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-   -   SORN, MOT, Registration for Long-term-overseas UK bikers or drivers (https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/trip-paperwork/sorn-mot-registration-long-term-39472)

popotla 13 Dec 2008 11:14

SORN, MOT, Registration for Long-term-overseas UK bikers or drivers
 
If travelling out of the UK when the vehicle taxation/licence expires ("road fund licence", as it used to be or still possibly might be known), if one is to be fully road-legal, the licence must be renewed. Right? And if away long-term, more than one renewal might be needed.

In practice, do you actually renew each time, and if so how? And what about the MOT certificate, needed - I understand- in order to re-tax the vehicle?

MikeS 13 Dec 2008 12:07

Just do a SORN when you leave. Only lasts for a year but if you can't get anyone to renew it (maybe do it online?), I wouldn't worry about it too much. I got a few narky letters when I got back but nothing came of it.

popotla 13 Dec 2008 15:02

Sorry, my question wasn’t clear (and I’m going to re-post it).

I meant “If travelling out of the UK with the vehicle when the licence expires …………….?"

popotla 13 Dec 2008 15:10

Qtn. for UK bikers/drivers
 
Sorry, my question below wasn’t clear (so please read this one).

I meant “If travelling out of the UK with the vehicle when the licence expires, do you in fact renew it (possibly more than once, if away for a long time), and if so, how do you do this?

Also, the matter of the MOT test might arise. If this is due while overseas with the vehicle -and since the MOT is needed in order to licence the vehicle- how is this matter overcome?

docsherlock 13 Dec 2008 15:51

In order to get a road fund license in the UK you need to present valid insurance and a current MoT; as far as I know there is no way around this.

In addition, you need to make a SORN or statutory off road notification if you are not using the bike on public roads and not taxing it. They fine you £80 for not doing this if you don't pay the tax.

It's all a bit of a nause really but you could export the bike if you are going away for a significant amount of time....

SW

Alexlebrit 13 Dec 2008 17:10

I'm guessing you mean if you're going for more than a year? Because if you're going for nine months and lets say had four months on your current tax disc, you could get a refund on it and apply for a new year's one.

But if it's more than a year, I don't know, I'd guess SORN-ing it would be an option, as after all it's not on the public highway (in the UK) anymore, but then what do you do when you come back? I suppose you could say you were on the way to the MOT Station? Probably best to contact the DVLA directly, I have to say I've never had a problem and they've always e-mailed me back very quickly.

In France I see plenty of old UK cars with old tax-discs on, which clearly have no MOT either, and of course the big question then is, if any of these has an accident, will the insurance pay out?

So, I'd ring your insurer too and explain, and see if they would cover and get it in writing, I reckon in many ways that's more important than a tax disc.

Tony P 13 Dec 2008 18:08

Here we go again!
 
As in many previous threads -

UK Road Tax is only payable for UK registered vehicles when using public roads in UK. ie within the jurisdiction of UK Road Traffic Acts etc. If not on UK public roads not payable.

You can even apply for a part refund as you leave.

If a UK vehicle registered vehicle is not to be taxed (or a refund is requested because it is not going to be used on UK public roads) a SORN declaration must be made (free) that it is not going to be used on UK public roads. This must be done again annually. It can be done 'on-line' (ie from anywhere in the World) during the month before and after the Road Tax or SORN expires.

MOT is similarly only necessary if the vehicle is going to be used within the jurisdiction of the UK Road Traffic Acts (ie UK public roads).

On returning to UK it is permitted to use the vehicle without MOT and Road Tax to get to and from a MOT Test Station for a pre-arranged test appointment. The station can be anywhere in the land, not near the point of entry or your home - if stopped you be able to show you are reasonably en-route and give details of the appoiment time/date/place so they can check up.

So, book the test as you disembark, or while you are still away.

Insurance is a necessity throughout the EU and most of the rest of the World, so it is assumed you will have that anyway.

Never NEVER NEVER ask the DVLA. The only people you get to speak to generally know nothing!

RogerM 14 Dec 2008 09:27

Yep, here we go again.

Trouble is that when you de register your vehicle in the UK, to comply with the law in practically every country that you visit it must be registered. Your Green Card insurance or legal minimum insurance (EU) will be invalid as soon as you de register.

Within the Vienna Convention countries its an absolute must to have current vehicle registration to be legal and comply with the international treaty that allows free(ish) movement of vehicles - and a lot of coppers and border guards KNOW what a UK tax disc looks like, as well as the uniform registration documents. Its even harder for UK residents as so many people speak and read English and can easily read a UK V5.

Vienna Convention summary;
"The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration.

The driver must carry the vehicle's registration certificate, and if the vehicle is not registered in the name of an occupant of the vehicle, proof of the driver's right to be in possession of the vehicle."

If you travel with a carnet, then a condition on the carnet is current registration, some countries will only permit entry on a carnet based on the length of registration that is left.

I see a business opportunity here!!!

docsherlock 14 Dec 2008 09:32

So the answer is to buy a new bike which will not need an MoT for three years; tax and insure it remotely - get the disc posted to you and you're away. Of course the difficulty is buying a new bike....

SW

Alexlebrit 14 Dec 2008 15:08

I presume then that the Vienna Convention equally applies to any MOT then, as that's a legal requirement for a British vehicle too?

I see a nice little dodge though, bring your vehicle to France, I'll register it at my address, and then you won't EVER need a tax disc as we don't have them here.

DVLA, I wouldn't telephone for a response, I'd e-mail them, you don't usually get and instant reply, you'll get a considered reply a couple of days later, and that will have the correct information and help within.

Redboots 14 Dec 2008 16:07

For a vehicle to be legal outside its country of registration, it must be legal in its home country.
For the UK, that's taxed, MOT'ed and insured.

However, how many foreign fuz would look for a tax disc, I don't know. There are plenty of Brits living in France and Spain that dodge the tax disc... with seeming impunity...

Alexlebrit, are your quad things classed as bikes or cars in France?
In China, I had to get a "Safety Inspection" done on my BM because, being registered in France I didn't have one. My mate forgot to bring the MOT certificate for his bike so was in the same boat.
Simple check though... sit on bike, squeeze brake and clutch levers, passed!

John

Alexlebrit 14 Dec 2008 16:20

So to the OP it looks like there's no strictly legal way to do it, I'd guess drive on your tax disc till it gets close to running out then get to an internet café and SORN it from there.

But look out in France, I don't know about Mister Boots, but up here in Brittany les flics have started impounding British cars without the proper documentation.

Tony P 14 Dec 2008 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerM (Post 218899)
Vienna Convention summary;
"The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration."

OK- say it meets it! Just there is no requirement to have a certificate to that effect (MOT) with you. Some countries have no periodic Technical Examination for all or some classes of vehicles.


Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerM (Post 218899)
If you travel with a carnet, then a condition on the carnet is current registration, some countries will only permit entry on a carnet based on the length of registration that is left.

I see a business opportunity here!!!

LOL.
UK Registration is known a Continuous Registration and is perpetual unless it is declared as sold, scrapped or permanantly exported. (See Final notes on a V5,Page4).
Hence the obligation is to SORN it or to buy Road Tax EACH AND EVERY year for ever and ever.
Therefore a UK Registration is always 'current', even if the Road Tax or SORN is not. So this Carnet condition is not a starter for UK vehicles.

-- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Steve.
Got your PM. Will reply fully later. In the meantime these are some similar threads
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mot-road-32649
and
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...rn-again-34052
and
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ax-while-25088
- - - - - - - - - - - - -- -

Alex/Red
I think your local fuz are after UK and other non French registered vehicles that are more or less permanantly in France and should really be registered locally. EC Directive 83/182 allows for visiting vehicles for visits of up to six months in a 12 month period - thereafter local registration necessary. We all know this is being considerably 'extended' by many ex-pats.

RogerM 15 Dec 2008 11:25

However, how many foreign fuz would look for a tax disc, I don't know. There are plenty of Brits living in France and Spain that dodge the tax disc... with seeming impunity...

There was a widely reported roundup of UK (un)registered cars in Spain last year when we were there in April. It was conducted with English speaking coppers and by all accounts UK officials were involved with providing additional information from the DVLA about the vehicles and drivers. The German residents had also been caught, but they are very easy to spot with date stickers on their number plates.

Alexlebrit 15 Dec 2008 11:28

Oh I'm sure they are after those ex-pats who think they can get away with not re-registering, my point was more that if say you're on your way back through Europe and you don't have a current tax-disc on display, they might impound first and ask questions later. There's enough illegally used British cars here for them to all be aware what a UK tax disc should look like.

Alexlebrit 15 Dec 2008 15:02

The DVLA's reply
 
Out of interest I e-mailed the DVLA using the link I posted above and here's the reply.


Thank you for your email.

You would not be able to make a SORN declaration with regard to your vehicle because it is out of the country. SORN can only be declared on a vehicle when it is laid up within the confines of the UK.

Because you would not be able to tax your vehicle nor declare it off road let alone permanently export it you would need to write a letter into us. It would be necessary for you to quote the registration number and for you to explain what you intend to do with the vehicle over the next couple of years or so. You can even ask for this correspondence to be placed on the vehicle record so that you are not bothered about any fines or penalties with regard to this vehicle.

The address to write or fax into is;
Vehicle Customer Services, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA.
Fax No. 01792 - 782378.

I hope that this information has clarified matters for you.
Regards
David S Evans
Motoring : Directgov


So it would appear to be perfectly OK to drive round the world in an untaxed, unsorned vehicle according to the DVLA, and I'd suggest that if anyone wants to do this they let them know, that way when the shit hits the fan you can point at their records and say "I told you so".

Might be interesting for a few other people to mail them to see if you get the same answer.

Tony P 15 Dec 2008 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexlebrit (Post 219031)
There's enough illegally used British cars here for them to all be aware what a UK tax disc should look like.

Forgive me - how does that work?
Illegally used cars would presumably not have a current or out of date tax disc showing, and more likely not one at all, so how do they know from this source what it should look like? They are used to looking at nothing!

Back to my original point. UK Road Tax is a UK tax, for UK registered vehicles only (ignoring commercials), being used on UK public roads only. If it is not on UK public roads it is not due. But you should SORN it as not being used or kept on UK public roads.

The Geneva Convention (GC) is about recriprocal rights for visitors temporary use of public roads elsewhere than in their own country, without the need for payment of local Customs and Import Taxes of the Country being visited, or have local registration. Customs Import Taxes, Sales Tax, etc, if any, would have been paid in the country of origin, prior to it granting the registration.

The GC is not about an internal tax for internally registered vehicles for using or not using public roads in their own country. But for use in other countries it does require the vehicle to be technically valid (ie in terms of design, specification, construction and mechanical maintenance) in the country of Registration. Even to the point of not having to comply with local laws of the country being visited, if their rules are in conflict.

It also stastes the white GB, F, AUS etc discs be displayed - not the little blue squares on number plates - they are not valid under the GC. So much for Blair/Browns regard for internationally accepted rules when it suits them cow-towing to the EU seeking their place in history!

Tony P 15 Dec 2008 15:43

Alex
I posted before reading yours.
Well done. A most useful document to have. Are they backing it up with a hard copy? That is one of the points I have been banging on about for years.

Not only does it show they cannot make up thier minds and keep changing their view, but it also throws some light on what has been a potential can of worms- Permanant Export.

Someone at DVLA did once verbally insist Road Tax was payable if using public roads abroad but could not cite the actual legislation empowering this.When asked a few weeks later they could not give an answer!

Permanant Export. Their website and V5 (V5C) says if taking the vehicle out of the UK for more than 12 months it is regarded as Permanant Export. As has been gone through many times previously on HUBB, this would effectivly nullify the Registration and make longer journeys illegal under the GC. The general advice on HUBB had been to ignore this, dont put your head above the parapet by asking, and just go and keep SORNing online.

As someone once posted (and I have oft repeated) never, NEVER, NEVER tell DVLA anything. Now that might be changed!

This Email (and hopefully a legal hard copy) is most useful.
Thanks.

