travel without a carnet de passage?
 

Hi,

I want to travel by motorcycle across Europe and, Middle East and Asia. I'll struggle to afford a 'carnet de passage' and wondered if anyone has any knowledge of customs fees/ deposits without the carnet?

Thanks!
Sarah

If you mean northern asia (Russia, the Stans and Mongolia) I dont think you need a carnet at all.
Some middle eastern countries say they require them, but border procedures do not always follow that.

Basically, as you may already know, you have to provide surety (returnable cash deposit or bank guarantee) to the Carnet provider and that must be equivalent to their maximum exposure.

At least with a UK or European Carnet provider you are reasonably assured of getting your surety back whereas you are unlikely to get it back immediatly at the exit point of a '3rd world' country.
Getting it later, from a distance, would terrify me as an administrative exercise!

In UK contact Paul Gowan at the RAC Bristol office. He is "The Man" for Carnets.

this cash deposit/ bank guarantee... are we talking tens, hundreds, or thousands?

It depends on your bike and the countries you have included within its Carnet. It will be a total of each country's maximum Customs Duty payable if your bike does not exit with the correct stamps.
That can depend on the cost or value of the bike - as each country might see it, probably based on importers catalogues.

I have heard talk of the potental duty being 100% of their idea of list cost in some cases - but I don't know for sure.

Sort out your intended route/countries, check their Customs, and, if still relevant, give Paul a ring or Email him.

I have a S Korean friend who rode from Soeul to UK then on in USA, via Russia, Kazakhstan, Iran Turkey and Greece/EU. He only needed a carnet for Iran. What it cost I don't know.

Personally I would not now go near Iran - potentially the next war zone and if so it will be very, very nasty and affect many countries.

nah, irans not on the list.. i guess i'll just forget the carnet and just take it as it comes....

thanks for your help :-)

The need for a carnet depends on where you want to go.

To get your vehicle to India, you will certainly need a carnet. And almost certainly for Pakistan as well.

But for the countries north side of Iran and Afghanistan, I don´t think it is even required.

this is where i'm getting confused...

i know of the carnet de passage en douane (you tie up approx 5 times the value of your vehicle in a guarantee, plus the extra grand or so it takes to staple the sheets of paper together, so the RAC can insure the country you're going to against you doing anything dodgy with said vehicle.)

for countries which 'require' a carnet, does that refer to this RAC scheme in particular, or is it just referring to the deposit that you would have to pay at customs in order to temporarily import the vehicle? (i am aware that the RAC document waives any deposit/ fee)

basically, is the RAC arrangement the only way of getting into a country like India with a vehicle.... or can i just sort it out with money at the border?

thanks :-)

I´ve only taken my bike to India with a carnet, so I don´t really know, how it would be without one. I guess it would be tough, because it is one of the few countries, that are really adamant about it. In fact I´ve never heard of anyone, who had done it that way.

Even if they would allow your vehicle to enter by placing a sizeable deposit at the border, would you do that (...do you carry this kind of money with you, and also: could you expect to get even half of it back, when you´re leaving)? I think such large sums of money, in a country where there´s lots of poverty, might have a nasty tendency to strangely "evaporate" :rofl:

Carnet Iran: Anyone here who has tried and successfully entered Iran without a Carnet lately? All info would be great. I guess I'll give it a try without it and go back and take the Ukraine route as a plan B.

Visas: Can there be obtained Visas along the way for some of the countries listed?(even transfer visas might be OK). I guess that Russia and Iran is a must to arrange upon arrival, and I am very usure what is possible to Turkmenistan, Uzbekistand, Kazakhstan and Mongolia. Anyone know if this can be arranged during the trip somewhere? Maybe the major cities in Neighbouring countries or maye transfer visas might work?
Thanks

the amount of money you have to deposit with your carnet provider is not necessarily the amount that some countries will demand from your carnet provider.

in germany the lowest deposit if you want to go trough iran is 3000Euro (depending on your bikes current value)
BUT if you really loose your bike in the country, iran will claim 300% of the list value of the bike from the carnet provider. ...and they will claim it from you.

