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*Touring Ted* 22 Nov 2011 19:26

Overstaying 60 day 'Greencard' in Europe with U.K insurance
 
Hey all...

Can anyone throw me some info here..

I want to travel a lot in Europe next year... I have U.K insurance which gives me 60 days 'Green card' in Europe.

I want to stay way over 60 days. What do I do ???

Surely I don't have to buy insurance in each country?

All other continents I have travelled issue insurance at the border. At a guess, Europe being Europe, it's going to be Mega expensive and a total bureaucratic ball ache ?

Also, do I need valid U.K road Tax, MOT etc etc ??

Many thanks in advance

Ted

silver G 22 Nov 2011 20:35

Unless you stay out of the UK for more than a year (in which case that would be a permanent export) then you need tax, insurance and mot as if it were in the UK. If your mot runs out and you can't tax it while abroad the DVLA say you must trailer from the port of entry.
It used to be that one could book an mot at your local garage and 'drive' to it from the port - be interesting to here if anyone has done this recently.
Have you talked to your insurer - they should be able to quote at least.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring...cle/DG_4022582

Niva Say Never 22 Nov 2011 21:36

If you're traveling on a green card issued by your uk insurer, then for sure it needs to be uk legal (tax and mot).
Depending how much more you need, would they let you pay for an extension?

Tony P 22 Nov 2011 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by silver G (Post 356800)
Unless you stay out of the UK for more than a year (in which case that would be a permanent export) then you need tax, insurance and mot as if it were in the UK. If your mot runs out and you can't tax it while abroad the DVLA say you must trailer from the port of entry.
It used to be that one could book an mot at your local garage and 'drive' to it from the port - be interesting to here if anyone has done this recently.
Have you talked to your insurer - they should be able to quote at least.

Taking a vehicle out of the UK permanently or temporarily : Directgov - Motoring

Sorry but this is mostly, if not completely, nonsence.

Direct Gov would like you to pay 'tax' because the Government likes motorists to pay money to them.
But The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says 'tax' is only necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as, “in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a road which is repairable at the public expense”. In Scotland the definition is slightly different due to differing set-ups. There is no definition for a Public Road in France, Russia or the Moon - so 'tax' is not a legal necessity outside the UK under the very Act that makes it necessary in UK.
However see the full story in my post #89 here http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...g-term-39472-6

I recently drove an untaxed (by a few days), un MOTd car from the Channel Tunnel to a pre-booked test in north London then on to South Buckinghamshire where I went to a Post Office to apply for new tax. I passed numerous Police cars of Kent, Metropolitan, Hertfordshire (which procalimed ANPR) and Thames Valley police forces and a strange looking van with an open window on one rear door in a roadside lay-by (probably either a Camera van or ANPR reading).


Ted.
Apart from my post above re MOT and Tax that is amply covered in the link above, your UK policy should automatically give you minimum legally required insurance in other EU member states. This is an EU requirement.
Look at the reverse of your Certificate of Insurance which confirms. Those statements in several languages are accepted in all EU states, not just those using those languages. I have had to produce it in Estonia, Finland and Latvia - none of whose languages are used.

Your Green Card is two things -
1. An internationally recognised Insurance Certificate.
2. Confirmation of extention of your full cover (Comprehensive,TPFT, TP, RTA etc), not just the legal minimum, in the countries and periods mentioned thereon.
When it becomes date expired the normal EU 'legal minimum' will kick in until the main policy comes up for renewal.
This applies to all EU states, plus Switzerland, Norway (possibly Iceland and others) but not all the non-EU balkan countries where you should buy at the border.

Redboots 22 Nov 2011 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* (Post 356794)
I want to stay way over 60 days. What do I do ???

Surely I don't have to buy insurance in each country?

Also, do I need valid U.K road Tax, MOT etc etc ??

For an EU vehicle to be legal anywhere within the EU it has to be legal in the country of origin... tax/mot/insurance/rego
There are loads of Brits running around France/Spain that have no UK road tax, local MOT's and who knows what insurance... You wouldn't want to be hit by one... They are all just dirtying our name even more:nono:

On the insurance front, is it an actual green card or the "international certificate of insurance the Brit companies issue? Does it have Specified dates on it? If not, you have only been there a couple of weeks from before the point you NEED it:thumbup1:

Depending how far you go... Ukraine? UE insisted on my mate buying insurance as he did not have a "green card" but the said bit of paper - ICMI - (white). I had a French green card and no problems with them seeing it as valid.

I think the Balkans are excluded from a lot of GC's so you need to buy as you go. Just depends on the issuing country/company


Its possible you can get a GC from the ADAC in Germany... you might get one that covers all/most of your needs. Call them.

Cheers,
John

silver G 22 Nov 2011 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 356805)
Sorry but this is mostly, if not completely, nonsence.

