp.
For a twin cyl I would add the TDM 850/900 to your own list especially for your proposed budget of 3K; it is on my list.
I also like the cbf1000 in the 4 cyl category; it is very under rated and rarely mentioned for travelling with a pillion.

Thanks for the tip about the Versys. 2-up-ability is essential, but if it can't take topbox and panniers together it's less useful. I'll have a read around about this.

I hadn't even considered the TDM (put off many years ago by Bike magazine's comment of 'don't say the name too quickly') but it looks like it might fir the bill - decent size/comfort/power but not too heavy. 190kg dry is a lot lighter than my old Bonneville, for example.

TDM goes on the list ... thanks.

I did like the BMW F650GS single very much. I went to the Northcape on that bike. About 8000 km in 12 days. No racing, just enjoying the ride.
Trip report here: http://jkrijt.home.xs4all.nl/trips/n2g/index.shtml

Very good fuel consumption, very easy on all kind of roads and a very nice bike to ride.

I tour 2 up on my F650 GS single, and my pillion is 6' same as me, Lightweight camping. It can still cruise at 80 on a dual carrigeway, not that we often do, and as has been said, the fuel consumption is brilliant.
Were off for 3 weeks together around France & Switzerland.

There are other threads in here about the TDM; in fact years ago, the XT600 forum was altered, i.e. enlarged, to take account of the fact that Yamaha do manufacture a range of bikes, including that popular single cyl :innocent:
As for the Versys, Kawa are probably being very cautious about their luggage carrying capability; I would expect that luggage manufacturers, other than OEM kit, would supply a top box and panniers arrangement, so long as you don't exceed the stated all up weight limit for the bike.
In the discussion about this bike, I was interested in it's two-up capability.
I am not sure where that thread is; it could be under the "which bike" forum rather than the "Kawa tech".
It may also be listed as a KLE650 topic/heading?


Agreed, for a single rider with or without luggage it has done a fine job for me also - there is a 7 year old F650GS twin spark in my garage.
The longest single day ride I have done on that bike is about 560 miles in one hit along the 2/3 lane motorways.
It is certainly a very smooth single cyl bike compared with many other singles - there are lots of earlier threads in the HUBB about this bike, stand alone or in comparison with other bikes of similar specification.

I have always shied away from this after experimenting with such a load - it is just personal choice; I agree it can be done, but the passenger may not have the best experience overall.
Maybe it was just the way I ride, but the passenger was constantly banging the front of their helmet against the back of mine!!
Again, this has been discussed elsewhere, so it is a case of whatever floats your particular boat.
I have taken the F650GS around a lot of the Alps and I would not want to have a lot of luggage and a pillion on the bike on such rides; again, just personal choice.

I think the airhead paralever gs should be on your list. Similar weight to the TDM and Africa Twin with the added benefit of shaft drive. Mechanically extremely simple and easy to work on. Excellent 2 up and carries a good load. The only issue is findind one in good order at a sensible price although that probably applies to most of the bikes on your list.

I'm sure that product liability makes a lot of manufacturers very cautious about stating weights etc, just in case someone tries to carry a load of bricks over a ploughed field and then sues them when it breaks :)

Worth a call to Kawasaki, I think, as I like the look of the bike and a friend who has one thinks very highly of it.

The airheads seem to be around the 210kg mark, which is at the upper limit of what I really want. I like the R80GS and especially the R100GS P/D, but there aren't many about, and at around 50/60 bhp they have quite modest power compared to the more modern bikes. But I will keep my eyes open and if I see a good one I will think again.

The 2-up capability is very important if I am to change the Sprint (I am keeping the XT no matter what). If I were going solo, I would just take the XT, no question. I have done a lot of trips on it with camping gear in the UK, and it is ideal. But I have only taken a passenger on it once, and it wasn't a nice experience. The bike was totally unbalanced and a pig to steer.

Thanks for all your comments. You have give me a lot to think about.

