Go Back   Horizons Unlimited - The HUBB > Advisories and Urgent Information > Travellers' Advisories, Safety and Security on the Road

Travellers' Advisories, Safety and Security on the Road Recent News, political or military events, which may affect trip plans or routes. Personal and vehicle security, tips and questions.
Contact Overland Solutions for all your custom modifications and setup for overland travel.

Like Tree4Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 28 Mar 2008
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 3,371
Wink Cheap cow

[quote=Richardq;182119]Quick Calculation:

Average cow weight in Ethiopia = 160kg
Average market price per kg = 16 Eth Birr/kg
160 x 16 = 2560 Birr
Approximate exchange rate 8.3Birr = 1$
2560 / 8.3 = $308

so cash raised from bikers = $250
cash raised from meat = $308
Total = $558
Hmmmmm.....[/quote

Check the price of cattle in Ireland, the UK or pretty much anywhere else.

So, having paid for the animal, they should have loaded the cow onto the vehicles they are travelling with - if just bikes, then butcher the animal there and then and take the best cuts - still a reasonable deal with the local population I would say.
Negotiation is universal.
__________________
Dave
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Kennedy View Post

The English speakers explained to me how I was to blame. There was unanimous consent on this, even from sympathetic parties. They were aghast and surprised that I could not see this. They thought me a bit of a numskull. "Sir you must realise, if you hadn't come here, this would never have happened".

The rich visitor is always at fault.

Simon
The rich visitor is always at fault? Are you havin a larf? This can also be described as mob justice in other parts of the world...
I think if you look into the real rules of the road in these very countries you will find the reality very different. Of course no fool is going to argue too much with an angry mob but you'd have to be a bit of a "numbskull" take it lying down.

You got me laughing at this bit - "if you hadn't come here, this would never have happened". Sounds like if nobody saw it happen, did it even happen at all? If you can't argue with mumbo jumbo then you definitely should take out your wallet even if it was not your fault. Just tell them not all tourists will be such a rollover.

Last edited by Richardq; 29 Mar 2008 at 00:23.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 29 Mar 2008
farqhuar's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oztralia
Posts: 566
Richardq, I don't know your background, but have you ever travelled in any 3rd world countries?

As many others in this post have stated, we are talking about people who live a subsistence existence and their livestock is their complete set of assets. In efect, killing the cow is the equivalent of taking $250 directly out of their bank account, but whilst $250 is pocket change to us, in many cases it represents their life savings.

As Simon Kennedy points out, in these countries the road is not just for traveling along at high speed, it is multi purpose and we need to recognise that we have no greater right to it than others.

With experience comes understanding.

Garry from Oz.
__________________
Garry from Oz - powered by Burgman
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 65
Ok, this is getting interesting... Yes I have spent a lot of time in third world countries and I believe this subject needs to be discussed further.

If you read the original blog, or have driven that very road as I have, and never speed, you will realise speeding is a separate issue. Secondly, you are incorrect when you describe we have no greater rights than others to the roadway in Ethiopia. Humans come before animals.

The point I was trying to get across earlier is these guys allowed themselves to be fleeced which by itself is no harm. However, in doing so they are setting a precedent, perhaps reinforced with other (heart in the right place) like minded tourists, that tourists are fair game to be swindled. And that you don't need to tend to your cattle when vehicles are about because a profit can be made. It is so sad when you see the locals engaging in any of these devious methods because it has two results:
1. It promotes a dependancy culture - shit happens, someone else will fix it.
2. It will discourage tourists from coming to spend their "big bucks".

It is important to realise that outside of the humanitarian efforts to combact famine/drought and other disasters that Ethiopians are a very proud people and this belief that killing a cow will wipe out a family is ridiculous and a bit insulting to an Ethiopian. They do have their own insurance systems

You are absolutely right that understanding can come from experience. I understand from my experience that charitable/ignorant tourists have a bad effect on these countries and tourists who spend wisely on goods and services can only benefit them.

