Going tubed or tubeless?

[kei]

Hi there!

Can anyone tell me the advantages/disadvantages for having tubed/tubeless tires for a RTW journey?

Tubeless tires seem to be safer and easier to repair in case of puncture. But I wonder if tubed tires are more common in developing countries so it's easier to look for replacements.

I don't intend to do extreme off-road but I do expect some unpaved roads or trails.

Many thanks.

Cheers,
Kei

[juanvaldez650]

No so much tube versus tubeless but spoked versus unspoked. Spoked wheels are better for bad road/off road and most require tube tire.

[Threewheelbonnie]

The key factor IMHO is the person and the tyres not the basic technology. Some tube rims and tyres (moto Guzzi) were so tight we struggled with a shop bead breaker. OEM unlubed Bridgestones on the Bonneville were close to impossible while lubed and hand fitted Hidenaus could be re-tubed with one 4-inch lever in five minutes.

Likewise I've seen mushroom plugs fail to hold because the fitter was clueless and a silly string repair that lasted the life of the tyre.

Choose your weapon how you like (i like tubeless) but practice with it.

Andy

[PaulNomad]

I just changed my Heidenaus after they did 20,000kms through Mexico and Cuba on an R1200GSA and no flats. They still had life in them but had the opportunity to change them at a good price in Guatemala. I've done 50,000kms on this brand now with no flats. No need to carry other tyres, only carry plugs and a compressor.

Thumbs up for tubeless, particularly this brand.

PN

[mollydog]

Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie

The key factor IMHO is the person and the tyres not the basic technology. Some tube rims and tyres (moto Guzzi) were so tight we struggled with a shop bead breaker. OEM unlubed Bridgestones on the Bonneville were close to impossible while lubed and hand fitted Hidenaus could be re-tubed with one 4-inch lever in five minutes.

Likewise I've seen mushroom plugs fail to hold because the fitter was clueless and a silly string repair that lasted the life of the tyre.

Choose your weapon how you like (i like tubeless) but practice with it.

Andy

All good points. Wheels and tires vary ... and unless you know the proper technique installing a Plug, then they can leak or Pop out. (rare)

I wonder what bike you have? And I wonder what tires you intend to run?
If doing lots of OFF ROAD ... you may be running some sort of knobby?
Sometimes tough to get a Plug into a knobby tire, depending where puncture is.

Also, if going off road, you probably will need to carry a tube or two anyway, even if running tubeless. IE: if you damage side wall ... a tube can allow you to continue. Or ... if your tubeless-type spoked wheel gets damaged and leaks ... a tube can save the day.

But as said, lots depends on WHICH BIKE ... and WHICH tires you want to use.

If doing mostly On Road, my choice would Tubeless tires. But as Andy mentioned,
some tires are very hard to break the bead on. So plan tire changes carefully, make sure you get to a shop with a tire machine when time for new tire. For most flats a simple String plug or Mushroom plug fitted road side will work.
But good technique is important here. Also, carry a small compressor with and plenty of
Rubber Cement and a really GOOD tubeless repair kit.

Good luck.

[twowheels03]

Hi,

We managed 7000 miles of dirt, gravel and crossing a mountain range off road in America and Mexico.....Two bikes and not one puncture. Until we shipped to NZ and found a nail within the first 15Km out of the port. All the dirt was on Knoblies....Pirelli MT21 fronts and Michelin T63 rears x 3 sets, the puncture was in a new 130 Hiedenau scout!! Waiting for our bikes to arrive in Dili after 6000km of tar and graded gravel in OZ (70/30 split favouring tar) - no flats!


I talked to a German guy who stuck to tar sealed roads and he had 4 flats in 6 months.....on one bike!! I guess it's down to luck and how you ride.

Like Mollydog says - It's probably more a case of what wheels you have and if you plan using knoblies. Use knoblies and you really need to carry tubes...so many ways you can damage a tyre off road and plugs have limited applications. What ever you chose, don't rely on the comp air cartridges alone and carry a decent pump - it needs to get that bead back on and if you get a hard to find slow puncture - you could soon use up the cartridges.

It sure is nice not having to remove that rear wheel though.....I wouldn't miss the finger bending job of dealing with the front tube either but as I fit all our tyres and got used to it......think I'd stick with my tubes.

[kei]

Thanks y'all

I think I'm going to have a used 250cc Honda dual sport. It has tubed tires.

The wheel rims are very old and the spokes are rusted. I may change the rims so just want to know whether switching to tubeless is recommended. The toughest part of my plan should be Africa along the east.


Cheers,
Kei

[mollydog]

Unless badly rotted, rusty spokes/nipples/wheels can be cleaned up with work, if mostly surface rust. You'll need to evaluate the whole wheel, or have a pro do it if you're not sure.

Soak in WD40 (or other product), work hard with steel wool. It's labor intensive but works. Do INSIDE of the wheel rim as well, clean up spoke nibbles best you can.