Shafties
 

An immaculate, restored probably, 100GS PD was on ebay for a long time with an asking price of just under £10K; these are yet another bike that has become over-rated (whatever that means exactly) and are heading for a collectors' garage.
I can still feel your thought process; a few years ago I stepped off a Honda Blackbird that I was riding two up with luggage and that was a superb touring bike; with a passenger and lots of luggage it went even better, with the suspension operating in the mid-range of it's travel and the back tyre digging deep into the road surface.
Now that the shaft drives are under discussion I would throw in the XJ900, Yamaha Diversion which I used to own a few years ago; that bike is vastly under-rated and it has no direct replacement in the current Yam lineup - the FJR1300 appears to use exactly the same shaft final drive bevel box etc but, after that, the FJR is much heavier and bulkier.
The Divy is a fine bike for two up and nowadays it is very affordable if you can find one for sale; there are a few around, but I suspect that owners tend to hang on to good ones.
You could take your pick of all XJ900s on offer for sale with a 3K budget but you won't get far in the BMW market with that same budget; sad, but that is my assessment of second hand asking prices.
But, it is not just about the all up weight of a particular bike; the CoG of the airhead is relatively low and that will compensate for the bulk of a rider/passenger/luggage at a higher position.
Nor, are top end power figures the full picture; for hauling weight up to a particular speed (i.e. acceleration) the torque output is much more relevant - the airheads have this in abundance, as do V twins.

(I can hear the voices in the background referring to "off road" capability, but none of these shaft drive bikes are for off-roading, depending on how you want to define such activity).

According to the specs I found the standard R100GS is 210kg with a full tank of fuel (23 litres or about 16kg) and the AT is 205kg dry. P/D version is 20kg heavier. I think the bhp figure is about the same as the AT.

I don't put much store in published weight specs. as some bikes feel light others feel like lead bricks. None of the twins on the list can really be called off road capable as they all weigh too much for ordinary riders to throw around with confidence.

Any bike will tackle gravel roads whether it has off road pretensions or not.

I suspected as much about the P/D - great-looking bike, and rare enough to get the 'collectors' salivating. OK, strike that one :)

I'd agree about the power issue. My Ducati (1000cc, 92 bhp) seemed a lot more powerful than my Bandit (1200cc, 100 bhp) just because the power came in much more suddenly and the torque launched it much quicker. I'd go for modest power and good torque any day, so your point is taken.

Thanks for the info about weights etc. Your point is proved by my experience with a Bonnie. I always felt it was a light-ish bike, but the next owner complained it was too heavy for him. When I checked, it was over 200 kg, but it carried its weight low and was quite manageable.

I'd disagree with your last comment, though. My Sprint is very capable on tarmac, but a nightmare on any loose surface - low, narrow bars and a forward riding position mean that you haven't a hope if the front decides to get away. I dropped mine (walking pace, little damage) on a piece of gravelly dirt at work. I can ride the XT across the same ground and it's loose but controllable, never a problem. I guess I am looking for a bike that's half-way between the two. I don't need full-on enduro handling, but a pure road bike is too limiting.

Thanks again, appreciated.

I ran my Bonneville on Heidenau tyres about as knobbly as you could get in the size limit and needing tubed. The difference over what the dealers fit on gravel tracks/rough roads is the difference between dragging your feet in first gear and bimbling along in third. The same roads on the F650 or XT600E I had before would be taken in any gear you liked. Fifty miles of Norwegian detour on the road tyres is hell, on the knobblies just part of the ride and on the "humped in the middle" type bikes a bit of fun.

The odd one is the Enfield which does just seem to go where you point it regardless (and slowly).

Andy

Yes, perhaps I should have said 'any bike with high wide handlebars will tackle gravel roads......' My Le Mans is a nightmare on a loose surface.

Spot on.

For 2 up in europe I've been very happy with my TDM850 although it was a bit cumbersome on the smaller tracks in Corsica. Back home in Canada where the TDM is not available I use a weestrom set up for gravel roads with skid plate, Shinko dual sport tyres etc. It'll take me and a full size passenger in comfort from Alaska to Mexico.

That's another vote for the TDM and the Wee. Forums like this are great - neither bike was really on my horizon when I started asking, but now they are firmly in the frame.

One thing - everyone says that the TDM (850 or 900) are under-rated and therefore cheap, but I have checked out the usual places and they seem to be quite pricey. I like the look of them, though.

Thanks!

I think the newer Tenere would fit your bill and as you are already a fan of XT's you will be familar with the workings and rough layout.

The pillion seat is comfy and it will pull 70-80 mph all day with pillion and luggage whilst still giving good mpg. It really is a go anywhere do anything bike. and they look really good as well

I just happen to know of one for sale that would fit your bill ;)

see the bikes for sale section for my 2008 Tenere :scooter: lovely bike but sadly i need the money :(

BlackDogZulu,
I saw a 650 Versys today fully fitted with Givi luggage; a top box and two panniers - so it can be done!
I am still not sure about that subframe when used with full boxes and a pillion passenger - the Ducati-like trellis framing looks very spindly.
i.e. the subframe tubing is very thin compared with similar designs by other manufacturers, such as the Ducatis or the Yam TRX.
On the other hand, those frames are carrying the weight of their engines.

