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*Touring Ted* 22 Nov 2011 19:26

Overstaying 60 day 'Greencard' in Europe with U.K insurance
 
Hey all...

Can anyone throw me some info here..

I want to travel a lot in Europe next year... I have U.K insurance which gives me 60 days 'Green card' in Europe.

I want to stay way over 60 days. What do I do ???

Surely I don't have to buy insurance in each country?

All other continents I have travelled issue insurance at the border. At a guess, Europe being Europe, it's going to be Mega expensive and a total bureaucratic ball ache ?

Also, do I need valid U.K road Tax, MOT etc etc ??

Many thanks in advance

Ted

silver G 22 Nov 2011 20:35

Unless you stay out of the UK for more than a year (in which case that would be a permanent export) then you need tax, insurance and mot as if it were in the UK. If your mot runs out and you can't tax it while abroad the DVLA say you must trailer from the port of entry.
It used to be that one could book an mot at your local garage and 'drive' to it from the port - be interesting to here if anyone has done this recently.
Have you talked to your insurer - they should be able to quote at least.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring...cle/DG_4022582

Niva Say Never 22 Nov 2011 21:36

If you're traveling on a green card issued by your uk insurer, then for sure it needs to be uk legal (tax and mot).
Depending how much more you need, would they let you pay for an extension?

Tony P 22 Nov 2011 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by silver G (Post 356800)
Unless you stay out of the UK for more than a year (in which case that would be a permanent export) then you need tax, insurance and mot as if it were in the UK. If your mot runs out and you can't tax it while abroad the DVLA say you must trailer from the port of entry.
It used to be that one could book an mot at your local garage and 'drive' to it from the port - be interesting to here if anyone has done this recently.
Have you talked to your insurer - they should be able to quote at least.

Taking a vehicle out of the UK permanently or temporarily : Directgov - Motoring

Sorry but this is mostly, if not completely, nonsence.

Direct Gov would like you to pay 'tax' because the Government likes motorists to pay money to them.
But The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says 'tax' is only necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as, “in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a road which is repairable at the public expense”. In Scotland the definition is slightly different due to differing set-ups. There is no definition for a Public Road in France, Russia or the Moon - so 'tax' is not a legal necessity outside the UK under the very Act that makes it necessary in UK.
However see the full story in my post #89 here http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...g-term-39472-6

I recently drove an untaxed (by a few days), un MOTd car from the Channel Tunnel to a pre-booked test in north London then on to South Buckinghamshire where I went to a Post Office to apply for new tax. I passed numerous Police cars of Kent, Metropolitan, Hertfordshire (which procalimed ANPR) and Thames Valley police forces and a strange looking van with an open window on one rear door in a roadside lay-by (probably either a Camera van or ANPR reading).


Ted.
Apart from my post above re MOT and Tax that is amply covered in the link above, your UK policy should automatically give you minimum legally required insurance in other EU member states. This is an EU requirement.
Look at the reverse of your Certificate of Insurance which confirms. Those statements in several languages are accepted in all EU states, not just those using those languages. I have had to produce it in Estonia, Finland and Latvia - none of whose languages are used.

Your Green Card is two things -
1. An internationally recognised Insurance Certificate.
2. Confirmation of extention of your full cover (Comprehensive,TPFT, TP, RTA etc), not just the legal minimum, in the countries and periods mentioned thereon.
When it becomes date expired the normal EU 'legal minimum' will kick in until the main policy comes up for renewal.
This applies to all EU states, plus Switzerland, Norway (possibly Iceland and others) but not all the non-EU balkan countries where you should buy at the border.

Redboots 22 Nov 2011 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* (Post 356794)
I want to stay way over 60 days. What do I do ???

Surely I don't have to buy insurance in each country?

Also, do I need valid U.K road Tax, MOT etc etc ??

For an EU vehicle to be legal anywhere within the EU it has to be legal in the country of origin... tax/mot/insurance/rego
There are loads of Brits running around France/Spain that have no UK road tax, local MOT's and who knows what insurance... You wouldn't want to be hit by one... They are all just dirtying our name even more:nono:

On the insurance front, is it an actual green card or the "international certificate of insurance the Brit companies issue? Does it have Specified dates on it? If not, you have only been there a couple of weeks from before the point you NEED it:thumbup1:

Depending how far you go... Ukraine? UE insisted on my mate buying insurance as he did not have a "green card" but the said bit of paper - ICMI - (white). I had a French green card and no problems with them seeing it as valid.

I think the Balkans are excluded from a lot of GC's so you need to buy as you go. Just depends on the issuing country/company


Its possible you can get a GC from the ADAC in Germany... you might get one that covers all/most of your needs. Call them.

Cheers,
John

silver G 22 Nov 2011 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 356805)
Sorry but this is mostly, if not completely, nonsence.