Alexlebrit 15 Dec 2008 16:10

Hard Copy??? HAHAHA!! But I suppose one could write to them, do they still accept letters?

It's one of the reasons why it would be worth other people asking the same question, just to check that there's no conflicting answers from different client advisers (or whatever they're called these days).

RACPG 17 Dec 2008 19:09

A result !
 
Hi all

I have watching this thread with interest.. you can imagine that I am often asked this question in relation to carnet issue & extended overseas travel. What do I do about road tax/ MOT ??

I called DVLA Vehicle Policy Unit some years ago & got the standard response that yes, Continuous Registration applies. But if exporting the vehicle for more than 12 months, the V5 should be surrendered & a Certificate of Export is issued to assist with registration in the country of destination. Standard wording on V5 & elsewhere. Of course, irrelevant because you are not taking up residency in another country, purely visiting !

It was implied to me that an official SORN declaration would be an option but DVLA would not put this in writing.... understandably.

It is therefore gratifying that DVLA do finally seem to recognise the overlanding community by suggesting you write to Customer Services outlining your plans & a letter will be put on file.

Thanks to Tony P for constant hammering & especially to Alexlebrit for taking the time to enquire & posting response onto this thread.

Agree... it would be interesting if others were to enquire to see if DVLA continue to sing from same hymm sheet !

Paul

Tony P 17 Dec 2008 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by RACPG (Post 219303)
Agree... it would be interesting if others were to enquire to see if DVLA continue to sing from same hymm sheet !

In order to get a reply in writing (on DVLA letterhead) as opposed to a less legally binding Email, I intend to write a letter to them in next few days.

Hopefully they will still give the same answer as they gave Alex. However they are notorious for answering differently each time the same question is asked - depending on the differing levels of knowledge and helpfulness of the person being asked the question. Also, I always feel an answer very much depends on the question and how it is asked.

When I hear back I will post here a scan of the question and reply, that others can hopefully use. If it is positive, I will also make photocopies available via PM. I am afraid it probably will not be until February when I will see the reply, as I am away in RUS for all of January (planning for next years trips amongst other things!).

Yes, Cheers to Alex. He really has finally opened this up. Praise too to DVLA who appear to have, at last, grasped the nettle.

mustaphapint 18 Dec 2008 22:00

I was bored this morning so I emailed the DVLA with the following question:-

Please can you advise how I could remain legal if taking my UK vehicle abroad for an extended period say 2 years on a multi country trip.
I know you say I should export the vehicle if it's to be out of the country for over a year. But that is only practical if the vehicle is to be re-registered in another country. If I am constantly travelling between countries that cannot be done.
I know I can renew my road tax via the internet, but I can only do this if I have a current MOT.
It is not possible to renew a UK MOT whilst abroad, so once the MOT expires I cannot retax the vehicle without returning to the UK and as soon as I drive off the ferry I am committing an offense.
Are there any concessions for this catch 22 situation?

And I received the following reply:-

Thank you for your email.
You are right when you say that it would not be practical to register your vehicle in another country if you are passing through a large number of them over a two year period.
You would not be able to tax your vehicle because of the lack of a valid MOT certificate and you would not be able to declare your vehicle off the road because this can only be done if the vehicle was being laid up within the confines of the UK.
In these circumstances you would need to write a letter into the Centre quoting the registration mark of the vehicle and explaining why it would not be taxed or declared off the road over the next 2 years or so. You can ask for this correspondence to be entered on to the vehicle record. This would ensure that you would not receive any fines or penalties with regard to the fact that your car will not be taxed.
The following contact information should be used with regard to this matter;
Vehicle Customer Services, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA.
I hope that this matter has clarified matters for you.
Regards
David S Evans
Motoring : Directgov

Alexlebrit 19 Dec 2008 10:30

Harley Rider, that's excellent, I did the same for the other thread, and got the SAME ANSWER, interestingly from the same person, which makes me think he's possibly the bod awkward questions get passed up to.

Nice to know that we both got the same reply, it seems to make it more legit.

Alexlebrit 19 Dec 2008 10:33

Harleyrider did the same as me but posted it on the other thread. He got the SAME ANSWER interestingly from the same person (awkward question department?) so that's good to know. Even better would as you say to have this in writing, but it's good to have it confirmed.

Paul, I'm amazed the DVLA couldn't give you a decent answer given who you work for, you'd think they'd be keen on fostering good relations with the motoring associations. Perhaps you could try the written route too, surely they'd respond to something on RAC letter paper?

RogerM 26 Dec 2008 20:54

Trouble is that the turkey at the DVLA is giving a British centric answer of the question asked - its not being untaxed back in the UK you have to worry about. Try asking him to produce a "perpetual registration" document (maybe a V5andabit) so that when you cross a border or just get stopped by a copper and are asked to produce the vehicle papers you have something that says your registration in the UK never expires. I can just imagine some out of the way border crossing guards pissing themselves with laughter with the "its got perpetual registration in the UK" excuse, but the date on the V5 expired 2 years ago. It only takes one savvy/corrupt border guard or policeman to destroy a great travel experience and relieve you of a lot of money to get your vehicle past his control point.

Try asking the DVLA what paperwork they will provide you with that complies with the Vienna Convention when your road tax/MOT expire whilst you are out of the country. Bet that answer will take a bit longer to come through and I suspect that it will be a backflip.

Dont forget that UK Police and Ministry of Transport inspectors have done big roundups and impoundments (such a word?) of foreign trucks in the UK over the last few years without current registration documents from their own countries - using the Vienna Convention as the legal basis for their actions.

Alexlebrit 26 Dec 2008 21:37

I'd guess he's giving a British-centric answer cos he's a Brit. I can see however that we're demonstrating how flexible the English language is.

A V5 is a PERPETUAL REGISTRATION for as long as the "life" of a car registered in the UK. Permanently export it and you have to send the V5 back and get a Certificate of Export. Scrap it and you send the V5 back. Sell it and the V5 passes into the hands of the new owner (via the DVLA who change the ownership details on it). No matter what the V5 stays "with" the vehicle. The V5 is a paper document which lists various identifiers particular to the vehicle and its registered owner.

A Vehicle Excise Duty (or road fund) licence is an annual or biannual variable rate tax payable in order to legally drive on UK roads by most categories of UK registered vehicle. "Taxed" vehicles are required to display a paper disc on the vehicle (usually behind the windscreen or in a special holder on the frame) You can exempt your UK registered vehicle from this by applying for a Statutary Off the Road Notice (SORN) if it remains in the UK, or as we've seen from the replies from the DVLA above, by writing to the DVLA to say your vehicle has left the UK but not for permanent export.

The MOT Test is an annual inspection carried out by an approved test centre and overseen by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA). The MOT is not (usually) required for vehicle within the first three years of registration. If your vehicle meets the minimum requirements it will be issued with a paper certificate which should be kept with the vehicle

So you can see that UK VEHICLE REGISTRATION, (like that of many other countries) is in no way dependant on payment of Vehicle Excise Duty nor passing the MOT Test, your vehicle remains registered whether it is within the UK or not, until the owner makes a declaration to the DVLA to state otherwise.

And I hope that clears up some of the meanings of the various terms.

Redboots 27 Dec 2008 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexlebrit (Post 220160)
Permanently export it and you have to send the V5 back and get a Certificate of Export.

Hi Axel,

above is the only bit I would question the sense in doing... imagine turning up at you local Prefecture with an export certificate instead of the V5:eek3: :funmeterno: :cursing:

Its as bad a all the bollocks MAF give you for the export, (permanent), of pets, (dogs, cats... not horses 'cos they eat those), and the forms you have to BUY. No one on this side of the channel is the slightest bit interested in them.

John

RACPG 29 Dec 2008 13:28

DVLA follow up
 
Hi all/Alex

Picked up on thread on return to office today.

Glad to see same response from DVLA again.

Bearing in mind that my last approach to DVLA was some 2/3 years ago. I will, time permitting, follow up again asap & get, hopefully, an official written reply to clarify once & for all.

Cheers & a Happy New Year to all HUBBers

Paul

JMo (& piglet) 10 Jan 2009 11:06

Information overload!
 
Hi Alex - Thanks for making that clear to RogerM (and anyone else not familiar with the UK terms) - I guess the confusion is due to the fact that in some countries - the US particularly (and presumably Australia to?), the ownership paper is referred to as a 'Title' while the 'registration' (ie. the letters on the numberplate) is renewed each year along with a payment, like we renew our tax discs...

So if it wasn't clear already, the UK ownership paper* (V5 document) includes the vehicle's registration number - which is displayed on the vehicle numberplate, and remains with the vehicle indefinitely.

We then pay a separate annual 'road tax' (which is displayed separately on a paper disc) to the government each year so we can use the overcrowded, under maintained roads...

It is this tax disc (road fund licence) that popotla is referring to, and as Tony P suggested originally, if you are going away for an extended period and there is any significant refund to be had, then I'd suggest it is still better to SORN the vehicle and take the money back in my opinion!

xxx

*If we are being pedantic, then technically the UK V5 document only shows the 'registered keeper' of the vehicle, and not necessarily the legal owner - although these tend to be, and are taken as, one and the same. Only in certain circumstances, the actual owner of the vehicle may be a business or finance company for example, but the main user of the vehicle is the person who's name is on the V5...

It (and this thread as a whole) just goes to show how messed up and bureaucratic the UK is these days... no wonder we travel!

Alexlebrit 10 Jan 2009 12:21

As we'd obviously all like our money back, I've sent the following to the DVLA:
Hello

Further to the advice given in previous correspondance, about not SORN-ing a vehicle if it is to be used out of the country for more that 12 months, but not permanently exported to another country could you advise me of the following?

I understand one can drive an un-MOT-ed, and so I presume un-taxed, vehicle to the testing station if an appointment has been made in advance, but this would be impossible when I am not in the UK, and also I would prefer to unload and make any neccessary repairs before booking an MOT. Consequently what should I do upon my return to the UK between the port of entry and my home given that I would be driving with neither a valid Tax Disc nor MOT?

If I have taxed my vehicle just prior to my leaving the UK am I eligable to apply for a refund on the unused portion of the Tax Disc, and if so how do I fill out refund form V14 given that none of the situations mentioned on it would apply to my circumstances?

I'll post the reply when I get it, so far they've been very reasonable about this and replied quickly, so if they stay like that I'll e-mail them back and suggest that they produce some form of written document which could be referred to by this and any other site, and also by any motoring associations, carnet issuers, insurers etc.

JMo (& piglet) 10 Jan 2009 18:54

Personally I think you're just baiting the bear there Alex! - but it would be nice to hear what they have say to that particular issue...

Of course no-one wants to break the law intentionally, so it would be nice to know the 'official' line... but the whole situation does go to show how snowed under we have become with petty legislation, that really serves no useful purpose other than to line the coffers of the government...

I'd say the chances of getting stopped between the ferry port and your home on the return journey from a trip is miniscule in the UK these days!

xxx

Hooli 10 Jan 2009 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) (Post 222509)

I'd say the chances of getting stopped between the ferry port and your home on the return journey from a trip is miniscule in the UK these days!

it is, but the chances of getting caught by a DVLA camera is rather higher. you often see them beside mainroads.

JMo (& piglet) 10 Jan 2009 19:52

1984
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooli (Post 222520)
it is, but the chances of getting caught by a DVLA camera is rather higher. you often see them beside mainroads.

Don't you love this country...

xxx

Hooli 10 Jan 2009 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) (Post 222529)
Don't you love this country...

xxx

actually that & redlights is the ONLY time i agree with cameras on the roads. not only do they check for tax, more importantly they check for insurance. the more uninsured people off the roads the better, its bad enough when mr retard tries to kill you & has a policy to buy you a new bike.

MikeS 11 Jan 2009 02:25

Well said!

I just SORN'd mine when I left for the Americas and had no trouble at all when i came back. I booked an MOT where I came off the ferry and got some UK insurance sorted while i was in Holland before I left Europe.

