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  #16  
Old 24 Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
"UK legal"

Define please.
I have spent/wasted many an hour on these technical arguemts, many with officials and bureaucrats. Some I have won and some failed miserably. However when abroad, working in a foreign language trying to have fun and adventure the last thing I need is an over zealous cop wanting to book me for not having proper paperwork and that goes double for europe. Africa I can deal with in an 'african ' way but the EU law enforcement officers can make your life hell if they want to. Given that we are part of the EU I prefer to save arguing the finer points of the law untill I get back.

Forgive me if I have misused terms - I'm not a lawyer, just a traveler.
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  #17  
Old 24 Nov 2011
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Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
INSURANCE aspects relevant to this discussion........................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............
I think you miss the point.
You are Johhny foreigner outside your own country and someone asks for your documenti... If its not in order or in a format they understand, it will be hassle. (Another good reason to get a ICMV if you are from the UK... it just "eases" your passage)

It is still a requirement within EU member states that the vehicle complies with the legal requirements of the country of its registration. Be that as a tourist or business man/woman.

In 99% of cases they wont know or shiv a git about road tax.
The MOT or "Safety Certificate" is becoming more common as just over 50% of EU states have them for cars... less have them for motorcycle - France for instance.

The green card is just to satisfy member countries that you have third party liability cover.


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  #18  
Old 24 Nov 2011
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Originally Posted by Redboots View Post
I think you miss the point.
You are Johhny foreigner outside your own country and someone asks for your documenti...
No I do not miss the point.

My point is to make oneself fully aware of what the Law actually states - not what someone heard from a friend, who met a person in a pub who may have read something about someone, who might just have ..... and so on.

Documenti? Don't tell me!
I now live in a country with huge personal freedom, unlike (very sadly) the oppressive, watched, regulated, controlled society that now prevails where I came from.

Despite this, driving around (it's sub zero 24/7 until April, so not riding too much!) in a UK registered car I get stopped more than daily for "Documenti pajalastr" by bribe hungry cops. It actually also happens in our RUS registered car, but probably less than monthly. These guys are reportedly paid $75 a month yet there is a queue of applicants - the perks opportunities make up for it!

I ensure my paperwork and knowledge is up to date and 'take no siht". They are then uncomfortably, out of their own environment, and cannot cope, particularly when, even with my poor Russian, I start detailing regulations.

The point is not to be bullied into submission and to not be so you must be certain and confident with first hand information. I make it my goal to have this.

That's why I asked for citations that, interestingly as if to prove my point, no one has ben able to provide.


Give me a few hours (it is past 2am here) and if anyone is interested they will see a post of mine soon giving a brief summary of foreign road use regulations - citing the actual sources etc.
That's far more than has been produced by those who 'knock' what I say. No offence taken, Guys.

While getting it into reasonably brief and understandable form, perhaps, as an example following some of the responses, at least one of the "France experts" can direct me to which Article of Le Code de la Route applies for not having a current MOT in France for your UK registered, 3+ year old moto? Particularly interesting as all French registered motos never require a contrôle technique (last time I looked). Yet they are telling me here I must have it - so there must be an actual Law and penalty if I do not. Find it and I'll respect you more!

I would venture to suggest you don’t know, your quoted Gendarme doesn’t know either – because there is none!

Sorry for the long winded posts - but to be accurate with difficult or complex topics, one line is simply not possible.

I'll be back

Oh – TED.
Look here. Frequently Asked Questions


The MIB is the 'trade body' for UK Motor Insurance prviders. Despite their intersts vesting with their Members, it is better information than you are likely to receive on Bulletin Boards.




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  #19  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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Hey Tony - have a look at this

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/as...oninternet.jpg

Only messing with you . Looking forward to that drink
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  #20  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony P View Post
I would venture to suggest you don’t know, your quoted Gendarme doesn’t know either – because there is none!
That because all this stuff comes from EU Directives! As we all know, France ignores most of these

Read this:

This article is written by an Anglo French Lawyer with over thirty years experince of European Legislation. It was first published in the Riviera Reporter.


"It is not obligatory to register a foreign vehicle in France unless the owner is resident in France. A resident is someone who is domiciled in France for more than six months (183 days) per year, who is employed in France, or has made a recognised and deemed permanent move toward residency in France (ie has no domicile in the country of origin, severed other ties with that country that indicate an intention to leave it with permanence). Under EU law, a private vehicle may be temporarily imported and used on French roads for up to six months in any 12 month period. The vehicle must be re-registered in France if it is owned and used by a resident of France. It is against the law for the resident of an EU country, while in that country, to drive any vehicle registered in another EU country. So a person who is a resident of France may only drive a French-registered car while they are in France (with the exception of cross-border workers). An EU-registered vehicle must satisfy the legal roadworthiness requirements of its country of registration to be legal to drive elsewhere in the EU.

