This does belong here as it will form the basis of my and hopefully others decision of where to start looking for the right bike.
The eternal "which bike" question is always going to be a favourite debate but I personally need to move it back a stage i.e.. what amount of off road (or diabolical road) do you encounter when looping the world and yes I already know you can stick to tarmac or go full mudfest but what do people generally wish they'd set off on after they've got back (it does always seem to be lighter/smaller).
I've read and fully grasped the "less is more" theory and "no one ever wished they had a heavier bike" so that mantra DOESN'T need repeating but if you get your 690 all tricked up to then spend 90% of the time wearing out soft knobbies on rough roads that a weestrom could cope with then that doesn't sound like fun either.
So my question is on a typical RTW trip where you plan route not road, what percentage is going to be 1/paved road 2/dirt road 3/rutted tracks.


My thinking so far is...

BMW X Challenge. However, I have to buy/import from Germany then spend a fortune on suspension and fuel tanks so although best result on paper, it's too much prep and expense

BMW Sertao. However, small tank and weighty bike which may have can bus apollo 13 electrical system

DR650. However, I need to go shopping all the way to Australia for that one

XTZ Teneré. However, much as i like these I keep reading of under power/over weight too tall etc.

KTM 690. However, if the road is smooth then you have all the discomfort of a dirt bike on tarmac and the price..!!

CCM 450. However, totally unknown quantity with race engine innards so maybe unreliable (although I hope they get this bike sorted for being brave enough to think outside the new default 220+kg adventure box)

I am a fifty something 185lb/85kg/13.5 st. who is probably searching for the two wheeled holy grail

Edit:
I have discounted the juggernaut 1200s straight away as I found even my F800 too much of a handful on dirt tracks and equally I can't realistically see a 250 or the new C90 craze suiting me.

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Al,
Looks to me like you've got things well in hand.
You've thought it out, done your homework. The ON Road-OFF Road conundrum is hard to generalize about and is really up to individual rider and their likes/dislikes.

I grew up on dirt bikes, so am fairly comfortable off road. But even I am terrified taking a heavy beast into nasty conditions. Been there ... it's no fun.

If you haven't done much off road ... I can tell you one thing ... ITS FUN!!! and once you get better at it (not hard really) it's totally 100% addicting! But doing it on a reasonably light bike is essential, IMO. I agree, the 650 range is about right.

You're on the right track with "Light Is Right". I'm a DR650 guy but have been through all sorts of bikes from 125's, 250's, 1000's. The 650cc range works for me for travel. It's a compromise but does the most things ... the best ... for me! The DR650 is one of the lightest 650's and is just SO STONE RELIABLE, it's to hard to believe. With a few good mods it's an awesome travel bike.

If you can start your trip in USA then you can find very inexpensive DR650's, many already fitted with nice aftermarket items. Many do this, I've got two HUBB guys coming here now to buy bikes and head South into S. America.
A few examples after 3 minute search:

Suzuki DR650
The above, bit pricey, but already fitted with SEAT (a must), big Acerbis tank (a must) and racks ... and more. (that's over $1200 usd in extras)
2007 Suzuki DR650
2004 DR650SE
DR650
above is low price for low mile example, but few extras
2,600 Miles! 2007 Suzuki DR650SE

I found the above DR650's all in San Francisco Bay area in 3 minutes Craig's list search. These bikes come and go quickly. Lots around here, in L.A. and in Arizona too. NOW is a good time to buy. Prices are a bit high but lots of choices of the best bikes. Remember, our riding season is YEAR ROUND.

Good luck!

I'm not a great fan of off road. I'll do it if I have to and I've done enough to know that I can cope with most conditions but it's not something I'll seek out unless it's the only way to get to where I want to go. I don't enjoy it as much as endure it. Good luck to those who do enjoy it and if they form some kind of higher level of overlanding life, well, that's the way it is.

