Yesterday and tomorrow
 

Some years ago fuel was a lot cheaper, and we had not yet been defrauded by bankers and politicians. People travelled long distances and did RTW. They still do but I suggest those days are over for many.

I wanted to ride to Georgia, but I calculated how much it would cost in fuel alone, for I don't have the money for hotels etc. Anyway I like camping. The cost would be around 800 euros for the round trip. That is too much for me and I suspect, for many others. I can go to India with flight and all costs for 2/3 months for that, and hire a bike there.

Politically, too, at least for UK riders there are real problems; I believe that you can forget a visa for Iran. Understandably, for the UK has interfered in that country's affairs for decades, and they don't like it, quite rightly. So you have a look at the 'Stans and find you have to suffer high visa costs and short duration transit. Sure you can buy your way through, but I'd say they don't deserve my money. Africa is an unstable nightmare, I'd say. Now Mali and all round there is a problem.

So tomorrow, what do you do? I say, like Ted Simon, that shorter, more thoughtful trips will be the way for some. Go to Turkey or Albania and base yourself somewhere cheap in a village in the hills and explore slowly and in detail. TS said that at Ripley, but nobody heard it -it didn't fit with perceptions of him.

Or, go anywhere in the EU, like Estonia, where you can enjoy the city, forest or coastline. Or Spain, where the interior of the country is a hidden treasure. Or even the Western Isles of Scotland; I read that some "travellers" on here found Scotland too far away to travel to, so I don't include them in any of this. I don't include those who pay for guided tours either.

But all this requires a change of thinking, and I guess that some won't make that change. Why should they of course, if that doesn't appeal. There's a lot of crass consumerism with travel biking, and what I suggest is not in line with that. The rider who expresses his character through what kit he buys is not interesting.

None of you are getting younger, and a glance at the age profile at Ripley confirms that. Expect to have less cash when you're older, for the bankers etc are going to take your money from you. So what will you do for trips of quality? How will you fund it?

I've suggested some ways for those who continue biking into old age, when you have more time but less money. Ian Coates is one example but there are many who you will never hear of. I expect that some riders will give up the bike when older so I don't count them.

I wish I'd got a diesel bike when I was earning, but as I have an AT I'll stick to that now. A diesel would allow distance to be done cheaply. And I like it for its anti -image.

So what will you do?

Big heavy expensive bike too pricey, uses too much gas? Ride a smaller bike, go a little slower. Hotels too expensive? Camp. Food to pricey? Can't help you there, I like to eat and eat well but shop local joints and eat local market food if you cook for yourself.

Travel has always been an expensive proposition. Gasoline/Petrol has always been expensive, food has always been expensive, hotels have always been expensive. Very few people ever actually leave their home states or nations, even fewer leave their native continent, and fewer still make it all the way around unless their trip was subsidized by the military. I'd like to think that thanks to the internet and general availability of knowledge on what it takes to go RTW or just on long trips has actually increased the number of people who are 'out there'. bier

On the other hand, I think things have gotten out of control. More more more more. More displacement, more bags, more gear, more more more. I just got back from riding the Dalton Highway and was on the only motorcycle under 1000cc's and the only thumper except one KLR, one DR, and one older F650GS. Most were on GSA's, most had their poor bikes piled up with more crap than I literally own. I moved to Alaska on my motorcycle and carried less on it. Less is more.

Just outside of Coldfoot, on the Dalton Highway, last week.
http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...0-R3-015-6.jpg

Spares in the left saddle bag, toiletries and a few spare layers in the right, clothes and sleeping bag in the stuff sack, tent and gas can on the rack. Everything I need for a few days... or a week... or a year (basically, I'd add a few more clothes in a second tail bag, get a smaller packing sleeping bag, and drop the walmart tent for something smaller packing and nicer probably).

So what will I do? I'll keep riding and working to keep riding. I gave up on the rat race and conspicuous consumerism.

Thanks SK. I'm not actually looking for help or advice, I'm raising an issue. Your comment about most people not going abroad -I'd say that only applies to the US, where very few actually have a passport, and who view the world with suspicion. Your comment about many in the US only travelling with the military bears that out, and says much.

