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  #1  
Old 14 Jun 2013
rockwallaby's Avatar
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Web site and forum niggles and suggestions

I would like to suggest some improvement this forum web site and in particular to how new posts are made.

I shall describe what I don't like about it first.
The small window that pops up in which we type our post is painfully small and does not expand.
The un-advanced edit gives more space and a better appearance than the when you use the advanced edit.
At least it is not as cluttered and those hideous simlies are hidden.

The toolbar above the editing box, again has tiny little icons for the various functions which must be a right pain for people using touch based screens or who are not so adapted to using a mouse well. The icons really are not clear enough, and so appear fuzzy, like old style web sites did of years ago.

All those 'smilies' down the right hand side, they take so much room and are in the wrong place.

All in all, it reminds me of how I remember Microsoft windows style when I last used it years ago, for me it is yukky and clunky.

Firstly, look at how other forums do it, picking up ideas from them and seeing how you can apply those good ideas to make this forum better.

Look to making at start to implement better coding and layout by moving to HTML5 and associated CSS3 standards. You don't need to do it a one big change, but make a start.

Think about people with disabilities, people who are not able to use a mouse or don't understand the various icons.

Put the 'smilies' down along the bottom of the editing box area. Make them smaller so that they don't expand out the lines as they are too tall.
Damn, this box I type in is a pain, did I mention that already? I can't even see the top of my post now and I can't expand this blasted little box.

For the main forum viewing section, make the main content div have flexible width, rather than being stuck at ~1060 pixels wide. Allow people with wide screens to then see more. Allow people with smaller screens to at least see the content without needing to scroll right.

Why was effort put into making certain text brown, when that time would have been better spent on rectifying existing issues and making this forum more useable.

Why is it that the problem that has already been noticed and posted not be addressed, where folks on devices with screen resolutions of less than 1024 pixel wide are going to have trouble posting and reading, where the there is a problem in the basic design of the top level divs including the main content div and the right had sidebar div are not set up correctly. The left hand side gutter reduces and then expands to reduce again.
It's not how a web site should be, and only furthers frustrations for the many people on many different device platforms and web browsers.

I like HU for what it provides, a great community, and can say I have noticed some little changes of improvements along the years. But the section we post in, well, need I say more.

Last things, the avatars are, can I say, dare I say, crap, they are awful and limiting. I don't know of any up to date and busy forum that locks its users into using predefined avatar pictures and not their own. Please think about how this impacts on the users. You want everyone to be able to express themselves right, then allow them to have their avatar of choice. I see many with the same awful avatar picture and then I relate what I see in that picture to how that person really is, when in fact the two are not related. For example, I think of user sparco as a small balding weird and shady character, which hopefully he is not. I can assure you it does have this effect on people.

Presently you have a banner at the top of each page as follows;

Quote:
We've had a code update on the HUBB that should fix any issues with the new right hand column. If the HUBB still "looks funny" please force a refresh to get the latest code update. (Hold down the shift OR ctrl key, and click the refresh button on your browser, OR Ctrl R, OR on Macs, Command R). If you still have a problem please post it here.
Can I ask you to correct the bit where you say 'Hold down the shift OR ctrl key, and click the refesh button' to the following, 'Click the refresh icon in your browser or alternatively from a the keyboard by holding down Ctrl and then the R key'

As far as I'm aware, you do not hold the Ctrl and click the refresh icon, it does nothing more than just clicking the refresh icon. Secondly, suggesting Shift + R may do other unwanted things in other browsers other than Chrome. Ctlr + R or the F5 key is mostly used across all browsers, so best to suggest this rather than confusing the user.

More importantly, Ctrl + F5 will reload the current page and will override any stored cache content, meaning it will renew the page in its entirety, which is really all you need mention.

Grant, I hope you can understand all that I say above and that it is with best intentions, but that you may also understand my frustrations.

Why not asks us, your members what they wish for that might improve this web site and forum, we have a section for it here, but I didn't notice much happening here at all.

Would you be willing to let us know what your thoughts are and maybe give us some insight into anticipated changes for the website in terms of its design.

