Is there really an (general) economic crisis?
 

Rolls-Royce Posts Record Sales In First Half Of 2011

Swiss watch industry sees record sales for 2011

I have always thought that in general terms, but especially in the so-called economic crisis, money worked on the basis of the communicating vessels of Blaise Pascal, or paraphrasing a famous phycisist, "money can neither be created nor be destroyed: it can be transformed from one form to another or transferred from one POCKET to another" (change only money ca be created by the bank from nothing, except for your commitment to pay it back in [the form of a] 20 years [slavery]). I mean, your loose is their gain, just that. No less purchasing power in this world, it is only you can buy less 2nd hand crap while others will buy more RR. More harshly, your grandpa will have to sell his golden teeth at a ridiculous price since his pension fund collapsed and the guy fleed to Grand Cayman and so that others buy their Patek Philippe Grande Complication watch. What I mean is that "there is only a crisis for the many negatively affected", but not at all of those who are making the huge profit (exactly equivalent to those other's looses).

My girlfriend's best friend was fired today, because the (very stupid missmanaged) economic crisis we Spaniards are suffering. This looks like the film the "Highlander": "only one can survive", the richest among the rich (aka the big banks and the like). Then I was reading the news about the great success of the luxury industry in this times of recession. And I was considering...

Am I the only one thinking that this sort of economic crisis are just planned, guided, designed well in advance in order to destroy all the middle class and the small and medium enteprises?

Just a thought, I am not going to stop working tomorrow, I won't cancel my bank account or credit card, or will stop refuelling in the gas station, nothing will be changed, but it seems to me that this predatory system is already going too far and things may change abruptly as it has always happened all along the human history...

An interesting theory.
Have you watched Zeitgeist? It claims that the Worlds governments are effectively powerless. Power lies with the banks. Watch it if you can. It is very thought provoking.

The Game (Capitalism) is up mates. IT'S BLOODY OVER!

I won't go into my background, there's no point. BUT just trust me, if you want to go for a long overseas ride, then DO IT NOW .. before it's too late!

Take a look at this for a tiny-weeny introduction into what's coming your/our way: The Crash Course

See you on the other side.

.

That's the one you have to get hold on to... very much recommended to watch !

Hey estaban, should this poll be split into regions of the world?

?c?

well yeah... you are dead right...

wasn't there a study from the MoD a few years back, where they tried to find out where and how future threat's are to be spotted.. ?

subserviently the result wasn't a 3rd world war or such... no the most likely threat's will be riots and demonstrations looting and hunger of the masses of poor and mistreated population all over in any country, but specially in the so called industrialised world... yeah didn't we just see the start of it... just a little taster in London this year... just look at the growing "occupied movements"... it's just the beginning of much more to come...
anyway the MoD study recommend to target just this in the coming years as the main threat politicians have to deal with...

YES... I only can confirm... you are right... "DO IT NOW .. before it's too late!" rather sooner than later...

In short, planned - no, predictable - yes.

The starting point is the following quote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing. "

We, the people, vote in the governments that allow this all to happen.

Bad governments make bad policies reacting to short term incentives.

The people (who are consumers) live beyond their means and push the government and their policies to their limit to allow them to do so.

Too much debt in government, too much debt in business, too much debt for individuals.

Normal economic shocks happen and an overly burdened government, business, or person will collapse under the weight.

Sorry guys have to disagree with all the doom and gloom. I work in manufacturing just over 100 miles from where the industrial revolution started. We've seen it all before. The US civil war cut off our raw material, we switched to army blankets made from rags (recyling before the word was invented) even though people starved during the switchover. The money markets wents bad in the 1930's and we suffered. Same again in the 80's but the recovery was in China and India.

Manufacturing here is now lean and only has the high value jobs. No recession here, we can't make the stuff fast enough. The wealth stays here too.

This recession is just the movement of low value, low skill jobs in other sectors and the same in manufacturing that was falsely protected in the '80's. Sure, the bankers will scream as their 2 hour a week paper shuffling jobs are moved to India and the media will sulk as paper goes the way of the dinosaurs but people adapt. India call centres are now for the Indian market who has money and love their accents. The printers will have to move into IT or plumbing or something someone else can't do remotely for less.

It's just a recession caused by a reshuffle of wealth made worse by panic spread by better communication. It will end when people decide to end it. Resources are not short, peak oil, when we'll have the most ever is 20 years away. The next recession in the 2030's could be about resources when all those Indian insurance companies have power cuts and realise they've sold pyramid schemes.

Andy

There are just too many people in this world.... It's not sustainable.

Everything has to be fought for. Jobs, resources, land, fishing rights etc etc.

It's not going to get better until something DRASTIC is done about world population. If we don't sort that ourselves, then it will be left to war, famine or an epidemic to correct.

:frown:

I agree with that! We leave in December for the American continent, comming from Europe.
Wathever their will be happening, it will be Something. I believe there will be a big chance in the world. For me, I think it is important to make shure that you know what is really important for you and to stick on that. I mean, do you know your values in live? Are you able to chance it? Can you hold on on it when al your "material power" is gone? Each morning when I wake up, I try to do it without "craving" for something. Even not a cup of coffee.
Beside that, I am shure that the power in the world for this moment is on a very small group of families, how al depending on each other. And I believe that we, concience-(travel)-people can chance this power, if we hold on on our one values. bier

If the press would shut the f**k up about it ......
 

....Things would be nowhere near as bad as they are.

The most damaging factor is the ' FEAR FACTOR '.

If the TV and press were to shut up about it, things would be nowhere near as bad, people would just go about their lives, treat themselves to the odd little luxury, new car or kitchen, and things would move, money would circulate, and so on.