On my last trip from Singapore, my insurance co wouldn't given me any insurance for the EU from Turkey onwards back home, they said I had to arrange it from the UK and not while I was on the trip so had no insurance at all that time. I got ins for Turkey at the border but at least I tried...

[QUOTE=... but the whole situation does go to show how snowed under we have become with petty legislation, that really serves no useful purpose other than to line the coffers of the government...

I'd say the chances of getting stopped between the ferry port and your home on the return journey from a trip is miniscule in the UK these days!

xxx[/QUOTE]

JMo (& piglet) 11 Jan 2009 07:53

Big Brother? - Big Bother!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hooli (Post 222563)
actually that & redlights is the ONLY time i agree with cameras on the roads. not only do they check for tax, more importantly they check for insurance. the more uninsured people off the roads the better, its bad enough when mr retard tries to kill you & has a policy to buy you a new bike.

I agree uninsured drivers are a potential menace - however, the UK doesn't make it any easier - you cannot insure a vehicle with an UK insurance company unless it is registered in the UK - therefore, if you are traveling to the UK on a foreign machine, you have to get your insurance (minimum 3rd party) in mainland Europe... how stupid is that?*

It just goes to show that all the UK authorities are really interested in is revenue from their automatic number plate recognition systems - they don't have our personal interests at heart, all they care about is fleecing the motorist for as much money as they can get, especially the moment you don't comply with their ill thought-out legislation!

*I had to insure my US registered motorcycle in Germany, before I could ride it in my own country! While presumably the UK authorities considered that a vehicle traveling overland to the UK would have to pass though another EU country first (and thus obtain their insurance there) - what they failed to realise is that the UK is a major European port for sea and air freight, and many travelers from outside the EU will ship via the UK... who are then faced with the potential problem of not actually being able to collect their vehicle from the port!

Almost every other country in the world insures vehicles based on the VIN (chassis) number, so there is no need to register the vehicle in the particular country if you are merely a temporary visitor, you just insure it on the chassis number...

I'd suggest it is no coincidence that the UK has the highest proportion of road traffic cameras of any country in the world, and 20% of ALL the CCTV cameras in the world...

xxx

Alexlebrit 11 Jan 2009 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) (Post 222509)
Personally I think you're just baiting the bear there Alex! - but it would be nice to hear what they have say to that particular issue...

Well I figure if you're going to contact officialdom you may as well do it properly, so bear-baiting is fine by me (in the virtual sense). Mind you it occured to me last night just after I mailed, why am I doing this? I don't even live in the UK anymore! It should be up to one of you UK residents really.

I guess I just like to get an answer to these questions, so that when the next person posts about SORN-ing, we can just say "Go look at the sticky". Mind you they'll probably change the rules, and the sticky will be out of date, but...

Hooli 11 Jan 2009 12:55

I didnt know a lot of that about trying to get into the UK JMo & Piglet, ive not travelled enough to learn these things. i agree with your comments about how shite the rules here are too.
all i can say is as we dont have traffic cops enforcing any level of driving standards nowdays its good that we have something to try & make the loons who shouldnt be driving able to pay for the damage they do.

personally i wouldnt trust anything to do with the British legal system further than i could throw gorgon slackjaw broon. too many bad experiences with them.

criboun 17 Mar 2009 10:34

In addition to road Tax and MOT issues you'll need to consider vehicle registration.

I spoke to the DVLA about an imminent motorbike trip through Mexico, Central and South America (April '09 for 12 months +) and they informed me that "if exporting the bike for less than 12 months it remains registered in UK but if over 12 months I send them section 11 of my V5 (Notification of Permanent Export)". I wanted to keep my V5 intact (to reduce questions at border crossings on my trip) so they were happy for me to send them a photocopy of my V5 with a letter, stating I'm taking the vehicle out of the UK for 12 months or more and I'll re-register it on my return. Send to "Exports Department, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BD".

Haven't given returning the bike to UK much thought yet but if I decide not to risk it from UK port to home I'll get the thing transported all the way home in a van/trailer I guess.

Ollie

Greasy Sproket

Alexlebrit 17 Mar 2009 11:04

Ollie, you don't need to though, both Harley Rider and myself have contacted the DVLA with very specific questions and both had the same reply, see post 16 on this thread.

All you need to do is write them a letter, no doubt a photocopy of your V5 would be handy to enclose, explaining you're off on a trip but not permanently exporting to any one country and your vehicle will remain registered in the UK, but you won't be liable for fines concerning tax-discs as you're not driving in the UK. You'll keep your full V5 for any stroppy border guards, and when you return you just go and MOT and tax it.

Nice and easy.

ilesmark 17 Mar 2009 11:59

FWIW, here's my 2 penn'oth

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mot-road-32649

My understanding of EU law is that you should be able to get EU Green Card insurance anywhere in the EU, regardless of where the car is registered? I know there was some debate about this in my case (whether I could or couldn't buy it at the Russia/Latvia border with a UK-registered car) but I fronted up to the border and was sold it no problem.

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...ght=green+card

CornishDaddy 7 Apr 2009 13:26

Not helpful
 
I know this is not necessarily helpful, but I followed the instructions laid out, and sent a letter to the address given with all the relevant info.

I followed this up this week with a phone call to check it had been placed on file, and found there were no notes there, and no record of my letter!

I explained the situation and the woman was adamant that I should EXPORT the vehicle. She was a nice lady and listened to my argument, and said she would double check and ring back. She did and she says that they are 100% sure that this is the way to do it. When we return to the country we just have to contact them to re-inport it.

I didn't have enough knowedge or time to argue and hence we will do this. Not sure if we will pay a price at a later date....

JMo (& piglet) 7 Apr 2009 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by CornishDeity (Post 236718)

I explained the situation and the woman was adamant that I should EXPORT the vehicle. She was a nice lady and listened to my argument, and said she would double check and ring back. She did and she says that they are 100% sure that this is the way to do it. When we return to the country we just have to contact them to re-inport it.

That is utter nonsense! You are not 'permanently exporting' the vehicle, just using it away from this country for a while... filling in that paperwork is as bad (actually worse) than not filling it in at all?!

The UK government is hell-bent on gathering statistics and revenue, and paperwork shunting in a desperate attempt to keep the public sector employed...

Just because they don't have the correct tick box for the very few people who are able to travel away from the UK for an extended period, it all goes to sh!t - computer says no...

Personally I agree with what TonyP suggested in the first page - don't ask the DVLA anything! It's only going to cause you more hassle than you need...

xxx

Alexlebrit 7 Apr 2009 17:55

Feckin bureaucrats
 
Why can't they just make up a story (sorry their minds) and stick to it. It was all looking like there was an easy and quick way to do things in a fashion that satisfied the mindless ones and now this.

Because I've got too much time on my hands I've e-mailed the person who replied to me and Harley to see a) if he's still there and b) what's the story, morning glory.

We'll see what happens.

monster 7 Apr 2009 21:17

sorn
 
Hey Ollie,
We simply drove out of the country, said nothing, and when we got to Turkey we sent the SORN back to the UK.
Also did the same for our road tax but included a note explaining we were in Turkey and heading East plus asked for the refund cheque to be sent to a family member! No prob's.
When we got back we simply did the usual MOT, got insurance and filled out the SORN form that had come through in the post whilst we were away.
It wasn't an issue BUT that was last summer and things can change.
Hope this helps a little.
Dave:cool4:

Quincy 8 Apr 2009 14:08

I've been following this with interest but up to now didn't have anything worth posting. I had pretty much decided that I wouldn't bother actually dealing with the DVLA but would just SORN when my tax expired (soon after leaving u.k). However I have just been to get the SORN (V890) form and on it in bold it states 'this form cannot be used if the vehicle is temporarily out of the country'. It looks as though the DVLA have now made it explicit that the way for us to go is not to SORN.

Personally I'm not going to go through the nonsense of permanently exporting the vehicle, and I'm still not sure how effective putting a note on the file they hold will be, so I think I might just ignore the bold print, tax again before I leave to get me legally through Europe, and then SORN from there on. However I can now be sure that this is not really the right thing to be doing.

JMo (& piglet) 8 Apr 2009 16:25

Typically of this government, anything they can do (legal or not) to get you to keep paying regardless...

You only 'legally' need to pay your road fund licence if you are keeping and/or using the particular vehicle on the road - anything else is just a ruse to get you to keep paying the UK road tax, even if you are not bloody here using it!

As you've suggested, I would simply go ahead with your trip, and just SORN it when the times comes - there is nothing they can do (and they bloody know it, which is why they are desperately trying to confuse us with gobbledy gook).

Like I said above, the DVLA doesn't have a button for the very few of us who travel outside of this country for an extended period - enjoy it while you can, they'll probably think of even more ways to fleece us and restrict out movement at the same time...

This thread is going round and round... I may have to unsubscribe as it is beginning to upset me...

xxx

Alexlebrit 20 Apr 2009 17:29

Bugger !!!!!
 
So like I said I e-mail the DVLA again, specifically the person who contacted myself and Harley and this is the reply I got - see if you can make sense of it, I got a bit lost.

So in the light of this e-mail I'd like to propose a service to all you UK based long-term overlanders. Send the bit off to say you're permanently exporting the vehicle. Send me the V5 and all the bumph. I'll go register your vehicle in France. Then you won't have road tax, the MOT is only every two years and if you go abroad for longer you just MOT it when you get back.

Obviously there's certain costs involved, but hey it's a small price to pay for piece of mind isn't it :blushing:

Now admire the poor (original) formatting and think, this is where your taxes go......



Thank you for your email.
Firstly I would like to apologise that the advice you have previously received was inaccurate.
I should begin by explaining, since the 1st January 2004, the Continuous Registration legislation became effective. Under this legislation, the registered keeper of a vehicle is legally responsible for ensuring his/her vehicle is currently taxed or a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN) has been made at all times. Registered keepers will continue to be responsible for their vehicle until DVLA is notified that the vehicle has been scrapped, sold or exported, or unless a SORN has been made . Please note that as quoted in the Vehicles Registration and Licensing Regulations 2002, a SORN is only valid if the vehicle is kept off road in Great Britain or Northern Ireland.
If a vehicle is taken out of the country (for less than twelve months) but remains registered in Great Britain, the vehicle must be taxed.
If you have a V5C Registration Certificate and are registered as the keeper of the vehicle, you should take the document with you. If you do not have a V5C you should apply for one on V62* application form. The V62 should be returned to DVLA Swansea and will take between 20/30 working days to issue.
However, if you are in possession of the V5C/2 new keepers supplement the DVLA local office may be able to issue a V379/1 temporary Certificate of Registration to cover the period the vehicle is out of the country. The addresses of the DVLA local offices can be found on our website below. If you make your application in person to a Local Office you will also need to provide proof of identity e.g. Passport, Driving Licence or a Utilities Bill, which clearly shows your name and address, and also proof of purchase or Bill of Sale for the vehicle.
If your tax expires and you need to renew it while you are abroad, provided you have a V5C, you may apply for a new tax disc by post using the application V10. The application should be sent to one of the Post Offices® listed in the booklet V100 or to a DVLA local office. The V10 forms are available from the Post Office or can be downloaded from our website. The V100 booklets are available from DVLA or Post Offices. Your application can be made up to six weeks in advance. All applications will require original V5C, or, V5C/2.
However, if the V5/C or the V5C/2 is not available you can submit a V62* application form. Provided you are shown as current keeper on DVLA records or if the previous keeper has notified DVLA of the disposal of the vehicle. You will also need to provide the original Insurance Certificate/Cover Note and MOT Certificate documentation to your Local Office. If you give a despatch address abroad the tax disc of the vehicle can be sent to you there. Remember that it is in your interest to check with your insurer that your use abroad is properly covered. You will also need to fix GB plates on your vehicle to identify the country of registration.
*If you do not have a Registration Document/Certificate there will be a charge for replacement Vehicle Registration Certificates.(£25)

If you are the registered keeper of a vehicle you may also use our website to pay for your tax disc or call our dedicated phone number on 0870 850 4444.
The website address is
www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisc
You can use our website 24 hours per day, 7 days per week*. And within 5 working days of completing your application, you'll receive your tax disc by first class post.
When you retax on the Internet or by telephone we'll electronically check your vehicle is insured on the motor insurance database run by the Motor Insurers Information Centre.
If applicable, we'll also electronically check if your vehicle has a valid new style computerised Test Certificate (MOT/GVT) on the database run by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA)
All you need to do is follow the steps by quoting either the 16 digit reference number on your tax disc application/SORN form V11 or alternatively, you can quote the document reference number on your vehicle registration certificate (V5C)
*subject to essential maintenance.
I should explain, when taxing using our website or telephone service, the tax disc must be issued to the name and address on our records. Therefore, you would need to arrange for a friend or relative to have access to your UK address so the disc may be forwarded to you.
If you are unable to keep the vehicle tax valid whilst outside of the UK I can only advise that you return section 11 of the registration certificate to notify that the vehicle is no longer being kept in the UK. Please note that any tax disc application would be subject to the vehicle having a valid MOT test certificate (UK or northern Ireland only).
DVLA can not advise on what action, if any, may be taken by a foreign authority against an unlicensed UK registered vehicle.
As you can see from my response there is no definitive answer with regards to what should be done if a UK vehicle is kept outside of the UK for over 12 months and is not re-registered.
I trust my reply has been of some assistance.
Regards


Mr I Harris
Motoring : Directgov
[THREAD ID:1-1251GS]

-----Original Message-----
From: alex.richards@xxxxxxxx.fr
Sent: 07/04/2009 15:02:43
To: <vehicles.dvla@gtnet.gov.uk>
Subject: Taking a UK registered vehicle out of the UK for more than 12 months but not permanently registering it in another country.