Kindly,
Paul
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Last edited by rockwallaby; 14 Jun 2013 at 17:13.
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  #2  
Old 14 Jun 2013
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I have to disagree with most of what you say. The site was pretty dated a couple of years ago, but received a big revap and is now fine, imho. Since the search function has been fixed, I have no complaints whatsoever.

I spend too much time on the 'net on sites like advrider.com, xrv.org.uk, adventurebikerider.com and rideasia.net to name a few. They all have their quirks, but the hubb's usability and functionality is comparable to the "competition" i.e. good. In terms of content, there's no comparison.

Custom avatars (like I have...) are available if you're a member, I believe.
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  #3  
Old 15 Jun 2013
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I have just noticed that the translate option provided by a Microsoft service that sat in the very top right had corner had been removed, yay, that is good. I was going to mention that as well as you already have Google translate, and I would expect one is enough.

The less unnecessary stuff, the better, less javascript to call and to load, the better.
This is especially more so for people with small laptops, netbooks and smartypantsphones that often have limited resources for web browsing.

Great, now we need to look at the layout to see that it works smoothly with reducing screen resolution.
Do you have a TODO list that you are willing to share?

chris, it might be more helpful if you state what you do agree on more specifically rather than a blanket of mostly not. It is true that the site had an upgrade some tine ago now, but that does not take away the fact of the issues I detailed exist and remain, would you not agree?
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Last edited by rockwallaby; 15 Jun 2013 at 11:41.
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  #4  
Old 15 Jun 2013
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Quote:
The small window that pops up in which we type our post is painfully small and does not expand...

...Damn, this box I type in is a pain, did I mention that already? I can't even see the top of my post now and I can't expand this blasted little box.
There's a couple of diagonal bars in the bottom right of the post entry window, drag this downwards and/or sideways to enlarge the box.
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  #5  
Old 15 Jun 2013
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Tim wrote:
Quote:
There's a couple of diagonal bars in the bottom right of the post entry window, drag this downwards and/or sideways to enlarge the box.
Well that is interesting. As soon as you mentioned that Tim, I thought right away to try other browsers.

On my Mac under OSX FireFox 21.0 does not show these text field handles.
Neither does FireFox 21.0 on my DELL D830 running Ubuntu 13.04, all fully up to date.

So, I thought, try Safari 5.1.9 on Mac OSX, yes it shows the handles, great.
Next, I tried Google Chrome 27.0. on OSX, yes it shows the handles, great.

Guess what, I have always use FireFox as my general web browser, and had not thought that this problem would come down to type of browser, except of course for that one particular one that shall remain unnamed, and which I know is causing no end of grief for the web in general.

Ok, so the code is there for the box to be expanded.
Thank you Tim for letting me know that you see them.
I wonder what browser on what OS you use?

Oddly, I've not come across this situation of not being able to expand the text field box with other forums I frequent using FireFox.

Which leads me to thinking that we have a problem with the forum software in that it is probably using non-conforming code, as I would understand that Mozilla FireFox has a significant share in the browser market.

So, I may need to use one of these other browsers to make posts to the HUB forum, mmmmmmm.
_____
Paul

Edit: I have just tried Google Chrome, latest version on Ubuntu 13.04 and it to shows the handles. But not FireFox.
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  #6  
Old 16 Jun 2013
Grant Johnson's Avatar
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Smile

Wow that's a lot of feedback, thanks!

I'll do my best to respond below...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post
I would like to suggest some improvement this forum web site and in particular to how new posts are made.

I shall describe what I don't like about it first.
The small window that pops up in which we type our post is painfully small and does not expand.
The un-advanced edit gives more space and a better appearance than the when you use the advanced edit.
At least it is not as cluttered and those hideous simlies are hidden.


"pops up" - huh? There is no pop-up. If you click reply, you get a new page with a message: box, which is sizable. Top right of the grey box is up and down arrows for sizing, and beside that a/A for bb code view or wysiwig.

If you go the Quick reply route, same thing.

Smilies... find me better...please...


Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post
The toolbar above the editing box, again has tiny little icons for the various functions which must be a right pain for people using touch based screens or who are not so adapted to using a mouse well. The icons really are not clear enough, and so appear fuzzy, like old style web sites did of years ago.