Great sales pitch! I'm tempted. You have a PM.

I have found a couple of places that sell the full 3-box kit for the Versys, but Kawasaki will only sell you either/or. A friend has just bought an ER6f, and the build on that seems very light, so maybe K are just being cautious. I don't anticipate high speed rough trails with passenger and luggage, so I'm not too concerned - most riding will be on roads, and any off-road forays will probably be unladen. I think I probably need to email Kawasaki and get a definitive answer.

Thank you for your comments.

We rented a V-Strom 650 in South Africa and I also think that it ticks all your boxes. The saddle is wide and comfy for the pillion and rider (my wife weighs 50 kgs as well, no complains). Only downside: maybe too low and bent knees for you? I'm 1,76 and put both feet really flat on the ground, but that also helps to handle it.

I'm no off-road rider, but took some gravel roads and felt it very well, just slowly, but never felt unsafe/slipping.

Nice bike and needless to say more than enough for highways (2 up and loaded). I have an XT600 and also love "to stop to smell the flowers" (liked the sentence, nice image) ;), but it's not the best bike 2up or on highways.

Happy travels, sounds like a very nice experience to travel with your daughter,

Esteban

The V-Strom is looking like a big possibility. Right size, right power, right comfort ... The seat height is 32.5", which is only 1" less than my XT, and 2" more than the Bonnie that was way too low. Could be an issue - I will have to find one to test. Thanks for the warning.

It was great touring with my daughter, and even better when she said she wanted to do it again. I don't want her to be so uncomfortable that she is put off it for life :) If it was just me, I would have the Tenere like a shot, but I need her to enjoy it too.

There are different seats for the Vstrom that raise or lower the height and you can swap the 1000 for the 650 seat to get different heights as well .
Plus raising or lowering links so you should be able to get whatever seat height you want .
Tyres make a huge difference to the way the Vstrom handles , road tyres are great for the road ONLY .
TKC s, Heidenaus or Mitas are necessary for any gravel or off road .
The fuel injection system is rather like an on/off power switch at low speed , which means that on a slippery surface with road biased tyres you will be on your arse before you know it . This is a lot less likely to happen with any of the semi knobblies .

I have a 1000 and although it's Vtwin it probably won't be like your Ducati as the power doesn't come in until you are past 3500 rpm [ redline is 9500 rpm]. I imagine the 650 is more revvy. I get about 55mpg out of the 1000 , the 650 can get 75 mpg ,or so I am told .

My daughter reckons the Vstrom is a roomy and comfortable bike to ride pillion .Which is handy because that's the reason I bought it .

Once you've set the bike up to suit you with regard to screen position , handlebars and seat you will do 1000km days and still feel fresh - if that's what you want to do .

For a 90% on : 10% off road bike it's fine .

I also think that the TDM is a very underrated bike ,the only problem might be tyre availability for the odd sized front wheel .

Hope this helps , shopping for a bike is always good fun .:D

Thanks, Dodger, very helpful. Sounds ideal for my needs.

I've had good experienced with Distanzias and Siracs for mainly road use, so I will probably go for something like those and change for something knobblier if the nature of the trip warrants it.

Cheers.

Hi all
I was in similar dilema:what "serious" bike to put next to my TT600R in garage.Even for price not to have car/van!(well ,my best half has one).
After loong scientific research it was obviously:must be so called big enduro.I think that for 90% on tarmac few kilos more/less is not so important,especially if you are long legged.So here is the list:
new/used:1200 GS,1200Super Tenere ,Varadero,V strom,TDM900..
used:GS,TDM 850,AT,XTZ 750 Super tenere.
BUT money talks,1k euro or 20k euro and all between!
Since money was/is an issue,we have reduced group:
TDM,V-Strom,XTZ
I have ended up with xtz (AT is way overprized) for 1000+500 uer.
For the guy with xt/TT is GREAT bike:
dirty cheap (1k-2k uer)
two up
easy maintain,parts easy available
70-80 mph all day long (6-7 l/100 km= ?mpg)
once on the ground you wont get bankrupt
After few years I can't stop smiling each time I start my old S10.
GL

Another vote for the TDM. I've had an XT600, Transalp and now the TDM. The TDM is by far the better tourer. I find it a very economical, grunty, smooth & relaxed ride on long distance tours.