Direct Gov would like you to pay 'tax' because the Government likes motorists to pay money to them.
But The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says 'tax' is only necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as, “in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a road which is repairable at the public expense”. In Scotland the definition is slightly different due to differing set-ups. There is no definition for a Public Road in France, Russia or the Moon - so 'tax' is not a legal necessity outside the UK under the very Act that makes it necessary in UK.
However see the full story in my post #89 here http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...g-term-39472-6

I recently drove an untaxed (by a few days), un MOTd car from the Channel Tunnel to a pre-booked test in north London then on to South Buckinghamshire where I went to a Post Office to apply for new tax. I passed numerous Police cars of Kent, Metropolitan, Hertfordshire (which procalimed ANPR) and Thames Valley police forces and a strange looking van with an open window on one rear door in a roadside lay-by (probably either a Camera van or ANPR reading).


Ted.
Apart from my post above re MOT and Tax that is amply covered in the link above, your UK policy should automatically give you minimum legally required insurance in other EU member states. This is an EU requirement.
Look at the reverse of your Certificate of Insurance which confirms. Those statements in several languages are accepted in all EU states, not just those using those languages. I have had to produce it in Estonia, Finland and Latvia - none of whose languages are used.

Your Green Card is two things -
1. An internationally recognised Insurance Certificate.
2. Confirmation of extention of your full cover (Comprehensive,TPFT, TP, RTA etc), not just the legal minimum, in the countries and periods mentioned thereon.
When it becomes date expired the normal EU 'legal minimum' will kick in until the main policy comes up for renewal.
This applies to all EU states, plus Switzerland, Norway (possibly Iceland and others) but not all the non-EU balkan countries where you should buy at the border.


I agree with your sentiments Tony but if you want your UK insurance to be valid then you will have to be uk legal.

mustaphapint 22 Nov 2011 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by silver G (Post 356807)
I agree with your sentiments Tony but if you want your UK insurance to be valid then you will have to be uk legal.

I also agree with your sentiments Tony but I would not like to advise someone to risk being pulled and have their vehicle confiscated as a finale to their grand trip. I agree that UK insurance should cover you for the legal minimum whilst within the EU, but riding (or driving) without tax and MOT in the EU and relying on your UK insurance to cover you is taking a risk. Take the risk by all means if you choose, but be well aware you are taking a risk.

*Touring Ted* 23 Nov 2011 06:09

Thanks Chaps...

Well, my insurance WILL be 'UK' valid for the whole period that I am away.

SOOOOO. Are you all saying that no matter what the insurance company stipulates about '60 days European', I will be insured to a minimum level ? But more importantly, I'll be LEGAL.. No matter how long I am in Europe ?

As for TAX and MOT. My MOT is due is due a few weeks before I go so I suppose I'll just get it and the tax too. It's an extra £250 I didn't want to pay but I guess it's better to have it than not eh... I know insurance companies will look for ANY loop hole to get out paying up so I guess having these closes those avenues for them.

Thanks again, Ted

Tony P 23 Nov 2011 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by silver G (Post 356807)
I agree with your sentiments Tony but if you want your UK insurance to be valid then you will have to be uk legal.

"UK legal"

Define please.

mustaphapint 23 Nov 2011 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony P (Post 356855)
"UK legal"

Define please.

Legal in the vehicle's home country. If the home country is the UK is means insured, MOT'd and taxed

Tony P 23 Nov 2011 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustaphapint (Post 356861)
Legal in the vehicle's home country. If the home country is the UK is means insured, MOT'd and taxed

Thanks for responding.
To take the discussion forward accurately, for the benefit of all, I would prefer to hear a more precise definition from you.
I could already query that on a number of grounds and examples.
But I won't until we all know exactly what is being contended and the basis.
I will respond further then.

Statute citation(s) please.

ilesmark 23 Nov 2011 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* (Post 356846)
Are you all saying that no matter what the insurance company stipulates about '60 days European', I will be insured to a minimum level ? But more importantly, I'll be LEGAL.. No matter how long I am in Europe ?

My 2-pennoth, FWIW, is that the 60 Days European / Green Card (in the parlance of your UK insurance co) refers to comprehensive cover (which UK and all other EU insurers are free to cover you or not cover you for as it's above the legal minumum of 3rd party) and that once this expires you revert to the legal minumum of 3rd party outside the UK but elsewhere in the EU.

As long as the car is UK-legal ie current tax/MOT, there would be nothing to stop you getting EU-wide Green Card cover from any of the member states while you're travelling - Green Card in this context = EU plus a few other countries, so there might not even be anything to stop you from getting it from a non-EU provider AS LONG AS IT COVERS YOU IN ALL THE GREEN CARD MEMBER STATES.

Also bear in mind - and I am happy to be corrected on this if needs be - that DVLA will tell you that once you are out of the UK for a certain period of time there's a requirement to register (and tax/roadworthiness certificate) the vehicle in the country it's moved to BUT not sure if this applies if you're moving from country to country and not spending more than a month or so in each one. There has been a LOT of discussion re this on the HUBB!