All those 'smilies' down the right hand side, they take so much room and are in the wrong place.

All in all, it reminds me of how I remember Microsoft windows style when I last used it years ago, for me it is yukky and clunky.

Firstly, look at how other forums do it, picking up ideas from them and seeing how you can apply those good ideas to make this forum better.
Icons: that's default vBulletin 3.x. We and a whole lot of other forums are stuck with exactly the same ones, and btw - they aren't fuzzy, they're very sharp. Something wrong at your end.

Smilies - again, default, no option.

And probably like old MS programs cause that's just about how old vB is!

Without changing software, not possible to change any of that stuff. We've made a huge investment in upgrading the rest of the site, and we had wanted to upgrade from vB 3 as well, but after a long look a the alternatives, and the issues involved in switching, and integrating with the rest of the site and a whole host of issues we are leavign it alone for the near future. It will be AT LEAST 3 probably 4 years before it make sense to move on. FWIW - there's a lot of other sites the same, e.g. Advrider is on an older version than we are.

One reason is that upgrading is hard, what we have is rock solid, and our traffic load is high, and many alternatives don't scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

Look to making at start to implement better coding and layout by moving to HTML5 and associated CSS3 standards. You don't need to do it a one big change, but make a start.

Think about people with disabilities, people who are not able to use a mouse or don't understand the various icons.
Believe me we'd love to. A start - doesn't work - code is throughout the site, it's all based on templates and reusable bits. Either all or nothing with html versions. We are currently XHTML 1 transitional, perfectly valid code. Where possible we use the latest standards, but we have to remember that 3% of our users are on IE6, and more on other weird and crappy browsers, so too advanced and the site is unusable for them.

Disabilities - love to, but the harsh realities is that if they can't understand an icon, or use a mouse, odds are they're not going travelling on a motorcycle or even a 4wd. If we had the budget, time and energy, we'd do it anyway, but it's just not there. "Accessibility" is shockingly expensive. We DO keep it in mind at all times, believe me!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

Put the 'smilies' down along the bottom of the editing box area. Make them smaller so that they don't expand out the lines as they are too tall.
Damn, this box I type in is a pain, did I mention that already? I can't even see the top of my post now and I can't expand this blasted little box.
see first or second note above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

For the main forum viewing section, make the main content div have flexible width, rather than being stuck at ~1060 pixels wide. Allow people with wide screens to then see more. Allow people with smaller screens to at least see the content without needing to scroll right.
Too hard. Simple as that. See budget above... Although there are other considerations, for instance newspaper columns are narrow for a reason - readibility. Try reading a line of text that is the fuill width of a 1920 resolution screen - TERRIBLE.

As for scrolling right, we're working on the best way to fix the current issue on the HUBB with width, but we need the right column, See budget above...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

Why was effort put into making certain text brown, when that time would have been better spent on rectifying existing issues and making this forum more useable.
We're trying to make the whole site "the same" for obvious consistency reasons. And it's a 5 minute change, less if I've got my act together! The other stuff, well, see above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

Why is it that the problem that has already been noticed and posted not be addressed, where folks on devices with screen resolutions of less than 1024 pixel wide are going to have trouble posting and reading, where the there is a problem in the basic design of the top level divs including the main content div and the right had sidebar div are not set up correctly. The left hand side gutter reduces and then expands to reduce again.
It's not how a web site should be, and only furthers frustrations for the many people on many different device platforms and web browsers.
The thinking was that small screens scroll right and then they don't have to look a thte right column, and everyone else is supposed to have the page center without issue. Couple of bugs in there, so we're working on it... or at least our Development company is, though they're slow and we're not their biggest client, although the most complicated and difficult by far!

Important note - if you're using the HUBB on a small mobile device, get Tapatalk - it makes it EASY to use. The HUBB and the ret of the site works remarkably well on small screens (we test on Windows 8 phone, Android 2, iphone, Ipad) but Tapatalk is better in some ways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

I like HU for what it provides, a great community, and can say I have noticed some little changes of improvements along the years. But the section we post in, well, need I say more.