Thing is, the TDM is physically quite a big bike. The Sprint I have is all of those things (an astonishing 57 mpg (UK) average touring 2-up with luggage, cruising at 90-100 where possible) but I'm looking for something smaller and more manageable. I had a good look at (and a sit on) a 650 V-Strom yesterday, and that is quite big enough for me, I think.

My thoughts have crystallised a bit since my first post. The upright riding position is a must. In fact, I want my XT600E :) but with another 10-20 bhp, a better seat, and a bit better balance (i.e. less top-heavy) for carrying a passenger and luggage. The 660 Tenere would seem to tick most of those boxes, but I am keeping an open mind. Gotta sell the Sprint first!

Thank you for your thoughts.

Is the Teneré that confortable for a pillion? I think that this was a key point for your choice.

It was for me when I rented the V-Strom, otherwise be sure I would have gotten the Teneré, it's a cake, the more I know, the more I love it (well, add that some rentals accepted only 1 up with the Teneré -as the XT660-, but for Southern Africa on rougher roads).

Hi again
IMHO:if you travel long distance with passenger and luggage at decent speed and you want some comfort you need at least 70hp better 80-100 hp.
First rule:forget one cylinder.Even some two cyliner bikes have not enough power (Africa Twin...)
660 tenere is a nice bike,even "tourer" if you want but for one person and better for light off road then for motor way.5 hp more then XT600 (and also 40-50kg!) is simply not enough juice for two up,luggage and decent speed.
All big enduros are big bikes but usually not so heavy as real tourers.
TDM has only some 20 kg more then 660 Ten but also 30 hp more.
There is NO "XT600E" tourer with 70 hp,comfort....on the market today.
Perhaps the best numbers has 800GS,only the number before GBP(Eur)is not so good..

You are right, comfort is important, but even more important is the overall balance of the bike. Stuxtttr (post 22) reckons it's brilliant for a pillion, but then he's selling his! I would need to have a good look at one first. When I last saw a Ten I wasn't thinking of buying one, so I didn't really pay attention.

Sadly, you are right - my 'Super XT600' doesn't exist. Huge distances and speeds aren't really a concern. If they were, I would be keeping the Sprint, which does this very well. I'm more interested in keeping off the motorways and exploring, so the XT's ability to do a feet-up U-turn on loose gravel (which is what I do every day when I get home on it) is more important to me than bahnstorming across Europe. I take your point, though - around 70 bhp would be ideal. I guess the whole exercise is a compromise. I haven't written off the TDM by any means, but since I have been looking I haven't seen a single one on the road ...

(I'm even thinking of not replacing the Sprint but using the money to restore/refurbish the XT and make modifications that will bring it closer to what I need from a tourer. But that would leave me without a bike while I was doing the work, so it's probably not going to happen.)

Thanks again for all your thoughts - this thread is really helping me.

the perfect bike
 

BlackDogZ,
Yes, the train of thoughts are helping me also; but it is quite old ground for me, and there is still no perfect solution.
Yam stopped producing the TDM around 2010 but there are still a few new ones for sale - this kind of tells us that they were never a big seller here in the UK, but overseas would be a different matter.

Anyway, the discussion about the perfection of 70 HP, and the other attributes of bikes, is pointing, increasingly, toward the BMW F650GS twin model.
Now that Beemer have announced the F700GS, the prices of the 650 version may drop a bit and make them better value.

Your super XT600 was produced as the XTZ750 twin of course; they come up on ebay now and again, usually with a few miles on the clocks (and who knows how many more that are not showing on the clock??).
And, when the engines are knackered some folks have fitted .............. wait for it, a TDM850 engine!! :thumbup1:

I did about 60k miles on a Suzuki GS500 on my own and about 10k two up and I am now riding an XTZ 750 two up. More power means more fun but I have to say the 48 something bhp the GS had was just as good for long term touring. All I can see is with the more bhp chain and sprockets, tyres and brake pads won't last too long. Comfort is much better but I could have just as well raised the handlebars on the GS. Plus I find a new problem almost every week... bearings gone, cable connectors melted, exhaust broken in half. Slowly, part by part I restored it now but I would have hated to find out about these things in Mauritania.

I would say, if you like your XT then get a better seat made for it, change whatever you don't like on it. You can do a complete overhaul instead of buying another bike and then you won't have to worry about hidden problems. Or get a GS500 :)

I agree. You seem to love that XT. I bet you could get a seat from a breaker and have a seat with a more generous pillion pad (maybe with a step) made relatively inexpensively. Indeed, you might be able to do it yourself.