I'd say that most Europeans have a passport and travel.

Your solution about smaller bikes is a good one. Reducing involvement in the ratrace or consumerism is appropriate too. You might care to read a book by Thorstein Veblen about conspicuous consumerism.

I think your somewhat prone to making glib generalizations and denigrating comments regarding stuff you don't appear to know much about--for example, who travels and who doesn't, how much money any of us have, used to have, or will have, what kinds of places are mere "unstable nightmares." And FWIW, there sure appear to be more people traveling long distances on motorbikes than ever before....despite your claim that we can't and won't. So what was your point again?

The price of gas? Here's the first Google result for the USA: InflationData: Gasoline Inflation . I'll leave it to you to show results for other places.

Long distance travelers? Well, there sure are a lot of books, websites, videos and (shudder) television shows these days. What do you make of that? Are they all pretenders?

But....When I first traveled in Africa for 7 months 20 years ago I saw not a single overland rider. I've now been going to West Africa for about ten years straight, and whereas I used to see one Western overlander per month I now see one per day in the same areas. When I first drove the pipeline Haul Road to Deadhorse I saw not a single rider in four days --and I didn't see any up towards Inuvik either. Now there's a constant stream of them through my hometown, coming and going, and the Alaskan roads are full of overlanders. Same with South and Central America, although I've got less basis for comparison: hundreds per year (as best I could figure) from North America to Ushuaia.

A lot of this is driven by the fact that the demographic--middle-aged and up--is relatively flush with cash and freedom, notwithstanding your statements to the contrary. Ted Simon, like me, may just be feeling a bit weary, having taken a lot of long trips. That's fine, but there are a hundred where there once was only Ted. That's not an indication that overland riders are staying home, clinging to their few remaining coins.

On the other hand, you know what they say about opinions....and that's at least doubly true with stuff, like this post, written late at night.

Mark

Caminando, I can see where you are coming from, There are many countries that I would like to travel to but due to the fact I hate paperwork and the thought of actually paying and form filling for visas just puts me off. any motorcycle travel on your own bike will be expensive, even in the 80's when I used a T140 Bonneville you had to make sure you started the trip on new tyres, or ones that you had put little mileage on, about 3 years ago I 'garaged' my R80gs as it was not as practical as other bikes I have and that can be used for trips. I would be quite happy to use either my ybr125 or Royal Enfield.recent trips I have done have been to India(yes I know I needed a visa!) and hired a bike, and also rented a bike(!) in Thailand.
Unless you have pretty much unlimited time, you also have the constraints of how far you can get in say 2-3 weeks especially on a small bike.
The last couple of years at the Isle of Man TT I have used either my 125 or in the case of this year the Enfield and I can honestly say that I have enjoyed the Island much more from the seat of a smaller bike.

Actually, I think it's you who offer "glib and denigrating "comment and verbal flatulence since you feel free to offer such personal comment to me. And I gave no such denigrating comment. As for who has passports/travels and who does not, it's in the statistics. It's a fact not a criticism. You check it out. And SK agrees -read his post. You're clearly defensive and I understand that, and why. It's OK.

Most of what I said IS one opinion about the possible future - I hope I'm wrong. I hoped you'd see that it's mostly opinion without spelling it out to you. Sigh. I'm quite happy to read other points of view - that's fine by me. I want to read what others think. I'm relaxed if that view is different from mine. It could be that you're unhappy with differing ideas/opinions. My friendly advice to you is don't take general comment so personally.

You present yourself as an old Africa hand. I said Africa was a changing nightmare and you 'disagreed'. Zimbabwe, Uganda, Congo, Mali, Mauritania, Libya, Algeria, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda, Angola, Nigeria, Kenya, Somalia to name but a few have all seen recent serious conflict. I suggest that this is a nightmare, especially for the people there. It is also a problem for a traveller. Not impossible, but a problem. Until you show me different, I'll stand by that.