Last things, the avatars are, can I say, dare I say, crap, they are awful and limiting. I don't know of any up to date and busy forum that locks its users into using predefined avatar pictures and not their own. Please think about how this impacts on the users. You want everyone to be able to express themselves right, then allow them to have their avatar of choice. I see many with the same awful avatar picture and then I relate what I see in that picture to how that person really is, when in fact the two are not related. For example, I think of user sparco as a small balding weird and shady character, which hopefully he is not. I can assure you it does have this effect on people.
As Chris notes, you can have your own avatar if you're a member. We need to do something to incent people to become Contributing Members so we can pay the bills!

More on it all in the FAQ, and Horizons Unlimited Membership | Horizons Unlimited

Find us more avatars that we can LEGALLY use and we'll add them in! Note that NO ONE has ever asked for more avatars, since 2003! No interest/requests, and I tend to ignore it...


Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

Presently you have a banner at the top of each page as follows;
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post
Can I ask you to correct the bit where you say 'Hold down the shift OR ctrl key, and click the refesh button' to the following, 'Click the refresh icon in your browser or alternatively from a the keyboard by holding down Ctrl and then the R key'

As far as I'm aware, you do not hold the Ctrl and click the refresh icon, it does nothing more than just clicking the refresh icon. Secondly, suggesting Shift + R may do other unwanted things in other browsers other than Chrome. Ctlr + R or the F5 key is mostly used across all browsers, so best to suggest this rather than confusing the user.

More importantly, Ctrl + F5 will reload the current page and will override any stored cache content, meaning it will renew the page in its entirety, which is really all you need mention.
Actually shift refresh button works just fine on all browsers, and I've been doing it that way since Netscape 1 and IE 1.0. Shift-R I do NOT suggest.

All the above work, testing says so. F5 does NOT force a refresh alone, and that's what we're trying to make happen. I force a refresh a few hundred times a day when solving issues and writing new code, in all the major browsers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

Grant, I hope you can understand all that I say above and that it is with best intentions, but that you may also understand my frustrations.

Why not asks us, your members what they wish for that might improve this web site and forum, we have a section for it here, but I didn't notice much happening here at all.


Completely understood, and you seem to have a good understanding of the basics, so appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post
Would you be willing to let us know what your thoughts are and maybe give us some insight into anticipated changes for the website in terms of its design.

Kindly,
Paul


Tha'ts a HUGE subject, though design wise, not much, just small incremental improvements and tweaks as we come to them. There's a whole load of goodies in the works, but more "features" than design changes, that's pretty much done and dusted. Better be, we've spent enough on it. (Although there may be minor changes in the next couple of weeks as we revamp the css to better reflect what we're trying to do, it shouldn't make any visual changes of note.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
I have to disagree with most of what you say. The site was pretty dated a couple of years ago, but received a big revap and is now fine, imho. Since the search function has been fixed, I have no complaints whatsoever.

I spend too much time on the 'net on sites like advrider.com, xrv.org.uk, adventurebikerider.com and rideasia.net to name a few. They all have their quirks, but the hubb's usability and functionality is comparable to the "competition" i.e. good. In terms of content, there's no comparison.

Custom avatars (like I have...) are available if you're a member, I believe.
Thanks for that Chris! And good to know we're at least on par. What we have in addition is a whole lot of ther features and ifnormation such as the Shipping database and much more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post
I have just noticed that the translate option provided by a Microsoft service that sat in the very top right had corner had been removed, yay, that is good. I was going to mention that as well as you already have Google translate, and I would expect one is enough.

The less unnecessary stuff, the better, less javascript to call and to load, the better.
This is especially more so for people with small laptops, netbooks and smartypantsphones that often have limited resources for web browsing.


That was there as a test to see which people used, and it was overwhelmingly google, so MS is gone.

We're big fans of minimalism, but at the same time people want features and pretty and nice icons and drag and drop and easily resizable message boxes and on and on... it all adds code...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post

Great, now we need to look at the layout to see that it works smoothly with reducing screen resolution.
Do you have a TODO list that you are willing to share?

chris, it might be more helpful if you state what you do agree on more specifically rather than a blanket of mostly not. It is true that the site had an upgrade some tine ago now, but that does not take away the fact of the issues I detailed exist and remain, would you not agree?
_____
Paul


ToDO list: there isn't enough room on the website to post it... or at least that's the way it feels at times, and it changes, a lot.