The guy from the ADAC (german carnet provider) told me some nasty stories about this.

if found this map where you can see which countries require the carnet:
http://www.reisen-tcs.ch/travel/de/h...CarteImage.gif

cheers
moritz

^ Malaysia seems do-able without carnet, when you cross from Thailand. I´ve read, that it is actually not 100% obligatory in southern Africa either (but have no personal experience about bringing a vehicle there). Iran may not require it as strictly as Pakistan and India, but I don´t really know about it myself, as I had and used the carnet to bring my bike there.

And it seems widely accepted, that even if listed as "recommended", you do not in reality need the carnet, if going to the Stans north side of Iran/Afghanistan. And the same goes for all of South America, actually.

I have checked some pricing for a Carnet here in Norway - and with the Norwegian value of a newer BMW 1200 adventure the price for the carnet would end up around €9500 ($12.000 USD). I can't afford to put in all this money for a carnet - or even worse - get charged with 300% of this if the bike get stolen. (Due to heavy taxing a new bike in Norway is normally near double the price than in most other countries)

So let's say that I go from Turkey to the Iranian border and give it a try without a Carnet. If I can't get in to Iran without a carnet it might be an alternative to find a safe route to Azerbadjan and take the ferry over the Caspian sea (Baku - Turkmenbachy)? Anyone done this? Can the neccessary visas be arranged on the borders or do I need Visas to all these countries to make this happen?
Georgia (or Armenia), Azerbadjan.

IF neccessarry I will start the Visa process to the countries this week:
- Russia
- Iran (Picking up in Istanbull during the trip)
- Kazakhstan (Can it be arranged somewhere along the way?)
- Mongolia (Can it be arranged along the way?)
- Uzbekistan (Can it be arranged along the way?)
- Turkmenistan (Can it be arranged along the way?)

That must be the carnet bond you´re referring to. It willl be returned, once the bike is back home, and you have the certificate of location stamped (on the last page of the carnet). And the bond could usually be arranged as a bank guarantee. That will naturally cost something every month, and then you pay a fixed amount for issuing the carnet (I payed something like 200-300 euros).

If you take good care of your bike, the chance to have it stolen in some faraway country is quite small, I think. When there are close to zero big bikes around, it is no use to steal it for spare parts (like they do in Europe, for example)... and the thief also could not ride the stolen bike, because for the same reason, it´d catch so much attention. For night-time, you´re often allowed to keep it in the backyard, or sometimes even in the reception area of the accommodation.

But if you were still unfortunate enough to have your bike stolen in a carnet-country, you´d need to get a police report of the incident, and then you should get the bond released with that. This could be problematic in reality, I think.. or at least it could be a very, very long process. But having to pay 300% of the value – not sure, if I´m buying that. (But luckily I haven´t been in that situation myself, so this is just speculation!!)

Personally I would not base trips of this caliber around the carnet-thing. There´s always some annoying paperwork to deal with, no matter where you go. Besides, carnet is something, that you typically arrange BEFORE you even leave home. So it is a relatively small pain in the proverbial behind, once you are underway.

Pecha72: Thank you cery much for your quick respond. Apreciate it !!!
Carnet bond: Yes, that is correct that this is the size of the bond - which as a private person - has to be paid in advanced. A bank guarantee might be an option I have not thought of. A company will usually get a credit if the rating is well.
30% of the value of the equipment + around 300 Euros + some small fees. All in All for a new big bike - it will completely ruin my travelbudget just for one country (Iran). Guess I will try without it and see how it goes and rather plan an alternative route nearby if I can't get to Iran without an Carnet. As give it a shot and see how it goes :) Was hoping someone here had experiences with getting into Iran wihtout carnet lately :)
300%: Just something I read somewhere at the forums. Not first hand information.