I'm pleased to read the relevant opinions you gave when you got to the point. That's what I hoped some people would do. That is, discuss the issue without beginning as you did with a spoiler.
:scooter:

Thanks Palace

You make some good points IMO especially about the smaller bike and the Enfield, and about the changing problems of travel on a bike. And you actually garaged your GS, which I find hard/impossible to do with my similar bike. :thumbup1:

Yes travel can be expensive, especially on fuel. It's about finding the money and for some/many, that's not easy.

From what I have seen at travellers meetings and from the number of people that I have met on the road the interest and participation in overland motorcycle travel has actually increased in the past few years, partly I suspect due to the Ewan and Charlie effect. The cost has always been high and it has taken a well paid job, selling your house and or long term saving to pay for travel, I took 5 years to save for my first long trip, so no change there.
The thing I have noticed with rising cost has been the increase in the use of smaller bikes, Honda C90 or XL125 instead of big GS or XT's, the smaller bikes not only having cheaper running costs but travel insurance and shipping cost being less.
I find that I am now prepared to make those shorter trips and explore places more thoroughly but only after experiencing the thrill of riding across entire continents on previous trips, something I expect people will be doing for sometime yet.

:thumbup1::thumbup1:

What's the Ewan and Charlie effect?
 

What's this Ewan and Charlie effect? Does this refer to quality of experience being inversely proportional to money spent? That should be called the First Law Of worldly Dynamics. But then I really did badly at physics at school. Lindsay.

Caminando - there's a lot of food for thought in your original post and much of it has been on my mind in recent years as well. What I have been trying to do is distinguish between signal and noise when it comes to travel and bike travel in particular. The signal is what's actually happening in the world that affects my ability or desire to travel with the noise representing my own personal circumstances. For example, too many years of long queues, aggressive officials, petty restrictions, decreasing value for money and many other factors have all combined to put me off air travel. I really don't enjoy it anymore. My 22yr old son however wouldn't agree with any of that list and uses Easy Jet / Ryan Air to flit round Europe on a whim like they were his own personal airlines. He, and most of his peer group, enjoys it. I used to but no longer do. It's me that's changed and my personal noise is drowning out the signal that air travel is probably cheaper, easier, safer and more commonplace than its ever been.

It's much the same with bike travel. I did my first long distance bike trip in 1970 so it's probably not surprising that I've changed somewhat in the meantime. I've been bike traveling ever since and that interest has remained a little bit of a constant while everything else has changed around it. I'm older (obviously), wealthier (not so obvious but a combination of luck and judgment has kept me level with my peer group) and subject to an accumulation of biases and prejudices that creep up on you over that length of time. I also have to have accumulated numerous commitments and responsibilities that I didn't have when I first started.

All of these have to be juggled and weighed when I start planning any sort of trip. Twice in recent years substantial bike trips have been canceled at reasonably short notice because of fiscal prudence. There was enough money available if the future went well but not if our circumstances took an unforeseen downturn so I decided that I couldn't justify the expenditure. All of this, the state of my health, bank balance, predicted level of homesickness, my wife having to take up the slack while I'm away or even can I be bothered with it all is just noise in the system. It's personal to me and nothing to do with the state of the wider world and external problems such whether I can get a Sudan visa or even whether I should use a pizza delivery bike or a GS1200. Back when I first started these decisions were everything. We'd spend weeks pouring over maps on the floor or pre booking campsites by letter. Now I hardly glance at a map.

That's the reason I've only been to Ripley once (and then only for one night) - the corporate world that's become "adventure motorcycling" doesn't interest me. I've no interest in the latest overhyped megatourer or the contents of the TouraTech catalogue. What I've always enjoyed is the actual touring whether it's sunken lanes in Devon or shipwrecks in Mauritania. It's kind of fortunate really that I'm now old enough and experienced enough to be able to decide for myself whether a piece of kit is right for me and happily ignore opinions to the contrary.

Anyway, the point of all of this was to say that I'm not sure that we're in any sort of new era or difficult times for bike travel. Certainly fuel costs have gone through the roof here in recent years but they did back in 73/74 and I managed to cope then. Borders come and go although I would admit that Africa at the moment does seem to have more no go zones than the average over the last few decades. That may not be the case in ten years time although (depending on how old you are) that may not be much personal comfort. For me though, for the last 25yrs or so, its been personal circumstances, relationships and commitments that have governed where I go or whether I go at all.