I'm very interested to see what peoples views are on this.......
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Super Moderator
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: bellingham, WA, USA
Posts: 1,989
Richard that's a pretty strong position you're taking considering you weren't there, and merely read a very skeletal blog entry. I read a description of a motorcycle traveling 80 kph into the setting sun, i.e. too fast for conditions (by definition: if you can't stop in time to avoid whatever happens in front of you, you're going too fast).

In America, the motorist would be considered 100% at fault in such a case, and would be liable for whatever damages could be proven. For example, I once rear-ended a black-painted truck with no lights on a dark road in the rain. My insurance company paid off the damages to the truck....and the LEO who showed up wrote me up for operating in excess of what conditions allowed.

My understanding (based on extensive travel throughout Africa and Asia, both with and without my own vehicle) is that motorists are generally expected to compensate owners of killed or injured animals on the spot. I also understand that this applies to tourists and locals alike....although I'd not be surprised to learn that locals pay substantially less. I've actually witnessed shouted negotiations over a dead chicken, and I've heard about matatus/tro tros/taxis brousses/tuk tuks/etc. being delayed after hitting goats and the like. Standing on a presumed point of law against a hostile crowd might sound like a good idea from 8000 miles away, but I doubt I've got the stomach for it.

It's also true that throughout Africa the wealthy are expected to contribute to the less fortunate in a variety of ways, including by paying more and more widely at every opportunity. That we westerners consider this "unfair," "illegal" or even "immoral" has no real applicability on the ground once we voluntarily enter their world. While I tend to take a strong stand against gifts for begging kids ("stylos! Bon bons!") or for corrupt officials, I'm willing to reserve judgement about payments for actual damages, especially when these are negotiated under circumstances unknown to me.

I'd wonder what an Ethiopian might say about this. Probably something like, "Oh, that cow was only worth $125; they should have bargained harder."

I would add only that, while Ethiopians are certainly proud, that does not mean any specific one of them can easily absorb the loss of an animal. It is not insulting to point this out. I myself am quite proud, but this doesn't make it ok to destroy property of mine worth, say, half my annual income without properly compensating me. Just saying.

Of course, there's plenty of room for alternate explanations and beliefs.

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Poole, Dorset
Posts: 51
A very interesting debate.
As a rule, my advice would be pay for nothing...., unless you really really have to.
As a previous poster has mentioned, rocks and things are thrown at as Faranjies in Ethiopia in the hope we will give them pens and sweets like the UN people did...

I used to work for one of the overland companies - and spent 2 years in the Indian Subcontinent. During that time we had a couple of accidents ( not me I might add, just fellow company drvers - thank my lucky stars).

In one a driver hit and killed a pedestrian, who died immediately. A huge crowd gathered and after about 2 hours of discussions and the police providing "protection",a fee of USD200 was agreed to carry the body home and pay for the funeral.

A few months later another driver kit and killed two oxen which ran onto the road. The short story of this - the driver was arrested and spent several months in jail, a fee of USD 3000ish was paid to the owner of the cattle. The company spent several £1000's paying for solicitors, and eventually the driver was smuggled out of India, and a warrant for his arrest probably still exists in India. He was a very experinced driver with over 10 years experience on the road in Asia, Africa and South America....so this could happen to any one of us...

So remember, different cultures place different values on similar events. No matter how good and experinced you are, the sh*t can always hit the fan, and if you have to pay, you pay - simple.

Keep travelling, and keep safe.

Graham
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 29
I hit a goat once riding a bike through indonesia. The goat jumped out of the bushes and I'd hit it before I saw it.

Not only did I break a couple of bones in my foot I had to pay $50 for the very dead goat. The locals where very reasonable though - they helped me eat my goat.

A couple of days later I drove through a village where little kids at one end were throwing spikes onto the road and a bunch of teenagers at the other end were ready with tire irons, patches and a portable compressor. That was only $5...

It's all part of the fun of the third world and I look on it as much the same way as when I go into a casino or to buy a car - I know I am going to get skinned and I budget an appropriate amount that I can afford to lose with a smile on my face.
__________________
gxdoyle
www.gxdoyle.com/blog
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Billy Bunter's Avatar
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London, England
Posts: 192
Pay up??!!??

