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  #46  
Old 8 Apr 2009
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I've been following this with interest but up to now didn't have anything worth posting. I had pretty much decided that I wouldn't bother actually dealing with the DVLA but would just SORN when my tax expired (soon after leaving u.k). However I have just been to get the SORN (V890) form and on it in bold it states 'this form cannot be used if the vehicle is temporarily out of the country'. It looks as though the DVLA have now made it explicit that the way for us to go is not to SORN.

Personally I'm not going to go through the nonsense of permanently exporting the vehicle, and I'm still not sure how effective putting a note on the file they hold will be, so I think I might just ignore the bold print, tax again before I leave to get me legally through Europe, and then SORN from there on. However I can now be sure that this is not really the right thing to be doing.
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  #47  
Old 8 Apr 2009
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Typically of this government, anything they can do (legal or not) to get you to keep paying regardless...

You only 'legally' need to pay your road fund licence if you are keeping and/or using the particular vehicle on the road - anything else is just a ruse to get you to keep paying the UK road tax, even if you are not bloody here using it!

As you've suggested, I would simply go ahead with your trip, and just SORN it when the times comes - there is nothing they can do (and they bloody know it, which is why they are desperately trying to confuse us with gobbledy gook).

Like I said above, the DVLA doesn't have a button for the very few of us who travel outside of this country for an extended period - enjoy it while you can, they'll probably think of even more ways to fleece us and restrict out movement at the same time...

This thread is going round and round... I may have to unsubscribe as it is beginning to upset me...

xxx
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  #48  
Old 20 Apr 2009
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Bugger !!!!!

So like I said I e-mail the DVLA again, specifically the person who contacted myself and Harley and this is the reply I got - see if you can make sense of it, I got a bit lost.

So in the light of this e-mail I'd like to propose a service to all you UK based long-term overlanders. Send the bit off to say you're permanently exporting the vehicle. Send me the V5 and all the bumph. I'll go register your vehicle in France. Then you won't have road tax, the MOT is only every two years and if you go abroad for longer you just MOT it when you get back.

Obviously there's certain costs involved, but hey it's a small price to pay for piece of mind isn't it

Now admire the poor (original) formatting and think, this is where your taxes go......



Thank you for your email.
Firstly I would like to apologise that the advice you have previously received was inaccurate.
I should begin by explaining, since the 1st January 2004, the Continuous Registration legislation became effective. Under this legislation, the registered keeper of a vehicle is legally responsible for ensuring his/her vehicle is currently taxed or a Statutory Off-Road Notification (SORN) has been made at all times. Registered keepers will continue to be responsible for their vehicle until DVLA is notified that the vehicle has been scrapped, sold or exported, or unless a SORN has been made . Please note that as quoted in the Vehicles Registration and Licensing Regulations 2002, a SORN is only valid if the vehicle is kept off road in Great Britain or Northern Ireland.
If a vehicle is taken out of the country (for less than twelve months) but remains registered in Great Britain, the vehicle must be taxed.
If you have a V5C Registration Certificate and are registered as the keeper of the vehicle, you should take the document with you. If you do not have a V5C you should apply for one on V62* application form. The V62 should be returned to DVLA Swansea and will take between 20/30 working days to issue.
However, if you are in possession of the V5C/2 new keepers supplement the DVLA local office may be able to issue a V379/1 temporary Certificate of Registration to cover the period the vehicle is out of the country. The addresses of the DVLA local offices can be found on our website below. If you make your application in person to a Local Office you will also need to provide proof of identity e.g. Passport, Driving Licence or a Utilities Bill, which clearly shows your name and address, and also proof of purchase or Bill of Sale for the vehicle.
If your tax expires and you need to renew it while you are abroad, provided you have a V5C, you may apply for a new tax disc by post using the application V10. The application should be sent to one of the Post Offices® listed in the booklet V100 or to a DVLA local office. The V10 forms are available from the Post Office or can be downloaded from our website. The V100 booklets are available from DVLA or Post Offices. Your application can be made up to six weeks in advance. All applications will require original V5C, or, V5C/2.
However, if the V5/C or the V5C/2 is not available you can submit a V62* application form. Provided you are shown as current keeper on DVLA records or if the previous keeper has notified DVLA of the disposal of the vehicle. You will also need to provide the original Insurance Certificate/Cover Note and MOT Certificate documentation to your Local Office. If you give a despatch address abroad the tax disc of the vehicle can be sent to you there. Remember that it is in your interest to check with your insurer that your use abroad is properly covered. You will also need to fix GB plates on your vehicle to identify the country of registration.
*If you do not have a Registration Document/Certificate there will be a charge for replacement Vehicle Registration Certificates.(£25)