That approach to things has played a big part in the bikes I've chosen to ride over the years. If most of my mileage is going to be tarmac then a small dirt orientated bike isn't going to be a sensible choice. However, for me, the difficulties of a big road bike on dirt are greater than a small dirt bike on road. I'm likely to injure myself when the former goes wrong as opposed to just geting bored with the latter. Safety is the number one priority on a long trip. Touch wood, other than bruises, sprains and a few cuts I've never had a serious injury in 40+yrs of bike trips.

One of the things I've noticed is that bikes have got bigger in that time - a lot bigger. I used to think stuff like Ted Simon's Triumph was massively overweight for going off tarmac but by current stds something like that with decent suspension would look custom made for the job (reliability to one side). I ought to post up a picture of the large (for the time) road bike I toured (and went off road on) in 1974 next to either of the two 600 single trail bikes I'm using in 2014. The older bike looks like a toy next to the other two yet they are the ones with off road pretentions. They only look svelte and dirt ready compared to the even more overpowered and overweight (touring) road bikes that litter the showrooms these days.

So, which one from your list? I've only ridden a couple of them but to my eye they're all too big and too heavy and become even more so when loaded up with the boxes and bags that form an overlanders life. Fine for tarmac use but a struggle and possibly dangerous struggle in the dirt (unless you're a lot more skillful than me - not very hard I admit). The CCM may be a possible exception but as you say that's yet to prove itself. Something like a low tech version of the CCM with less suspension travel - if I'm only doing the occasional bit of off road I don't need a foot of travel. I'll happily take a lower seat height in place of some of it. If you're over 6' that bit might not apply.

There's more to a long trip than the bike and for me something that faded into the background after a week or so would be perfect. I don't think it's a coincidence that bikes like the DRZ400 have been used for many long trips with substantial amounts of off road but of course they're rapidly becoming history now with nothing really taking their place.

Maybe include the WR250R in your search if you're concerned about riding sandy stretches and other off road fun. Like Molly said. It is fun and addictive. Hard to find in some places of the world so when you encounter it on your trip and didn't bring the right tool you might feel robbed by your own decisions.

It handles as good on the road as my BMW Dakar did and smoother too. Might have to down shift on the climbs.
No comparison on the dirt. Just plain fun.

I needed a lot of convincing to go to a 2dirty but glad I looked at it.

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G'day Alan,

It's been my experience that the on/off road question becomes harder that older you are. I'm 55 now and I wish that I had learned to ride on dirt when I was much younger. The reality of the consequences and no fear attitude of youth helps.

My first trip was Singapore to UK and for that I used the 1200. No regrets and the route was 95% tarmac. No problems.

The second was from TDF to Alaska and I'd say 80% tarmac with Routa 40 Copper Canyon and the Dalton Highway being the "off road" parts, again with the 1200 and no regrets.

This year was UK to Magadan through Mongolia and the ROB. This year I used the 660 Tenere and for me it was too tall (if you are 6ft tall you will have no problem) but not under powered. The route was about 60% tarmac 40% dirt this time.

I have always found the the extra power and nice suspension to be a bonus when you are on the tarmac, and depending where you feel comfortable going that will be probably most of the time unless you are one of the die hard "off roaders" that like you write about how daring and hard the adventures can get. I've now found my limits and don't mind admitting it.

Like moloydog says you've done the hard part, you know the bikes and their limitations. There is no perfect bike. Now you have to work out where you want to go and the route you want to take, then buy the bike or bikes??

Chris

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Cheers Mollydog
I'm looking for a cheap trials bike to do some off road/balance learning and I had intended on starting my "adventure" travelling by going into Africa but a trip to the states then down is on the cards also as I long to see South America. If the DR wins the mind race then that option is definitely a possibility I hadn't considered.

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Cheers, I would expect to (and enjoy) a proportion of off road riding as long as it's not boulder strewn river beds and fallen trees but I guess you sometimes end up in situations beyond your control, especially in mountains there is no alternative route but I too am concerned about an 'off' and a broken collar bone spoiling the fun (if not worse) For that reason the 450 to 650 bracket suits me.
I also agree about bikes growing faster than my waistband.
I recall the monstrously big and powerful XT500 when it was launched. Who would want an off road/road bike THAT big I thought!?
Then last week I read with a smile of disbelief about the 1300cc 180HP "adventure bike" that KTM announced. Who said the Austrians don't have a sense of humour!!