Direct Gov would like you to pay 'tax' because the Government likes motorists to pay money to them.
But The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says 'tax' is only necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as, “in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a road which is repairable at the public expense”. In Scotland the definition is slightly different due to differing set-ups. There is no definition for a Public Road in France, Russia or the Moon - so 'tax' is not a legal necessity outside the UK under the very Act that makes it necessary in UK.
However see the full story in my post #89 here http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...g-term-39472-6

I recently drove an untaxed (by a few days), un MOTd car from the Channel Tunnel to a pre-booked test in north London then on to South Buckinghamshire where I went to a Post Office to apply for new tax. I passed numerous Police cars of Kent, Metropolitan, Hertfordshire (which procalimed ANPR) and Thames Valley police forces and a strange looking van with an open window on one rear door in a roadside lay-by (probably either a Camera van or ANPR reading).


Ted.
Apart from my post above re MOT and Tax that is amply covered in the link above, your UK policy should automatically give you minimum legally required insurance in other EU member states. This is an EU requirement.
Look at the reverse of your Certificate of Insurance which confirms. Those statements in several languages are accepted in all EU states, not just those using those languages. I have had to produce it in Estonia, Finland and Latvia - none of whose languages are used.

Your Green Card is two things -
1. An internationally recognised Insurance Certificate.
2. Confirmation of extention of your full cover (Comprehensive,TPFT, TP, RTA etc), not just the legal minimum, in the countries and periods mentioned thereon.
When it becomes date expired the normal EU 'legal minimum' will kick in until the main policy comes up for renewal.
This applies to all EU states, plus Switzerland, Norway (possibly Iceland and others) but not all the non-EU balkan countries where you should buy at the border.


I agree with your sentiments Tony but if you want your UK insurance to be valid then you will have to be uk legal.

mustaphapint 22 Nov 2011 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by silver G (Post 356807)
I agree with your sentiments Tony but if you want your UK insurance to be valid then you will have to be uk legal.

I also agree with your sentiments Tony but I would not like to advise someone to risk being pulled and have their vehicle confiscated as a finale to their grand trip. I agree that UK insurance should cover you for the legal minimum whilst within the EU, but riding (or driving) without tax and MOT in the EU and relying on your UK insurance to cover you is taking a risk. Take the risk by all means if you choose, but be well aware you are taking a risk.

*Touring Ted* 23 Nov 2011 06:09

Thanks Chaps...

Well, my insurance WILL be 'UK' valid for the whole period that I am away.

SOOOOO. Are you all saying that no matter what the insurance company stipulates about '60 days European', I will be insured to a minimum level ? But more importantly, I'll be LEGAL.. No matter how long I am in Europe ?

As for TAX and MOT. My MOT is due is due a few weeks before I go so I suppose I'll just get it and the tax too. It's an extra £250 I didn't want to pay but I guess it's better to have it than not eh... I know insurance companies will look for ANY loop hole to get out paying up so I guess having these closes those avenues for them.

Thanks again, Ted

Tony P 23 Nov 2011 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by silver G (Post 356807)
I agree with your sentiments Tony but if you want your UK insurance to be valid then you will have to be uk legal.

"UK legal"

Define please.

mustaphapint 23 Nov 2011 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 356855)
"UK legal"

Define please.

Legal in the vehicle's home country. If the home country is the UK is means insured, MOT'd and taxed

Tony P 23 Nov 2011 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustaphapint (Post 356861)
Legal in the vehicle's home country. If the home country is the UK is means insured, MOT'd and taxed

Thanks for responding.
To take the discussion forward accurately, for the benefit of all, I would prefer to hear a more precise definition from you.
I could already query that on a number of grounds and examples.
But I won't until we all know exactly what is being contended and the basis.
I will respond further then.

Statute citation(s) please.

ilesmark 23 Nov 2011 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* (Post 356846)
Are you all saying that no matter what the insurance company stipulates about '60 days European', I will be insured to a minimum level ? But more importantly, I'll be LEGAL.. No matter how long I am in Europe ?

My 2-pennoth, FWIW, is that the 60 Days European / Green Card (in the parlance of your UK insurance co) refers to comprehensive cover (which UK and all other EU insurers are free to cover you or not cover you for as it's above the legal minumum of 3rd party) and that once this expires you revert to the legal minumum of 3rd party outside the UK but elsewhere in the EU.

As long as the car is UK-legal ie current tax/MOT, there would be nothing to stop you getting EU-wide Green Card cover from any of the member states while you're travelling - Green Card in this context = EU plus a few other countries, so there might not even be anything to stop you from getting it from a non-EU provider AS LONG AS IT COVERS YOU IN ALL THE GREEN CARD MEMBER STATES.