Many thanks for your detailed and very thoughtful post. Much of it I recognise and share.

I do think that these are issues that affect, or will affect most of us. I fully admit that when younger, I paid little heed to the thought of being older.

I was interested too, in people's response to this, if any. It's actually about keeping on riding, and adapting to changing circumstances. However, like Ogri, "I've still got my bike"!

Beyond agreement or disagreement, I like your post. It's thought-provoking, honest and respectful; some may not agree, as said, but that's a different issue. It's a good starting point to hear opinions. Some are really nice to read. It comes to my mind Clifford T. Ward's song "Thoughts from Abroad": [I've been reading Browning, Keats and William Wordsworth], Well I like the words they use, and I like the way they use them.

I agree with many points and see no contradictions between what you stated and what others said against. I tend to position myself a lot, but here I cannot see a clear statement 100% right, but many nuances.

Not the big issue discussed here, but I'm sure I profoundly dislike the BMW GS+Touratech+Sunday coffee life-style. I may not go anywhere far, but I prefer that to be a pretender.

Esteban

Right, I've had a couple of glasses of red so I'm hoping what I say makes sense.

I agree with what a lot of the OP says. It's become something of an obsession here. Not at retiring age yet but seriously looking forward to being able to get away more. We've noticed how much the cost of everything has increased over the last few years. Increased costs at home have meant there is now much less 'disposable income' to spend on breaks and holidays. Fuel costs are a major issue making it more expensive to go any distance on our old airhead than use our modern diesel car.

Dreams of 4/5 star hotels on our bike tours are just that (dreams) so we're looking at ways of making camping more comfortable (we like camping but unless you do it a lot it takes a while to get used to it).

We don't have as much opportunity for hopping on a cheap Ryan air/Flybe as people living in the UK but we do have the advantage of being only a few hours from Biarritz, the Pyrenees, Barcelona, Marseille etc. which is a big plus, however the prices for hotels and food in big cities is generally beyond our means.

I enjoy meeting up and riding with other adventure bikers but personally can't bear standing around all day with the express purpose of talking about bikes, so avoid the Ripley and Ace cafe stuff as much as I can. I'm also stongly anti farkles - in my book it's either essential or a waste of money

The situation is very different in Europe, full of small countries piled on top of each other. You need a passport to actually go anywhere, which is probably as much reason for 'most' (and I'd be willing to wager its still not a majority) have a passport than any real desire to travel farther than a few hundred miles from home. Riding across the EU is roughly equivalent to riding across the lower 48 is it not?

Regardless, money and the costs of it all have certainly put a damper on my long distance trip planning. I really really really want to spend a few months riding around Europe, but the cost of shipping my bike over and back is absurd. I could spend months traveling in North, Central, and South America for the money I'd spend to get over and back, before factoring in 2x-3x fuel costs; its a rough pill to swallow. But I think as others have mentioned, its the 'other' stuff that gets in the way as you get older and get used to the ins and outs of what needs to happen to put a tour together. I also still believe there are more people out there now than ever before, the sky isn't falling its just changing.

Yes Skierd, on needing a passport, this is true to a point, though Schengen means that for many countries a passport is not needed. But your basic point is valid.

On "riding across the EU" I take your point, tho' it's more about moving out of your comfort zone, whatever the distance.

There is a real problem in Europe you don't have in the US and that's the price of fuel, which is crippling here, I think.

I agree with most points, or I’d say with the spirit of your post. But I also think there’s another side of the coin to be seen:

- The comparison between overlanding and flying costs may be misleading: fuel prices have raised, but also flight tickets prices have gone rock bottom, so they are comparatively much cheaper now. I assume that flying your bike to another continent has to be much cheaper today than it used to be. Nonetheless, oil prices and industry are THE BIGGEST SCAM on Earth (…alongside with banks, of course). I don’t get that petrol can be more expensive than drinks (beer, soft drinks, juice, etc) and still there is no alternative to it. I hate that lobby, a burden for all of us.