But, as we all know, the only news is BAD NEWS, so looks like my wish wont be granted!!

So, we all agree: some people say it was planned in advance, others vote is was planned now! (SORRY, I MEAN NO, OBVIOUSLY).

I’ll have to watch Zeitgeist, although I tend to avoid thinking too much: do not watch TV, no read papers, only read some news on line. It gets too sad. Recommendation: documentary “Money is Debt”, about the basis of the capitalist system.

Great approach: go for the trip, a big tsunami is getting ready to hit.


I see your point. I am not meaning general growth, but equitative growth: are rich Indians becoming extremely rich while poor Indians struggling so much to buy 1 kg of rice due to food speculation? Macroeconomic statistics would hide huge micro-economic differences. Isn’t it sad?

Food speculation: 'People die from hunger while banks make a killing on food'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/jan/23/food-speculation-banks-hunger-poverty

Low and middle class was affected here one way; a different and much harder way on other areas.

Same same, but different? Stupid example: let’s say you work in real estate and you have a crystal ball to know there will be an earthquake in 2 years. You start buying, you fuel the bubble as much as you can. Then you sell 2 months before the earthquake and make huge profits (1st round). After the earthquake, when everybody needs the cash, you buy really cheap again (2nd round of profit). Isn’t it the same predictable and planned?

True, there is only a cake to share. Apart from inefficiency dealing with the resources available and the fact that the West is in regression, some dudes are just taking your part. I mean that the gap top-base of the pyramid is getting bigger anywhere, not only here in the West, but everywhere (I mean proportionally).

I find extremely sad and disgusting to see how OUR States get to the “markets” to sell OUR debt as if they were prostitutes, selling our future pensions, kids schooling, etc, so that the politicians (aka the pimps) can pay their debt to those “richest of the rich” who fund their campaigns (of all parties). Oh yes, as we say in Spanish, “estás cogido por los cojones”.

Quite interestingly, in our very own crisis in Spain, all SME are falling down, receiving no support by the government, while the big ones get non-refundable credits paid by all of us. “To big to fail”, funny story they want us to believe.

What about general population? Let me write even longer: Common Law (UK and ex colonies) is based in jurisprudence, but (our) continental system is based on regulations, and far back in Roman Law. Yes, these guys understood justice and invented almost all, included the mortgage: if you cannot pay the credit, then we get the property (real state), end of the story. Well, in my beloved country, mortgages are not any more like that: you were fired and can’t pay any more, then you give the house back. End of the story? Nooooo… Your house will be valued again (1st time value was inflated, so you got a bigger mortgage) and it happens it’s worth, let’ssay, ½ its original value. Oh man, you still have to pay more: no job, no house, but a debt to pay.

And it is more important that the capital keeps on making money, squeezing most of the population, than providing a shelter. And still we accepted, we that supposedly decide who’s going to the ruling your f**king nation, country, homeland! Isn’t it amazing?

Sorry to be so long, when I was in Nepal last December I wrote to my friends saying: nobody is going to do anything, nobody will go to the City Hall to say enough? I seems it finally happened.

PS: Ruled by bipolar investors: (today) markets are very optimistic after the European Central Bank said that it will buy Greek debt. (tomorrow) Desperation in the markets, massive looses after Standard & “Richs” said Greek debt is “junk”. AREN’T WE EVER GOING TO TAX STOCKS BUY/SALES TO STOP SPECULATION?????? You pay taxes for every damn transaction of property and you do not pay for buying/selling stocks???? Come on… (I've got friends working in banking, I am not meaning anyone in the field is evil, only that it needs more regulation).

@ leevtr – Emotions (fear, lust, envy .. indifference, et al) has nothing to do with our current predicament. Forget all about that stuff.

It’s the mathematics my friend. You just cannot argue with the maths. I don’t care about the economists, the banksters, the politicians, the press, the financial commentators and all the doom-and-gloomers out there. Forget all about them too.

See, you just cannot escape, change or alter the basic principles of simple Grade 5 arithmetic. It really isn't any more complex than that.

I really hope I'm wrong btw.

Time for me to STFU, I think! :frown:

PS - THIS LINK is a highly appropriate to the issue.
.

Coming back to the Cash "Pocket Swap" approach.
 

If my maths and data are correct (Forbes does not publish any more this "useless" info), the 25 richest people in 1997 made a total of 381.7 Billion USD.

The 25 richest in 2011 made 793 billion. That means 207% total increase, or 5,36% steady average annual increase. Those look quite good results, don’t they? So, is it possible that all that cash came from someone’s else savings?

I should quit this line of thinking and focus on trips, brakes and valve clearance… it's much more enjoyable. My head’s been a little too hot yesterday and today (I knew someone else was fired here in Switzerland too :frown:).

But it’s nice to share some other thoughts here as well.

I worked on a car today that costs £74000. When you open the door, the steering wheel moves upwards eight inches to accomodate your hefty diabetes inducing gut, then when you put the key in, it moves down to stop you straining your weak and useless excuses for arms. I tried to move the 4.5 litre waste of finite resources forwards later, and couldn't find the gearstick, before realising it had paddles behind that oh so accomodating wheel, because changing gear traditionally takes time and effort that our busy days just don't have any room for nowdays. Then I had to reverse it back to where I started, and was surprised when the behemoth spoke to me, and blared through the workshop too. It told me to watch out for obstacles, because the manufacturers probably didn't want to get sued for not warning me things could be behind me, or warning the hypothetical pedestrians that walking into a moving car could hurt.

Being fit and healthy, using old technology that works, and using the neck and eyes that we used to use to look where we were going, not to mention the brain held up there, is so 20th century. We can buy our way out of our stagnant pit. Can't we?