Also bear in mind - and I am happy to be corrected on this if needs be - that DVLA will tell you that once you are out of the UK for a certain period of time there's a requirement to register (and tax/roadworthiness certificate) the vehicle in the country it's moved to BUT not sure if this applies if you're moving from country to country and not spending more than a month or so in each one. There has been a LOT of discussion re this on the HUBB!

Tony P 23 Nov 2011 21:56

OK - While waiting........
 
INSURANCE aspects relevant to this discussion.
We all can quote second, third and fourth hand anecdotes and experiences etc. I avoid these in researching unless verified – so it is fair of me to state items below in [italic square brackets] fall into the realm of my personal experience, suggestion or opinion.

Insurance is a private contract solely between the Insurer and Policy Holder. What the two parties choose to include is a matter of negotiation between them prior to their acceptance that binds both parties. The UK Government has no say or interest in these contracts (except for IPT !).

Insurance is one of the very few types of Contract that must be in writing. It is also unusual being a contract ‘of the utmost good faith’ between parties; which means not withholding any relevant information, otherwise the contract could be flawed and not enforceable.

Moving to what is commonly known as Motor Insurance, and for the present purpose I mean that to be as required for use on UK public roads –

As the contract terms include cover using a vehicle on UK public roads there are certain requirements laid out in Acts and SIs that the Insurer must provide, include or abide by. These are mainly about Insurers minimum liability limits, Certificates, MIB Database information, etc.

There is no automatic obligation to include ‘Green Cards’ for 365, 60, 30 or even 1 day unless it is one of the written T&Cs agreed upon by the two parties prior to Acceptance or later agreed and included as a variation with written confirmation.
EU freedom of movement rules seek that road-use Motor Insurance in one member State should include the very minimum legal cover in other member States in the event of higher levels of insurance not being within the contract.

Not having a current ‘tax’ (Road Fund Licence) does not invalidate the insurance contract.

Not having a current MOT certificate does not, per-se, invalidate the insurance contract.

One agreed T&C condition would invariably be that the vehicle is maintained in sufficient mechanical condition, including legally required condition – at all times. There is no ‘legal’ obligation imposed by Law for a vehicle to have a valid MOT as a condition of the insurance contract. An MOT requirement may be specifically written as a T&C, agreed upon by the two parties, but in my experience this is unusual. So unusual I have not seen it and thinking about it, some insurers may decline such a condition preferring to rely on the far more reaching ‘sufficient and appropriate mechanical condition’ as a current on-going circumstance sooner than only on one date, up to nearly 400 days ago.

What an Insurer will try to do in the event of a claim is look at all aspects to see if they are contractually bound to pay the claim (in simple terms – look at the small print for something to ‘wriggle’ out of paying). Part of this would be to ask for the MOT to gauge if the vehicle was mechanically to MOT standard, even if 397 days ago. Another reason to ask for it can be as an indication of mileage and therefore value, in the event of a total loss [as in theft or fire] where total mileage cannot be otherwise verified.

If the Insurers inspection engineers find a claim arose directly from a result of a mechanical defect that would have been detected by a test and there was no current MOT certificate, the insurer would decline to pay the claim.
However if that defect had no bearing on the event they would be bound to honour their side of the contract – but they will probably try it on first! [A few years back I had a car burn out when parked following what engineers decided to have been a faulty battery. The MOT had recently expired so they tried it on stating no current MOT and said NO. I pointed out a battery was not part of the test and then got paid out in full based on the BMW garage’s service records for mileage and upkeep.]

[The simplest example is of a failed rear brake light bulb. This is no reason to decline liability arising from a ‘head-on’. In such an incident, a defect within the brakes, steering or suspension, even front lights, would be good reason to decline. Particularly if it would have been apparent on a MOT inspection even if not apparent to a reasonable Policy Holder or permitted driver. Contrast this with a bald or seriously underinflated tyre which any driver should be aware of following a basic visual check prior to starting any journey].

Bear in mind a MOT is a certificate of a minimum standard only on the day of the test – faults can develop during the MOT certificate’s period of validity of up to 397 days. That would not affect an Insurers liability to pay unless the Insured was otherwise reasonably aware of the fault, or should have been [such as the aforementioned bald tyre].

mustaphapint 24 Nov 2011 10:52

You make a very good case, Tony, as a basis for arguing in a court of law, but that is a situation I'm sure most of us would prefer to avoid, especially in a foreign country. In Brittany where I travel frequently the police there know all about UK road tax and they will expect any UK registered car to have it as well as a ferry ticket proving they entered France less than 6 months ago. They are clamping down on "illegal" drivers not particularly to penalise a long distance traveller returning from a long trip but to catch the number of local drivers who have had their UK registered cars in France long after the 6 months grace has expired.
However just in case my road tax should expire the next time I'm over there and I'm stuck at the roadside in conversation with a Gendarme about to impound my car could anyone tell me the French translation for the following:-
"It's OK officer, my mate Tony from HU assures me that your government is wrong and it's perfectly legal to drive on your roads without tax or mot" :-)

cyber-zebb 24 Nov 2011 16:11

360 day green card cover
 
Hi Ted if you insure through e bike you get 360 day green card cover in the Eu countrys , i spent 3+ months riding the old eastern block countrys in 09 if you want more info pm me (ps i only live round the corner from you

zebb

silver G 24 Nov 2011 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 356855)
"UK legal"

Define please.