- Some regions get tougher to go to, but others open as well: far Russia/Siberia and the Stans are accessible, as it happened with the Eastern block in general, for instance. I’m pretty sad about Western Africa, it’s in my agenda, but thinking about rushing through Timbuktu or elsewhere, instead of taking it easy looks the opposite of what I’d like. But this looks like cycles.

- I think there is an assumption that should be clear to someone committing to travelling intensively, especially if you plan to keep the pace at an older age: if you focus a lot on travelling, years-off, investing in gear, etc, then your professional career won’t perform (I hate that word!) so good as if you only focused on working and working and working and working. So, it’s reasonable to think that you’ll have less cash in the long run. It’s not only the money you spend (instead of invested) and the cash you did not earn that year since you did not work (we call that “lucro cesante”, lost profit?), but also that those years-off may stop you going higher in the job hierarchy. Or you may keep a “worse job” because it allows you more free time (for wrenching, planning, etc), or whatever. So it’s definitely a compromise to consider. Such a life will have a toll.

Something that seems to worry (not that Caminando mentioned it in the opening post), is that going abroad is getting more and more expensive… Well, fortunately for them, many developing countries are growing much faster than us (Western nations in decline), so that’s why they are much more expensive to travel now (India, Brazil, etc). The same happened to the countries that didn’t suffer that much the consequences of the WWII, such as the US or Switzerland, which comparatively were getting “poorer and poorer” against the other Western nations.

Regarding the future… I agree, I’m quite pessimistic, at least regarding Western countries (I cannot find a better term): I feel there is a wealth exchange of money going from middle-class towards VERY upper class (ultra-rich). Middle-class, which is the cement in the society, what gives stability in the long run, tends to disappear IMO, and that’s very, very bad.

Esteban

Yes, yes, back in the day it was all wonderful, you could ride round the world on a week's wages, and border officials everywhere would welcome you in with a crisp salute as soon as you waved your British passport.

:rofl:


Fuel is expensive in Europe. Other stuff is (inflation adjusted) cheaper than it's ever been - including buying motorcycles.

Currently, the UK is in a recession. Currently, most of North Africa is in a period of political unrest. Currently, a British passport makes you persona non grata in certain countries. I'm pretty sure all of these things have happened before, and they've all proved to be temporary states of affairs, and have all failed to spell an end to overland travel.

Not that anyone spoke of the Good Old Days which never existed but since it interests you, I'm sure you're one of those who slept in a shoebox , worked 24 hours a day for 50 pence and tipped your cap to the boss. Never did you any harm, did it?

The UK passport has been already referred to as a bummer in Iran. Get up to speed!:stormy:

Most Eurozone countries have evened out making hotels and food in the previously cheap countries much more expensive.

You were the one going on about how much worse things will be 'tomorrow' than 'yesterday'. I'm 30, I'm not sure I was alive in the 'Good Old Days', whenever they were.

So I can't go to Iran right now, and parts of North Africa/Middle East might be ill-advised. Ok, I'll solve that by *going somewhere else*. By the time I've got bored of all the possible 'somewhere elses', I'll either be dead or the political situation will have changed.

Not just us.
 

I hate to be the one to point out that the UK's weakly motorcycle paper MCN has articles this week on diesel bikes and someone on a 50cc trail bike traversing South America and tomorrow the world. I've not tried MCN as loo paper but it would be OK for fire starting. I admit to referring to it as Motorcycle Nonsense, but still find myself checking it out at news stands. No excuse for such double standards. The diesels' economies are epic but they are lethargic slugs. Lindsay.

Cheers Linzi
I have 2 of these 'lethargic slugs' and they are too lethargic to mate!

We are not here to start or continue arguments.

