The DVLA's reply
 

Out of interest I e-mailed the DVLA using the link I posted above and here's the reply.


Thank you for your email.

You would not be able to make a SORN declaration with regard to your vehicle because it is out of the country. SORN can only be declared on a vehicle when it is laid up within the confines of the UK.

Because you would not be able to tax your vehicle nor declare it off road let alone permanently export it you would need to write a letter into us. It would be necessary for you to quote the registration number and for you to explain what you intend to do with the vehicle over the next couple of years or so. You can even ask for this correspondence to be placed on the vehicle record so that you are not bothered about any fines or penalties with regard to this vehicle.

The address to write or fax into is;
Vehicle Customer Services, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA.
Fax No. 01792 - 782378.

I hope that this information has clarified matters for you.
Regards
David S Evans
Motoring : Directgov

So it would appear to be perfectly OK to drive round the world in an untaxed, unsorned vehicle according to the DVLA, and I'd suggest that if anyone wants to do this they let them know, that way when the shit hits the fan you can point at their records and say "I told you so".

Might be interesting for a few other people to mail them to see if you get the same answer.

Forgive me - how does that work?
Illegally used cars would presumably not have a current or out of date tax disc showing, and more likely not one at all, so how do they know from this source what it should look like? They are used to looking at nothing!

Back to my original point. UK Road Tax is a UK tax, for UK registered vehicles only (ignoring commercials), being used on UK public roads only. If it is not on UK public roads it is not due. But you should SORN it as not being used or kept on UK public roads.

The Geneva Convention (GC) is about recriprocal rights for visitors temporary use of public roads elsewhere than in their own country, without the need for payment of local Customs and Import Taxes of the Country being visited, or have local registration. Customs Import Taxes, Sales Tax, etc, if any, would have been paid in the country of origin, prior to it granting the registration.

The GC is not about an internal tax for internally registered vehicles for using or not using public roads in their own country. But for use in other countries it does require the vehicle to be technically valid (ie in terms of design, specification, construction and mechanical maintenance) in the country of Registration. Even to the point of not having to comply with local laws of the country being visited, if their rules are in conflict.

It also stastes the white GB, F, AUS etc discs be displayed - not the little blue squares on number plates - they are not valid under the GC. So much for Blair/Browns regard for internationally accepted rules when it suits them cow-towing to the EU seeking their place in history!

Alex
I posted before reading yours.
Well done. A most useful document to have. Are they backing it up with a hard copy? That is one of the points I have been banging on about for years.

Not only does it show they cannot make up thier minds and keep changing their view, but it also throws some light on what has been a potential can of worms- Permanant Export.

Someone at DVLA did once verbally insist Road Tax was payable if using public roads abroad but could not cite the actual legislation empowering this.When asked a few weeks later they could not give an answer!

Permanant Export. Their website and V5 (V5C) says if taking the vehicle out of the UK for more than 12 months it is regarded as Permanant Export. As has been gone through many times previously on HUBB, this would effectivly nullify the Registration and make longer journeys illegal under the GC. The general advice on HUBB had been to ignore this, dont put your head above the parapet by asking, and just go and keep SORNing online.

As someone once posted (and I have oft repeated) never, NEVER, NEVER tell DVLA anything. Now that might be changed!

This Email (and hopefully a legal hard copy) is most useful.
Thanks.

Hard Copy??? HAHAHA!! But I suppose one could write to them, do they still accept letters?

It's one of the reasons why it would be worth other people asking the same question, just to check that there's no conflicting answers from different client advisers (or whatever they're called these days).

A result !
 

Hi all

I have watching this thread with interest.. you can imagine that I am often asked this question in relation to carnet issue & extended overseas travel. What do I do about road tax/ MOT ??

I called DVLA Vehicle Policy Unit some years ago & got the standard response that yes, Continuous Registration applies. But if exporting the vehicle for more than 12 months, the V5 should be surrendered & a Certificate of Export is issued to assist with registration in the country of destination. Standard wording on V5 & elsewhere. Of course, irrelevant because you are not taking up residency in another country, purely visiting !

It was implied to me that an official SORN declaration would be an option but DVLA would not put this in writing.... understandably.

It is therefore gratifying that DVLA do finally seem to recognise the overlanding community by suggesting you write to Customer Services outlining your plans & a letter will be put on file.

Thanks to Tony P for constant hammering & especially to Alexlebrit for taking the time to enquire & posting response onto this thread.