I have spent/wasted many an hour on these technical arguemts, many with officials and bureaucrats. Some I have won and some failed miserably. However when abroad, working in a foreign language trying to have fun and adventure the last thing I need is an over zealous cop wanting to book me for not having proper paperwork and that goes double for europe. Africa I can deal with in an 'african ' way but the EU law enforcement officers can make your life hell if they want to. Given that we are part of the EU I prefer to save arguing the finer points of the law untill I get back.

Forgive me if I have misused terms - I'm not a lawyer, just a traveler.

Redboots 24 Nov 2011 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 356919)
INSURANCE aspects relevant to this discussion........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............

I think you miss the point.
You are Johhny foreigner outside your own country and someone asks for your documenti... If its not in order or in a format they understand, it will be hassle. (Another good reason to get a ICMV if you are from the UK... it just "eases" your passage)

It is still a requirement within EU member states that the vehicle complies with the legal requirements of the country of its registration. Be that as a tourist or business man/woman.

In 99% of cases they wont know or shiv a git about road tax.
The MOT or "Safety Certificate" is becoming more common as just over 50% of EU states have them for cars... less have them for motorcycle - France for instance.

The green card is just to satisfy member countries that you have third party liability cover.


John

Tony P 24 Nov 2011 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redboots (Post 357019)
I think you miss the point.
You are Johhny foreigner outside your own country and someone asks for your documenti...

No I do not miss the point.

My point is to make oneself fully aware of what the Law actually states - not what someone heard from a friend, who met a person in a pub who may have read something about someone, who might just have ..... and so on.

Documenti? Don't tell me!
I now live in a country with huge personal freedom, unlike (very sadly) the oppressive, watched, regulated, controlled society that now prevails where I came from.

Despite this, driving around (it's sub zero 24/7 until April, so not riding too much!) in a UK registered car I get stopped more than daily for "Documenti pajalastr" by bribe hungry cops. It actually also happens in our RUS registered car, but probably less than monthly. These guys are reportedly paid $75 a month yet there is a queue of applicants - the perks opportunities make up for it!

I ensure my paperwork and knowledge is up to date and 'take no siht". They are then uncomfortably, out of their own environment, and cannot cope, particularly when, even with my poor Russian, I start detailing regulations.

The point is not to be bullied into submission and to not be so you must be certain and confident with first hand information. I make it my goal to have this.

That's why I asked for citations that, interestingly as if to prove my point, no one has ben able to provide.


Give me a few hours (it is past 2am here) and if anyone is interested they will see a post of mine soon giving a brief summary of foreign road use regulations - citing the actual sources etc.
That's far more than has been produced by those who 'knock' what I say. No offence taken, Guys.

While getting it into reasonably brief and understandable form, perhaps, as an example following some of the responses, at least one of the "France experts" can direct me to which Article of Le Code de la Route applies for not having a current MOT in France for your UK registered, 3+ year old moto? Particularly interesting as all French registered motos never require a contrôle technique (last time I looked). Yet they are telling me here I must have it - so there must be an actual Law and penalty if I do not. Find it and I'll respect you more!

I would venture to suggest you don’t know, your quoted Gendarme doesn’t know either – because there is none!

Sorry for the long winded posts - but to be accurate with difficult or complex topics, one line is simply not possible.

I'll be back

Oh – TED.
Look here. Frequently Asked Questions


The MIB is the 'trade body' for UK Motor Insurance prviders. Despite their intersts vesting with their Members, it is better information than you are likely to receive on Bulletin Boards.





ilesmark 25 Nov 2011 12:13

Hey Tony - have a look at this

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/as...oninternet.jpg

Only messing with you :rofl:. Looking forward to that drink bier

Redboots 25 Nov 2011 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 357027)
I would venture to suggest you don’t know, your quoted Gendarme doesn’t know either – because there is none!

That because all this stuff comes from EU Directives! As we all know, France ignores most of these:innocent:

Read this:

This article is written by an Anglo French Lawyer with over thirty years experince of European Legislation. It was first published in the Riviera Reporter.