If you are the registered keeper of a vehicle you may also use our website to pay for your tax disc or call our dedicated phone number on 0870 850 4444.
The website address is
www.direct.gov.uk/taxdisc
You can use our website 24 hours per day, 7 days per week*. And within 5 working days of completing your application, you'll receive your tax disc by first class post.
When you retax on the Internet or by telephone we'll electronically check your vehicle is insured on the motor insurance database run by the Motor Insurers Information Centre.
If applicable, we'll also electronically check if your vehicle has a valid new style computerised Test Certificate (MOT/GVT) on the database run by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA)
All you need to do is follow the steps by quoting either the 16 digit reference number on your tax disc application/SORN form V11 or alternatively, you can quote the document reference number on your vehicle registration certificate (V5C)
*subject to essential maintenance.
I should explain, when taxing using our website or telephone service, the tax disc must be issued to the name and address on our records. Therefore, you would need to arrange for a friend or relative to have access to your UK address so the disc may be forwarded to you.
If you are unable to keep the vehicle tax valid whilst outside of the UK I can only advise that you return section 11 of the registration certificate to notify that the vehicle is no longer being kept in the UK. Please note that any tax disc application would be subject to the vehicle having a valid MOT test certificate (UK or northern Ireland only).
DVLA can not advise on what action, if any, may be taken by a foreign authority against an unlicensed UK registered vehicle.
As you can see from my response there is no definitive answer with regards to what should be done if a UK vehicle is kept outside of the UK for over 12 months and is not re-registered.
I trust my reply has been of some assistance.
Regards


Mr I Harris
Motoring : Directgov
[THREAD ID:1-1251GS]

-----Original Message-----
From: alex.richards@xxxxxxxx.fr
Sent: 07/04/2009 15:02:43
To: <vehicles.dvla@gtnet.gov.uk>
Subject: Taking a UK registered vehicle out of the UK for more than 12 months but not permanently registering it in another country.

Hello

I am currently planning a round the world overland trip by motorbike which will be for more than 12 months. I understand that usually this would mean I should send you the V5 document and you would send a Certificate of Permanent Export which is used to register the vehicle in another country.

HOWEVER, I will not be taking up residency in any of the countries I will be passing through and thus wouldn't be permitted to register the motorbike there even if I wanted to. Also I will need to keep the original V5 document intact to present to any border officials in the large number of countries I will be passing through. As you can appreciate a Certificate of Permanent Export would not suffice.

I have heard several different versions of what may or may not be possible and would very much like to clarify the situation. Several months ago I contacted you and received the following:
Thank you for your email.

You would not be able to make a SORN declaration with regard to your vehicle because it is out of the country. SORN can only be declared on a vehicle when it is laid up within the confines of the UK.


Because you would not be able to tax your vehicle nor declare it off road let alone permanently export it you would need to write a letter into us. It would be necessary for you to quote the registration number and for you to explain what you intend to do with the vehicle over the next couple of years or so. You can even ask for this correspondence to be placed on the vehicle record so that you are not bothered about any fines or penalties with regard to this vehicle.

The address to write or fax into is;
Vehicle Customer Services, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA.
Fax No. 01792 - 782378.

I hope that this information has clarified matters for you.
Regards
David S Evans
Motoring : Directgov


However a friend did precisely this several days ago and contacted you today to hear that no such notes had been put on file and was told that he should EXPORT the vehicle. Apparently the woman he spoke to was a nice lady and listened to the argument, and said she would double check and ring back. She did and she says that they are 100% sure that this is the way to do it. When he returns to the country he just has to contact them to re-import it.