While I was working on this car (if you are interested, a new rear bumper at a cost of £687 (part only) and a rear left hand light cluster at a cost of £224 part only) I was listening to the radio. Japanese Ragweed was the hot topic, which was described as 'terrifying,' 'your worst nightmare,' and 'something that should never happen to anyone.' I daydreamed happily about sending these useless mouths to Afghan to teach them the meaning of terror. The news was describing a bunch of overpaid and over important stuffed suits with nice houses as 'rebels,' for mildly dissenting over irrelevant financial matters. 'Fluff you Che, get out of here Von Stauffenberg, up yours Lenin, the tory conference is here and they are rebelling while they eat their cakes and drink their tea.' I turned to a commercial station, and was told that my 'Shopping Soulmate' is coming soon in town. It's a new shopping centre, like the old one, but bigger, and sells more stuff so we can work harder, for less money, for longer, to buy more stuff we don't need. I hope if I have a soulmate out there, she's not such a b**ch.


It sickens me that £74000 of intrinscially worthless paper give the owner of this car respect in our society. We seem to be progressing with no regard for where we are going, or slowing down to ask 'why?'

I'm a little bit sick of a society that is of no more innate worth than the corrupt and childish fuel that runs and motivates it. I've barely set foot back here and I want to leave again.

Oh, but I can't yet, as the bits of paper have taken a mind of their own, and the men in control of them have lost that control. While somehow they still get richer....? real life; stranger than science fiction.

I think that was my way of saying, 'yes, I fully agree with you Mr Estebangc!'

I'm off traveling for a long period, then returning to Spain to live on my mountain, herd goats and sit at my typewriter until the planet chokes on our filth and sends us the way of the dinosaurs.

Birdy

(Btw, it's good to be back people!)

I totally agree. Although, there seems to be no way out of it if you live in the Western World. You literally can not legally live outside the system. There is nowhere you can live, sleep and sustain yourself without breaking a law.

I've often looked into ways to escape and live "off the grid" but it seems practically impossible unless I want to be a lonely old hermit in the deep Yukon interior. Even then I would need visa's, cash, reasons, checking on etc etc.

I was getting upset with the same problem. I hate the fact that our right to infinite choice in every avenue of our daily life has robbed us of the one important one; the choice not to choose.

I feel like we're foie gras geese, having the same fatty muck ladled down our throats, unable to spit it out and say 'NO, I DON'T WANT IT! Nothing more than vessels for what comes out of us (labour mainly in our human case, rather than livers.) And then after we've consumed, and given up that labour, we're sold it back in the goods we've just provided for the fat shovellers - to make them more money!

What a depressing cycle. Makes me want to go online and buy something shiny, eat some processed comfort food and ring up to vote on X-Factor. (Or not.)

At least they don't frog march geese into Tescos and make them buy back their artificially engorged organs.

I dreamed as a younger man, that I would escape in Africa or the Middle East, but as a white man, it is so difficult. Spain has turned into my best hope. The place I have been living most of last year, with an incredible Dutch woman, is as close as 'off the grid' as I've found, completely self sufficient, there's no heating bills or electricity to pay when you don't have either, no rent to pay on a house made of stones from the mountains around it, no money needed to buy the services you don't want or need. Just goats and mountains, manual labour, fresh air and hard work, and hoping you don't stab yourself in the neck with a chisel or eat poisonous berries miles from help.

Birdy

The paradox is that maybe the owner of that car, whose dream is just to possess as many things like that to prove he's a successful guy... may be just fired tomorrow, picking up all his stuff in a cardboard box from his office (Merrill Lynch or Lehmann Bros), coming back home wandering how the f**k is he going to pay the huge mortgage he got to afford his massive penthouse... what was I thinking about when I thought bonus and salary would last forever? I may have just a salary, very big one, but just an employee, another idiot serving the system. He may be much closer to the vast majority than what he thinks... And they actually most are.

Or he may be a great guy, hard worker, who decided to follow that path. No resentment at all, he spends his money in what he likes, as any of us. If he does it because of social status... I pity him, it will never be enough then, just a constant suffering because of the Riva yacht he cannot afford. If he is a entrepreneur working long hours, giving young (and old people) a chance in his project, thumbs up, the society needs them and their initiative.

What I am hating here and now are those blood-suckers speculating with food, with raw materials, with mortgages, buying politicians, deciding the future candidates to govern nations, crushing all the SME network, willing to take the pound, the crown or any other currency out of the market with their attacks, no worrying at all about the consequences, the families loosing their jobs, houses, savings (and grandad's gold teeth again!) because of their actions.

The ones who seem to be ruling this world more clearly than ever, calculating in advance what's coming, how the welfare state cannot go any further, how in the future you will only aspire to the be bloody employee of the month in a stupid fast food restaurant, with no space for a family run one.

Those are the problem... although they seem to forget that, if going too far... the minority cannot put the majority under the yoke, no matter how many News of the World to manipulate them they may have.

PS: Time to sleep, I have to produce tomorrow some foie gras for the system... :D

I believe the human body can survive equally well without both a Bentley AND a seven year old Africa Twin with a full tank of fuel and a carnet in the tank bag. Get rid of the jobs that come with the chance to buy the Bentley and no one can make the AT's. Average the worlds resources equally through the worlds population and we'll be lucky to have a bicycle. Your dangerous chisel in the off grid house is made from metal dug from a multi-billion dollar hole full off multi-billion dollar machinery which is built and operated by a lot of bicycle riders, a few AT owners and the odd Bentley driver. Be careful what you wish for.