I was in India and a similar situation to a previous post... accident, not my fault, crowd gathers, turns to mob, they say i have to pay (which was only $20) to repair the other car (pannier/bike was unmarked, which was remarkable, dont ya love Touratech!) i refused... starts getting very nasty, challenged the biggest guy to be brave and call police, which he did. They arrived and arrested me for not paying!!! took us both to the police station still demanding i pay... i refused and kept seeing more and more senior offices over the next 8 hours... until i ended up in front of the chief of police for the Punjab!! which was getting a little worrying... and he listened to both stories and said... "having travelled to england last year, i believe english man!' and then said the other driver should compensate me! which i obviously refused.

I dont know the full story with the 'Cowergate incident' so cant comment on that directly but...

Should i have paid...? no... and get every other traveller through that village having to pay up for alleged damage/injury... i respect everyones rights in every country, including my own and other travellers.
__________________
Will

Some day so soon....

Last edited by Billy Bunter; 29 Mar 2008 at 15:03. Reason: speeling!!!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Caminando's Avatar
Moderated Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: DogZone Country
Posts: 1,227
There seems to be two main camps here - those who will pay up even if it's not their fault, in some kind of 1st World guilt complex, and those who will not be fleeced by rapacious villagers.

Bikers are frequently stoned in Tunisia and in other countries. There's at least one who posted here who would say, " Oh well, if they hadnt gone to those countries they would never have been stoned. It's their own fault".
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Matt Cartney's Avatar
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Edinburgh, Lothian, Scotland
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riq View Post
I don't understand how when you run into a cow it can be said that it was not your fault? I live in cattle country and don't often see cattle so fleet of foot that they can't be avoided by anyone traveling at a reasonable speed.
Then your cows must be pretty fat and lazy!

I've seen startled cows moving at a fair lick and, like a lot of animals, move unpredictably. At the end of the day though, what happens in OUR countries is irrelevant. It's what the local laws and rules say that matters. According to an earlier post the Ethiopian road rules state that if a motorist hits an animal it is the fault of the farmer who has failed to control his beast.

All I ask when I go abroad is to be treated with the same rules and respect the locals would treat each other. Unfortunately it increasingly seems that the greater wealth of westerners provides SOME* people with the excuse to fleece us. This encourages a 'them and us' attitude which helps no-one.

After all if I got in an accident with a rich American tourist, I wouldn't attempt to claim it was his fault just because I thought I might be able to get away with it/turn myself a nice profit.

Matt

*I say SOME because I hit a guys car in Morocco, entirely my fault, and apologised, offering him what I though it would cost to repair and he gave me about ten euros change! (and then offered me a meal at his house!)
__________________
http://adventure-writing.blogspot.com

http://scotlandnepal.blogspot.com/

*Disclaimer* - I am not saying my bike is better than your bike. I am not saying my way is better than your way. I am not mocking your religion/politics/other belief system. When reading my post imagine me sitting behind a frothing pint of ale, smiling and offering you a bag of peanuts. This is the sentiment in which my post is made. Please accept it as such!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Registered Users
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 3,371
"I'd sell my own granny into slavery for ........"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Smith View Post
A very interesting debate.
As a rule, my advice would be pay for nothing...., unless you really really have to.
As a previous poster has mentioned, rocks and things are thrown at as Faranjies in Ethiopia in the hope we will give them pens and sweets like the UN people did...

I used to work for one of the overland companies - and spent 2 years in the Indian Subcontinent. During that time we had a couple of accidents ( not me I might add, just fellow company drvers - thank my lucky stars).

In one a driver hit and killed a pedestrian, who died immediately. A huge crowd gathered and after about 2 hours of discussions and the police providing "protection",a fee of USD200 was agreed to carry the body home and pay for the funeral.

A few months later another driver kit and killed two oxen which ran onto the road. The short story of this - the driver was arrested and spent several months in jail, a fee of USD 3000ish was paid to the owner of the cattle. The company spent several £1000's paying for solicitors, and eventually the driver was smuggled out of India, and a warrant for his arrest probably still exists in India. He was a very experinced driver with over 10 years experience on the road in Asia, Africa and South America....so this could happen to any one of us...