Dash, the 2nd part of your post was very balanced and reasonable, much nicer to keep the whole tone like that.:scooter:

Thanks Dash

That's one of the points I made, which I think may be an increasing option. So we agree:thumbup1:

You'll also agree it's all about adapting to circumstance - financial, political etc. There may difficult economic times ahead, but you don't have to agree with that possibility of course. Yet there are so-called Tent Cities in the US, disabled people are having their incomes slashed in the UK, in Greece and Spain there are protests and some suicides over the economy and so on. Fuel will never drop significantly, but will continue to rise. Food for thought?

For the moment, while I can, I'll be off to the Stella Alpina.:scooter:

Oh Oh.
 

Hi Palace, I think slugs are hermaphrodite so can, so to speak, do it for themselves, or do they use 69? I am no expert. What can I say when I'm confused enough to be male and use an obviously female username? I hope to god its not a freudian slip. Lindsay.

No no no! It's: "I've still got me bike"!
And a brilliant summing-up it is.

Like BoB above, I often give thought to all the different opinions and outlooks and ideas featured all over the HUBB, but usually I can't relate to many of them.
And I wonder why.
In the end I think it's mainly down to personal circumstances, your 'baggage' or experiences and influences from the past.
The possibility of being influenced by individuals isn't often mentioned. We've had Ted Simon and Charlie&Ewan brought into posts above, which indicates to me that probably they are amongst the people with the biggest influences at the moment, albeit at opposite ends of the spectrum I think.

On the other hand, how many members of these forums would say their parents have influenced them insofar as riding motorbikes is concerned?
My dad, a lifetime rider (mainly sidecars 1960s to 80s, bicycles before) is still a big influence for me I think, which might put me in a minority. And maybe is why I don't relate to a lot of what is on the HUBB. But notwithstanding that, these forums are a big resource for me and I read a huge amount of what gets posted, and enjoy it all and take note.
There are as many different views about riding a motorbike across continents as there are people doing it. And it will always be so, I think.

On the question of where we are now and what the future holds, it looks to me as though the popularity of riding off into the sunset continues to increase or at least remains steady. The changing stability of borders and countries has always been a factor and always will be. Ditto personal spending power. And fuel costs are probably the third major factor but that too has had its spikes in the past (for some of us - still have the ration books).

So routes, modes of transport, and sizes of vehicles will always change to suit the world situation and personal circumstance, at any given time. As it has done in the past.
For instance, it seems to me over the last 1 to 2 years, the popularity of going east (from UK) towards eastern Russia and SE Asia has increased enormously, while fewer are going to Africa. And the size/costs of bikes in use seems to be going down. (Standby for the major 'farkles' merchandisers to launch their new range of overlanding gizmos for the Honda C90!)

And there's a lot to say for the "travel to nearby places, look further while there" philosophy. If nobody is hearing that now, I think they may do in the future. It has a lot going for it, which I'm beginning to find myself and hope to explore more. (Although maybe, in reality, it's not much cheaper than overlanding on a distant continent).

For one thing that isn't mentioned much above, (just one brief reference), is health. And you need it more than money.
Consequently I find there's a lot to keep me interested in researching places nearby; finding I can travel there easily by bicycle, stay a good while and still see new things. And as I've learnt from a few long bicycle trips in the past, fuel costs don't matter.

Yep, I've always got me bike(s)!
(And a bus pass now, - which changes everything yet again!) :thumbup1:

Corrrection fully accepted on the Ogri quote.:thumbup1: "Moybe its becorz Oi ain't a Londonaa"....

And there's a lot to be said for the Honda 90.

Given that some of the posts here are thoughtfully written, some may care to look at
http://International Journal Of Motorcycle Studies
for something a cut way above the bike magazine stuff with its talk of "loads of grunt" and "grin factor" clichés..

Access to information.
 

McCrapkin refered to some thoughtful points... (as usual).

Of course, travelling by motorcycle now is MUCH easier now than it has ever been and I'd say that -as for travel by any other means to remote regions- the main reason IMO is the easy access to information, call it internet (forums as HUBB, LP Thorn Tree, etc) and quick/cheap communication as e-mail, fax, etc. Add these new technologies to security, such as GPS, Satellite phones, and SPOTs and similars. It's tailwind!