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Cheap
Simple
Reliable
Easy to maintain

For me, they are what you need in a long distance, cross continental , 3rd world travel bike.

You can't have it all. You will have to compromise somewhere.

XT600E
NX650 Dominator
DR650SE (You see them in the UK now and again)
XR650L (Bit tall though)
XT660R (Shorter and cheaper version of Tenere)

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Did some trips.
Rode some bikes.
Fix them for a living.
Can't say anymore.

I appreciate and agree with what you say but for me I imagine I would be frustrated with the lack of torque that a 250 has and would find the pace frustrating. I could be wrong however as I am still thinking Euro touring...?

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Yep, agree with all you say especially the compromise that's why I was asking what percentage of a RTW trip ends up as "off road" (or soft dirt type roads)
It seems that most folk with regrets would have chosen a slower lighter bike but they tend to be the later 1000cc+ guys

Back to the bikes you suggest. I would be looking for something newer with only one or two owners and is the XT'R much lighter than the Ten? as the latter appears to comes off the shelf ready to go

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You know what? It does depend on your frame of reference and expectation. In Australia I ride a lot of double (4wd) and single trail so everything feels zippier because of the close proximity of things. I don't get it over 100kph on that much. So I have a different frame of reference from the euro situation (grew up in Holland) where everything is wide open and dirt is non existing. So when I was suggested a 250 I wasn't sure neither. I read reviews about people testing this one when it first came onto the scene and was surprised about them. It's no ordinary 2fitty. So when I took the jump from a 650 Dakar, modified to a wet weight of 180kg and test rode it I was blown away.

Those engineers are amazing. It's a cylinder from an R1 with bit and pieces borrowed from other bikes R&D.

It's not for 4 lane motorway obviously. You're you exposed for that. So getting out of Europe you'll probably think WTF. Wrong bike. But on the dirt and even on country roads it's a lot of fun. Smoother at 120kph than the BM Dakar and it's happy to do it and a little more. Blew my DRZ-E out of the water which Ted took on one of his trips which i was planning to do well. Got rid of both bigger bikes. The gearing is better for road compared to the Suzi so you won't notice the power difference. The Suzuki has a good power to weight ratio for RTW but the gearing let's it down. Technology moved on too.

With the WRR You'll just have to down shift at HWY speeds when the road start to climb. To me this gives a sporty ride rather than a cruisy ride.

I'd suggest take it for a test ride with an open mind and possibly back to back with something bigger and imagine the unpredictable gravel or potholed roads.

Go lightweight in luggage and let the opportunities come to you. It's a great feeling standing at an intersection and not having to debate if it's a good idea.

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http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329337

You can read about the Yamaha WR250R on above thread on ADV Rider.
Few talk about it here except TMotten. 40K posts there, lots of info. I've read most of it ... but lost interest in the bike ....

Did a short 20 minute test ride, ON and OFF road. Impressive.
Not sure the WR is the "perfect" RTW travel bike for everyone, but it's damn GOOD ... both ON and OFF road. But, I've read of surprising reliability issues in above ADV thread. Unusual for Yamaha. But mostly all good reports.

One would have to pack really light on ANY 250. I owned a WR250F (race bike) until recently, owned several 250's in the past. My Fav was former XR250R. Amazing bike, didn't travel RTW on it but did some long-ish rides.

No doubt, once off road in bad conditions a 250 would be a holiday compared to even a well set up 650. Much easier riding.

But realistically, how much true off road nasties will you go looking for? Most travelers take a "road" somewhere, not a trail. A well set up 650 can handle most roads. Mud and Sand? Advantage 250.