As I shall shortly be leaving the UK, I'd very much like to verify precisely what I should do, as you can imagine I thought I had this sorted out, but it now appears I may have to do something entirely different. Also to have a definative reply would be very useful as I know of numerous people who have asked the same thing on several overland travellers' websites. Perhaps if some log could be made on your system and either a definative answer posted on your website, and also if possible a hard copy of the reply which could be distributed to the relevant motoring associations (only two after all).

Yours

Alex Richards



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  #49  
Old 20 Apr 2009
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The DVLA reply just goes to show what a bunch of beauraucratic money-grabbing bastards the UK government are... they bend (or just make new) rules to make sure they get as much money as they can - it is appalling.

Of course like so much of the legislation in the UK, it is essentially ineffectual or redundant - what actually happens on the ground is very different to what they hope will happen.

If you keep your V5 (which, as you say is a requirement to cross boarders etc), SORN your bike, and renew the SORN on-line when the time comes - How the fu*k are they going to find out anyway?

Road Tax is for vehicles used on UK roads, anything else is bullsh!t - they can't have their cake and eat it, and they sure as hell are not having any of mine!

xxx

ps. doesn't want to make me come home, that's for sure...

pps. they did the same thing with TV licences - 'continuous licencing' my arse... if you don't have a TV for a few years then buy one, why should you have paid a licence in the interim? It's up to them to prove you were watching TV, not for you to prove you weren't... and while we're on that theme - when did we allow the constitution to change from innocent until proven guilty?

grrrrr...
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  #50  
Old 20 Apr 2009
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One step forward - two back.

as I said here on 13 December -
"Never NEVER NEVER ask the DVLA. The only people you get to speak to generally know nothing!"

I also said on the similar thread http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...mot-road-32649 on 1 February 2008 -
"My own conclusion and own actions, ...
....is that, if I take it away for extended periods, I would SORN it as not being on UK public roads, either on departure or when a current tax expires, and renew the SORN a year later.

If they want to get 'arsey' I would demand they prosecute me (forget their fixed penalty money raising opportunities) and I will argue in any Court that my actions were reasonable and fair."


It's back to that for me for the timebeing.

Thanks for trying Alex.
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  #51  
Old 21 Apr 2009
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Bloody stupid system. Well I tried, I don't quite know why, but I did, I think it's because I loathe bureaucracy with a passion - hmm, maybe France isn't the right place for me to live.

But just to complete the circle I e-mail the Department for Transport, with copies of all the other e-mails. Let's see.

Only other thing I can think to do, and this is for you guys in the UK is to mail your MP. Usually they're pretty good at getting answers out of Govt departments, and if you've got an opposition MP you usually get better replies.
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  #52  
Old 21 Apr 2009
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"Only other thing I can think to do, and this is for you guys in the UK is to mail your MP. Usually they're pretty good at getting answers out of Govt departments, and if you've got an opposition MP you usually get better replies."

One of the problems with asking for a change is that the change may not be 100% in favour of those requesting it. In Holland people have to keep their vehicles taxed the whole time they are away, and it would be a backwards step if we achieved that as our answer.

The DVLA's answer is perhaps somewhat targeted to those who use British registered vehicles in Spain/France/Portugal for years without ever getting a MOT etc (which is perhaps part of the reason why the note appears on the V5). I don't think they really care about you having your vehicle in Chad for 2 years unless you really force them to produce an answer.

To me the system of SORNing works fine provided you get insurance before you set foot inside the EU and book the MOT for your day of arrival back in the UK (it won't be long, if not already, before DVLA cameras operate at all of the ports and frieght agents have to report license plates when importing?).

So whilst it is annoying to not have a proper answer/solution, there is a workable solution that I have used 4 times with minimal effort.
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  #53  
Old 21 Apr 2009
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And then they get you as you roll off the ferry.