So remember, different cultures place different values on similar events. No matter how good and experinced you are, the sh*t can always hit the fan, and if you have to pay, you pay - simple.

Keep travelling, and keep safe.

Graham
In an earlier post it was said that human life is more valuable than the lives of animals - patently this is not the case in some countries or cultures.
The expectation that human life is paramount is itself a "1st world" attitude that is not borne out in this world.
__________________
Dave
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 65
Ok I can agree india is a totally different situation regarding cows. Just read this-
27 killed as bus falls off mountain road in northern India - Asia, World - The Independent
-but lets not turn africa in to another india....
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Registered Users
HUBB regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: vallejo, ca
Posts: 42
..Just pay the cow and back to road man...
250 bucks could be a lot of money for that family; don't be greedy.
It's all a matter culture, education and laws.
Pay the cow, even, sacrifice the cow and do a party and everybody happy.
You stuck fight and fight and you loose stamina, time and at the end.. maybe you could finish pay anyway...
Pay the cow... don't be greedy...: thumbup1:\
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Riq Riq is online now
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 227
Talking could be

Matt
You could be right about the cattle here being fat and lazy. That would explain the great taste of Alberta Beef. This doesn't explain how a person could hit a cow hard enough to kill it and think that they weren't exceeding a safe speed. I have seen children darting on to roadways far quicker than most cattle.

That was my soap box portion. I agree that the price seems a bit high however I believe that payment was due to the owner.

If you come to Canada there are many places where you will be charged if you hit live stock wandering at large on the roadways, particular in any of the thousands of square kilometers of native reserves in this country. Yes there are often signs posted stating livestock at large however after 15 or 20 mminutes you tend to forget them. So if you wish to call the police instead of simply paying the owner then you get to pay for the animal, the repairs to your motorcycle, the fine and any other charges the Police officer, dragged out of his comfortable car, feels fit to apply.

Ride Safe

Rick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Cartney View Post
Then your cows must be pretty fat and lazy!

I've seen startled cows moving at a fair lick and, like a lot of animals, move unpredictably. At the end of the day though, what happens in OUR countries is irrelevant. It's what the local laws and rules say that matters. According to an earlier post the Ethiopian road rules state that if a motorist hits an animal it is the fault of the farmer who has failed to control his beast.

All I ask when I go abroad is to be treated with the same rules and respect the locals would treat each other. Unfortunately it increasingly seems that the greater wealth of westerners provides SOME* people with the excuse to fleece us. This encourages a 'them and us' attitude which helps no-one.

After all if I got in an accident with a rich American tourist, I wouldn't attempt to claim it was his fault just because I thought I might be able to get away with it/turn myself a nice profit.

Matt

*I say SOME because I hit a guys car in Morocco, entirely my fault, and apologised, offering him what I though it would cost to repair and he gave me about ten euros change! (and then offered me a meal at his house!)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 29 Mar 2008
Matt Cartney's Avatar
Contributing Member
Veteran HUBBer
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Edinburgh, Lothian, Scotland
Posts: 1,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riq View Post
Matt
You could be right about the cattle here being fat and lazy. That would explain the great taste of Alberta Beef. This doesn't explain how a person could hit a cow hard enough to kill it and think that they weren't exceeding a safe speed.
Two good points! Highland cows are about as fat and lazy as they come and taste great! Plus, it didn't occur to me till you just mentioned it: how do you kill a cow on a motorbike without do some serious damage to yourself! I think we're missing the real point of this story: How to survive a high speed collision with a stationary object and walk away!

Matt
__________________
http://adventure-writing.blogspot.com

http://scotlandnepal.blogspot.com/

*Disclaimer* - I am not saying my bike is better than your bike. I am not saying my way is better than your way. I am not mocking your religion/politics/other belief system. When reading my post imagine me sitting behind a frothing pint of ale, smiling and offering you a bag of peanuts. This is the sentiment in which my post is made. Please accept it as such!
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 Registered Users and/or Members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Killing it? Running little dual-sport wide open all the time? acjeske Honda Tech 9 8 May 2007 12:14

 
 
 

NEW! HU 2015 Motorcycle Adventure Travel Calendar is now available! Get your copy now for some terrific travel inspiration!