More power would be good 2 up but more and more people are swearing by smaller bikes these days.

Personally I don't ride 2 up, but I'm with you on the XT. Mine is quite simply my perfect bike.

Matt :)

Oh, I love the XT all right! I bought it as a drudge bike for winter and bad weather, but these days I ride it in preference to the Triumph (and the Bonnie before that, and the Pan before that, and the Ducati before that).

The problem is that the XT is tired and in need of a good deal of TLC. Tyres and chain need replacing, wiring loom is very flaky, frame and rims are rusty, engine is rattly and down on power ... the list goes on. It could be the basis for a great tourer, but it will need taking off the road and giving some proper money and attention. If I sell the Sprint to fund all of that, I would be without a bike until the work was done, and that can't happen.

If I got a bike that could double as a daily driver and a modest 2-up tourer capable of tracks and mild dirt, I could retire the XT to the garage and do all that work in my own time.

I'll never sell it, obviously.

What about buying a second XT? Hehe

Another XT600E? That had crossed my mind!

If I sold the Sprint I could get a really nice one ...

Stop it, stop it, you're not helping :)

I think I may have found a solution.

The Sprint has proved very hard to sell. I put it on eBay three times but it didn't reach what I thought was a reasonable reserve. I was on the point of trading it in against a BMW K75 with a dealer, which would have fulfilled the 2-up 'slower' touring role, and left the XT to be rebuilt as an overlander. But then on the last day of the third auction attempt a guy contacted me and offered me his BMW F650GS (the 652cc single) as a straight swap. Given that I would have been lucky to get £1500 for the Triumph, and the F650GS seems to sell (2004 model) for £2000 - £2500, I reckon that's a blinding deal from my side of it. The GS has a full BMW service history and factory panniers, and 20k miles in 8 years.

I haven't even seen the bike yet, and it may all fall through, but I think I may have found something close to my 'super XT' - similar size and character, but more power and better for carrying a passenger. I'll post pice here if/when I get it, but I have a few other irons in the fire and I am not letting those go until the GS keys are in my hand.

I plan to run it as my daily rider for the rest of the year. If it doesn't suit, it should be easier to move it on than a sports tourer. Every dealer I spoke to said that the market has dropped out for bigger, faster bikes, and these days everyone wants middleweight dual-purpose bikes.

Fair enough, but my experience of owning more than one single cyl bike is that one of them is the favoured ride and the other(s) are neglected in that they don't get used; this can happen in any circumstances when owning multiple bikes but when there are machines of very similar design and engine capacity available to you then one of them will become the machine of choice.
In this case you will be seduced by the smooth single cylinder F650GS :innocent:

I'm happy to be seduced in any way, shape or form :)

Yes, I am aware of the dilemma of owning two similar bikes. Even with bikes as dissimilar as the XT and the Sprint (and the Bonnie before it, and the Honda before that) I was always neglecting one, and it wasn't the XT.

I have resolved this in my head by planning to take the XT off the road for perhaps 6 months to a year and having the GS as my daily drive. I'll need to clear all the cr@p out of my workshop first, but then I am going to do a nut-and-bolt rebuild of the XT from the frame up. Final plans are yet to be decided, but she will be reborn either as a weatherproof lightweight super-commuter, or a proper overlander with some serious mods. Which I choose will depend on how the GS fits into my riding life.

That's always provided that the deal goes through. I haven't even seen the bike or met the seller yet :)

Hi guys, hope you don't mind me intruding on this thread but I'm in a quandry over what to buy in Oz when I go in December. My background is mainly road bikes.... Yam XJ600, XJ900 Diversion (found that too high for my stumpy legs) and I'm currently riding a Kawasaki VN900 Classic.

I've seen a Kawasaki KLR650 which, having read a bit about them, thought would do me for touring down under. It comes with panniers, top box and tank bag and hits my budget especially with resale at the end of ny trip. My aim is to circumnavigate with the odd diversion down to the likes of Alice Springs thrown in. I thought the KLR would be ideal for both the sealed and dirt roads but I've been told that they are prone to breaking.

I have to make a decision fairly soon but I'd appreciate it if anyone can give me an indication on the pros and cons of the KLR and possibly an idea of an alternative bike. I'll be on my own and travelling light!

Thanks,

John

No problem, although a new thread (with a more specific title) might bring you more repsonses.

I have no experience of the KLR, although I know of people who have done a trip like yours on them without any drama. I can put in a vote for the XT600E being reliable, easy to work on and pretty much bombproof.