Hello

I am currently planning a round the world overland trip by motorbike which will be for more than 12 months. I understand that usually this would mean I should send you the V5 document and you would send a Certificate of Permanent Export which is used to register the vehicle in another country.

HOWEVER, I will not be taking up residency in any of the countries I will be passing through and thus wouldn't be permitted to register the motorbike there even if I wanted to. Also I will need to keep the original V5 document intact to present to any border officials in the large number of countries I will be passing through. As you can appreciate a Certificate of Permanent Export would not suffice.

I have heard several different versions of what may or may not be possible and would very much like to clarify the situation. Several months ago I contacted you and received the following:
Thank you for your email.

You would not be able to make a SORN declaration with regard to your vehicle because it is out of the country. SORN can only be declared on a vehicle when it is laid up within the confines of the UK.


Because you would not be able to tax your vehicle nor declare it off road let alone permanently export it you would need to write a letter into us. It would be necessary for you to quote the registration number and for you to explain what you intend to do with the vehicle over the next couple of years or so. You can even ask for this correspondence to be placed on the vehicle record so that you are not bothered about any fines or penalties with regard to this vehicle.

The address to write or fax into is;
Vehicle Customer Services, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA.
Fax No. 01792 - 782378.

I hope that this information has clarified matters for you.
Regards
David S Evans
Motoring : Directgov


However a friend did precisely this several days ago and contacted you today to hear that no such notes had been put on file and was told that he should EXPORT the vehicle. Apparently the woman he spoke to was a nice lady and listened to the argument, and said she would double check and ring back. She did and she says that they are 100% sure that this is the way to do it. When he returns to the country he just has to contact them to re-import it.

As I shall shortly be leaving the UK, I'd very much like to verify precisely what I should do, as you can imagine I thought I had this sorted out, but it now appears I may have to do something entirely different. Also to have a definative reply would be very useful as I know of numerous people who have asked the same thing on several overland travellers' websites. Perhaps if some log could be made on your system and either a definative answer posted on your website, and also if possible a hard copy of the reply which could be distributed to the relevant motoring associations (only two after all).

Yours

Alex Richards




JMo (& piglet) 20 Apr 2009 17:44

The DVLA reply just goes to show what a bunch of beauraucratic money-grabbing bastards the UK government are... they bend (or just make new) rules to make sure they get as much money as they can - it is appalling.

Of course like so much of the legislation in the UK, it is essentially ineffectual or redundant - what actually happens on the ground is very different to what they hope will happen.

If you keep your V5 (which, as you say is a requirement to cross boarders etc), SORN your bike, and renew the SORN on-line when the time comes - How the fu*k are they going to find out anyway?

Road Tax is for vehicles used on UK roads, anything else is bullsh!t - they can't have their cake and eat it, and they sure as hell are not having any of mine!

xxx

ps. doesn't want to make me come home, that's for sure...

pps. they did the same thing with TV licences - 'continuous licencing' my arse... if you don't have a TV for a few years then buy one, why should you have paid a licence in the interim? It's up to them to prove you were watching TV, not for you to prove you weren't... and while we're on that theme - when did we allow the constitution to change from innocent until proven guilty?

grrrrr...

Tony P 20 Apr 2009 18:18

One step forward - two back.
 
as I said here on 13 December -
"Never NEVER NEVER ask the DVLA. The only people you get to speak to generally know nothing!"

I also said on the similar thread http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mot-road-32649 on 1 February 2008 -
"My own conclusion and own actions, ...
....is that, if I take it away for extended periods, I would SORN it as not being on UK public roads, either on departure or when a current tax expires, and renew the SORN a year later.

If they want to get 'arsey' I would demand they prosecute me (forget their fixed penalty money raising opportunities) and I will argue in any Court that my actions were reasonable and fair."


It's back to that for me for the timebeing.

Thanks for trying Alex.

Alexlebrit 21 Apr 2009 11:45

Bloody stupid system. Well I tried, I don't quite know why, but I did, I think it's because I loathe bureaucracy with a passion - hmm, maybe France isn't the right place for me to live.

But just to complete the circle I e-mail the Department for Transport, with copies of all the other e-mails. Let's see.

Only other thing I can think to do, and this is for you guys in the UK is to mail your MP. Usually they're pretty good at getting answers out of Govt departments, and if you've got an opposition MP you usually get better replies.

roamingyak 21 Apr 2009 15:55

"Only other thing I can think to do, and this is for you guys in the UK is to mail your MP. Usually they're pretty good at getting answers out of Govt departments, and if you've got an opposition MP you usually get better replies."

One of the problems with asking for a change is that the change may not be 100% in favour of those requesting it. In Holland people have to keep their vehicles taxed the whole time they are away, and it would be a backwards step if we achieved that as our answer.

The DVLA's answer is perhaps somewhat targeted to those who use British registered vehicles in Spain/France/Portugal for years without ever getting a MOT etc (which is perhaps part of the reason why the note appears on the V5). I don't think they really care about you having your vehicle in Chad for 2 years unless you really force them to produce an answer.

To me the system of SORNing works fine provided you get insurance before you set foot inside the EU and book the MOT for your day of arrival back in the UK (it won't be long, if not already, before DVLA cameras operate at all of the ports and frieght agents have to report license plates when importing?).

So whilst it is annoying to not have a proper answer/solution, there is a workable solution that I have used 4 times with minimal effort.

Alexlebrit 21 Apr 2009 20:41

And then they get you as you roll off the ferry.
 
Quote:

Police hunt law-breakers at port

Police were out in force at a Plymouth ferry port in an attempt to crack down on sea-faring criminals.
More than 100 vehicles were stopped coming off ferries at Millbay Docks during Operation Harmison on Friday...........(more)
So now it looks like you'll get a letter in the post with your fine, along with your welcome home cards

roamingyak 21 Apr 2009 20:51

There isn't much detail in the article, but it suggests if you have your insurance and are coming back with a passport full of visa's and a confirmed MOT appointment (have the full name and address of the MOT station to hand) then you would be ok.

A camera might pick you up and issue a fine, but you would get off appealing on the basis of your MOT certificate or fail sheet being correctly dated.

uk_vette 22 May 2009 22:21

Hello all,
I have a little input.
I left UK on May 1st 2008, for Norway, Norway is not EU.
I left UK with my vehicle having 1 month road tax, and 3 months MOT.
Just as the road tax expired, I did an 'on-line' SORN.
The following month the MOT was due, as my vehicle was now 3 years old.
As a note, in Norway, vehicles don't need their first MOT until 4 years old.
I still had the fully comp. insurance.

A week before I returned to UK, I booked a MOT at my local MOT station, the same one I had been using for the past 10 years or more.
When I arrived at Harwich, I drove the 200 miles to the local MOT station for my 16:00 appointment time that day.
I then drove home.
I actually dropped the vehicle at the MOT, and walked home, a full 5 minutes !
Mr. MOT called me in about an hour, I gave him £40.00 and he gave me a brand new MOT.
I did the 'on-line' vehicle taxing, when I got home, no problems.

I was out of UK for more than 12 months.
The only thing I was not happy with, was buying a tax disc half way through the month.
Why can't they have these starting from specific dates, beats me.


'vette

kayamtom 3 Jun 2009 23:28

Hi, not sure if this will help but my boyfriend and I will be out of the country for 16 months or so and are planning to MOT the car just before leaving in Dec, the tax will run out 6months into the trip but you can get a tax disc sent to you abroad and the MOT is still valid then so that gives us another years tax 6months into the trip. We'll book the MOT when heading back to UK or just off the ferry etc.. Not sure how long you're planning on being away for?

Jemma

grizzly7 15 Oct 2009 15:12

Just a thought; is the V5 the whole A3 thing? Many people laminate copies for travel, do they only do the A4 side with details on? And this is usually acceptable? The permanently export section is on the other side with tear off strips for sale/sorn/scrap etc, so if you did export you could still keep the details side to use abroad?

Our vehicle was permanently exported by the previous owners for a trip of several years. On their return, they had a garage collect it from the dock on trade plates, and was stored with them to be mot'd and put up for sale. The only complication was the tax disc, since the vehicle didn't have a previous one as a "new" import the taxing could only be done at a DVLA office.

Enquiries over the last month about our extended trip confirms that permanent export is still the only 12month plus option as far as the DVLA are concerned, SORN only applies to a vehicle in the UK, and cannot be done unless you are in the UK! Their advice is to contact them in the port on disembarkation if you arrive with no MOT (or appointment for one) to SORN!

Thefastone 17 Dec 2009 18:25

Hi Alex,
I often leave a bike in spain but have to bring it back to ripoff britain for the paperwork. how does reg in france work, as give 2 fingers to the dvla would be a bit nice
steve

Harry Bohun 17 Dec 2009 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeS (Post 222604)
I'd say the chances of getting stopped between the ferry port and your home on the return journey from a trip is miniscule in the UK these days!

Fixed ANPR cameras on every major motorway now - the chance of being caught is very high I am afraid.

Hustler 17 Dec 2009 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thefastone (Post 268325)
Hi Alex,
I often leave a bike in spain but have to bring it back to ripoff britain for the paperwork. how does reg in france work, as give 2 fingers to the dvla would be a bit nice
steve

We moved from the Uk to la belle France a couple of years ago and I bought a couple of UK registered bikes with me and re-registered them here.
In my experience you will need a French address and my BMW was relatively straightforward to re-register but my Hornet was a bit of a nightmare.
It's a bit of a lottery really.
Both bikes took a couple of months waiting for paperwork and getting them tested and registered.
Yes I saved quite a lot of money although there was a chunk of money for headlights and re-registration and on balance I'm not sure I'd do it again.

bobrayner 24 Dec 2009 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogerM (Post 218899)
Yep, here we go again.

Trouble is that when you de register your vehicle in the UK, to comply with the law in practically every country that you visit it must be registered. Your Green Card insurance or legal minimum insurance (EU) will be invalid as soon as you de register.

Within the Vienna Convention countries its an absolute must to have current vehicle registration to be legal and comply with the international treaty that allows free(ish) movement of vehicles - and a lot of coppers and border guards KNOW what a UK tax disc looks like, as well as the uniform registration documents. Its even harder for UK residents as so many people speak and read English and can easily read a UK V5.

Vienna Convention summary;
"The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration.