The WR-R is a tiny bike, fit me perfect (at 5'7"). The owner I borrowed it from is 6'2", he looked funny on the thing ... "Like A Monkey Humping A Football"

And what will happen to it's "light, nimble handling" once loaded up for RTW riding? My guess is it will go to Hell unless very carefully modified. (suspension? stabilizer? braced sub frame?)

250 class bikes (WR-R may be the BEST out there) have advantages beyond riding off road:

Positives:
1. Great fuel economy/Range (bigger tank needed on WR-R)
2. Great in congested cities, filtering, curb jumping, riding down sidewalk, easy parking and getting into Hostels/Hotels.
3. Relatively easy maintenance, long intervals. 250's have LONG service life on Chains, Sprockets, Tires. (This is BIG for a traveler IMO )
4. Easy and FUN to ride off road. Easy(er) to pick up.

Negatives:
1. May feel "strained" at speeds over 60 mph, weak in mountains. Lack of power/torque riding over 2000 meters. (In S. America, riders often go to 4K meters, stay there ALL DAY) All bikes lose power up high, a 250 is badly affected by this.
2. Limited load carrying ability, possible broken sub frame or frame if overloaded or if luggage packed improperly and ridden HARD off road.
3. Very small bike, not Large Rider friendly, less leg room, narrow seat, suspension would need upgrading for heavy rider with gear.
4. Not 100% bullet proof over long distance (WR250R). Quite a few negative reports on BIG ADV Rider WR-R thread. But about 80% of posts there are cheer leaders for the WR-R. (as expected)
5. F.I.: Blessing and Curse. Blessing: GREAT fuel economy, performance and ability to compensate at altitude, Curse because F.I. is very battery dependent and if even ONE component fails or is corroded ... you are DONE. (NOTE: this is very unlikely as most modern elec. components will never fail)

Curse because F.I. also depends on reliability of a high pressure fuel pump. Bad fuel/dirty/watered fuel can sometimes DESTROY the fuel pump. (filtering fuel would solve most of these woes)

As suggested, ride a few bikes, see which ones speak to you. Be sure to imagine that bike with 30 kgs. of luggage/extras strapped onto it.


250's Rock! Baja, XR250R

Great summary. Agree on all points but not sure on the issues. I know they've changed the fuel pump. New one seems to last longer. Lots of info on changing it. I'd bring a spare pump only and relocate it in the pump housing. It's pretty small.

I certainly prefer FI but there are plenty debates about that. Did a trip with 2 supposedly unreliable Dakar including at high altitude 5000m+ and no problems. It's best to filter your fuel though. But that's easy and is do that with carbs too.

Definitely go lightweight. More so the lighter the bike is. But that's a good thing. 45l plus a tank bag should do it just fine. No need for 80l of gear. Jap bikes are great with needing few tools. The subframe is steel so no worries on that.

I'm six feet and just added bar risers and am mega comfy. Seat is decent compared to my DRZ one even after modification.

Haven't noticed much power reduction here in Calgary yet. It's only at 1000m so not that high. I'm sure I'll find out soon. Most of my trips haven't seen high altitudes though. Bolivia took the crown at 5000m and the 650 struggled at speeds and grades.

I'm not trying to push it but thought I'd widen your range. I wouldn't want to take the DRZ and can't think of many other mid sized ones beyond it. Plenty of 650 options. They're only getting heavier though. 200kg+ luggage is crazy heavy on anything other than a well graded road (paved with asphalt or gravel, it's still road).

But if you target some remote dirt sections (Mongolia or Africa ) I'd look more for a tool for that job. This 2fitty is often overlooked because of the number. It's no ordinary 2fitty.

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Typical WR250R set up for travel. Borrowed from WR250R thread. This guy still needs a "real" seat to get far ... but the bike looks fairly balanced to my eye.
SO MUCH info on that thread.

Depends how soft your tush is Molly. ;-)

Here is some more WRR porn.

http://touch.cycleworld.com/all/130687#1



I'm (slowly) working on a bag with better geometric mass distribution to get it lower and further. Water and slash proof of course.

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