Blackdog,
Time to make up your mind yet?
I have:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...709#post390337

:clap:

Result!
 

Yes indeed - it happened today. The deal with the F650GS went through, and it is now sitting on my drive. It's what you suggested, only with one cylinder instead of two.

All I had from the BMW guy was a model number, 2004 date and 20k miles, together with a fuzzy photo. It was a bit of a leap of faith, but in the end the bike was much better than I expected - full BMW service history, full system panniers and topcase, tank bag, immobiliser, ABS ... pretty much what I was looking for, and then some.

When I look back to the 'shopping list' you quote above, it ticks all the boxes. Except, perhaps, fast enough to be fun. I've taken it out once today, in the pouring rain, and the word 'gutless' comes to mind. I'm used to the XT with thumping torque and a breathless top end. This one is the reverse - slow off the mark but runs well up to 60/70 mph or so, and with more to come. I think I will need time to get used to that. But in terms of cold market value, I have come out of this deal well ahead, I think.

So, my first ever BMW. No-one is more surprised than me.

Thanks to everyone who commented and advised. I really appreciate everyone's input.

And Walkabout - good times with the Versys. A mate has one as a 'daily bike' to complement his VFR and he loves it to bits.

I never thought of the 650GS as gutless; I stepped off one to get this Versys. 90 MPH was possible with the GS, one up and with luggage, although by then it really was running out of steam and it was not a comfortable ride - I only touched that speed with the single cyl once or twice, and not for long, on the German autobahns. It could cruise at 80 MPH (indicated) all day.
You will be seduced by the smoothness of the engine and the MPG that it will deliver for you.
I agree, you have a good deal; my 2005 non-ABS, went for £2650, so you can feel good with your deal.

An 80 cruise is all I really need, so that's fine. I think what I have noticed is a lack of punch from a standstill. The XT barks and it's off, making traffic jamming a pleasure. The GS seems a lot more leisurely, as if the throttle cable is made of elastic. Sort of flat. But that's on the basis of a 20-mile ride in the pouring rain, so it's no more than an initial impression. When I get used to slinging it about like I do with the XT, I may change my mind.

I did read something (can't remember where) about the throttle cable having two locations in the twistgrip, one being for a 'restricted power' version. I didn't know there was one ... is this something you have come across? The output certainly feels less than the XT, which from the factory had only 43 (?) bhp and is probably a lot less than that 18 years later. The GS is supposed to have 50 bhp, and I was expecting a bit of an improvement. I'll run it a few weeks before I start making judgements, though. It may just be me.

It does sound a bit like my lawnmower, only quieter, on the standard pipes, though ...

It was 'just me'. 50 miles, sunny afternoon, dry roads - wahey!

Yes, this feels like 50 bhp to the XT's 40-odd. The long-travel throttle was making me think it had less power. It just makes it differently - the XT makes it all at the bottom end and the GS needs to rev. Short-shifting on big throttle openings, which makes the XT fly, does nothing on the GS.

Now very happy.

Now you are getting there!
I used to ride a TTR600 so I recognise what you describe - it had no cush rubbers, by design, and it was an animal compared with the F650GS, but I know which was the better bike.

Yep, the GS thrives on revs, but you can short shift if you like; it is very flexible and you WILL like it when it comes to refuelling.

The sound was fine for me but I always use earplugs having known loads of folks who have lost some amount of hearing capability (not always because of bikes).
My 650GS was restricted from new, and that was done with an insert put in by a BMW dealer which was near to the FI system (I never really looked to see exactly where it was). In theory it restricted the HP, as per UK regulations for new riders, but in fact it just stopped the throttle turning through it's full range. In other words, I don't think it changed the HP output of the engine one jot.
Maybe there is more than one way of "restricting HP" on the F650GS?

It was on the F650.co.uk forum - two holes to locate the throttle cable on the throttle body. Relocate the cable, fit a different cable bracket, and hey presto 33 bhp. From today's ride, I don't think mine's restricted. It's no fireball, but it's got decent performance for a medium-sized single, and a lot smoother than I expected.

I never use earplugs. No point with me - I went to far too many rock concerts in the 70s and my hearing is 50% at best, less in my right ear. Also, I seem to have very narrow ear canals, so any kind of plug (including iPod earbuds) is very uncomfy and they constantly fall out. The GS is extremely quiet, even compared to the XT, which has a legal Micron can but which has a nice thudding tone to it. I suspect a fruity pipe will be on the menu before long. Before or after the comfy seat? We shall see.