Andy

PS Come the revolution when we all get any choice we like, I'm going to be a beer taster, but only when I'm not out riding :rofl:

I happened to be born in the 20th c West, I didn't really have much of a choice whether I consumed or not. It doesn't mean I have to like it. But if we are going to average resources, I don't think asking for a few Iron Age tools is asking for too much! I would happily forgo just about everything we have to live a harmonious and self sufficient life off the land. I've not found anything that makes me happier. I liked the Zeitgeist films, but by the third one I thought their solution was ridiculous - we need less, not more.

That's my problem with the 74grand car owner. He, and 95 percent of this country are not puppet masters or controllers. They are the majority, indebting themselves, enslaving themselves, wasting precious resources. The powerful minority don't need to do much, they just offer shiny trinkets and we queue up to be yoked into the machine like cattle, or Indians accepting smallpox blankets.

Unfortunately, I wasn't born in a different world, or a different time, so I am now going to have to be a dreadful hypocrite, and go yoke myself to the machine so I can afford to live!

+1 Mountain man. Summed it up to perfection.Nothing more to add.

these threads fascinate me. People cry about how corrupt and how bloddy awful America is, but nobody ever lives someplace else? How many US expats do you know who have renounced their citizenship? Why is it that EVERYONE wants to come to the US?

Folks, living off the grid is very simple: Take a lesson from the Amish.
However, you can't have a new BMW GS and a Flat-scrreen to watch the game. No designer beer. No Sidi boots...yada, yada.

I'm obviously an American, and I love it here. This place has been good to me.:thumbup1:

Then I want your road bike in addition to my MTB!!!! :oops2:
It's being said before, there is just one cake to share and we've been just lucky to be born in these countries and have the AT. It doesn't mean that you don't care about the guys not so fortunate that ride bicycles or just walk.

But the guy with the Bentley seems to want to seize over all the ATs and bicycles so that he may have a whole collection of Bentleys and in addition make us all pay a toll on our way walking to his mine... if he could.

Who blamed "America" (not the USA, nor the whole continent, pls)? Whether I missed that part or misunderstood the suceptibility... doh Only saw "West" as a whole package (USA, EU, etc), not as California, Oregon and Washington.

Agree with estebangc's comment. Where does the "America(n)" comment come from? One person in post number 10 mentions it by saying they are travelling from Europe to there (maybe doing a m/c trip?), otherwise no mention. Definitely an odd comment.

My opinion on the topic: The people get the government they deserve. Being British I'm proud to say I didn't vote Thatcher (start of the Greed is Good Britain era) in 79 pp (too young) and not Blair (son of Thatcher) in 97 pp. So I can sleep with a clear conscience.

What have I done to stop the rot? Nothing. So I should really stop complaining about the situation. Hang on, I did once boycott an event where the (now disgraced) CEO of HBOS bank was the guest speaker. Probably too little too late.

cheers
C

Chris, it was never my intent to piss anyone off. I get easily fired up when politics gets whipped out. There is another thread tittled "the world according to America" or some such that is so far left I couldn't read it with my right eye open.

It seems to me that a solution should be presented, not just a problem

Of course he wants to, it's human nature. These guys have always been there and done that and become tribal chiefs, Kings, CEO's of banks, whatever. I've worked for plenty. It starts when they decide a 16 hour day is fine until they get to University and then until they get a job and then until their company is up and running and then until the recession is over and then until the house is finished and the boat built and then until.....Oh dear heart attack at 61. They waste resources along the way for sure. This urge to have a car with a TV in the back (they watch work stuff) and the urge to ruin a good walk by hitting a little white ball while talking work on their mobiles is indeed pointless but its what convinces them that not having a life is worth it. The mess though is only half the story, they deal with their fellow overpaid idiots by having meetings at four in the morning rather than telling the customer where to shove his project. It would be nice if we all played nicely and didn't need these fools but it ain't going to happen.

I was fortunate enough to travel in Eastern Europe before the Berlin wall came down. The fools working 70 hour weeks to advance a grade in the party or in the cardiac ward were just the same as our Vice-deputy-under-sub-president of pumping systems trying to become a Deputy-Vice-Sub-President for Fluid Transfer, they simply got there using a different set of code words. By having a reward system for them based on power as well as big cars and houses the majority trying to strike the right balance just got less. (Engineers the world over BTW are just the same, we want to do the job then go home and you better let us or you'll find yourself ankle deep in Glow-in-the-dark water regardless of what car you drive and the paperwork will show you signed it off :rofl:).

Andy

IMO, nobody is p!ssed off by anyone else on his forum.

A solution to the problem: Repatriate all the w(b)ankers' money, line them and their crooked politician friends (after first stealing all their stolen money back from them) on the edge of a cliff and... (Fill in your own ending).

With ref to the World according to... map thread: If you were able to have both eyes open when you read the words written, you'd see clearly what was meant by the thread.

Off to ride a bike. :scooter:

Couldn't agree more, I have always said governments are just a reflect of the population, we get what we deserve (quite often for any regime, not only democracies). However... I start to change that view, since those powerful guys seem to be narrowing my options more and more. It's like: what do you prefer for lunch, shit or excrements? That's all? Yeah, that's all (two adequate candidates chosen by others). Add manipulating the public opinion so I think I am actually deciding (a shit): is it still valid "the candidate supported by The Sun wins the elections" after the News of the World Scandal? Is there really a decision left to us?

Very interesting your visit to the Eastern block before the fall. I would have loved to see it by myself... (I was 13 when the wall).

Anyway, I may be undeniably stupid in many fields, but I hope I didn't not come from planet Utopia in a space shuttle. Of course there are ambitious and greedy people (did I say that I wanted your bicycle?), as there are serial killers, nobody tried to deny that. The point I clumsily tried to raise was:

is the system being redesigned so that those bastards take (de facto) over all in here? Is it just because of that that the richer get muuuuch richer, the middle class dissappears in many countries (and gets progressively reduced in ours) and the poorers get much poorer and miserable?