HUGE, 11.5 x 16.5 inches, beautifully printed in Germany on top quality stock! Photos are the winning images from over 600 entries in the 9th Annual HU Photo Contest!

Horizons Unlimited 2015 Motorcycle Adventure Travel Calendar.

"The calendar is magnificent!"

"I just wanted to say how much I'm loving the new, larger calendar!"

We share the profit with the winning photographers. YOU could be in the HU Calendar too - enter here!


HU DVD Autumn Special!

Take 40% off Road Heroes Part 1 until October 31 only!

Road Heroes features tales of adventure, joy and sheer terror by veteran travellers Peter and Kay Forwood (193 countries two-up on a Harley); Dr. Greg Frazier (5 times RTW); Tiffany Coates (RTW solo female); and Rene Cormier (University of Gravel Roads).

The first in an exciting new series, Road Heroes features tales of adventure, joy and sheer terror by veteran travellers."Inspiring and hilarious!"

"I loved watching this DVD!"

"Lots of amazing stories and even more amazing photographs, it's great fun and very inspirational."

"Wonderful entertainment!"

Check it out at the HU Store! Remember to use Coupon Code 'HEROES' on your order when you checkout.


Renedian Adventures


Renedian Adventures

What others say about HU...

"I just wanted to say thanks for doing this and sharing so much with the rest of us." Dave, USA

"Your website is a mecca of valuable information and the DVD series is informative, entertaining, and inspiring! The new look of the website is very impressive, updated and catchy. Thank you so very much!" Jennifer, Canada

"...Great site. Keep up the good work." Murray and Carmen, Australia

"We just finished a 7 month 22,000+ mile scouting trip from Alaska to the bottom of Chile and I can't tell you how many times we referred to your site for help. From how to adjust your valves, to where to stay in the back country of Peru. Horizons Unlimited was a key player in our success. Motorcycle enthusiasts from around the world are in debt to your services." Alaska Riders

contest pic

10th Annual HU Travellers Photo Contest is on now! This is an opportunity for YOU to show us your best photos and win prizes!

NEW! HU 2014 Adventure Travel T-shirts! are now available in several colors! Be the first kid on your block to have them! New lower prices on synths!

HU 2014 T-shirts now in!

Check out the new Gildan Performance cotton-feel t-shirt - 100% poly, feels like soft cotton!


What turns you on to motorcycle travel?


Global Rescue, WORLDwide evacuation services for EVERYONE

Global Rescue is the premier provider of medical, security and evacuation services worldwide and is the only company that will come to you, wherever you are, and evacuate you to your home hospital of choice. Additionally, Global Rescue places no restrictions on country of citizenship - all nationalities are eligible to sign-up!


New to Horizons Unlimited?

New to motorcycle travelling? New to the HU site? Confused? Too many options? It's really very simple - just 4 easy steps!

Horizons Unlimited was founded in 1997 by Grant and Susan Johnson following their journey around the world on a BMW R80 G/S motorcycle.

Susan and Grant Johnson Read more about Grant & Susan's story

Membership - help keep us going!

Horizons Unlimited is not a big multi-national company, just two people who love motorcycle travel and have grown what started as a hobby in 1997 into a full time job (usually 8-10 hours per day and 7 days a week) and a labour of love. To keep it going and a roof over our heads, we run events (22 this year!); we sell inspirational and informative DVDs; we have a few selected advertisers; and we make a small amount from memberships.

You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, the HUBB or to receive the e-zine. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.


Books & DVDs

amazon

All the best travel books and videos listed and often reviewed on HU's famous Books page. Check it out and get great travel books from all over the world.


Motorcycle Express for shipping and insurance!

Motorcycle Express

MC Air Shipping, (uncrated) USA / Canada / Europe and other areas. Be sure to say "Horizons Unlimited" to get your $25 discount on Shipping!
Insurance - see: For foreigners traveling in US and Canada and for Americans and Canadians traveling in other countries, then mail it to MC Express and get your HU $15 discount!




All times are GMT +1. The time now is 19:54.