"It is not obligatory to register a foreign vehicle in France unless the owner is resident in France. A resident is someone who is domiciled in France for more than six months (183 days) per year, who is employed in France, or has made a recognised and deemed permanent move toward residency in France (ie has no domicile in the country of origin, severed other ties with that country that indicate an intention to leave it with permanence). Under EU law, a private vehicle may be temporarily imported and used on French roads for up to six months in any 12 month period. The vehicle must be re-registered in France if it is owned and used by a resident of France. It is against the law for the resident of an EU country, while in that country, to drive any vehicle registered in another EU country. So a person who is a resident of France may only drive a French-registered car while they are in France (with the exception of cross-border workers). An EU-registered vehicle must satisfy the legal roadworthiness requirements of its country of registration to be legal to drive elsewhere in the EU.

There will be some canteen lawyers who will try to add or detract from this I have no doubt, I can only say that I have practiced law for over thirty years and the above is my understanding of the agreed EU regulations.

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what qualifies a person to be classified as a French resident - the legal standpoint, in my experience, is that even if you have only been in France for one week, if your intention is to be a permanent resident and you have made efforts to that end (selling your UK home, terminating tax responsibilities, etc) then you are deemed to be a resident of France per se. From that point you must register your UK vehicle in France. It is also to be noted that you will nullify your UK car insurance and MOT the moment you enter France with the intention of being a permanent resident (unless you have made provision with your insurers beforehand).

The 183 day (6 month) limit has been set to deal with people who spend lengthy periods in more than one country and abuse different legislation to avoid various local taxes. The UK road tax is a perfect example, a French registered vehicle owned by a UK resident pays no road tax in the UK, that person may only actually spend a very small period of time in France, therefore the Law states if that person spends more than 183 days in the UK then they are deemed to be a UK resident and the vehicle should be on UK plates and paying UK road tax, not hiding that responsibility in France - and that 183 days need not be continuous but in total.


If you are not asleep yet, this should be interesting and looks like the bit that any EU travelers should be aware of:

DIRECTIVE 2009/103/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 16 September 2009
relating to insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of motor vehicles, and the enforcement of the obligation to insure against such liability

Article 14

Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that all compulsory policies of insurance against civil liability arising out of the use of vehicles:
(a) cover, on the basis of a single premium and during the whole term of the contract, the entire territory of the Community, including for any period in which the vehicle remains in other Member States during the term of the contract; and
(b) guarantee, on the basis of that single premium, in each Member State, the cover required by its law or the cover required by the law of the Member State where the vehicle is normally based when that cover is higher.

This is not general knowledge and is certainly not publicised by insurance companies for obvious reasons. :D



John

ilesmark 25 Nov 2011 15:44

I am sure the OP won't be spending as long as 183 days in any 1 member state but, if he does, then good to bear the above in mind.

If a) the OP (or anyone else) spends over 183 days in any 1 member state (or evidences an intention to take up permanent residence there within that time) and b) then has an accident, the UK insurer might seek to deny the claim on the basis he should have re-registered the vehicle - and reinsured it - in the other state.

mustaphapint 25 Nov 2011 17:32

Since we've long since drifted away from the OP's question I thought I'd throw this in.
Apparently it is illegal for a UK resident to drive a foreign registered vehicle in the UK.
I'm a UK resident and as well as my UK registered bikes and car I also own a French registered car and bike which are kept in France. According to the DVLA I'm not legally allowed to drive/ride either of my French vehicles in the UK, even though my French insurance says it will cover me.

Tony P 25 Nov 2011 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilesmark (Post 357065)
Hey Tony - have a look at this

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/as...oninternet.jpg

Only messing with you Looking forward to that drink

LOL
Actually the time was not that bad. I live here mainly on UK time during the week as I spend large chunks of my time following UK Stock and Bullion markets.

Beer. YES.
Until then at least I open my bottles of Pride 4 hours earlier here!bier
And it works out cheaper than in a UK pub!

Tony P 25 Nov 2011 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redboots (Post 357073)
That because all this stuff comes from EU Directives! As we all know, France ignores most of these

100% but no problem with me - apart from inconsistency
Quote:

Originally Posted by Redboots (Post 357073)

Read this:
This article is written by an Anglo French Lawyer with over thirty years experince of European Legislation. It was first published in the Riviera Reporter.
"It is not obligatory to register a foreign vehicle in France unless the owner is resident in France. A resident is someone who is domiciled in France for more than six months (183 days) per year, who is employed in France, or has made a recognised and deemed permanent move toward residency in France (ie has no domicile in the country of origin, severed other ties with that country that indicate an intention to leave it with permanence). Under EU law, a private vehicle may be temporarily imported and used on French roads for up to six months in any 12 month period. The vehicle must be re-registered in France if it is owned and used by a resident of France. It is against the law for the resident of an EU country, while in that country, to drive any vehicle registered in another EU country. So a person who is a resident of France may only drive a French-registered car while they are in France (with the exception of cross-border workers). An EU-registered vehicle must satisfy the legal roadworthiness requirements of its country of registration to be legal to drive elsewhere in the EU.