Since there is no more counterbalance (call it Communists), is the capitalist race going just way too far and we live a fake democracy too much controlled by those guys? I can't see any leader who deserves that title, they all look to me more and more like a marionette. I see people loosing jobs and more "dancing with the stars" on TV to keep us busy. Was it called alienation?

If I am in a dictatorship and they rob all the richness and there is censorship, well, that's it, a dictatorship. But if I am (supposedly) in the most advanced democracies, WTF a democracy is that????

Well, if you really want to know who runs the world, a group of Swiss researchers have worked it out -

Revealed – the capitalist network that runs the world - physics-math - 19 October 2011 - New Scientist

The link will probably only work for a few days so if you're into this sort of stuff you probably need to get over there quickly.

My (very jaded) view of all politicians: Same shit, different arse. I distrust the moral fibre of all politicians.

:offtopic: I read somewhere that "Politics is like Hollywood for ugly people". (No anti-American sentiment intended. Please substitute other movie making areas of the world if this reference offends :blushing:). This is certainly true for the late Robin Cook or the slightly less late John Prescott, who even managed to find women to have affairs with.

It's lunchtiime and I'm here at a McD francise using their free wifi. I feel the need to go buy a Big Mac to eat, or I could just throw it straight down the bog, without letting it pass through my body first. :innocent:

crisis? what crisis!
 

Eat when you are hungry, scratch when you are itchy, uck when you are orny, sleep when you are tired, ride when you feel like it....if you are able to do this count your blessings and don't let the paranoia get to you......half of the stuff we are scared of actually doesn't happen at all! Oh yeah...be kind to one another, I almost forgot.
Rob

Welcome to the New Age of Feudalism
 

Interesting thread,

We like to think that we are masters of our own destiny but the reality is somewhat different. The education system and the media really control most peoples' attitude and behaviour. There are some of us who see beyond this (lots of engineers I bet). But dissenters are demonised as cranks, or increasingly, terrorists who want to destroy our way of life!

Democracy only works on the day of voting, after that the politicians become part of the corrupt system that remains in place. Large corporations (banks and media mostly) control the politicians and once elected the politicians soon dance to their tune. How else can you explain politicians taking money from the poorest and middle classes and giving it directly to the bankers.

In the US the big financial institutions are technically bankrupt but are allowed -encouraged even- to pass their bad debts to the Fed and collect billions in cash. Then the Fed tells Obama to give them more money. The ordinary Joe's then have to foot the bill through austerity and taxes.

Capitalism in principle works but the problem here is that the governments have stepped in to subvent the natural law: if you make bad bets, you lose. They saved, and continue to save, bankrupt institutions with taxpayers money regardless of the social impact or moral correctness.

Despite being technically bankrupt, these financial institutions have increased their stranglehold on the system and are still acting to ensure that their profits and bonuses are protected. Politicians are actively conspiring with them. Guess who Tony Blair and other world politicians now work for? (Well actually they always did..)

Remember the corporate asset strippers from the eighties? We are now at the stage where the Financial Institutions are asset stripping soverign nations and destroying economies to preserve their commission. It is no coincidence that the amout of wealth 'destroyed' during this crisis is almost equivalent to the additional wealth accrued by the wealthies corporations and people.

There are a few genius' who control the whole board but they have relatively low profiles. They invented the various derivitive instruments and got out before they blew up -stupid they ain't.

They have now moved into commodoties because this is where the money is now. People have to eat and need energy. Commodity prices are on the rise and as the 99% become poorer so they have less of everything. The real result is that poorer people will die in greater numbers -not just in Third World countries but in developed nations.

Welcome back to the New Age of Feudalism.

YOU MEANT IT, MAN! This is the point I wanted to rise, but much better explained (probably you are an engineer and I am not!). :welcome:

Here it is: "It is no coincidence that the amout of wealth 'destroyed' during this crisis is almost equivalent to the additional wealth accrued by the wealthies corporations and people".

The great invention: I privatize my benefits and collectivize my looses. Add the "tooo big to fail" doctrine and get everyone to agree. [Those few become richer, most of us become poorer].

Even better: you lend money to those unable to pay it. Then you sell those credits as good and make profit. When they are not paid, others suffer the consequences. In my language that is called SCAM.

And these are not conspiracy theories, just facts in the news everyday.

Cheers, Wheee! bier

Esteban

I dont think it was planned, but people should have seen it coming.

Giving people credit that with an educated guess it should have been obvious that it couldn't be paid back.

What concerns me more is the latest revelations over the Greek debt. Anyone see the Euro collapsing in the next 18 months?

well I thought I had spotted a "MAD MAX" like figure approaching on the far horizon for a split second... but he is to far away to tell...

Will know more next year, during the crossing of Greece, riding south to the Caucasus... therefore I'm watching the developments with interests...

Now look at it in a way, that the Euro was introduced without asking the European population in the 1st place... there was a referendum about the question only allowed in a very few countries like Denmark... and the old Vikings didn't like the idea of a new currency at all... would the politician have asked the Germans.. well there would not be a thing such a Euro in Germany yet... even most of the Dutch are very much disappointed by now and would rather go back to there Gulden by now... the old Brits... well who wonders.. rather keep there world in the old and proven imperial measurements too... the result of the resistance against Napoleon... :thumbup1:

the whole Euro idea was meant for easy big business of the economy in the 1st place, not for the folk who lives there... anyway one currency makes travelling easy too, but that's it as far I can see... Europe is so full of different mentalities and customs, which is a delight to experience but never will fit under one hat...
yeah I think I can tell for all European in that case... politicians never thought about the possibility that there is one thing in common among the Europeans, they rather drink there own beer or wine... and don't like others to pour either sugar nor salt in to it... but learned to respect there neighbours to do so in to there own drinks..
yea the Euro eventually will collapse in the long run.. bier

Well my word, what wise words. And from two Eurozoners (wheee! and spooky) at each end of the spectrum, who both have the right.