The driver must carry the vehicle's registration certificate, and if the vehicle is not registered in the name of an occupant of the vehicle, proof of the driver's right to be in possession of the vehicle."

In practice, once you're off the beaten track (presumably most people on the HUBB are not just planning to drive around the EU), local officials do not know exactly what the source-country document should look like. Nobody outside the UK has ever looked at my tax disc or MOT, certainly not in Africa - it's more common that somebody asks me for the "carte grise", raises an eyebrow when they see that I've given them a totally different document to what they usually handle, then they get on with filling in forms and rubber-stamping.

Even in the EU I've been asked for my card license dozens of times (by vehicle rental agencies &c) but nobody has ever asked to see the paper counterpart. It's meaningless to them; it's a UK-specific piece of paper.

If you tell the DVLA you've exported or SORN'd your vehicle, you still have the V5. What, do you think, are the chances that an Algerian or Peruvian or Iranian border official will read the V5, and phone a foreign government agency to verify that a vehicle would still be road-legal in a different country? (hint: you'd have to translate the term "SORN" for them first, give them a phone, and tell them the DVLA's number).

Turn it the other way round. Imagine you're an official in the UK and you do a routine stop (maybe a border check) on a foreign motorist. They hand you a couple of official-looking documents which you've never seen before. Maybe one of them is laminated or has a rubber stamp on it. The documents are written in a foreign language and seem to have been issued by an acronym-agency in another country. There is no phone number for the agency on the document, and anyway you don't speak that language well (or at all). Your official instructions are that any paperwork valid in the source country should be accepted here. What would you do next?

JMo (& piglet) 24 Dec 2009 16:21

I can't believe I'm still subscribed to this thread...

To reiterate my previous post/s - since UK Road Fund Licence is only legally required if a UK registered vehicle* is kept or used on UK roads... anything else they tell you is bullsh!t in a lame attempt to prop up the threadbare government coffers...

If you want to pay anything between £100 and £400 a year to the government while you are away traveling, and renew your road tax on-line go ahead... or, you can SORN your vehicle, and re-SORN it on line, and pay them nothing.

The only paperwork foreign police or boarder controls are interested in is your vehicle ownership papers (eg. British V5) and most importantly, Insurance.

As long as you have both of those with you (either originals, photocopies, laminates or whatever), noone is going to give you any hassle if you are passing through their boarder/country.

I'm off to enjoy Christmas now, even though this year I'm stuck in this officious bureaucratic nightmare that the UK has become...

Toot toot!

xxx

*personally I think the government is trying to make up the shortfall in roadtax they can't collect from the thousands of foreign registered vehicles that use our roads everyday, by stitching up their own citizens - like so much else in the country...

palace15 24 Dec 2009 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) (Post 269061)
I can't believe I'm still subscribed to this thread...

To reiterate my previous post/s - since UK Road Fund Licence is only legally required if a UK registered vehicle* is kept or used on UK roads... anything else they tell you is bullsh!t in a lame attempt to prop up the threadbare government coffers...

If you want to pay anything between £100 and £400 a year to the government while you are away traveling, and renew your road tax on-line go ahead... or, you can SORN your vehicle, and re-SORN it on line, and pay them nothing.

The only paperwork foreign police or boarder controls are interested in is your vehicle ownership papers (eg. British V5) and most importantly, Insurance.

As long as you have both of those with you (either originals, photocopies, laminates or whatever), noone is going to give you any hassle if you are passing through their boarder/country.

I'm off to enjoy Christmas now, even though this year I'm stuck in this officious bureaucratic nightmare that the UK has become...

Toot toot!

xxx

*personally I think the government is trying to make up the shortfall in roadtax they can't collect from the thousands of foreign registered vehicles that use our roads everyday, by stitching up their own citizens - like so much else in the country...

Well said Jen, I am so pleased to see you put your fingers to keyboard for free on this site, I was thinking that you now required payment for articles!!
:rofl: Happy Christmas and New Year xx

rockinrom 7 Jan 2010 02:02

Ex Pat, road tax, mot, insurance etc.
 
Having completed my "44 years" we decided that the time had come to get some sun into our old bones, and move to Spain.
Having lived here for two and a half years, we have discovered that things are not always as easy as you might imagine, but that the "pros" far outweigh the "cons".
The intention was, to drop off the edge of the world, no one would know where you were, do what you like (legally) no more tax-man, no more bloody T.V. licence, no more road tax, etc etc.

Although Spain is still very laidback, no one should make the mistake of thinking of Spanish police as being thick or inefficient, no one likes a "paperchase" or a roadside check, more than a bored spanish copper, with not a lot to do out of season, with the holiday visitors long gone.

They are always super polite, but they carry a big stick, and a gun!

First thing you learn is that Spain is the biggest rumour-mill you could image, and the older expats are the worst, so what follows is purely what I know, and how we have handled things for driving in Spain. (At last you say)

The reason for this post is that I saw on a previous posting, a comment about ex-pats with English vehicles with no tax, no mot, and no insurance.

Assuming you can use an English address, I registered both cars to my sister's house, DVLA will only send SORN reminders to the registered address in England.

This what we did, got the cat a pet passport (there's a rip-off £240!! More later). SORNED the two cars, hooked up the trailer and drove to Spain, it really was as easy as that!

Once in Spain the insurance on one vehicle ran out, so we insured it here, no problem at all, we told them that we had come here to live, and that it was an English car, and we had no intention of registering it in Spain (very expensive, more than the cars worth) they were happy with that, and said that as far as the insurance was concerned, it was all legal. Cost 200 euros, which included breakdown cover any where in EU, as it is completely illegal to tow any vehicle any distance in Spain, so all insurance covers breakdown.
It is also like the American style of insurance, where it is the car that's covered, not the driver, anyone over 23 with a valid licence is covered to drive my vehicle, which cuts down on the uninsured driver problem.

Next thing to come up was the MOT, unlike England, where it is TOTALLY impossible to get a test done on anything but an English car, the computer throws out anything but an English number, (thirty years in the business) in Spain you can get the MOT (ITV) done with no problem, just book it in, and turn up at the appointed hour, they are not at all thrown by the headlights with stickers on, or the different number plate style. Don't make the mistake of thinking it's going to be easier than in the UK, IT'S NOT, it's the same as England with emissions tested etc. but with the addition of a "shaker plate" where you think it's going to fall apart!

We now have a vehicle that is insured and tested in Spain, and is legal as far as the the authorities are concerned, but this is where I think the DVLA are really a bit slow, with an estimated 80000 cars here at any one time, with insurance details posted on the MID, so easy to check, they will not accept the Spanish MOT as valid, and it's therefore impossible to get the vehicle taxed, and become totally "legal in its country of origine" which is really what the Spanish want.

I realise that there are flaws to all this, things like after 3 months, you should, by law, become a resident, which you don't, because you lose your NHS service in the UK, and the free NHS in Spain doesn't kick in 'till you become a pensioner, and the fact that you are not allowed to keep an English vehicle in Spain for more than 183 days in any one year!

As my fiscal advisor (Gestor) which you have to have if you own property here, says "Who's looking and who's counting?"

The point of all this is to say, that it must'nt be assumed that all expats you see out here are all irrisponsible just because you don't see a tax disc in their screen, I for one would never drive an uninsured vehicle, it's not fair on everyone else, and Spanish jails can be a bit grim!

Partly given in, and got a Spanish car! Tax, which goes on the house, not the car, so no tax disc, 70 euros a year.

Just a point on the permanant export debate, my best mate, hairy biker Big Tell really fell out of bed over this, thought he would get away from all this SORN stuff, and PE his 750 Yam, not register it, but just MOT it and insure it as he does'nt use it much, and it costs about 750 euros to register it in Spain, which he has'nt got to spare. Testing it was not a problem, but when he tried to insure it, he was told that it was impossible to insure, as it now didn't "belong" anywhere, and so was unusable anywhere, certainly in EU! Furthermore to re-register it back in the UK, it first had to have an English MOT! Do you see a problem emerging here? How do you get an uninsurable bike back to the UK from Paradise?

You pay someone loads-a-money to transport it!

So think on!

Life's good.

Oh,yes the cat! Just a tip, if you want to export your pet with you when you move down here, and I know you will, IF YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF RETURNING TO THE U.K. All you need is a chip implanted (£30) no jabs, no nothing else, you only need the passport (total £240) if you are planning to come back at any time, and let's face why would you?

Oh, yes, the "pros", well, it's 02.42.Spanish time, and I'm sittting in my shorts, indoors, no heating on, and it's 20c, went round to friends today for a lunchtime BBQ. Christmas morning on the beach with her indoors having her Christmas swim in the Med. Etc.etc.

Regards, Another day in paradise.

Alexlebrit 7 Jan 2010 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by rockinrom (Post 270597)
The reason for this post is that I saw on a previous posting, a comment about ex-pats with English vehicles with no tax, no mot, and no insurance.

Oh, that was me wasn't it? See you've made just the type of ex-pat post I was talking about, and it's one that's littered across the ex-pat forums on the web, for just about any country in Europe. I don't want to wee on your beachside barbeque but I'm going to because you've fallen into the trap. Enjoy your piss-flavoured sausages.

Before I go any further, sorry to everyone who just wants to find out how to legally drive/ride to Hanoi, or Tierra del Fuego, the DVLA's crap, and puts everyone in a crap situation of having to be outside the law, by their narrow definition, and the legislation provides no solution for an admitted minority, who'd rather have a decent answer, to a simple question.

Back to Spain: you've successfully insured and MOT'ed your vehicle, you can do just the same thing in France. The insurers didn't have a problem and the MOT centre was OK with the stickers. You're fine. Then you have an accident, your fault or not. Suddenly the insurers aren't fine, their legal department says "Hang on, this car's got funny numberplates." And they send you a nice letter explaining how on page 47, paragraph 6, subsection 3, in tiny writing, in Spanish it tells you that your car isn't insured because it's not registered in Spain.

Ah you think it's OK because, I'm not really resident in Spain:

Quote:

As my fiscal advisor (Gestor) which you have to have if you own property here, says "Who's looking and who's counting?"
Who's counting? Suddenly everyone is, and your paper trail lets you down. The insurers show you've been insuring with them for two years, the MOT centre issued you with a document two years ago.

The tax-man shows you're tax-registered in Spain. You have registered for tax? You must have some kind of income, even if it's bank interest. You're not taking a little bit of cash in hand here and there?

"I pay my tax in the UK, I'm still a UK resident" you say.

Then why isn't the car complying with UK regulations. The DVLA shows your car hasn't been SORN-ed for years, but wait, what was the car doing having an accident in Spain when it's been SORN-ed at a UK address?

So now you're up a certain creek with no means of locomotion. You're driving an un-taxed, un-MOT-ed, uninsured vehicle and that bored, but polite policeman is calling you into his office where he's not so bored and not so polite. He's looking through your papers, he's asking for proof, and the only proof you can give him makes your situation worse. Where do you live? Where is your money to live on coming from? Where are you getting your healthcare? Where are you paying your taxes?

As one of those ex-pats I've seen it, done some of it, and luckily avoided the T-shirt. I've read the horror stories and right now, as a court-appointed translator I'm interpreting for some ex-pats in France who've got themselves into precisely this situation, and are now looking at fines they cannot pay, back-tax they cannot afford, and the possibility of spending some time in government provided housing, where they don't let you nip down the beach for a swim.

Oh,yes the cat! You were right about that bit (although they might have to find him a new home soon).

Feel free to ignore every word of this post, I'm just some 40-year old ex-pat with too much time on their hands,. Just ask yourself, who is saying your car is legal in Spain? An insurance agent and an MOT tester. Then ask yourself, in the UK would you take legal advice from someone in a Direct Line call centre or an MOT Test centre under the arches?

huwandrosie 23 Feb 2010 12:41

Update on this!

Genius Paul Gowan at the RAC has recently made an agreement with the DVLA. Email him at carnets@rac.co.uk and ask him to send you his standard template letter and to explain the very simple process.