There will be some canteen lawyers who will try to add or detract from this I have no doubt, I can only say that I have practiced law for over thirty years and the above is my understanding of the agreed EU regulations.

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what qualifies a person to be classified as a French resident - the legal standpoint, in my experience, is that even if you have only been in France for one week, if your intention is to be a permanent resident and you have made efforts to that end (selling your UK home, terminating tax responsibilities, etc) then you are deemed to be a resident of France per se. From that point you must register your UK vehicle in France. It is also to be noted that you will nullify your UK car insurance and MOT the moment you enter France with the intention of being a permanent resident (unless you have made provision with your insurers beforehand).

The 183 day (6 month) limit has been set to deal with people who spend lengthy periods in more than one country and abuse different legislation to avoid various local taxes. The UK road tax is a perfect example, a French registered vehicle owned by a UK resident pays no road tax in the UK, that person may only actually spend a very small period of time in France, therefore the Law states if that person spends more than 183 days in the UK then they are deemed to be a UK resident and the vehicle should be on UK plates and paying UK road tax, not hiding that responsibility in France - and that 183 days need not be continuous but in total.


If you are not asleep yet, this should be interesting and looks like the bit that any EU travelers should be aware of:

DIRECTIVE 2009/103/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 16 September 2009
relating to insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of motor vehicles, and the enforcement of the obligation to insure against such liability

Article 14

Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that all compulsory policies of insurance against civil liability arising out of the use of vehicles:
(a) cover, on the basis of a single premium and during the whole term of the contract, the entire territory of the Community, including for any period in which the vehicle remains in other Member States during the term of the contract; and
(b) guarantee, on the basis of that single premium, in each Member State, the cover required by its law or the cover required by the law of the Member State where the vehicle is normally based when that cover is higher.

This is not general knowledge and is certainly not publicised by insurance companies for obvious reasons.



John
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  #21  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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I am sure the OP won't be spending as long as 183 days in any 1 member state but, if he does, then good to bear the above in mind.

If a) the OP (or anyone else) spends over 183 days in any 1 member state (or evidences an intention to take up permanent residence there within that time) and b) then has an accident, the UK insurer might seek to deny the claim on the basis he should have re-registered the vehicle - and reinsured it - in the other state.
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  #22  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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Since we've long since drifted away from the OP's question I thought I'd throw this in.
Apparently it is illegal for a UK resident to drive a foreign registered vehicle in the UK.
I'm a UK resident and as well as my UK registered bikes and car I also own a French registered car and bike which are kept in France. According to the DVLA I'm not legally allowed to drive/ride either of my French vehicles in the UK, even though my French insurance says it will cover me.
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  #23  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilesmark View Post
Hey Tony - have a look at this

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/as...oninternet.jpg

Only messing with you Looking forward to that drink
LOL
Actually the time was not that bad. I live here mainly on UK time during the week as I spend large chunks of my time following UK Stock and Bullion markets.

Beer. YES.
Until then at least I open my bottles of Pride 4 hours earlier here!
And it works out cheaper than in a UK pub!
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  #24  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redboots View Post
That because all this stuff comes from EU Directives! As we all know, France ignores most of these
100% but no problem with me - apart from inconsistency
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redboots View Post

Read this:
This article is written by an Anglo French Lawyer with over thirty years experince of European Legislation. It was first published in the Riviera Reporter.
"It is not obligatory to register a foreign vehicle in France unless the owner is resident in France. A resident is someone who is domiciled in France for more than six months (183 days) per year, who is employed in France, or has made a recognised and deemed permanent move toward residency in France (ie has no domicile in the country of origin, severed other ties with that country that indicate an intention to leave it with permanence). Under EU law, a private vehicle may be temporarily imported and used on French roads for up to six months in any 12 month period. The vehicle must be re-registered in France if it is owned and used by a resident of France. It is against the law for the resident of an EU country, while in that country, to drive any vehicle registered in another EU country. So a person who is a resident of France may only drive a French-registered car while they are in France (with the exception of cross-border workers). An EU-registered vehicle must satisfy the legal roadworthiness requirements of its country of registration to be legal to drive elsewhere in the EU.

There will be some canteen lawyers who will try to add or detract from this I have no doubt, I can only say that I have practiced law for over thirty years and the above is my understanding of the agreed EU regulations.

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to what qualifies a person to be classified as a French resident - the legal standpoint, in my experience, is that even if you have only been in France for one week, if your intention is to be a permanent resident and you have made efforts to that end (selling your UK home, terminating tax responsibilities, etc) then you are deemed to be a resident of France per se. From that point you must register your UK vehicle in France. It is also to be noted that you will nullify your UK car insurance and MOT the moment you enter France with the intention of being a permanent resident (unless you have made provision with your insurers beforehand).