I don´t think it should ruin anyones trip budget, if you are able to arrange the bond as a bank guarantee. (There could also be an option to do it like an ´insurance´, but about this I know nothing – I just remember this being discussed here some time ago; I´d advice to ask your AA about those options).

I haven´t calculated the exact figures, but 4 years ago I think I certainly payed less than 1000 euros total (or maybe even less than 500), when I had the carnet, valid for 1 year, to take my bike to Iran, Pakistan, India, Malaysia, Indonesia & Australia. And this includes everything (all issuing fees, and also all interests & fees associated to the bank guarantee, that I had for it). What your bank will charge you, will naturally depend on many factors, you´ll need to ask them about it. The bond for an almost new Suzuki DL650 was 5000 euros here in Finland, so that was the amount of ´loan´ I had to take.

If money is short, then another thing to seriously consider is getting a cheaper travel bike. Generally less to worry about financially, as bikes will have a tough time on trips like this.... and it could also affect your carnet bond size. People do big trips on many, many kinds of bikes, the big GS´s aren´t the only ones, that are capable.

But first of all (and sorry, if I´ve completely missed this): what is your route plan / where do you want to go to?? That´ll be the key factor, when talking about the carnet.

Pecha72: Apreciate your sharing :)
It is true that a cheaper bike will set you off with less for the carnet. I am also looking into cheaper bikes. The good thing about a GSA is that it is almost complete and there are not need for many modifications (Time and cost), but it is more expencive to buy and might be a higher risk if it get stolen during your trip - a world wide covering insurance can be difficult as it seems now.

Route is planned something like this, but I guess it will be changed some during the trip. Also in each country there will be some domestic roadtrips to explore highlights. Basically it is only Iran which requires a carnet on this trip and I guess that it might be a good idea to have a backup plan in case I don't get in there with a carnet.. :)
RTW 2012 - Google Maps

I´m sure the GS1200 is one of the best bikes for long-distance touring. But once you´re outside the Green Card-countries, the bike itself will most likely be uninsured. Or maybe some other policy could be found for North America, but can be costly (don´t confuse this with 3rd party insurance, which is a different matter, I´m talking about only the bike itself here). And while I´m not a person who´ll rely on insurance on basically anything, its value could make me a bit nervous. I´d much rather take that risk with a bike, that costs about half, for example. But of course it will be important to go with the bike you are happy to go with. Just remember, if bad luck strikes, you risk losing it completely.

The route you have there on Google maps, I´d probably not bother with the carnet, as there are ways to get around Iran in case that it won´t work out.

(But do note, that Iran is (or at the very least it was, 4 years ago) an absolutely fantastic country to visit. The locals are just amazing. Even it the future doesn´t look very promising, I would want to return there some day. I´m really hoping there will be a non-violent solution to the current crisis).

Our trip, including Iran in (Nov. 2007), here:
MOTO1 - Matkalla

Noticed on your map it stipulates a carnet is essential for Japan. I've read that you can get in on the Sakhalin ferry without one. Want to go next year via Russia on the TSH so whether to get one or not is a big decision!!

Basically i have recently traveld to pakistan from UK and i didnt take a Carnet, but the problem starts from Turkey to Iran border, you need a carnet for iran, so i spent 13 hours on iran border i met lots of agents selling me carnets on the border for 1000euros, i finally haggled one agent down to 650euros and i went straight thru trouble free, Carnet is very important otherwise you will have the world of trouble which will ruin your mood to continue the trip, now theirs a way around it, if anyone can get a hold of hungarian or polish carnets dummys ofcourse you got your self a ticket to heaven, i met three european guys at the border of iran they had ''FAKE'' Carnets and they swimmed thru with no hassle unfortunatly i lost their contact numbers as i lost my phones in pakistan, wounder.... hope this helps....