What do you get out of it? A letter on DVLA headed paper explaining that your vehicle has been exported and that your record at the DVLA has been 'closed' i.e. frozen i.e. you won't be subject to any fees or nasty repurcussions during/after your journey... apparently! We'll be testing this method so watch this space.

Tony P 24 Feb 2010 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by huwandrosie (Post 277879)
Genius Paul Gowan at the RAC has recently made an agreement with the DVLA. Email him at carnets@rac.co.uk and ask him to send you his standard template letter and to explain the very simple process.

Good news.
I hope it is not another DVLA ruling that they promptly rescind when they reralise they cannot collect Penalties for failing to re-SORN.

It presumably addresses the hoary DVLA chestnut of attempting to make British vehicles pay the British Government to use roads, that are free to every other road user in the World, in foreign countries outside their jurisdiction! (And insist they have a MOT where they are not required locally - or even available!)

Perhaps Paul could post his explanation and template letter here (I know he reads threads on this topic) to save having to repeat it many times.

BruceP 9 Mar 2010 09:30

has anyone had any luck emailing Paul, I emailed him 2 weeks ago and have heard nothing.

p_jm 19 Mar 2010 16:14

no mot and road tax abroad
 
I have followed all the posts, here and on other websites. Seems to me that the key thing is whether you are still validly insured abroad, if you don't have mot or road tax. That is just not worth risking. Anyone know the answer? And in that case do you inform your insurer that you have SORNed your vehicle but are driving it abroad?

BruceP 20 Mar 2010 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_jm (Post 281469)
I have followed all the posts, here and on other websites. Seems to me that the key thing is whether you are still validly insured abroad, if you don't have mot or road tax. That is just not worth risking. Anyone know the answer? And in that case do you inform your insurer that you have SORNed your vehicle but are driving it abroad?

A lot depends on what you mean by "abroad", if it is within Europe (and a few Europeaan based countries like Norway/Finland/Sweden), then your UK insurance will generally cover you for 3rd party. But, those countries law enforcement officers will want to see your bike being taxed and MOT'd (IME). However, not having MOT or Tax does not usually invalidate insurance (but they may argue the toss a bit ).

Outside of Europe your UK insurance will not be in valid, you need to get insurance for what ever country you visit, sometimes at the border (if available). Insurance in the USA is available via the MotorcycleExpress link.

The SORN thing is just the DVLA being a PITA, if you are going to be out of Europe when your tax is due, they will want it or a SORN. I have come around to thinking that it is worth while making sure your bike is taxed while out of the country if going for less than 12 months (ie, cash in current and get a fresh 12 month one.

MOT is a different matter, if you have a document with a valid MOT it may well impress foreign cops, if not *don't* show it.

When you get back to the UK, book the bike in for an MOT, and it dos not need to be the nearest to port of entry, just within reach of that days ride.

HTH

ilesmark 22 Mar 2010 12:56

Sorry to be pernickety, but it is probably better to have the MOT prebooked BEFORE setting tyre on UK soil.

BruceP 23 Mar 2010 10:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilesmark (Post 281834)
Sorry to be pernickety, but it is probably better to have the MOT prebooked BEFORE setting tyre on UK soil.

Actually, I don't agree as an MOT can be booked at any time, but if you want to be pernickety, then it is better to have the MOT pre-booked before your bike leaves the airport/port :-P

CornishDaddy 26 Mar 2010 02:47

Almost 1 year on we're now at the other end of this issue. Following the advice from our nice lady at the DVLA we exported the car; right or wrong, that's where we are.

The insurance problem didn't really bother us for the majority of the trip as we didn't spend that long in Europe and we were still insured from the UK up to Turkey (or so we thought, the "small print" comment is probably true). Once outside Europe, we figured that any insurance wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on and we would be much better off paying our way out of a situation. This in fact only happened once (in Pakistan) where we shelled out a grand total of 30 quid to a guy whose car we crumpled. This was obviously our call and a lot of people thought we were mad (scare stories about the cost of lorries in India and the like) but that was our decision.

We kept the V5C form so there was no problems with border crossings and the like - as it's perpetual there's no expiry date. We removed the tax disc from the car as soon as it expired.

Now we are in Australia and planning to stay here for at least a year, the situation has shifted slightly. There's no buying your way out of trouble here; medical bills and posh cars see to that. The laws vary from state to state, but in NSW the official line for temporarily imported vehicles (i.e. vehicles under a carnet) is that they are automatically covered for medical bills insurance - no extra policies need to be taken out. BUT this only applies if your vehicle is legally registered in its country of origin.. AH! So now we really are stuck in a catch 22 - we are cannot register the car here as we are under a carnet, but we are not registered at home as we were told to export.... so we are not insured and have no hope of getting any insurance.

I would love for someone to tell me that I'm completely wrong, but I think that might be wishful thinking!

I would also love to find out more about Paul's discussions with the DVLA to see if there's any way to retrospectively solve this problem; more wishful thinking?!

So Paul, if you're there, I know this is not your problem and really nothing to do with your job description, but any new info you have would be very gratefully received!!!

Jenny, aka Mrs. Deity

ilesmark 26 Mar 2010 11:38

Jenny - is the MoT still current on Dino, by any remote chance? If it is, there is a possible solution.

BruceP - I stand by my advice. Having the MoT prebooked before you get to the UK avoids any issues with arriving at the airport/ferry port and then phoning up your MoT place only to get told "oh, sorry - we're fully booked up today - we can fit you in next week?"

Not sure what the letter of the law says on this, but I would imagine it's better to be able to say to PC Plod, if you are stopped, that the pre-booked MoT you are on your way to is for that day and not x days in the future.

ilesmark 26 Mar 2010 12:19

Been thinking about this some more. I asked about whether you still had the MOT because, if by any chance the MOT was still current from when you left the UK (which was less than a year ago) then you could declare the car reimported and then use the still-current MoT to get road tax/insurance on it from abroad without having to bring it back to the UK to get it re-MOT'd, which is obviously a huge huge sticking point.

But - if the MoT is expired - the definition of 'registration' varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, doesn't it? In UK-speak, a UK-registered car is still legally UK-registered even if it is SORN'd, with no MOT or road tax, unless/until it is scrapped or exported. Contrast this with a place like Australia or Germany, where rego is something you have to pay every 6 months and the vehicle loses its registration if it is not renewed.

I am wondering whether you might be able to think about relying on the UK definition of 'legally registered in its country of origin' ie declare the car reimported to the UK and then immediately SORN it, before taking out NSW insurance.

BruceP 26 Mar 2010 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilesmark (Post 282503)
Jenny - is the MoT still current on Dino, by any remote chance? If it is, there is a possible solution.

BruceP - I stand by my advice. Having the MoT prebooked before you get to the UK avoids any issues with arriving at the airport/ferry port and then phoning up your MoT place only to get told "oh, sorry - we're fully booked up today - we can fit you in next week?"

Not sure what the letter of the law says on this, but I would imagine it's better to be able to say to PC Plod, if you are stopped, that the pre-booked MoT you are on your way to is for that day and not x days in the future.

We did this recently on the UKRM news group, you can only be travelling to your MOT that day, and there is no restriction on the MOT shop being nearest the airport/port, if you live in Newcastle and pick up the bike early in the morning at Heathrow, you could conceivably book in for 16:30 and be ok legally.

But, yes, I was only joking about not making the appointment before picking the bike up :-)

CornishDaddy 27 Mar 2010 01:20

Mark - nice idea but our MOT has expired so no joy there.

One of the garages here suggested that I speak to a "friendly" garage in the UK who would issue a new MOT... oh how nice that would be!!!

panhandle1300 28 Mar 2010 02:24

Hi,
We have had to break our trip and return to the UK for various reasons, not least sorting out the DVLA fine for not taxing/sorning or exporting my bike.
Have been on the phone to them and got the standard reply "it should be permanetly exported". I was going to fight this as far as possible but I think I will more than likely end up mucho out of pocket at the end of it. So, my only option it seems is to export, does anyone know what problems I can expect to encounter regarding entering other countries with a homeless bike? US and Canada especially.
Thanks

ilesmark 28 Mar 2010 10:17

Ollie - no, no - read the second 2 paras of my post again.

If you have no MOT, I am suggesting you may be able to satisfy the NSW rules that state the vehicle should be 'legally registered in its country of origin' by relying on the UK definition of 'legally registered' ie revive your DVLA registration by declaring the car reimported to the UK and then immediately SORN it, before taking out NSW insurance.

everywherevirtually 31 May 2010 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by CornishDeity (Post 236718)
She was a nice lady and listened to my argument, and said she would double check and ring back. She did and she says that they are 100% sure that this is the way to do it. When we return to the country we just have to contact them to re-inport it.

Not sure if we will pay a price at a later date....

Unfortunately there was plenty of wise advice from TonyP, JMO (& Piglet) as well as others that said the best course of action would be to say nothing to the DVLA and just SORN it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMo (& piglet) (Post 236740)
That is utter nonsense! You are not 'permanently exporting' the vehicle, just using it away from this country for a while... filling in that paperwork is as bad (actually worse) than not filling it in at all?!

Personally I agree with what TonyP suggested in the first page - don't ask the DVLA anything! It's only going to cause you more hassle than you need...

xxx

She is quite right

Quote:

Originally Posted by CornishDeity (Post 282472)
Almost 1 year on we're now at the other end of this issue.

BUT this only applies if your vehicle is legally registered in its country of origin.. AH! So now we really are stuck in a catch 22 - we are cannot register the car here as we are under a carnet, but we are not registered at home as we were told to export.... so we are not insured and have no hope of getting any insurance.

I would love for someone to tell me that I'm completely wrong, but I think that might be wishful thinking!

I would also love to find out more about Paul's discussions with the DVLA to see if there's any way to retrospectively solve this problem; more wishful thinking?!

So Paul, if you're there, I know this is not your problem and really nothing to do with your job description, but any new info you have would be very gratefully received!!!

Jenny, aka Mrs. Deity

Sadly you are now paying the price of volunteering information to the nice lady at the DVLA who has now royally shafted you. I think there is a lesson here in not offering information to Bureaucrats. I dare say you also paid for a years worth of UK road fund (Tax) license even though you were not actually on UK roads :rolleyes:

Like I said I am not taking delight in your predicament but many will say "I told you so".

roblaan 8 Sep 2010 13:56

Anybody knows the latest word on carnets in South America?
 
Hi there,
Can anybody assure me that I don't need a Carnet de Passage in the whole of South America? What's the latest word on that? The Dutch and German automobile-associations ANWB and ADAC still insist I need one.

My bike will arrive by boat in Cartagena around nov.1st. Without a Carnet, should I just step up to the DIAN-office and ask for a temporary import-permit? Can someone help me out. I'm starting to get confused, I read too many different experiences on the internet.

Cheers,
Rob

garmei 8 Sep 2010 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by roblaan (Post 304659)
Hi there,
Can anybody assure me that I don't need a Carnet de Passage in the whole of South America? What's the latest word on that? The Dutch and German automobile-associations ANWB and ADAC still insist I need one.

My bike will arrive by boat in Cartagena around nov.1st. Without a Carnet, should I just step up to the DIAN-office and ask for a temporary import-permit? Can someone help me out. I'm starting to get confused, I read too many different experiences on the internet.

Cheers,
Rob

No requirement for Carnet in all of the Americas.
(REad the trip planning and paperwork page in the menu on the left of the HUBB page if you need evidence for peace of mind).

Good luck

roblaan 8 Sep 2010 15:09

Carnet / temporary import
 
Thanks, read that. Just checking because the info on South America in that thread is already almost 2 years old.

If anybody can give me an answer to the second part of my question it will be much appreciated.

pheasantplucker 4 Oct 2010 01:03

Hi all, i am new to the forum, this is my first post, sorry if i should be in the introduction section?

I came to the site via a google search "Tax and MoT when overseas" so until i find my way around i kept this page open.

I don't have a bike either! but can ride one!

I do have a 4x4 and a Caravan ~ please don't hate me, some of us caravanners DO think bike you know!

so ~ I have read all of this thread ~ gosh, how the DVLA like to play!