The 183 day (6 month) limit has been set to deal with people who spend lengthy periods in more than one country and abuse different legislation to avoid various local taxes. The UK road tax is a perfect example, a French registered vehicle owned by a UK resident pays no road tax in the UK, that person may only actually spend a very small period of time in France, therefore the Law states if that person spends more than 183 days in the UK then they are deemed to be a UK resident and the vehicle should be on UK plates and paying UK road tax, not hiding that responsibility in France - and that 183 days need not be continuous but in total.

I said last night "not what someone heard from a friend, who met a person in a pub who may have read something about someone, who might just have ..... and so on."
However what is written is largely in accord with what I have said.

Note the section I have highlighted. It refers to " legal roadworthiness requirements". Not the documentation requirement to demonstrate that, but the actual roadworthiness. Never is a piece of paper part of a vehicles roadworthyness, otherwise I for one would never go near a vehicle!

If 'push came to shove
' it would be for a foreign authority to ascertain the requirement and then enforce it in the context of their home Laws - not for the driver to educate them or wave unrecognised bits of paper at him. Otherwise the Author, with the precision of the Lawyer he says he is, would have introduced demonstrate or prove into his text.

Thankfully for us all, foreign language documents are less recognised and more accepted for any purpose the further you are from the source territory.
[I have used UK Public Library membership cards to obtain Student discounts in France and Russia and free admissions in Africa! The Bklockbuster Video card is still in reserve!]

Residence has many meanings for many purposes. Sadly there is no standard all-embracing definition of UK Resident, be it for HMR&C, Probate, National Health, Pensions, DVLA or other purposes Each picks what suits their specific purpose and some even refuse to specifically define it, leaving their options open. Other countries rules can vary so you could even be Resident in several countries at the same time for the same purpose.

The final paragraph is outside my comments here or on other threads - but I wholeheartedly agree with it. I come from a position of preferring to know the Law sooner than ignorantly disregard it. Disregarding is then is a fully ionformed, private decision (and in some circumstances I might). (And do!!!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redboots View Post
If you are not asleep yet, this should be interesting and looks like the bit that any EU travelers should be aware of:
DIRECTIVE 2009/103/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
of 16 September 2009
relating to insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of motor vehicles, and the enforcement of the obligation to insure against such liability

Article 14

Member States shall take the necessary steps to ensure that all compulsory policies of insurance against civil liability arising out of the use of vehicles:
(a) cover, on the basis of a single premium and during the whole term of the contract, the entire territory of the Community, including for any period in which the vehicle remains in other Member States during the term of the contract; and
(b) guarantee, on the basis of that single premium, in each Member State, the cover required by its law or the cover required by the law of the Member State where the vehicle is normally based when that cover is higher.

This is not general knowledge and is certainly not publicised by insurance companies for obvious reasons.
My last night's post said "one member State should include the very minimum legal cover in other member States" . Note my carefully chosen word 'should'.
Total agreement

This paragraph will be of use to Ted in answer to his original opening post, although much interst seems to have strayed away from that. (Sorry Ted)
--------------------------------

John, thank you for your own research and citation. I appreciate it with respect.

I hope others do the same to be safe in their own knowledge they are acting within the Law as it really is - not as some control freak officials might wish it were.

I will come back as promised, but not tonight - Moscow time now, as it is weekend!


I'll be back


TP

PS. I prefer riding my bike to all this.
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  #25  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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EU vehicles that are being used within or between Community Member States are allowed, under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or pay duties in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a 12 month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country.

source of data
Motor insurance for visiting and imported vehicles : Directgov - Motoring
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  #26  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustaphapint View Post
Since we've long since drifted away from the OP's question I thought I'd throw this in.
Apparently it is illegal for a UK resident to drive a foreign registered vehicle in the UK.
I'm a UK resident and as well as my UK registered bikes and car I also own a French registered car and bike which are kept in France. According to the DVLA I'm not legally allowed to drive/ride either of my French vehicles in the UK, even though my French insurance says it will cover me.
Hi.
This refers to my above post about definitions of Resident.
Basically this is correct except I can find no DVLA definition of Resident (and I have looked) yet they use the term.

On the other hand Police and Customs don't refer to Resident, but state if you are using a Foreign Registered vehicle in UK you must be able to show your entitlement to be so using it in UK.

At first sight this might seem the same - but on analysis it can be very different.

If I bring my RUS registered vehicle to UK I can show my Russia Residency Permit. That should suffice. But no one knows with absolutely certaintity. (I'll return to the topic in my promised summary)
If this same document is sufficient to show entitlement of a Russia Resident to use his Russia registered vehicle as a tourist visiting UK why is the same document not accepted as evidencing non-Residency by the UK Tax authorities who also have (at present) no fixed definition or application of the term non-Resident?