Agree... it would be interesting if others were to enquire to see if DVLA continue to sing from same hymm sheet !

Paul

In order to get a reply in writing (on DVLA letterhead) as opposed to a less legally binding Email, I intend to write a letter to them in next few days.

Hopefully they will still give the same answer as they gave Alex. However they are notorious for answering differently each time the same question is asked - depending on the differing levels of knowledge and helpfulness of the person being asked the question. Also, I always feel an answer very much depends on the question and how it is asked.

When I hear back I will post here a scan of the question and reply, that others can hopefully use. If it is positive, I will also make photocopies available via PM. I am afraid it probably will not be until February when I will see the reply, as I am away in RUS for all of January (planning for next years trips amongst other things!).

Yes, Cheers to Alex. He really has finally opened this up. Praise too to DVLA who appear to have, at last, grasped the nettle.

I was bored this morning so I emailed the DVLA with the following question:-

Please can you advise how I could remain legal if taking my UK vehicle abroad for an extended period say 2 years on a multi country trip.
I know you say I should export the vehicle if it's to be out of the country for over a year. But that is only practical if the vehicle is to be re-registered in another country. If I am constantly travelling between countries that cannot be done.
I know I can renew my road tax via the internet, but I can only do this if I have a current MOT.
It is not possible to renew a UK MOT whilst abroad, so once the MOT expires I cannot retax the vehicle without returning to the UK and as soon as I drive off the ferry I am committing an offense.
Are there any concessions for this catch 22 situation?

And I received the following reply:-

Thank you for your email.
You are right when you say that it would not be practical to register your vehicle in another country if you are passing through a large number of them over a two year period.
You would not be able to tax your vehicle because of the lack of a valid MOT certificate and you would not be able to declare your vehicle off the road because this can only be done if the vehicle was being laid up within the confines of the UK.
In these circumstances you would need to write a letter into the Centre quoting the registration mark of the vehicle and explaining why it would not be taxed or declared off the road over the next 2 years or so. You can ask for this correspondence to be entered on to the vehicle record. This would ensure that you would not receive any fines or penalties with regard to the fact that your car will not be taxed.
The following contact information should be used with regard to this matter;
Vehicle Customer Services, DVLA, Swansea, SA99 1BA.
I hope that this matter has clarified matters for you.
Regards
David S Evans
Motoring : Directgov

Harley Rider, that's excellent, I did the same for the other thread, and got the SAME ANSWER, interestingly from the same person, which makes me think he's possibly the bod awkward questions get passed up to.

Nice to know that we both got the same reply, it seems to make it more legit.

Harleyrider did the same as me but posted it on the other thread. He got the SAME ANSWER interestingly from the same person (awkward question department?) so that's good to know. Even better would as you say to have this in writing, but it's good to have it confirmed.

Paul, I'm amazed the DVLA couldn't give you a decent answer given who you work for, you'd think they'd be keen on fostering good relations with the motoring associations. Perhaps you could try the written route too, surely they'd respond to something on RAC letter paper?

Trouble is that the turkey at the DVLA is giving a British centric answer of the question asked - its not being untaxed back in the UK you have to worry about. Try asking him to produce a "perpetual registration" document (maybe a V5andabit) so that when you cross a border or just get stopped by a copper and are asked to produce the vehicle papers you have something that says your registration in the UK never expires. I can just imagine some out of the way border crossing guards pissing themselves with laughter with the "its got perpetual registration in the UK" excuse, but the date on the V5 expired 2 years ago. It only takes one savvy/corrupt border guard or policeman to destroy a great travel experience and relieve you of a lot of money to get your vehicle past his control point.

Try asking the DVLA what paperwork they will provide you with that complies with the Vienna Convention when your road tax/MOT expire whilst you are out of the country. Bet that answer will take a bit longer to come through and I suspect that it will be a backflip.

Dont forget that UK Police and Ministry of Transport inspectors have done big roundups and impoundments (such a word?) of foreign trucks in the UK over the last few years without current registration documents from their own countries - using the Vienna Convention as the legal basis for their actions.

I'd guess he's giving a British-centric answer cos he's a Brit. I can see however that we're demonstrating how flexible the English language is.

A V5 is a PERPETUAL REGISTRATION for as long as the "life" of a car registered in the UK. Permanently export it and you have to send the V5 back and get a Certificate of Export. Scrap it and you send the V5 back. Sell it and the V5 passes into the hands of the new owner (via the DVLA who change the ownership details on it). No matter what the V5 stays "with" the vehicle. The V5 is a paper document which lists various identifiers particular to the vehicle and its registered owner.