[Slighty off topic:]
And spooky, you’re onto it. I used to love riding around western/central Europe back in the 1990s. Reckon I must have covered around 80,000 km (50,000 miles) over in ‘Europe’ throughout that decade. It was sooooo diverse back then. Each trip was a real adventure. Yunno what I mean; changing your money at each border (okay, so you lost a little bit on the exchange .. but so what?!) Crossing from one sovereign country into another, meant a different culture (and language) to immerse yourself in. Passports were even checked sometimes too. I loved it all.

Now mainland Europe seems to have lost something? Each country used to have its own unique identity. Now it’s kinda morphing into one seamless and bland entity. Wherever you go it’s nearly all the same. Same money, same road signs, same everything. A bit boring really. What a shame .. :(

Anyone else feel like me?
:confused1:

.

"Remember the corporate asset strippers from the eighties? "


Where do you go to watch them? Do you have to tip?

No it's not planned it's because of the greed and manipulation of large conglomerate corporations. Those that work for them swallow the "chicken little" panic of their cashed up and overpaid directors.
So what can you do ?
DO NOT WORK FOR LARGE CORPORATIONS :nono: If you do, start planning a life away from them. It may be a downsize but your life will improve and you will have the piece of mind that you're not a part of the problem.

How the EU bailout package works
 

It is a slow day in a dusty little Greek town near Thessaloniki . The sun is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

On this particular day a rich German tourist called Angela Merkle' is driving through the town, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner she wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.

The owner gives her some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the pub.

The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.

The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note.

The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.

At that moment the German traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

a different view:

Afterburner with Bill Whittle: Three and a Half Days - YouTube=

First let's put our tin foil hats on ....

of course there's an economic crisis going on ... there's plainly less dollars (eur or what ever) going around.

as for if it was planned question? don't think it's possible to plan anything on a GLOBAL scale. what is possible and recently happened is... MEGA corporations/entities taking advantage of natural disasters.

tin foil hats still on tight?

when I ask people this simple question... What is the largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world? most folks are stumped, including a published economist that posed the question to. his answer was when the British banking system collapsed in 1772 in the East India bubble.

now we can get to the point of all this... after Katrina fuel prices in USA spiked from about $1.29 gal to over $3 gal almost overnight.. then raising to over $4 gal ... naturally what ever happens in America trickles down to rest of the world.

result is $$$TRILLIONS was pulled out of the world economies. there is NOTHING else of this magnitude in this time frame that could cause a world recession.

this transfer of wealth from literally each and everyone in the world into petroleum companies (public, private & state owned) coffers. resulted in the largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world!

with tin foil hats firmly in place... lets travel from global terms to the individual.

in America recently fuel prices has fallen by over $1 per gal from over $4 gal. what that means to literally every single family in America ... instantly there's about $100 per month to spent on whatever.

there is NO lag in this $$$ hitting America's economies. in simplistic terms, if the fuel prices stays and/or goes down further for an extended term. the US economy will come steaming back with rest of world in tow.

what is so amazing ... one almost never see in print... the cause/effect of world's fuel prices as directly responsible for this world recession.

OK... thanks for reading... you can take your tin foil hats off now

Even your $4 gallon sounds like they're giving it away on your side of the pond. If a couple of dollars a gallon pull "trillions" out of the economy and everything stagnates how much does our nearly $10 gallons (or the equivalent in Euros) pull out, given that nearly $7 of that is tax. Take pity on your impoverished fellow europosters and send us a few gallons in the post. :thumbup1: We can use the money we save to help prop up the Euro.

OK .. answering your post requires we put our tin hats back on.

in terms of buying power for a basket of goods. in this case let's use the famous "Big Mac index" found on Economist, most respected publication of it's type in the world. we take a like basket of goods (Big Mac) found all over the world. it takes about the same support system/labor/capital etc to make that Big Mac.

so taking what a Big Mac costs in America as parity zero. compare to what that Big Mac costs is say in Brazil or Greece or what ever. factoring in current exchange rate tell us if that currency is over or under valued to the USD.

http://media.economist.com/sites/def...129_WOC559.gif


now after all that we get to the point.... buying power is what counts... not price tag on goods. If fuel prices was already say $3 gal in that particular country. then it'd have raise to $6 gal for transfer of wealth to achieve same purchasing parity.

If we now remove your rose tinted glasses, you will see that the average price of fuel in the US is currently running at $3.60 for petrol (gas to you) and $4.02 for diesel a gallon.

Now as you Americans are awkward, and can't adopt anything without messing with it, we have to convert your gallon to ours.

This brings your fuel prices in to $4.33 for petrol and $4.84 for diesel per imp/gallon.

Convert this by the current exchange rate, makes your fuel £2.82 for petrol and £3.15 for diesel if it were here in the UK

Now our fuel prices are currently running at £5.86 for petrol and £6.22 for diesel, and as every commodity has to be transported in some way, this is what is crippling the UK (and European) population/industry.

So you can take your tin hat off and get an idea of the cost of this, try putting your fuel costs up to our rate, that means your petrol would now cost $8.99 and your diesel $9.55 (imp gal) or $7.48 petrol $7.95 diesel (us/gal)

Let's see what that does to the cost of your BigMac's......