We have posted some of what we plan, but as I say it changes, and we don't like to announce we want to do something, then take 3 years to get it done, but sometimes that's what it takes. Even longer in the case of blogs, and we're still not there!

There aren't enough hours in the day to do what MUST be done, much less new stuff, yet somehow we're getting new stuff done, and the major site revamp, and that was while I was in chemo. So we keep plugging away.

If anyway wants to get deeply involved, we're always looking for assistance from Drupal developers, and coders in general, designers too.

I'll also have a look at posting a basic list of future plans that may give some idea. Input is always good!

Note that we do have a "design team" for input that was VERY helpful while we were working on the new design and testing.

It's dormant right now, as ther is nothing much they cna help with. Some info here:
HU Website Redesign intro

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post
Tim wrote:Well that is interesting. As soon as you mentioned that Tim, I thought right away to try other browsers...

Ok, so the code is there for the box to be expanded.
Thank you Tim for letting me know that you see them.
I wonder what browser on what OS you use?

Oddly, I've not come across this situation of not being able to expand the text field box with other forums I frequent using FireFox.

Which leads me to thinking that we have a problem with the forum software in that it is probably using non-conforming code, as I would understand that Mozilla FireFox has a significant share in the browser market.

So, I may need to use one of these other browsers to make posts to the HUB forum, mmmmmmm.
_____
Paul

Edit: I have just tried Google Chrome, latest version on Ubuntu 13.04 and it to shows the handles. But not FireFox.
Neither IE 10 not FF 21 show the expanding bottom right corner. boo.

Chrome, Safari on Win and Opera do, but they all lose the wysiwig / code option button. So nothing is perfect - and as anyone who works on the web will tell you, all the browsers are crap and none do it right, and it's an absolute nightmare just getting webpages "good enough" on all browsers if you're doing anything beyond the basics.

So there's a little to chew on, hope that answers some questions for all!

Please remember there is only the two of us, with a very limited budget, we put in long hours, and while some things may not make sense at first, there is usually a long range plan / reason behind it!

We need more advertisers, more Contributing Members, and more events, as they all help to pay the bills. I just paid Google $750 for an upgrade to our search engine as we went over the number of searches allowed in our previous version!

ALL input / suggestions /ideas, as always, are much appreciated and very carefully looked at.
We see things from a somewhat different view than you guys, so it's great to get the feedback.
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  #7  
Old 17 Jun 2013
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Grant and Susan, personally I love it as it is it works for me equally well on a netbook or PC as on an Android phone bar one tiny thing... That annoyingly massive Tapatalk box that has recently appeared sometimes at the very top pushing everything downward sometimes seemingly merging itself into the rest of the formatting so that the buttons peek out half behind headers or pictures.

Worse is that when I click on the close symbol it doesn't just go away, instead it redirects me to the Home Page.

Worst still having been thrown back to start again, as soon as I make my way to the HUBB, back it comes.

Can we not just have a little pop-up like other fora have? One which deploys a cookie if I say "No thanks"? I like the site as it is and the main reason I bought my ridiculously huge Galaxy Note is so that I could avoid mobile versions of websites. This feels too much like the decision on how I access Horizons Unlimited is being made for me.

But otherwise everything is perfect and I still don't know how you find the time or energy.
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Old 17 Jun 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockwallaby View Post
Thank you Tim for letting me know that you see them. I wonder what browser on what OS you use?
My preference is for Google Chrome on OS X, iOS and sometimes Windows. On the iPhone I never use mobile versions of sites, or TapTalk and the like, I much prefer to use the full size versions.
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  #9  
Old 18 Jun 2013
Grant Johnson's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexlebrit View Post
Grant and Susan, personally I love it as it is it works for me equally well on a netbook or PC as on an Android phone bar one tiny thing... That annoyingly massive Tapatalk box that has recently appeared sometimes at the very top pushing everything downward sometimes seemingly merging itself into the rest of the formatting so that the buttons peek out half behind headers or pictures.