I am a brit, drove down from the UK to North Africa in Nov 2009.

hopefully will be starting the trip "Home" in a few weeks.

I also have a toyota celica which is parked up on my daughters driveway and is dutifully SORN'd, my son was using her until he went to france so he SORN'd her before he went.

but my 4x4 ~ tax expired a while ago, Mot expired more recently.

i have JUST this week recived post re routed to me out here, from the DVLA, i have an £80 fine for not sorning or taxing!!!

I have replied to them and am sending the lettr back via a tourist who can then post it in the UK for me, i have enclosed my passport which chearly shows the stamp of my date of entry, and the vehicle reg number written on the entry stamp, and also the words "+ caravan".

I said in the letter i didn't sorn because its not off road in the UK, not taxed as not able to out here, and will be out of the UK a little while longer!

the chances of me being out of the UK under 12 months are looking grim!

but i did state to the DVLA that i don't want permenant export, as within the 12 months i will be in italy. i have given the DVLA a UK address to reply to and asked them to keep the £80 fine until i getback and they decide under what part of the V5 (copy sent to them) they would have liked.

the reason i won't be going directly back to the UK is that i have 2 cats with me and they are effectively "doing quarantine" in italy and france, once that is OK I will return to the UK.

However, within the 12 months of leaving the UK I will enter Italy!

didn't plan to be away so long but things happen ~

I had read that if i get an MoT booked and can show that to customs or police i should be OK to drive, as i still have insurance although invalid as i am not in the UK.

I don't know at the moment if I will stay in italy for a while or head to france, as my son is there it seems logical to head towards him and nearer "home"?

I have to pay tax before I leave here and no doubt that will not the procedure i have been told,

I am hoping that i don't have an issue in italy, about the expired tax and now MoT,

as I have read through this thread ~ I don't seem to quite fit in any of the categories ~ my husband will be travelling with me, he is a visa national, but will be travelling with an EU family visa, for him to enter the UK he will need an EU country's residence card, which he can only get if i become a resident which is easy as I qualify from day one in italy ~ as I said I don't know if i will stay in italy or just head for france, but will have to get a residence certificate form whichever, lets say france as its most likely going to be, i could eave hubby and cats in france and head back to the UK and get MoT?

or am i better to get the equivient french documents?

i will be in france a maximum of 6 months i would think ~ so my 4x4 will fall under "PE"?

any advice details of documents procedures in france would be greatly appreciated as would any info on if i will get scrutinised arriving off the ferry in italy?

on the way out to North Africa, i pulled into dover port, got my ticket (prepaid online) had my passport glanced at and never saw customs again until North Africa!

even at the ferry port of genoa i only showed my passport to pick up my ticked again pre paid, and boarding pass and number of the deck to park the truck and caravan.

is it likely to be that easy coming INTO italy?

thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any replies and assistance.

im gonna go navigate around now and find out more about HUBB!

panhandle1300 4 Oct 2010 01:58

No win
 
We had to break our trip and come back to UK for various reasons and were greeted with two fines for £80 apiece and recovery agents put on our case. One fine for the bike we are using for the trip and one for the mrs's bike left at home. After many phone calls to DVLA we realised we weren't going to have any joy, they have the line drawn and that is it as far as they are concerned. If you're out of UK for less than 12 months then your vehicle needs to be taxed, insured and a current MOT if applicable. Out of UK for more than 12 months then the vehicle has to be permanently exported, though to do this I believe that you need a permanent place of residence in another country ... duh, I'm travelling. There is no provision for people who are on extended trips outside of the UK so we are basically being forced by DVLA to commit an offence in one way or another. :thumbdown:

pheasantplucker 4 Oct 2010 10:14

thank you, as i had read through the posts, i came to the conclusion travelling falls through the cracks,

all i can do is get some paperwork when i get to the EU and try and sort it out when i get back to the UK.

because I am married to a North African i do have a residence card here, and will be paying tax here, and i will be able to get residence status in France or italy so i guess i will comply with their regulations and see how it all works out in the end.

grizzly7 4 Oct 2010 16:46

I think I would be right in saying for an EU car to be legal in Europe it has to be legal in the home country. For a UK car that means an MOT.

The French Control Technique is bi-annual and although may well be similar obviously isn't identical.

Do you think if you were pulled in the UK on UK number plates by the police for instance that a French bit of paper would be acceptable to them? They wouldn't know what it was, but they can check easily themselves if you have an MOT. Roadsides cameras can too, so you can be fined on your way home without actually seeing anyone.

If you did annually SORN it then you could I suppose stay touring in Europe for a few years. The only sticking point there is your insurance. Some may specifically insist on an MOT, some may just say it must be roadworthy. Then you would need to book an MOT for your day of return to the UK and un-sorn it, the DVLA telling me I can't do it while abroad, but can't do it on the road, so I can only do it in the ferry disembarkation area! Have they heard of the internet?!?!

robinhelen 4 Oct 2010 17:28

I believe there is still no controle technique in France for bikes, so if stopped there is no interest in an MOT or CT certificate. There is also no road tax in France.
So a UK registered bike with no tax or MOT, an insurance company who states that they have no requirement for an MOT on the bike and it is SORNed is on a pretty safe bet in France...... I hope!
I book in for an MOT in Dover before leaving France when I go back to blighty and proceed directly to the Post office (on foot) for tax after the MOT. I am on the road in UK driving to a booked MOT at the closest point of arrival with no tax disc, what more can I do?

Tony P 4 Oct 2010 22:41

Same old merry-go-round.
 
As it may have got buried in nearly 90 posts above, I repeat the situation as I have researched it (and it is not what DVLA try to tell you), –

Road Tax. Actually the Road Fund License, but the term Tax is expedient for this explanation. This is required only for UK Registered Vehicles using UK roads. The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says this is necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as, “in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a road which is repairable at the public expense”. In Scotland the definition is slightly different due to differing set-ups.
There is no definition of a ‘public road’ in France, Russia or the Moon.
Thus if a UK registered Vehicle is not used on a UK Public Road, Road Tax is not required. END OF MATTER!
DVLA will try to tell you, as do the DirectGov websites, you need tax while abroad - until you ask for the definitive legislation, and after having quoted the above Act to them they just mumble and quickly change the topic.

MOT. UK registered vehicles over a certain age (generally 3 years) requires an annual Certificate before it can be further used on the UK Public Roads. It is also needed to purchase Road Tax. There is an exemption in that it is permitted to use the Public Roads without a current MOT or Tax if taking the vehicle to and from a PRE-BOOKED MOT Inspection.. There is no requirement that it is booked at a Test Centre near your home, your point of entry or anywhere else – just as long as it is booked and you are reasonably on the route towards wherever you booked it for, from wherever you were. For example, returning to UK via the English Channel to the north of England – as long as the Test is booked before you get onto the roads at Dover and you are somewhere between the two (even stopping the night) you are within the Act.
With the proliferation of ANPR cameras (even now on most Police patrol cars in some areas) expect to be stopped – but if you have the details of the appointment, which they can have checked out later, you will be OK other than the bother of being suspected of being anything but a law abiding HUBBer!

Insurance. MOT is NOT generally a requirement of Insurers. Therefore not having an MOT will not mean you are uninsured. However they will look very dimly at a claim and seek to reject it, if it arose from an accident in some way due to the slightest mechanical deficiency that would have been apparent at a MOT inspection. They also ask to see the MOT following a claim, partly to try to find ways to ‘wriggle’ out of the claim and partly to confirm mileage (= value).

SORN. Here comes Catch 22! When the Road Tax of a UK registered vehicle expires (or is surrendered for refund) The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) regulations 2002 state it must be declared ‘Off road’ with SORN. The Regulations continue that the vehicle must still be in the UK to be eligible to be SORNed, although it will not of course be on a Public Road. The SORN must be renewed every year unless or until Road Tax is bought or the vehicle scrapped or permanently exported.

Abroad. As above the DVLA and DirectGov websites state they want you to pay them to use roads in other countries (even if there is no local road tax for the locals to pay!) but, as above, that is not supported by The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994.
Under the Geneva Treaties, travellers in private vehicles are entitled to use them, for visits of up to 6 months each, in other country (which have similarly signed the Treaties) temporarily without payment of local Customs Import duties and without modification to make the vehicle comply with local Construction rules - provided the vehicle fully complies with its ‘home’ Construction and Use Regulations and local Customs Duties paid in the country of registration and the registration continues. Note: Customs Duties do not include the Road Tax/ Road Fund License.
The EU, at times considering itself to be a single power, tries to introduce its own version of ‘international’ laws, even if in conflict with the Geneva Treaties which its member states have agreed individually (for example, those blue bits on number plates – the Geneva Treaties still require white oval GB/F/D/B etc plates – even if going to the neighboring country. EU has no power to overrule parts or all of the Geneva Treaties, nor has any country that signed it, including the UK – in for all of it or nothing!)





So! What to do?

You get nothing helpful from DVLA. Their interest is in getting onto the next caller, gathering penalties to offset their own costs and generally to assist Government fund raising by saying you must pay Road Tax if abroad (incorrect under the The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994). You rarely get the same answer twice, on the phone or in writing, (see the Emails they sent to Alex & Harley above!) and never a solution. Paul Gowen of the RAC shares the frustration – and we have yet to hear of the compromise someone claimed he achieved.

The nearest to a legally perfect solution I have come up with was put to the test nearly a year and a half ago and seems to be working! A friend was taking her car out of the UK (and out of EU) for an extended period. She submitted Part 11 from page 3-4 of the V5C (all you need abroad is page 1-2) to DVLA with a covering letter stating the car was going to be abroad for an indeterminate period, travelling from country to country – never more than 6 months in each. She required the Registration to be kept current to comply with the Geneva Treaties, to which Britain had signed, and she would contact DVLA before returning to arrange an MOT (or Vehicle Inspecorate inspection of identity) and visit a local DVLA office. She never received a reply and went on her way.
A few months ago we reached the anniversary of her leaving UK. Being in UK at the time, I phoned the DVLA to enquire if they were expecting a SORN – their reply was “No, the vehicle is Exported [no mention of Permanently] and it should be re-registered at a local DVLA office, with a MOT certificate or Vehicle Inspectorate certificate immediately it returns to the UK”.


And no doubt someone else has been told you can’t do this…………!



As ever, I am open to correction.

pheasantplucker 5 Oct 2010 09:37

HI TonyP

I didn't miss you post, i had dutifully read EVERY post in this thread ~ and i have yours copied and pasted into word and printed off to follow it lol

as it is my sons friend who deals with our MoT's i will contact him beofre i get back to the UK and will book the truck in for MoT, i will also make sure i have my insurance with me, which i can do online, and in theory that should be ok, and i don't care if its not thats what I am going to do!

because i have residence status here in north africa, i have to pay road tax, italy and france will know what it is as this country is full of french and italian cars!

i will probably get some sort of garage inspection/equivilent to UK MoT? in france, for my own piece of mind, and it won't hurt i guess to show the police that will no doubt stop me, or the cameras, that I made sure the vehicle WAS raodworthy, AND it had a prebooked MoT for the UK, WAS insured, and dutifully taxed as soon as MoT completed, trusting it passes one lol

thats what i figure on doing based on what i read in your post, and that i had read somewhere about traveling to the MoT station.

there used to be something about it being the nearest one? shortest traelling distance from the registered address of the vehicle? that will do to get me home!!!!

and thanks to everyone for being so helpful to a non biker! (ex kept the bike!! kwak ZJII 1000)

luckyluke84 22 Mar 2011 15:46

Hi all :)
I am new to this site and I must admit I haven't read every single post in this thread. SO apologies if I repeat something.

But I had looked at it a few times before joining the HUBB and it seems that there is still no concrete solution as to how to leave the UK for more than 12 months "legally", without exporting the bike.

I myself am planing a round the world trip that will most likely take more than 12 months so the problem is looming.