In the past, it was jumping into the unknown. Now you know what to expect, that's the main difference. I guess that if this access to information/communication were not here, less than 10% bikers would be accessing very remote areas. But that's happening in many fields: how many used to dive in the past? Now it's easier, safer, etc.

BUT, I understand that (obviously) Caminando's opening post takes that into account, since this is the time we are living in, but nonetheless, some factors may look to be against.

Totally agree it's never been easier. I 've often thought about those early riders and the sheer heroism of what they did.

BTW, I think the contribution of Ted Simon and Ewan & Charley are pretty different.

LWR showed that it could be done and relatively easily. "If these guys could do it, then I could as well". Otherwise, you did not get that they are actors "at work". No doubt, they made A LOT for overland biking (whatever the term), since they showed it at a big scale. So thanks for that contribution, which is being very inspirational.

While Ted Simon's approach is much more cultural, sort of a great personal growth, a long-term experience (not a 3 month RTW which sounds more like an organized tour in LWR). Sure LWR helped to boost his sales of books (as it did with BMWs!), as sad as it sounds, not the other way around. By contrast, by no means I would consider myself capable of crossing the Nubian desert in the same conditions Ted did it.

Many people in quiet areas of the UK like mine will never have a passport, however cheap and easy it may become to travel everywhere!

Will bikes/cars/vans/trucks of tomorrow actually be any use for travel far from a dealer once California's and Boris Johnson's plans come to fruition?

Do we have more time now than "back in the day"?

I've spent a fair amount of time on two feet exploring some of the greener bits of the UK, and am always amazed at the history thats gone before. I was told it would take 25 years to walk every street just in Londons City. There is so much history in the UK and Europe in depth and breadth I really don't want to waste one more second at work! :funmeterno:

How anyone can be happy with two weeks a year on the beach in Spain I'll never fathom! :(

Jason

One of the issues mentioned here and many times elsewhere is the cost of petrol. Maybe someone with a better memory than me will correct me and maybe my calculations are incorrect after a few glasses of wine.
Around 1970 in the UK I seem to remember £1 would buy almost 3 gallons of fuel. That's around £0.35 per gallon. I started my first job in 1970 as a Heating and Ventilating Design Engineer. I was told when qualified I could expect to earn about £1500 pa. So on that basis a years salary for someone with a decent job would buy them around 4,285 gallons. (As an apprentice on £6 per week I struggled to put even a gallon a week in my little Bantam)
Today, if we say the equivalent job would pay around 40K and £1.30 per litre is about £5.90 per gallon, a years salary would buy around 6,760 gallons.
So we moan like mad about the price of fuel but in real terms it has actually gone down quite a lot in value. (Or am I out by a factor of 10 somewhere along the line?(
That's no excuse though for the government taking such a large % in tax and then squandering it.

Strangely, yesterday I was looking through an old motorcycle mag from 1970 that I found in the loft and there was a reference to petrol at eight shillings a gallon (and how expensive it was!). That's 40p in current money or about 9p a litre. On the income side my new graduate salary a couple of years later was the same £1500/yr that you mentioned.

These days though a similar new graduate job would only attract about £20,000 (or so my new graduate son tells me) so if £40K is a reasonable current income for a heating etc engineer he might have made a poor choice at uni :(. My rule of thumb though that prices have gone up x10 since the early/mid 70's would suggest that science graduate salaries have roughly kept pace and it's heating engineers that have moved up the ladder.

When he does get a job his £20k will buy him 3350 gals of petrol (at the price my local garage is selling it ) whereas I could have bought 3750. A little better but not a huge difference. I did wonder whether bikes had become cheaper / dearer over the same period but not a single advertiser in the mag quoted prices. I do remember though going to Morocco in 1970 two up on one bike (Yamaha 250) and it cost us £22.00 each. That £44.00 would be roughly the equivalent of about £600 now. Anyone think that's a reasonable budget for two people to go from London to Tangiers including ferries, fuel and (very downmarket) camping over just short of three weeks?

A good point about prices related to income, I think this can be applied to much of the cost of travel, bikes for instance, my 1991 R80GS was a years take home pay for me at the time, a new F800GS is closer to 8 months take home pay in the same job. People tend to get rose tinted spectacles about the price of things and forget how much less they earned way back when.