There will be some canteen lawyers who will try to add or detract from this I have no doubt, I can only say that I have practiced law for over thirty years and the above is my understanding of the agreed EU regulations.

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what qualifies a person to be classified as a French resident - the legal standpoint, in my experience, is that even if you have only been in France for one week, if your intention is to be a permanent resident and you have made efforts to that end (selling your UK home, terminating tax responsibilities, etc) then you are deemed to be a resident of France per se. From that point you must register your UK vehicle in France. It is also to be noted that you will nullify your UK car insurance and MOT the moment you enter France with the intention of being a permanent resident (unless you have made provision with your insurers beforehand).

The 183 day (6 month) limit has been set to deal with people who spend lengthy periods in more than one country and abuse different legislation to avoid various local taxes. The UK road tax is a perfect example, a French registered vehicle owned by a UK resident pays no road tax in the UK, that person may only actually spend a very small period of time in France, therefore the Law states if that person spends more than 183 days in the UK then they are deemed to be a UK resident and the vehicle should be on UK plates and paying UK road tax, not hiding that responsibility in France - and that 183 days need not be continuous but in total.


I said last night "not what someone heard from a friend, who met a person in a pub who may have read something about someone, who might just have ..... and so on."
However what is written is largely in accord with what I have said.

Note the section I have highlighted. It refers to " legal roadworthiness requirements". Not the documentation requirement to demonstrate that, but the actual roadworthiness. Never is a piece of paper part of a vehicles roadworthyness, otherwise I for one would never go near a vehicle!

If 'push came to shove
' it would be for a foreign authority to ascertain the requirement and then enforce it in the context of their home Laws - not for the driver to educate them or wave unrecognised bits of paper at him. Otherwise the Author, with the precision of the Lawyer he says he is, would have introduced demonstrate or prove into his text.

Thankfully for us all, foreign language documents are less recognised and more accepted for any purpose the further you are from the source territory.
[I have used UK Public Library membership cards to obtain Student discounts in France and Russia and free admissions in Africa! The Bklockbuster Video card is still in reserve!]

Residence has many meanings for many purposes. Sadly there is no standard all-embracing definition of UK Resident, be it for HMR&C, Probate, National Health, Pensions, DVLA or other purposes Each picks what suits their specific purpose and some even refuse to specifically define it, leaving their options open. Other countries rules can vary so you could even be Resident in several countries at the same time for the same purpose.

The final paragraph is outside my comments here or on other threads - but I wholeheartedly agree with it. I come from a position of preferring to know the Law sooner than ignorantly disregard it. Disregarding is then is a fully ionformed, private decision (and in some circumstances I might). (And do!!!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redboots (Post 357073)
If you are not asleep yet, this should be interesting and looks like the bit that any EU travelers should be aware of:
DIRECTIVE 2009/103/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 16 September 2009
relating to insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of motor vehicles, and the enforcement of the obligation to insure against such liability

Article 14

Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that all compulsory policies of insurance against civil liability arising out of the use of vehicles:
(a) cover, on the basis of a single premium and during the whole term of the contract, the entire territory of the Community, including for any period in which the vehicle remains in other Member States during the term of the contract; and
(b) guarantee, on the basis of that single premium, in each Member State, the cover required by its law or the cover required by the law of the Member State where the vehicle is normally based when that cover is higher.

This is not general knowledge and is certainly not publicised by insurance companies for obvious reasons.

My last night's post said "one member State should include the very minimum legal cover in other member States" . Note my carefully chosen word 'should'.
Total agreement
:D
This paragraph will be of use to Ted in answer to his original opening post, although much interst seems to have strayed away from that. (Sorry Ted)
--------------------------------

John, thank you for your own research and citation. I appreciate it with respect.

I hope others do the same to be safe in their own knowledge they are acting within the Law as it really is - not as some control freak officials might wish it were.

I will come back as promised, but not tonight - Moscow time now, as it is weekend!
beer

I'll be back
:gunsmilie:

TP

PS. I prefer riding my bike to all this.
:)

mustaphapint 25 Nov 2011 21:04

EU vehicles that are being used within or between Community Member States are allowed, under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or pay duties in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a 12 month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country.

source of data
Motor insurance for visiting and imported vehicles : Directgov - Motoring

Tony P 25 Nov 2011 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustaphapint (Post 357098)
Since we've long since drifted away from the OP's question I thought I'd throw this in.
Apparently it is illegal for a UK resident to drive a foreign registered vehicle in the UK.
I'm a UK resident and as well as my UK registered bikes and car I also own a French registered car and bike which are kept in France. According to the DVLA I'm not legally allowed to drive/ride either of my French vehicles in the UK, even though my French insurance says it will cover me.