Quote:
Police hunt law-breakers at port

Police were out in force at a Plymouth ferry port in an attempt to crack down on sea-faring criminals.
More than 100 vehicles were stopped coming off ferries at Millbay Docks during Operation Harmison on Friday...........(more)
So now it looks like you'll get a letter in the post with your fine, along with your welcome home cards
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  #54  
Old 21 Apr 2009
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There isn't much detail in the article, but it suggests if you have your insurance and are coming back with a passport full of visa's and a confirmed MOT appointment (have the full name and address of the MOT station to hand) then you would be ok.

A camera might pick you up and issue a fine, but you would get off appealing on the basis of your MOT certificate or fail sheet being correctly dated.
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  #55  
Old 22 May 2009
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Hello all,
I have a little input.
I left UK on May 1st 2008, for Norway, Norway is not EU.
I left UK with my vehicle having 1 month road tax, and 3 months MOT.
Just as the road tax expired, I did an 'on-line' SORN.
The following month the MOT was due, as my vehicle was now 3 years old.
As a note, in Norway, vehicles don't need their first MOT until 4 years old.
I still had the fully comp. insurance.

A week before I returned to UK, I booked a MOT at my local MOT station, the same one I had been using for the past 10 years or more.
When I arrived at Harwich, I drove the 200 miles to the local MOT station for my 16:00 appointment time that day.
I then drove home.
I actually dropped the vehicle at the MOT, and walked home, a full 5 minutes !
Mr. MOT called me in about an hour, I gave him £40.00 and he gave me a brand new MOT.
I did the 'on-line' vehicle taxing, when I got home, no problems.

I was out of UK for more than 12 months.
The only thing I was not happy with, was buying a tax disc half way through the month.
Why can't they have these starting from specific dates, beats me.


'vette
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  #56  
Old 3 Jun 2009
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Hi, not sure if this will help but my boyfriend and I will be out of the country for 16 months or so and are planning to MOT the car just before leaving in Dec, the tax will run out 6months into the trip but you can get a tax disc sent to you abroad and the MOT is still valid then so that gives us another years tax 6months into the trip. We'll book the MOT when heading back to UK or just off the ferry etc.. Not sure how long you're planning on being away for?

Jemma
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  #57  
Old 15 Oct 2009
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Just a thought; is the V5 the whole A3 thing? Many people laminate copies for travel, do they only do the A4 side with details on? And this is usually acceptable? The permanently export section is on the other side with tear off strips for sale/sorn/scrap etc, so if you did export you could still keep the details side to use abroad?

Our vehicle was permanently exported by the previous owners for a trip of several years. On their return, they had a garage collect it from the dock on trade plates, and was stored with them to be mot'd and put up for sale. The only complication was the tax disc, since the vehicle didn't have a previous one as a "new" import the taxing could only be done at a DVLA office.

Enquiries over the last month about our extended trip confirms that permanent export is still the only 12month plus option as far as the DVLA are concerned, SORN only applies to a vehicle in the UK, and cannot be done unless you are in the UK! Their advice is to contact them in the port on disembarkation if you arrive with no MOT (or appointment for one) to SORN!
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  #58  
Old 17 Dec 2009
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Hi Alex,
I often leave a bike in spain but have to bring it back to ripoff britain for the paperwork. how does reg in france work, as give 2 fingers to the dvla would be a bit nice
steve
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  #59  
Old 17 Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS View Post
I'd say the chances of getting stopped between the ferry port and your home on the return journey from a trip is miniscule in the UK these days!
Fixed ANPR cameras on every major motorway now - the chance of being caught is very high I am afraid.
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  #60  
Old 17 Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefastone View Post
Hi Alex,
I often leave a bike in spain but have to bring it back to ripoff britain for the paperwork. how does reg in france work, as give 2 fingers to the dvla would be a bit nice
steve
We moved from the Uk to la belle France a couple of years ago and I bought a couple of UK registered bikes with me and re-registered them here.
In my experience you will need a French address and my BMW was relatively straightforward to re-register but my Hornet was a bit of a nightmare.
It's a bit of a lottery really.
Both bikes took a couple of months waiting for paperwork and getting them tested and registered.
Yes I saved quite a lot of money although there was a chunk of money for headlights and re-registration and on balance I'm not sure I'd do it again.
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