Make sure to replace rubber rim strip on top of spoke nipples inside wheel .. (or use duct tape). Protects tube from spoke nipples sharp edges.

Yes, you can convert wheels to typeless-type by sealing spoke nipples with strong Marine type epoxy sealer. Usually this is done by Pro wheel specialist. Bit tricky to do correctly. (I tried it ... couldn't manage it. )

On a 250 Honda I would NOT recommend this. Not worth it, IMO.
First, it's an expensive process if you pay a pro. Second, it's not always reliable (leaks can happen) especially the front.
Woody's Wheel Works (USA) will NOT convert a front wheel ... too dangerous.

A front tube change is pretty EASY, no need to seal it. Run HD tubes, possibly run Slime or similar flat protection Goo. But Slime makes patching hard ... unless it's a Vulcanized patch (at tire repair shop) which sets tube on fire, melts patch onto tube. Permanent!

The fact is, older 250 Honda tire changes should be fast & easy. Good tire irons/tools is all you need, PRACTICE at home before Africa.

Carry at least 3 spare tubes, get them patched professionally if and when you can. (vulcanized patch is best) Sometimes a tube will be destroyed (this is why you need spares) ... so look after tubes. Learn to do proper patches when shops are not around. Quality tubes can be patched many times and still be usable.

If going off road in East Africa, good strong knobby tires probably best. Thick, stiff side walls are best with a tough carcass.

A few examples:
T63, IRC TR-8, MT21, Pirelli Rally, Dunlop D606 (many other options). About any knobby will fit if it's an 18" rear wheel?? A 17" ? more limited choices. Any 21"front will work. Carrying a spare rear tire is probably a good idea too. Front tire should last and last. Tarmac riding at high speed wears rear knobby fast.

[Threewheelbonnie]

Trail bike knobblies are designed to be changed with levers. Any decent threesome of tyre, rim and bike manufacturer knows part of the basic requirement is to fix punctures on the trail or track side. Practice and carry tubes.

Road bikes don't seem to be specced with the same care. Worst example is the BMW singles, tubeless tyres, sealed bead type rim, tube and open spokes. Can't be plugged, can't be removed with levers. You either carry some expensive fold up bead breaker or hope slime works. A pure job creation scheme for the dealer network.

Andy

[kei]

Thanks for all of your advice.

Though seems a bit straying off the "which bike" topic, the matter of tube vs tubeless has a little to do with the choice of bike.

Not every member of the 250cc dual sport family uses tube-tires, e.g. both Honda SL230 & Yamaha XT250 (2005 & onwards) have a tube-type front and a tubeless rear.

I prefer these 2 bikes because of their low seat height. But after knowing the above advantages of having tubes, should I change the rear rims to tube-type?
Or can a tube-tire be simply fitted on a tubeless rim?


Thanks,
Kei

[mark manley]

You can quite happily use tubes with tubeless rims, I have done this on my GS in the past when I had a puncture.

[kei]

Originally Posted by mark manley

You can quite happily use tubes with tubeless rims, I have done this on my GS in the past when I had a puncture.

Thanks Mark.

Yes, my local mechanic also told me it's ok to use tubes with tubeless rims.
But when reading the owner's manual there are scary statements of warning like "Do not install tube-type tires on tubeless rims. The beads may not seat and the tires could slip on the rims" & "Do not install a tube inside a tubeless tire. Excessive heat build-up may cause the tube to burst".

I just wonder if these statements are merely written for legal considerations, or there is a real, potential threat associated?

[DaveGetsLost]

I currently 1 motorcycle with tubeless rims and 3 motorcycles with spoked wheels and tube-type rims.

When shopping for tires I usuall find tubeless tires or ones marked "tube/tubeless". When using them with a tube I've been told to downgrade the speed rating 1 notch -- a V rated tire becomes an H rated tire. Since that's about 200kmh they're obviously rated for an audience other than me. It would matter if I found J, K, L, or M -rated tires (under 100mph) but those aren't common here. YMMV. Some people know how fast their motorcycles can go -- I don't (except for the CB360 which falls below the category of "fast").

When I do find a tube-type tire, usually one of the "vintage" tread designs in "inch" sizing, the tire does not slip on the rim. That may be because the tube is pushing the tire bead against the rim, but that would only be because the air pressure is pressing the tube agains the bead. Air pressure (and friction) do the work.

You probably DON'T want to install a tube-type tire without a tube on any rim. The beads of tubeless tires must be smooth to seal all the way around. The bead of a tube-type tire can have a ripple that would let air out since the tube will keep the air in.

[mark manley]

Originally Posted by kei

"Do not install a tube inside a tubeless tire. Excessive heat build-up may cause the tube to burst".

I just wonder if these statements are merely written for legal considerations, or there is a real, potential threat associated?

I suspect they are, a friend of mine who is also on here somewhere has done 275,000 miles on his GS with tubes fitted to tubeless rims without a problem.