Just to round things off, here's a picture of the new arrival. I'm starting to get used to how to ride it. It's not short of power, it just needs a bit of work to find it. Comparing it to the XT on roads I ride often, it's a good bit faster.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tWh4a9dlaL...ke+bmw+030.jpg

Thanks to everyone for their advice and observations.

Just as a way off topic, I tried asking around for a fenda extenda, about 6-7 years ago, for that stubby front fender, and there was not one to be had; Pyramid didn't make one and, at that time, had no intention of doing so (from the mouth of one of their senior reps/owners of the business at the BMF show).

Could all be different nowadays - I learnt to live with it!! The beak extension to the rear of the forks, combined with the aluminium bash plate, do a pretty good job of keeping the crap off the front of the engine.

And better than the XT (on MPG alone), now you are familiar with the 650GS?!!
How are you getting on with the Beemer BlackDZ??

Well ...

+ It's comfier, it's got better fuel economy (70 vs 53 average), it's got a higher cruising speed, brakes are slightly better, looks are growing on me, OEM panniers very useful

- Not much character, my lawnmower sounds more exciting, floppy low-speed handling, riding position too low even with Dakar high seat, sundry electrical issues, ABS means dealer has to bleed brakes (apparently), too much plastic to remove for basic maintenance tasks.

I haven't had anyone on the back yet, so I am reserving judgement on that. It's a good little bike, and it's growing on me, but it doesn't light my fire like the XT does. Perhaps it's a bit too civilised. The jury is still out, but it's doing the job so far. I had a hairy moment a couple of weeks ago when I hit a sea of mud on a fast corner in the dark, and it looked after me. (A colleague who hit the same section of road 10 minutes later wrote her car off against a tree, so the GS got major brownie points for that.)

It's mainly a positive picture, I guess, but I am also slightly underwhelmed. Overall, I like it, but not massively. People tell me that BMWs need time and miles for their qualities to show through, so perhaps I should give it a while.

Nice report therein.
Personally, I didn't have an issue with the "lack of character" in the exhaust note - given plenty of throttle, at speed, the 650 responds well and that was the important thing for me during my riding.
It can be fixed with an after market exhaust if it really niggles and that can also remove the cat converter at the same time.

Yep, I never liked the plastics which are not those of a "true" off road bike; nor the removal of loads of fastenings to get at the battery!
On the other hand, the plastic material is no different to that fitted to many other bikes.

I didn't have to contend with ABS which seems to be desirable for all BMWs nowadays but I have never had a bike with it, so I reserve judgement about such trickery.
That is not a criticism on my part of either Beemer or ABS: we are stuck with it for future manufacturing.
I've read elsewhere about this recommendation for bleeding ABS by (main) dealers but I am not sure where it started i.e. could it be something of a BMW "marketing" thing?? However, it does seem clear that the ABS must be bled properly in order that the system continues to function correctly = with moisture in the system it can corrode internally I believe (needs corroboration on that point).

But, I can identify with your feelings about the GS - two up it performs in a very similar way to use as a single rider, surprisingly to me given the smallish engine size (in western european terms that is).

ps Use an Air Hawk or removable gel pad to raise the seating position - easy to place in position and remove as necessary

I'm considering a better exhaust and dumping the cat, but then the other half of my brain says keep it bog standard and spend the money on refurbishing the XT. There's nothing actually wrong with the BM that needs expensive rectification, just mild personal preference.

The ABS is a bit of an issue. Given the choice, I would always opt to do without it, but it's there and I'll live with it. The problem is that (so I am told) it needs a dealer to plug something into the ABS module to open an internal valve to allow bleeding and even simple fluid replacement. Not being able to bleed the brakes after a bit of maintenance, or flush through some new fluid, is a headache - especially considering that the nearest BMW dealer is 100 miles away. The rear ABS is way too sensitive, and I can feel the rear brake pulsing even with normal 'brisk' riding on dry Tarmac. I haven't activated the front yet, even with heavy braking in the wet, which I suppose is a good thing.

The actual riding position, which was too low for me with the standard seat, has been rectified by buying a Dakar seat. What I meant was that I still feel too low in relation to the ground. Ultimately, I should have got a Dakar with the higher suspension and 21" front wheel. The GS still feels like riding a roller skate. But as I said earlier, the swap for the Sprint was a blinding good deal, and I shouldn't complain. It was this bike or nothing, and I am glad I made the change. There is probably an XT660Z somewhere in my future, though.

Good to hear about the 2-up capability. That will be tested next summer.