Now you know why Europe & the EU are in deep s....


Rob

Not so simple, I'm afraid. You have to look at the distances involved and the total cost to business or the individual. You will find that the average Joe in the UK spends the same proportion of his salary on fuel as the average Joe in the US.

I think that's kinda how the UK Govt decides on the price of fuel there.

true da... fuel prices are the direct reason for our global recession. amazing how few words in print point this out. even more amazing how folks that I'm in contact with also deny this.

to put thing in perspective and why I went thru the ropes, bringing out the big mac index and a basket of goods is the true measure of buying power.

before Katrina, fuel prices in the USA was $1-$1.29. in UK prices were already hitting $3 gal. so prices more than doubled here in US, before recently going down $1 gal to $3gal. the same thing happened to entire world... fuel prices more than doubled almost overnight.

tin hats back on.... IMHO BIG oil companies have teams of economist that forecast how hard to squeeze the world economies. it's my belief that BIG oil doesn't want to kill the golden goose... only fleece it.

the world was on the verge of a second dip in this recession. before BIG oil deciding to pull fuel prices back. due to BIG oil's virtual monopoly position. they control prices at will ... no collaboration needed, BIG oil controls regions of the world. from well head to gas station pumps. the thing that's been missing is real competition in the oil industry.

in the USA, refineries in a very short time span went from large number of owners to a tiny handful of owners due to mass consolidation of refineries. their net profits shot up by 30x+ so they were forced to go on an acquisition binge to shelter those profits from taxes.

IMHO the thing they fear is politicians. for they changed the rules allowing them to merge back together. for all practical purposes, Standard Oil is back together. Politicians can change the rules again and break back apart BIG oil.

the other thing they fear is squeezing too hard killing the golden goose, bringing about a total collapse of world economies ... aka 1929 all over again.

Average in UK is 12,000 pa, average in US is 15,000 pa (both taken from gov web sites)

I don't think your average person grasps how much this is effecting our economy. EVERYTHING has to be transported. The cost of running haulage has doubled fuel wise, and along with other changes to emmission control and taxation on road vehicles, the extra costs are driving up the price of everyday goods.

Oh yeah you don't have road tax in the US do you? how do you fancy paying your gov another $600 a year for a round paper disc for your windscreen that entitles you to use the road?

Your quite right about the gov controling the tax though, however I think the higher tax rates here are more to do with a welfare state that is becoming ever more un-sustainable and abused by outsiders. But thats another story.

Rob

Your average Herbert is better off in Europe than North America, in my (extensive) experience of being poor and well off on both continents. How much is it worth to have healthcare?

Totally agree, we are in a much better position with our healthcare, it's the envy the world over. And here in lies the problem, when it's become the 'norm' from people form other counties to come here to use it.

I'm not saying anyone should be denied medical attention if they are in need of it, but coming to the UK to have a baby as the airfare here is cheaper than the medical bills back home is frankly taking the p.

Do you want to go down the housing and benefits route too? or is this going off topic too much?


Rob

amazing the disconnect between cause and effect. world's economy is HUGE. logic dictates it would take something equally large to disrupt it in such a short span of time.

unfortunately connecting the dots requires one to think globally. kind of hard to do when one's focus is paycheck to paycheck.

there is no other event large enough within the time frame before almost collapse of world's economies. Oil prices doubling overnight, then proceeding to climb to almost triple prices pre-Katrina.

resulting in the largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world!
yet folks are still having trouble making the connection doh

Up to now, the POLL RESULTS are:

32 votes YES, it was planned (66%)
16 votes NO, it was not (33%)

However, public voters are 10 people saying YES vs. 9 people saying NO. I recall another poll where there were more votes than actual voters, I wonder if that could be the case too. But anyway, it seems that the majority thinks that YES, it was planned, or that those voters are more active (more probable).

Of course, we all here are very fortunate, we do not belong to the big suffering bunch in the 3rd world, but that’d be another topic/discussion.

So, I think those called “causes” (as oil price increases or whatever else) are “means”, while those “triggers” (Katrina) an unreal “excuse”, appearing all blurry and messy behind long articles written by those technocrats… Thus, only one thing looks crystal-clear, the “goal”: fill your own pockets and nothing would be easier/quicker than at others expense. Of course, profit is the reason for an entrepreneurial activity, needless to say, but some cases go a little too far now, I’d say. Your pension fund collapsed? What a shame, it can always happen… Your Social Security System is broke? It was mismanaged by the previous corrupted government, such a bad luck… It seems that we shrug our shoulders and accept it, and I wonder: why?

It seems that nowadays there’s no apparent alternative to our economic system, so there may be some protests, but no big revolutions and therefore less to worry about squeezing the population. It’s clear we are not all going to become communists. No counterbalance, that’s never good (and I am not pro-communism).

But then you read about those semi-secret Bilderberg meetings that even appear in the newspapers and you say: what do the richest/most powerful people on Earth have to talk about when all the talks content absolutely private? I heard it’s all about the future of the global economy. Is that a sort of global masonry or what? It seems they do not represent anyone’s interest other than their own, which is worrying when ministers, etc attend them…

So, if I can forecast a real state bubble in Spain, why wouldn’t they forecast (or plan?) a global collapse? I wonder if they would say: “we have to get ready for what’s coming (and make profit of other’s looses)”; or whatever they have to talk about, that I don’t know, but I assume they do discuss if the colour of the sofas matches the curtains. Furthermore, I think that many of these groups/societies sell values of solidarity (I think masons do, but I don’t know). But what is solidarity only in the frame os a close group? Discrimination against the rest, I assume.