So I just called the DVLA to see if they are aware of the problem, and yes they are. When I asked what they could do about it, they said that they are stuck and bound by the laws and regulations. So then they suggested that I contact my local MP in order that the subject be raised with the relevant people in govenment.

Might seem like it would get lost there "like a needle in the haystack" sort of thing. However, word has it that if enough people raise the same issue with their MP, eventually they have to listen.

So to all you UK people out there, email your MP (its really easy to do online, just google "find/email your local MP" and follow the links). We may not change the world instantly, but its worth a try:)

:scooter:

pjw203 20 May 2011 13:14

Another solution?
 
Thought i'd run this crazy idea past you all as you seem pretty clued.

So, if non resident in the UK (<365 days in last 2 years), or UK resident but leaving for more than 6 months, you can purchase a vehicle from a "registered" dealer (used or new) DUTY FREE. The bike is given (new) or keeps (used) it's number plate, and you got six months to get out the EC (europe).

as you leave you got to send a slip to the dvla with details of export date etc, then your bike is officially no longer UK "registered". You do however still have the purchase papers, a copy of whatever the DVLA give you in the first place (called a vx403 but no idea what it looks like) the number plates and hopefully a carnet if the RAC will give you one (????). What other papers do you really need?

this may be a shot in the dark but VAT on a new bike is a lot of spends!

Not sure what my plans are with my bike at the end, maybe register in another country (and by that point the value of the bike will have dropped ajorly so import duties should be smaller)

Any feedback?

PJ

Tony P 26 Jun 2011 21:24

Mind the Gap !!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 307821)
The nearest to a legally perfect solution I have come up with was put to the test nearly a year and a half ago and seems to be working! A friend was taking her car out of the UK (and out of EU) for an extended period. She submitted Part 11 from page 3-4 of the V5C (all you need abroad is page 1-2) to DVLA with a covering letter stating the car was going to be abroad for an indeterminate period, travelling from country to country – never more than 6 months in each. She required the Registration to be kept current to comply with the Geneva Treaties, to which Britain had signed, and she would contact DVLA before returning to arrange an MOT (or Vehicle Inspecorate inspection of identity) and visit a local DVLA office. She never received a reply and went on her way.
A few months ago we reached the anniversary of her leaving UK. Being in UK at the time, I phoned the DVLA to enquire if they were expecting a SORN – their reply was “No, the vehicle is Exported [no mention of Permanently] and it should be re-registered at a local DVLA office, with a MOT certificate or Vehicle Inspectorate certificate immediately it returns to the UK”.

And no doubt someone else has been told you can’t do this…………!

As ever, I am open to correction.

Just a quick non-update -

-She still has her car in Russia.
-Nothing has been received at the UK address DVLA have for her.
-She plans to take the car back to UK within the next couple of months.

In the meantime I understand (separetly from LuckyLuke above) that DVLA finally admit to a gap in the legislation but refuse to suggest a way round it.
doh

ilesmark 28 Jun 2011 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 340466)
I phoned the DVLA to enquire if they were expecting a SORN – their reply was “No, the vehicle is Exported [no mention of Permanently] and it should be re-registered at a local DVLA office, with a MOT certificate or Vehicle Inspectorate certificate immediately it returns to the UK”.

Interestingly, this talles with what I was told by DVLA when I was planning my own 1/2 RTW trip. They said to declare the vehicle exported and then re-import/re-register it when I got back. I went the SORN route instead to save the hassle of going to a DVLA office in person and doing all the paperwork. I also wonder whether, technically, a vehicle is still registered in the UK if DVLA's records show it as exported.

overlandcruiser.net

danielsprague 19 Nov 2011 15:45

I've read each post in this thread, I've dipped into it for the last 3 years to be honest in anticipation of a return to the UK.

I left the UK in May 2007 with my 4x4. I returned the tax disc for a refund once I left the EEA. Since that time the vehicle has been around Eurasia, out of the EEA. I've never registered the vehicle in another country, kept the car SORN'd in the UK.

So now, I have the joy of returning to the UK, compounded by the fact that 'my' government seems to deem my trip illegal.

Insurance-wise, it seems not to be possible to insure my car with a UK insurer as the car will be out of the UK at the start date of the policy. I have a green card purchased in Ukraine which covers all green-card member states (including the UK), except for Ukraine itself.

I'm going to book an MOT before disembarking in Dover Port, and I live just a couple of hours away.

My main worry is a run-in with the Orwellian surveillance organs of the regime. What are my best chances at escaping being recorded? I'll be driving at night, and avoiding motorways. Is this a wise move?? Any other tips? What are UK customs like? Are they likely to check car paperwork etc (the car still has UK plates). Or should I maybe use a 'local' set of plates (with my number, but in Pakistani format, used when driving through Afghanistan).

I really wish I was dealing with money-hungry Russian GAI-niks or mindless, indoctrinated Iranian militia than the 'computer says no' bureacracy of Britain.

Welcome back!!

Daniel

Tony P 19 Nov 2011 22:35

Insurance.
Try Stuart Collins and Co European Motor Insurance and Annual Green Cards
They are specialists in this sort of thing. If you have difficulties, come back to me via PM. The owner is a personal friend and will try harder!

MOT.
The test station can be anywhere - not necessarily close to your home. Just ensure you are reasonably 'en route' in terms of road usage and time. You are allowed to stop for rest (home overnight?) on your way. After the test you are permited to return literally anywhere. If it has failed, you can later use the vehicle to take it to/from any pre-booked place of repair. All withour tax.

Ensure the test is pre-booked, have proof of entry to UK (loading pass etc) and just get on with your journey. Just as I did a few months ago with an untaxed (by a few days) car with a long expired MOT.

SORN.
As you will have read, the vehicle has to be in the UK to be declared SORN. DVLA now acknowledge there is an anomoly in the Law, but are not sympathetic - they prefer to apply the letter of the Law rather than the spirit and try to extort informal Penalty Charges to supplement their Budget.
This is a separate topic away from this forum. Sufficient to say that at present I am part of an action 'against' DVLA through the Parliamentary Commons Committees, which hopefully will lead to a change of attitude.

Off Topic
You, like me, presumably have grown to love the personal freedoms of Russia and its CIS neighbours. I only go back to over-regulated, over-watched, over-restricted, over-taxed, rip-off Britain to see my family, enjoy proper beer and my 'local' pub life from time to time.

danielsprague 29 Nov 2011 13:13

Thanks for the reply. Sums up my opinion. I was more asking how best to avoid cameras (A roads, motorway etc)

I would like to ask your opinion of one more thing... I know the car will fail an MOT, so I would waste about 60 quid just to get a fail certificate. Do you think a faxed confirmation of an MOT from a local garage will be enough to present to the DVLA if I get a letter asking why the car has been used? Or would I absolutely need a fail certificate? I could always say I got a puncture en route, was late and the car couldn't be tested that day, so drove home...

Daniel

Walkabout 29 Nov 2011 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielsprague (Post 357619)
Thanks for the reply. Sums up my opinion. I was more asking how best to avoid cameras (A roads, motorway etc)

I would like to ask your opinion of one more thing... I know the car will fail an MOT, so I would waste about 60 quid just to get a fail certificate. Do you think a faxed confirmation of an MOT from a local garage will be enough to present to the DVLA if I get a letter asking why the car has been used? Or would I absolutely need a fail certificate? I could always say I got a puncture en route, was late and the car couldn't be tested that day, so drove home...

Daniel

You've done well to read every previous post in this thread - I haven't, so this information may be here already.
For motorbikes, the UK MOT test system requires that the MOT testing station logs onto a computer site for a set period of time. My instinct is that it is the same for all other vehicles, but the point is that test stations have lost their credentials to carry out MOT tests for breaking such rules of the DVLA - in summary, even they are under the computer-based scrutiny of the beauracracy.
I would be a bit surprised then if you can get some kind of less-than-fully-official certificate to say that a test has been done, and the car failed. Even if you had some kind of paper certificate, I would also guess that it would be easy(ish) to check that via the logon records of the DVLA for test certs. that, no doubt, they will hold.
In the last 4-5 years, while you have been travelling, vehicle computer records have come together far more comprehensively and completely, such that you can have your MOT cert, road fund licence and ownership of the vehicle all cross-checked by those who have access to such things, such as those sat in a police car on the highway. That has also led to accusations (really!) of such information being sold on by those good souls who work inside the DVLA and can get to it.

You might surmise, that £60 for a genuine fail cert is good value?

If you could cross the UK border on Weds 30 Nov, it will probably be wide open while most of the UK goes on strike for the day :oops2:So, no MOT paperwork checks on that day would be a strong possibility.

Great travel blog by the way.
And, yes, the people of Asia also have lots of rules, but they also have far more individual freedom than those in western countries in general, and the UK in particular.

Walkabout 29 Nov 2011 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 356504)


SORN.
As you will have read, the vehicle has to be in the UK to be declared SORN. DVLA now acknowledge there is an anomoly in the Law, but are not sympathetic - they prefer to apply the letter of the Law rather than the spirit and try to extort informal Penalty Charges to supplement their Budget.
This is a separate topic away from this forum. Sufficient to say that at present I am part of an action 'against' DVLA through the Parliamentary Commons Committees, which hopefully will lead to a change of attitude.

.

With the all-seeing eye of the computer-based system, it is not clear to me that there is any way for "it" to know that a vehicle is not in the country. This has been discussed elsewhere in the HUBB in relation to the masses of UK registered vehicles that are driving around, say, France, with out of date tax discs and no current MOT certificate.
Of course, a vehicle can be declared SORN by online means and I don't suppose that the DVLA check on where such a SORN logon is located, yet.

Tony P 29 Nov 2011 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielsprague (Post 357619)
I know the car will fail an MOT, so I would waste about 60 quid just to get a fail certificate. Do you think a faxed confirmation of an MOT from a local garage will be enough to present to the DVLA if I get a letter asking why the car has been used? Or would I absolutely need a fail certificate? I could always say I got a puncture en route, was late and the car couldn't be tested that day, so drove home...

I don't know if they follow up on 'no-shows' - not the garage, but the watchers at DVLA.
Sounds like a reasonable wheeze - but you never know these days. I would give it a go - but I am not averse to both risk and arguing with officialdom!
Maybe to keep in the good books of the garage, cancel the appointment once home but before the appointed time. You can't be the first to fail to keep an apppointment for whatever reason.

I don't think a fax is necessary - you can refer anyone to the test centre's appointment records. But I am of the strong opinion that MOT appointments are logged into the Vehicle Inspectorate's computor, to which Police, DVLA, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all have access.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkabout (Post 357659)
With the all-seeing eye of the computer-based system, it is not clear to me that there is any way for "it" to know that a vehicle is not in the country. This has been discussed elsewhere in the HUBB in relation to the masses of UK registered vehicles that are driving around, say, France, with out of date tax discs and no current MOT certificate.
Of course, a vehicle can be declared SORN by online means and I don't suppose that the DVLA check on where such a SORN logon is located, yet.

Sure, I don't see it a problem being out of UK.
It is the vehicle that must be in UK.
But if you are concerned, or it won't accept it, you can always defeat IP location identifiers and tracing by using "ExPat Shield" or others. I use this to watch for various things. They say (:nono: :innocent:) you can use this to see live BBC TV on-line in Russia, which is otherwise "unavailable in your area" (due to regional or rights restrictions). Every time you log on, it assignes a UK (or non territorial) IP address to your PC, so your true IP/location will not be revealed, so no restriction!:thumbup1:

The point is that in SORN you are declaring the vehicle is still in UK, but not on a road maintained at public expense.
Apart from the consequences of making a false declaration and all that follows, you could hardly maintain it was SORN (therefore had been in UK) if you are seen by ANPR readers in the arrivals area of Dover docks or the Tunnel terminal - where they certainly exist and are used, at least to assist security and booking information. I would not put it past 'them' to be linked in.

But as above and earlier in the thread, I would be prepared to argue the points in any Court if needbe, if caught in DVLA's Catch 22 gap in the rules they enforce and they try to seek settlement penalties for their own coffers.


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