It is my understanding from own experience, and following the forums, that Iran could somehow be possible without carnet (but can be a hassle), for Pakistan it is simply better to get one, and you positively will not get your vehicle to India without carnet.

And think twice, before you fake carnets on this route.. due to security reasons I once had to spend a night at a police station in Pakistan. Right next to my room there was the cell for the detained people, at least 50 of them behind bars in a very small space. I remember thinking I'll do my best, so that I will NOT end up locked in there with that crowd!

Oooops ok why did you get locked up in pakistan??????

I didn't. We spent too much time in Dalbandin, where we met another traveller, that we could not arrive in Quetta before sundown. So we looked up the nearest village from the road (Nushkin), and either there wasn't any accommodation to be found, or sometimes they don't take foreigners in that region, can't remember which one. So ended up spending the night at the police station. Nothing very dramatic about it.

Ok in regards to the carnet, do you know if its checked internationally, in Iran or they just look at it stamp it and tear it off, a few years ago on here people used a man called Mr Carnet, who had forged Carnets, and they had no issues, it just sucks leaving all that money as security, besides i have no intentions of bringing the car back, i just need to cross the Quetta border smoothly....cheers mate

Mr carnet
 

Hallo, I'm new.
I will travel till Australia from Spain if I can manage to have meet mr carnet, I have already read about him but can't find any contact. Someone can help me please?
Thanks

Im in need of a "creative alternative" to an official Carnet de Passage to get out of India and into Pakistan. I have an Indian bike, in my name, and need to go through pakistan to get to Kyrgystan (via china). I will not be returning to India with bike so dont want to spend all the cash for an official carnet because I would lose the deposit. If anyone knows anyone who can help with this please message me. Or if anyone has a recently issued Indian carnet that they could scan and email me that could help too. Thanks!

As for visas - some countries won't give you a visa if you just turn up at the border and some only require visas from certain nationalities, and occasionally some nationalities can only get the visa by personal application to the embassy in their home country, so there are no rules and you have to check the requirements of each country well before you set off.

Never again with a Carnet !!!
 

Hi,
I travelled 2002 - 2005 with two Carnet de Passage across Asia and India - two carnets, because after only 3 days I had a crash in Latvia with a drunken car driver (after midnight): broken legs, 7 months rehabilitation and then buy one more BMW R 80 GS, and of course one more Carnet.
Only in India I had problems with the custom - not for come into the country from China / Nepal, but only to get out to Pakistan across Wagah-border (Arimtsar / Lahore); there they have a very properly border procedure, even with daily parades, no exeptions possible:
They did not want to let me out of India, because my carnet was valid only one year, but my second start to travel (with a fine new Carnet) was in January 2003, 3 1/2 years before.
I told the custom officers, that of course this Carnet is still guilty, because I must bring back this "old" Carnet with a EU-custom stamp and only then I will get back my 3000 €. All my trying (also offering some money) did not help, I had to let back my bike in India - where it is standing and waiting for me until today!!
And back home in Germany, of course I did not get back my deposit money from the german auto-club ADAC - I had to wait and write and wait, etc. until 2013, then finally I got my money back, 14 years after I made the deposit of 3000 € to the ADAC (of course with no interest money!!)
Therefore never again with Carnet!! - also because I am no longer inhabitant of any country; I am a traveller for the coming ten years; the world is my home (and the roads and garages!).

Norbert Berentz
- actual in Pointe-Noire (Congo - Brazzaville), looking for an angolan visa!

I don't know if this is helpful, but after hearing lots of horror stories about massive Carnet bond payments I finally went to the Oman Automobile Club to ask specifically what I would need to put down to take my '13 Ducati Multistrada GT through Iran.

The answer was 700 Omani Rials which is around US$1,800. Not a huge burden when you consider the other costs of a serious transcontinental trip and that the bike carries a value here of around US$26,000.

Also, is it possible to get your bond refunded as soon as you leave Iran and send back the Carnet paperwork to the issuer, freeing up the money for the rest of your trip?