Hi.
This refers to my above post about definitions of Resident.
Basically this is correct except I can find no DVLA definition of Resident (and I have looked) yet they use the term.

On the other hand Police and Customs don't refer to Resident, but state if you are using a Foreign Registered vehicle in UK you must be able to show your entitlement to be so using it in UK.

At first sight this might seem the same - but on analysis it can be very different.

If I bring my RUS registered vehicle to UK I can show my Russia Residency Permit. That should suffice. But no one knows with absolutely certaintity. (I'll return to the topic in my promised summary)
If this same document is sufficient to show entitlement of a Russia Resident to use his Russia registered vehicle as a tourist visiting UK why is the same document not accepted as evidencing non-Residency by the UK Tax authorities who also have (at present) no fixed definition or application of the term non-Resident?

Yet another very murky pool created by the current un-thought out obsession of knee-jerk, burocratic surveillance and control in UK.

The Blair/Brown years will eventually be recorded in the non-immediate future as a pivotal era of change for Britain from which it will not recover its former self.
And I see it growing as long as the unrequested, unelected, unaccountable, unauditable EU remains in total control of you.
(Excuse the rant, just this once!)

ilesmark 25 Nov 2011 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 357116)
And I see it growing as long as the unrequested, unelected, unaccountable, unauditable EU remains in total control of you.

And your thoughts about Putin and Medvedev's guided democracy in today's Russia?????! :offtopic:

Tony P 25 Nov 2011 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilesmark (Post 357123)
And your thoughts about Putin and Medvedev's guided democracy in today's Russia?????!

I dont find society or state oppressive here. I am neither watched nor controlled. The personal freedoms and responsibility are immense.

My favourtie example is a hole in the ground-
-in RUS it is your responsibility to not fall in it. Simple!
-in UK it is the responsibility of the land owner, creater of the hole, the local planning authority, the highways department, the paving contractor, police etc to make sure you get nowhere near it with approved pattern signs, fencing, illumination, safety barriers and so on to ensure you are prevented from getting within a regulation distance of it. And if all that fails there are the ambulance chasers looking to get rich out of your inattention! Simple?

Here it is everyone for themselves at the upper levels.
Totally corrupt. Yes - but that makes the leaders more interested in what they can get sooner than seek a place of fame and respect in World Organisations or the History books by betrayal.

Is it a fact that here is no living honoured Labour ex-Prime Minister?
I wonder why.

Next weeks elections here won't change anything. The following ones might. Another peoples' revolution could just, just happen at some time ahead, sparked by any of numerous things. As greed gets rewarded better than ethics, all the way down the scale, it is unlikely as people cling on to their little bit of the system and aspire to climb it. In the meantime, people understand and enjoy great freedoms. I appreciate that as much as the people we both met away from big cities.
Moscow rocks too!!

Yes :offtopic:but let's continue it over some Fullers some day!
(How I miss proper ungassed draught bitter)

Tony P 25 Nov 2011 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustaphapint (Post 357114)
EU vehicles that are being used within or between Community Member States are allowed, under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or pay duties in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a 12 month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country.
source of data

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustaphapint (Post 357114)



Yep.

Good find.

Exactly.

Just as I maintain - except it is headed "visiting and imported vehicles" into UK. I thought we were talking about using UK registered vehicles out of UK.

But be wary of DirectGov - they say what suits them not necessarily what the Law says.

What has the force of UK Law - a WebSite or an Act of Parliament?

The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says 'tax' is only necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as certain roads specific to and within the UK. No definition is given for "Public Roads" in France, Russia or the Moon where, so by elimiination there are none that qualify and therefore 'tax' is not due if using roads there.
Compare that with DirectGov's WebSite on 'tax' abroad.

However what has arisen from this is that there is an acknowleged flaw in the legistation (as my old post on another thread) that is exploited by DVLA to gather out of Court settlement "penalties" to supplement their internal budget, whereas if it went to Court they would not receive any Fines inposed on those who do not turn up to contest it - these go direct to Central Government. [I have Case references where DVLA, in slightly different circumstabces, offer a reduced settlement at the Court door if the Defendant is there. If he refuses but persists in seeing it through, they withdraw the case once inside. Crown Courts on appeal too, where an adverse decision becomes a fixed Legal Precedent that anyone can quote and follow!! No wonder they back off - it's wrong at Law and they prefer their scam.]

Look at the words - "Registration and Licensing requirements"
That, to me, refers to the V5C stuff and permits.

Further, 83/182's use of the term "Duties". That covers duties due on importation/first registration. Import duties and VAT have always been administered by HM Customs And Excise (now merged into HMR&C) ''road tax" has not! A Road Fund License, is neither a Tax nor a Duty, terminology carefully avoided in enforcing legislation in this context - it is a current charge not required other than for using specific defined roads, like a toll charge. Use the appropriate roads included and you must pay - don't use them and you do not need to pay.