Worse is that when I click on the close symbol it doesn't just go away, instead it redirects me to the Home Page.

Worst still having been thrown back to start again, as soon as I make my way to the HUBB, back it comes.

Can we not just have a little pop-up like other fora have? One which deploys a cookie if I say "No thanks"? I like the site as it is and the main reason I bought my ridiculously huge Galaxy Note is so that I could avoid mobile versions of websites. This feels too much like the decision on how I access Horizons Unlimited is being made for me.

But otherwise everything is perfect and I still don't know how you find the time or energy.
re Tapatalk, "oh dear" or words to that effect...

Will check into it. It's just completely default as is, so should work same as elsewhere...

thanks for letting me know!

Can you tell me a forum that uses it and it works as you expect?

thanks, Grant
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  #10  
Old 18 Jun 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexlebrit View Post
Grant and Susan, personally I love it as it is it works for me equally well on a netbook or PC as on an Android phone...
But otherwise everything is perfect and I still don't know how you find the time or energy.
I'm sure there's a formula somewhere that connects time and energy... and equals a better website!

perhaps 24/7+100e=web(squared)?

Truth is we're so far behind it's a joke, but we keep plugging away and stuff keeps getting done at some point. Main thing is to know the issues, so please keep telling us so we can prioritize and at the very least add it to the list. Sooner or later it gets done!
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  #11  
Old 18 Jun 2013
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Susan & Grant, http://www.adventurebike rider.com is an example of a site with Tapatalk capabilities and a one-time pop-up.

The one here has only very recently appeared, about the same time as the new sidebar, just after the HUBBUK.
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Last edited by Alexlebrit; 18 Jun 2013 at 19:32.
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  #12  
Old 18 Jun 2013
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Grant,
I appreciate your reply and how you addressed all the things I brought up in my first post. I understand it takes time to read, digest and respond accordingly. I accept much of what you say and I do know that things will change and improve with time. I guess some things are not a problem for some folks while it is to others.

Ultimately, I believe it possible to have a really good looking layout for this forum. While I say that, it is not to say that it is un-workable or not likeable.

The content is great and that is due to your users who contribute with writing.

I registered as a paid up member to show some very small appreciation, something I had overlooked at doing for some time.

I have installed TapaTalk 2 on my Samsung smartypantphone and have already viewed the HUB with it and am very happy with how that works as well. Using TapaTalk really does appear to shine on small devices and the speed of displaying a thread is quite fast. I guess that comes down to that it is just grabbing content and not all the other guff to make a web site look fancy. I'll need to spend time with it see how well it really does work for me.

Shifting into trip mode, six days and I fly back to France to start the next adventure, so much to do, so little time.
_____
Paul
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Last edited by rockwallaby; 18 Jun 2013 at 11:09.
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  #13  
Old 17 Jul 2013
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Location: Vancouver BC Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexlebrit View Post
Susan & Grant, http://www.adventurebike rider.com is an example of a site with Tapatalk capabilities and a one-time pop-up.

The one here has only very recently appeared, about the same time as the new sidebar, just after the HUBBUK.
Alexlebrit, how's it working for you now? There has finally been an upgrade, and it works perfectly for me.
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  #14  
Old 3 Sep 2013
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Just a quickie-, why is it that my ''last visited'' date always seems to be June 8th?, when quite clearly to me at any rate), it's almost daily. And yes I have tried refreshing the site a couple of times. I seem to be stuck in a time warp!!
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  #15  
Old 3 Sep 2013
Grant Johnson's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pongo View Post
Just a quickie-, why is it that my ''last visited'' date always seems to be June 8th?, when quite clearly to me at any rate), it's almost daily. And yes I have tried refreshing the site a couple of times. I seem to be stuck in a time warp!!
I've never definitively locked that one down, because I've not been able to replicate it, and there is no reason for it, other than browser cache, but try logging out, then back in again, and at the end of the day be sure to log out and then back in - just once might do it.

Also try a different browser and see what happens. I like Firefox and have no issues, every time I use chrome I remember why I like FF, though I've never noticed this issue. Susan uses IE and has no problem with this either.

Anyone else?

Grant
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