Yet another very murky pool created by the current un-thought out obsession of knee-jerk, burocratic surveillance and control in UK.

The Blair/Brown years will eventually be recorded in the non-immediate future as a pivotal era of change for Britain from which it will not recover its former self.
And I see it growing as long as the unrequested, unelected, unaccountable, unauditable EU remains in total control of you.
(Excuse the rant, just this once!)

Last edited by Tony P; 26 Nov 2011 at 11:21. Reason: Make middle para read more clearly
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  #27  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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And I see it growing as long as the unrequested, unelected, unaccountable, unauditable EU remains in total control of you.
And your thoughts about Putin and Medvedev's guided democracy in today's Russia?????!
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  #28  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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Originally Posted by ilesmark View Post
And your thoughts about Putin and Medvedev's guided democracy in today's Russia?????!
I dont find society or state oppressive here. I am neither watched nor controlled. The personal freedoms and responsibility are immense.

My favourtie example is a hole in the ground-
-in RUS it is your responsibility to not fall in it. Simple!
-in UK it is the responsibility of the land owner, creater of the hole, the local planning authority, the highways department, the paving contractor, police etc to make sure you get nowhere near it with approved pattern signs, fencing, illumination, safety barriers and so on to ensure you are prevented from getting within a regulation distance of it. And if all that fails there are the ambulance chasers looking to get rich out of your inattention! Simple?

Here it is everyone for themselves at the upper levels.
Totally corrupt. Yes - but that makes the leaders more interested in what they can get sooner than seek a place of fame and respect in World Organisations or the History books by betrayal.

Is it a fact that here is no living honoured Labour ex-Prime Minister?
I wonder why.

Next weeks elections here won't change anything. The following ones might. Another peoples' revolution could just, just happen at some time ahead, sparked by any of numerous things. As greed gets rewarded better than ethics, all the way down the scale, it is unlikely as people cling on to their little bit of the system and aspire to climb it. In the meantime, people understand and enjoy great freedoms. I appreciate that as much as the people we both met away from big cities.
Moscow rocks too!!

Yes but let's continue it over some Fullers some day!
(How I miss proper ungassed draught bitter)
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  #29  
Old 25 Nov 2011
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Originally Posted by mustaphapint View Post
EU vehicles that are being used within or between Community Member States are allowed, under EC Directive 83/182, to be used on public roads without the need to register or pay duties in the host country. These provisions limit visits to six months in a 12 month period and the vehicle must comply with the registration and licensing requirements of its home country.
source of data


Yep.

Good find.

Exactly.

Just as I maintain - except it is headed "visiting and imported vehicles" into UK. I thought we were talking about using UK registered vehicles out of UK.

But be wary of DirectGov - they say what suits them not necessarily what the Law says.

What has the force of UK Law - a WebSite or an Act of Parliament?

The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says 'tax' is only necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as certain roads specific to and within the UK. No definition is given for "Public Roads" in France, Russia or the Moon where, so by elimiination there are none that qualify and therefore 'tax' is not due if using roads there.
Compare that with DirectGov's WebSite on 'tax' abroad.

However what has arisen from this is that there is an acknowleged flaw in the legistation (as my old post on another thread) that is exploited by DVLA to gather out of Court settlement "penalties" to supplement their internal budget, whereas if it went to Court they would not receive any Fines inposed on those who do not turn up to contest it - these go direct to Central Government. [I have Case references where DVLA, in slightly different circumstabces, offer a reduced settlement at the Court door if the Defendant is there. If he refuses but persists in seeing it through, they withdraw the case once inside. Crown Courts on appeal too, where an adverse decision becomes a fixed Legal Precedent that anyone can quote and follow!! No wonder they back off - it's wrong at Law and they prefer their scam.]

Look at the words - "Registration and Licensing requirements"
That, to me, refers to the V5C stuff and permits.

Further, 83/182's use of the term "Duties". That covers duties due on importation/first registration. Import duties and VAT have always been administered by HM Customs And Excise (now merged into HMR&C) ''road tax" has not! A Road Fund License, is neither a Tax nor a Duty, terminology carefully avoided in enforcing legislation in this context - it is a current charge not required other than for using specific defined roads, like a toll charge. Use the appropriate roads included and you must pay - don't use them and you do not need to pay.


It really a matter of if you prefer to know the Law for sure or are simply happy to roll over with legs wide apart in the air.

I know where I come from on this. How about you?

(It's even later tonight, but weekend tomorrow!)

Last edited by Tony P; 26 Nov 2011 at 00:16. Reason: Tried to get better size font. I failed! SORRY
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  #30  
Old 29 Nov 2011
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Sorry, Guys.,
You are not forgotten - just been busy, and tomorrow am off to StPete til next week.

I'll be back to this thread, as promised
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