Excellent points Mark, which link to your previous post about Lumb Farm alternatives, "..the cost of a 1000 mile round trip to get there would put some people off". Good to have you on board.

A pity, that; it's a fine meet, well worth the trip.:scooter:

Lot of good points made here.

Fuel price is rising and there will be no end. IMHO what has really helped is the economic decline for the past 4 years or so to keep it relatively stable, but if this shall pass and the consumption rise again then so will be the fuel price. We've probably already peaked on the global scale and we're on the "wrong-side-of-the-curve" with most of the "easy" fuel is gone. Now the oil companies have to go to the arctic extremes or drill in the deep ocean or refine it out of the oil sands etc high-effort/high-cost undertakings.

Most of serious overlanders are long-distance freaks so we are naturally concerned about the fuel prices. I'm hoping we'll have a very fuel efficent bikes coming in near future since the technology moves in this direction. Even Japanese, who've normally weren't bothered with fuel efficency on their big-bore bikes have gone in this direction, i.e. Honda's new low revving 700cc parallel twin. Close to 100 MPG 450-650cc adventure bikes would be nice thing to have - you'll have the same cost running it when the fuel prices have more than doubled. I'm also guessing in the future I won't be riding so much long distance anymore as I'm used to - discover the area in more short bursts and take my time looking around. Maybe even start touring on a bicycle someday - those shaft-driven bicycles look very nice and practical :cool4:

Good thing is that for sure things we consume have gone cheaper: ie. bikes and gear since everything now is made in mass production fashion these days - i.e BMW, they used to make some few thousand bikes now they make some 100 000 bikers a year, it has to come cheaper to keep it rolling. Bikers still have a long way to go to get the same prices as the even more mass produced car market tho. Bike parts are still relatively ripoff compared to car stuff plus you don't need a good riding gear inside the car :funmeterno: Every time I see my bill for the simple consumable parts such as filters, sparkplugs etc I feel I'm completely ripped off even if I search for the cheapest parts.

Good thing is that the wining will always stop once I hit the road with my bike. :thumbup1:

inflation and PP
 

Earning less in numbers in the past doesn't mean you actually earned less. It's about the 'purchase power': how much you earn in relationship of how much things cost around you in that particular time. Here's an inflation calculator to see relationship between "then and now" in the UK. I.e. check how much you earned in the 1970/80s and translate it into today's money :eek3:

The post by Margus (and also from others above) is the kind of informative post which matters.

He is right about the committed RTW riders. Many, I guess, did not have huge salaries, yet they overcame a host of obstacles to make that terrific journey, some lasting years. That is a real inspiration, and which encourages others to do likewise. Long may it continue.

Purchasing power seen against earnings can also change perceptions about affordability. Good link.

As for future technology making a difference, let's hope it comes sooner rather than later. For sure there will be something, and the development of ever more economical engines can be seen over the last few years, with more advances made in cars than bikes, I think. The new 'Track' Dutch diesel bike uses a Smart car engine to power it, with impressive kms per litre. But the bike is expensive at around 18,000 euros. Smaller petrol bikes of course may be increasingly used. Or Hartz style diesel powered bikes in an old frame.

I believe oil companies predict ample oil reserves yet to be exploited (the Arctic - as has been mentioned) so I guess the supply will be there. But the price will rise, and that may be a difficulty, especially as other developing countries buy it in increasing amounts. China is securing its future supplies with contracts all over the world, affecting price. So do politics and taxes. Hydrogen powered vehicles may be developed, cost unknown, not any time soon.

Big trips will surely continue as Margus suggests with the serious overlanders. And as has been pointed out, more big trips or RTWs are being made than ever before. I hope that lasts. I think the shorter distance trips will rise, as suggested to places like Albania, or destinations in S. America for N. Americans. As we (in the West) live longer than before many riders will have more time but less money when they stop work. I don't earn money any more, but I still want to bike travel to wherever I can, adjusted to my means. I've enjoyed the opinions of others here, which, as always, modify my view.