A Vehicle Excise Duty (or road fund) licence is an annual or biannual variable rate tax payable in order to legally drive on UK roads by most categories of UK registered vehicle. "Taxed" vehicles are required to display a paper disc on the vehicle (usually behind the windscreen or in a special holder on the frame) You can exempt your UK registered vehicle from this by applying for a Statutary Off the Road Notice (SORN) if it remains in the UK, or as we've seen from the replies from the DVLA above, by writing to the DVLA to say your vehicle has left the UK but not for permanent export.

The MOT Test is an annual inspection carried out by an approved test centre and overseen by the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency (VOSA). The MOT is not (usually) required for vehicle within the first three years of registration. If your vehicle meets the minimum requirements it will be issued with a paper certificate which should be kept with the vehicle

So you can see that UK VEHICLE REGISTRATION, (like that of many other countries) is in no way dependant on payment of Vehicle Excise Duty nor passing the MOT Test, your vehicle remains registered whether it is within the UK or not, until the owner makes a declaration to the DVLA to state otherwise.

And I hope that clears up some of the meanings of the various terms.

Hi Axel,

above is the only bit I would question the sense in doing... imagine turning up at you local Prefecture with an export certificate instead of the V5:eek3: :funmeterno: :cursing:

Its as bad a all the bollocks MAF give you for the export, (permanent), of pets, (dogs, cats... not horses 'cos they eat those), and the forms you have to BUY. No one on this side of the channel is the slightest bit interested in them.

John

DVLA follow up
 

Hi all/Alex

Picked up on thread on return to office today.

Glad to see same response from DVLA again.

Bearing in mind that my last approach to DVLA was some 2/3 years ago. I will, time permitting, follow up again asap & get, hopefully, an official written reply to clarify once & for all.

Cheers & a Happy New Year to all HUBBers

Paul

Information overload!
 

Hi Alex - Thanks for making that clear to RogerM (and anyone else not familiar with the UK terms) - I guess the confusion is due to the fact that in some countries - the US particularly (and presumably Australia to?), the ownership paper is referred to as a 'Title' while the 'registration' (ie. the letters on the numberplate) is renewed each year along with a payment, like we renew our tax discs...

So if it wasn't clear already, the UK ownership paper* (V5 document) includes the vehicle's registration number - which is displayed on the vehicle numberplate, and remains with the vehicle indefinitely.

We then pay a separate annual 'road tax' (which is displayed separately on a paper disc) to the government each year so we can use the overcrowded, under maintained roads...

It is this tax disc (road fund licence) that popotla is referring to, and as Tony P suggested originally, if you are going away for an extended period and there is any significant refund to be had, then I'd suggest it is still better to SORN the vehicle and take the money back in my opinion!

xxx

*If we are being pedantic, then technically the UK V5 document only shows the 'registered keeper' of the vehicle, and not necessarily the legal owner - although these tend to be, and are taken as, one and the same. Only in certain circumstances, the actual owner of the vehicle may be a business or finance company for example, but the main user of the vehicle is the person who's name is on the V5...

It (and this thread as a whole) just goes to show how messed up and bureaucratic the UK is these days... no wonder we travel!

As we'd obviously all like our money back, I've sent the following to the DVLA:

Hello

Further to the advice given in previous correspondance, about not SORN-ing a vehicle if it is to be used out of the country for more that 12 months, but not permanently exported to another country could you advise me of the following?

I understand one can drive an un-MOT-ed, and so I presume un-taxed, vehicle to the testing station if an appointment has been made in advance, but this would be impossible when I am not in the UK, and also I would prefer to unload and make any neccessary repairs before booking an MOT. Consequently what should I do upon my return to the UK between the port of entry and my home given that I would be driving with neither a valid Tax Disc nor MOT?

If I have taxed my vehicle just prior to my leaving the UK am I eligable to apply for a refund on the unused portion of the Tax Disc, and if so how do I fill out refund form V14 given that none of the situations mentioned on it would apply to my circumstances?

I'll post the reply when I get it, so far they've been very reasonable about this and replied quickly, so if they stay like that I'll e-mail them back and suggest that they produce some form of written document which could be referred to by this and any other site, and also by any motoring associations, carnet issuers, insurers etc.