It really a matter of if you prefer to know the Law for sure or are simply happy to roll over with legs wide apart in the air.

I know where I come from on this. How about you?

(It's even later tonight, but weekend tomorrow!):D

Tony P 29 Nov 2011 21:58

Sorry, Guys.,
You are not forgotten - just been busy, and tomorrow am off to StPete til next week.

I'll be back to this thread, as promised

Alexlebrit 30 Nov 2011 00:08

It's a long thread, so forgive me if it's been mentioned, but in all this discussion about the law I don't think anyone has mentioned the contact you have between yourself and your underwriter.

Surely the Bennetts 3-mods debacle would suggest that your underwriter is the one who decides whether you're insured or not? The EU directive cited above implies that it is up to member states to ensure through their insurance regulators that your underwriter provides you with the minimum cover required, but is that in all cases? Or can the require certain conditions to be met? And can those include a requirement for up to date paperwork?

Might be worth asking...

ilesmark 30 Nov 2011 13:51

I would bet money that ANY EU insurer will tell you that, in order for your insurance to remain active either in the member state where you took out the cover or in another one, the vehicle must comply with the road tax / roadworthiness certification requirements in the state where it is registered.

Although, as Tony P et al will doubtless point out, whether the insurer would get away with denying cover in the even of a claim when the vehicle doesn't have for eg a current MOT certificate AND the accident wasn't caused by anything that would have been picked up if it did is a moot point.

*Touring Ted* 30 Nov 2011 14:34

A valid MOT is something I am definitely going to have. With out one, the insurers could claim the car was not road worthy... Even though having one if no proof that it is, it goes a long way in your favour to have one.

Tax has no bearing on the safety of the car/driver.. I'm not taxing a vehicle outside of the U.K.. No way.

ilesmark 30 Nov 2011 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* (Post 357749)
Tax has no bearing on the safety of the car/driver.. I'm not taxing a vehicle outside of the U.K.. No way.

That is as maybe, but bear in mind you might get in trouble with the local police if you get pulled, owing to the EU law that others have already pointed out ie that a vehicle must comply with the rules in its state of registration when being used in another member state.

Not sure if this applies - it probably doesn't - in those countries outside the EU which are members of the Green Card scheme.

John933 6 Mar 2012 17:13

Just a little antdope here. I was in HM Forces station in Germany. Most of us if not all had UK insurance with a year green card. No road tax, But had a BFG ( British forces Germany ) sticker in the window, where the tax disk would go, The car's where tested by HM Force's to a standard of the UK MOT. So on the unserstanding that something like this is still in place. A year's Grean card is posibale. No you don't need road tax. But you need an MOT. When you get back to the UK. Just pop in to the local post office and buy the tax. As for Swansea. A call could be on the card's as to the SORN part of no road tax.

Hope this is of help.
John933

Redboots 6 Mar 2012 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* (Post 357749)
Tax has no bearing on the safety of the car/driver.. I'm not taxing a vehicle outside of the U.K.. No way.

Safety, no, but it still has to be legal in the country of origin. Plenty of pikie Brits here in France flouting the laws, until they have an accident:clap:

How will you resolve the SORN status? It now cover insurance as well. ie if not insured it must be SORN'ed, ditto for tax. Will the computer system flag it if it see's that its insured but not taxed. Are they that on the ball?

Cheers,
John

nikos 2 Apr 2012 15:33

There is always the option of a new bike - 3 years of use pre first MoT? £££

Walkabout 2 Apr 2012 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redboots (Post 370251)
How will you resolve the SORN status? It now cover insurance as well. ie if not insured it must be SORN'ed, ditto for tax. Will the computer system flag it if it see's that its insured but not taxed. Are they that on the ball?

Cheers,
John

Frequently in the past I have had vehicles, 4 and 2 wheel, declared off road i.e. SORNed, but I have not always cancelled the relevant insurance cover; in this way those vehicles were covered against fire and theft even though they are not in use on public roads while under the SORN.
This was before the days of the insurance industry making their database available to the DVLA, but I would consider doing that again if I made a SORN statement.
Therefore, my guess is that there are lots of vehicles in the UK at any particular time that are insured but SORNed, especially motorbikes tucked away in warm garages for the winter, but still insured against fire and theft.
I guess, theoretically, I could put, say, a SORNed motorcycle into a van take it overseas and use it there (the same would apply to, say, a 4 wheeled vehicle on a trailer that is taken away from the UK).

Regarding SORN, Fern brings up some good information in post number 101 in this thread:-
http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...g-term-39472-7
I haven't checked her input because she quotes her own research and link, which I trust she has got right! :smartass:


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