Thanks for your input. I appreciate your comments

The F650 is like a lot of BMW's in that it takes some time to acclimatise, and then you will find that you have bought the "best in class". I have had all sorts of motorcycles over the years and this has stood the test of time, winters, offroad, track-days, long tours, motorways, crashes, overloading and anything else you can think of. You have the combination of durability of components, fuel economy, comfort, handling,much lower than average running costs, huge list of accessories and dealer back up that is top class if you want it. Oh, I nearly forgot, faultless reliability that has been unmatched by any other bike that I have ever owned, except maybe for a K100, but that wont match it anywhere else in versatility and daily use.

Thanks for the thoughts, Thom, and I am sure you are right. I am going to commute it through this winter, and if we are still friends at the end, I will know. I've got a lot of little niggly problems to sort out over the next few days, mainly electrical, but then we are good to go. I am also planning on taking my daughter to Europe on it next summer, and that will be the ultimate test.

One thing I have found, BMW owners are certainly loyal.

BDZ,
I am not quite as "loyal" as Thom in that I don't have loyalty to any particular brand; but, and we have talked on these lines previously, the F650GS is a very good bike when measured objectively (and not with all the BS and emotion that others can bring to the discussion).
That's just my opinion of course but based a few years of ownership.
Sure, it has a small number of weaknesses - but those weaknesses are well known (not least, because the model of bike has put in a load of miles in the hands of 1000s of owners) and can be dealt with.
Tell me of a bike that does not have such characteristics. Or any vehicle for that matter.

Anyway, I read the other thread about vibrations for the XT/Dommie and I saw that the GS gets mentioned now and again - I stayed off there because it seemed to be going too far :offtopic: to bring up the GS "smooth ride", too often anyway.

So, what I would say is that the longest distance I rode on the F650GS was 560 miles in about a 10 hour day with a good sprinkling of refuel/smoke breaks, on the motorways in the main - there were no issues with the bike and I survived the day to ride on, thereafter, in the Alps. That was one up with luggage. Enjoy your tour next year with your daughter. :thumbup1:

Hmmm. That didn't last long :)

The little GS is a fine bike in many ways - economical, good performance for its size, some very good design features - but I wasn't gelling with it. Plenty of like, but no lurve, if you know what I mean. Anyway, I mentioned on another forum that I might be considering moving it on in due course, another forum member said he wanted to buy one, and a deal was done. Tonight he rode off into the dark with it.

On Saturday, I pick up an 06 XT660R. I have had one of these before, and I know the riding position and general driveability suit me fine. It's going to be less passenger-friendly, but that's a compromise I will have to make. It ticks all the other boxes.

Onwards and upwards ...

(I've just re-read the whole of this thread. There is some very good, intelligent discussion on this board, and I thank you all for your inputs.)

There's the rub, literally perhaps; it's the pillion who has to make most of the compromise.


Still, you are sticking with fuel injection and a good, reliable, relatively modern engine design, so all is not lost. :innocent:

As a point, the Aprilia Pegaso has had both the rotax and the Yam 660 engine fitted to it during the production run - I have no idea which is the better of those two bikes!

My passenger has to endure the pillion seat for a week or so, I have to put up with the whole package for the rest of the year. That was my thinking, anyway :) Anyway, on the last trip she said she wanted to ride less and see more, so that's a fine excuse for a stop-and-stretch every hour or so.

And here she is!

http://i1053.photobucket.com/albums/...ps736bd8e8.jpg

XTR
 

.. And all the very best with it. Looks great. Thoroughly enjoyed the process of this entire post.
Moss

Thanks! Yes, the thread has been fun and very useful.

Thanks to all who contributed.

I'm with Bluebus on this one - V Strom DL650 or DL1000 seem to tick ALL your boxes. :thumbup1:

I have heard nothing but good things about the Suzuki VStrom range of bikes (all models and marks). Apparently, the DL650 is considered a better buy (but not necessarily a better bike), than it's more powerful sister the DL1000?

Most of you will probably know I'm a confirmed XT fan with a love of single cylinder bikes especially the Yamaha XT series of bikes, but these do NOT perform well at high speed and against a head wind. :(

I'd say an XT600 is happy to cruise all day at no more than 60 MPH but hey are most happy plodding along at 50MPH.

Another bike I would give serious consideration to is the twin cylinder Honda Transalp - XL600V, XL650V, and XL700V. :thumbup1:

I think any single cylinder will struggle to tick ALL your boxes including the love of my life - the XT600.