Tony P 23 Nov 2011 21:56

OK - While waiting........
 
INSURANCE aspects relevant to this discussion.
We all can quote second, third and fourth hand anecdotes and experiences etc. I avoid these in researching unless verified – so it is fair of me to state items below in [italic square brackets] fall into the realm of my personal experience, suggestion or opinion.

Insurance is a private contract solely between the Insurer and Policy Holder. What the two parties choose to include is a matter of negotiation between them prior to their acceptance that binds both parties. The UK Government has no say or interest in these contracts (except for IPT !).

Insurance is one of the very few types of Contract that must be in writing. It is also unusual being a contract ‘of the utmost good faith’ between parties; which means not withholding any relevant information, otherwise the contract could be flawed and not enforceable.

Moving to what is commonly known as Motor Insurance, and for the present purpose I mean that to be as required for use on UK public roads –

As the contract terms include cover using a vehicle on UK public roads there are certain requirements laid out in Acts and SIs that the Insurer must provide, include or abide by. These are mainly about Insurers minimum liability limits, Certificates, MIB Database information, etc.

There is no automatic obligation to include ‘Green Cards’ for 365, 60, 30 or even 1 day unless it is one of the written T&Cs agreed upon by the two parties prior to Acceptance or later agreed and included as a variation with written confirmation.
EU freedom of movement rules seek that road-use Motor Insurance in one member State should include the very minimum legal cover in other member States in the event of higher levels of insurance not being within the contract.

Not having a current ‘tax’ (Road Fund Licence) does not invalidate the insurance contract.

Not having a current MOT certificate does not, per-se, invalidate the insurance contract.

One agreed T&C condition would invariably be that the vehicle is maintained in sufficient mechanical condition, including legally required condition – at all times. There is no ‘legal’ obligation imposed by Law for a vehicle to have a valid MOT as a condition of the insurance contract. An MOT requirement may be specifically written as a T&C, agreed upon by the two parties, but in my experience this is unusual. So unusual I have not seen it and thinking about it, some insurers may decline such a condition preferring to rely on the far more reaching ‘sufficient and appropriate mechanical condition’ as a current on-going circumstance sooner than only on one date, up to nearly 400 days ago.

What an Insurer will try to do in the event of a claim is look at all aspects to see if they are contractually bound to pay the claim (in simple terms – look at the small print for something to ‘wriggle’ out of paying). Part of this would be to ask for the MOT to gauge if the vehicle was mechanically to MOT standard, even if 397 days ago. Another reason to ask for it can be as an indication of mileage and therefore value, in the event of a total loss [as in theft or fire] where total mileage cannot be otherwise verified.

If the Insurers inspection engineers find a claim arose directly from a result of a mechanical defect that would have been detected by a test and there was no current MOT certificate, the insurer would decline to pay the claim.
However if that defect had no bearing on the event they would be bound to honour their side of the contract – but they will probably try it on first! [A few years back I had a car burn out when parked following what engineers decided to have been a faulty battery. The MOT had recently expired so they tried it on stating no current MOT and said NO. I pointed out a battery was not part of the test and then got paid out in full based on the BMW garage’s service records for mileage and upkeep.]

[The simplest example is of a failed rear brake light bulb. This is no reason to decline liability arising from a ‘head-on’. In such an incident, a defect within the brakes, steering or suspension, even front lights, would be good reason to decline. Particularly if it would have been apparent on a MOT inspection even if not apparent to a reasonable Policy Holder or permitted driver. Contrast this with a bald or seriously underinflated tyre which any driver should be aware of following a basic visual check prior to starting any journey].

Bear in mind a MOT is a certificate of a minimum standard only on the day of the test – faults can develop during the MOT certificate’s period of validity of up to 397 days. That would not affect an Insurers liability to pay unless the Insured was otherwise reasonably aware of the fault, or should have been [such as the aforementioned bald tyre].

mustaphapint 24 Nov 2011 10:52

You make a very good case, Tony, as a basis for arguing in a court of law, but that is a situation I'm sure most of us would prefer to avoid, especially in a foreign country. In Brittany where I travel frequently the police there know all about UK road tax and they will expect any UK registered car to have it as well as a ferry ticket proving they entered France less than 6 months ago. They are clamping down on "illegal" drivers not particularly to penalise a long distance traveller returning from a long trip but to catch the number of local drivers who have had their UK registered cars in France long after the 6 months grace has expired.
However just in case my road tax should expire the next time I'm over there and I'm stuck at the roadside in conversation with a Gendarme about to impound my car could anyone tell me the French translation for the following:-
"It's OK officer, my mate Tony from HU assures me that your government is wrong and it's perfectly legal to drive on your roads without tax or mot" :-)

cyber-zebb 24 Nov 2011 16:11

360 day green card cover
 
Hi Ted if you insure through e bike you get 360 day green card cover in the Eu countrys , i spent 3+ months riding the old eastern block countrys in 09 if you want more info pm me (ps i only live round the corner from you

zebb


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