I am probably boring, since I am already boring myself, but the current world would look cool if you watch the MTV, but to me, the future stinks too bad.

can't comment about micro events except within USA. for I was here in Tulsa, OK when it happened. please forgive the American point of view below. but it's an established fact what happens in America ... will shortly happen to the world.

as for the profit motive... nothing wrong with that. it's the American way to squeeze out as much profit as possible. permissible by law of course. which leads us to why things are broken.

charging the American public too much for fuel? price controls is just not the American way. the public is used to being charged what the market will bear. just not for a commodity like fuel.

in America utilities like natural gas, electric power, water, etc. which by necessity have natural monopolies .. are limited to amount of profits they can make by law. ALL rate increases have to be approved by a predetermined process. usually tied to voter approval, etc.

what's missing you say? ... COMPETITION.... that's right what's missing is competition. Due to the blatant non-enforcement of our anti-trust laws against MEGA entities grabbing too much market share within certain geographic regions.

Clinton started it approving mega merger of Exxon/Mobil, but most of the damage happened under Bush II. ALL of the MEGA oil companies were allowed to merge. result is NO collusion needed to control fuel prices. when one MEGA giant oil owns it all from well head to gas station fuel pump. Big Oil simply changes prices at will. prices charged has nothing to do with supply and demand since Katrina.

result is 30x+ pre-Katrina profits to these MEGA giant oil companies in America. guess what ... what happens in America ... shortly will happen to the world. fuel prices skyrocket shortly afterwards to rest of the world.... resulting in the largest transfer of wealth in the history of the world ... and a near collapse of world's economies.

estebangc "but to me, the future stinks too bad."

I think you need a little cheering up
The world today was created in the greater part by technology not economists, venture capitalist, toadying politicians or trade unionists (remember when they complained that computers where putting people out of a job doh), we are truly at the footsteps of great knowledge.
The Berlin wall fell, imo, because of stolen tv satellite feeds showing up the lies of their government, and yes, opulence.
The Arab spring was a combination of people power and the communication revolution.
Indian farmers stopping mid-plough to get the latest prices for his goods or a weather report on his mobile.
The emancipation of women around the world because of social networking.
Centralised medical information giving real-time access to doctors and specialists from around the world.
Engineering and physics have designed fully self reliant homes from sewerage to power and water, it only takes the personal will to create such.
There are also no excuses today for being misinformed (as opposed to being misled) even poorly educated people as myself have all the info at their fingertips, and rest assured the people you complain about fear greatly an informed populace.
Something else we could do on a personal level is to abandon terms such as "Third World"," The West"(I'm from Down-under it always seemed a funny term :) ) and others that invariably came from economists addiction to a Linnaeus like categorising of human beings.
Remember, estebangc, that you live in a society not an economy.
You can drop by my place any time, pull up your feet and have a cold one.
You are an adventurer, you are part of the adventurers community .bier

May I say I agree with every point you mentioned (including I should cheer up more!!bier)? :thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1: Probably your position is the right one to live happier, but I just cannot avoid the other one to sometimes come to my mind...

Of course, I do not think life is horrible, nor that current conditions are unbearable. No, that would the false and very selfish as well. I totally agree with you about the enormous possibilities technological advances offer us nowadays. Economy is not all and personally, I am really happy with what I have (don't have a yacht -actually, nor a house- but it doesn't make me less happy). BTW, I used those terms to make it easier, I don't like to say "less developed countries" (I know, technically no more commies, so no more 3rd world or non aligned states).

I refer to future in the long run, just trying to see/forecast if something wrong is going on, before it is too late... You come from OZ, so one example. I was there in 1998 and last year again. Really loved i. But also thought: there is an economic bubble here and in some years it may burst. Sorry if it sounds too bad, it was my impression as well, although I'd love to be totally wrong.

The same for Spain, my (beloved) homeland: we were growing a lot and everyone was "happy-go-lucky" buying expensive cars/TVs/etc getting all that (fake) cash from the banks. Things were going so well that nobody thought that this could change, so when you find it out, then it’s too late.

My father is a farmer and he had an apartment on the coast for the family holidays. "Dad, you don't use it, we have to sell it now before the bubble bursts. In addition, the future for agriculture is uncertain, so it will be good to have the cash" (it was "worth" ca. 5 times the price he bought it 20 years before, isn't it mad??). What bubble, nobody was talking about any bubble back at home? Well, nobody wanted to look at that. Actually, there were signs, but nobody wanted to accept those facts when told about it. Real estate bubble did burst and fortunately, we had already sold the apartment. Not smarter than anyone else, only a little lucky, maybe due to thinking about a difficult future for agriculture.


In Australia I saw a tremendous growth, amazing cars, great consumption and other facts that led me to think: doesn’t it look similar? I know, Australia is a much richer country, with plenty of natural resources. And I’d love to be wrong. But wouldn’t it be better to be ready in case that happened? Say, Spain, Ireland, Greece, Argentina in the past, etc.

In a sentence: grow quickly, crash hard.

Of course, I'm not the Jim Rogers "the investment biker", I dislike stocks and that stuff (aka speculation), but sometimes it is there to read it, some people do it and make the profit and others do not pay attention and suffer it. Actually, we all regular people might more or less suffer it: nowadays, I’d like to come back to Spain, but it’s the very worst moment, due to lack of jobs… and you need to work to get a life.

Future (in the world, and particularly the Western nations)? My feeling is that something wrong is going on, and it will go worse and worse. This crisis imply that middle class becomes lower class, lower class becomes poor/homeless and pensioners may not have any more pension, small and medium enterprises go bankrupt and only BIG companies survive taking all the market share, growing a lot in the long run making some guys at the top of the pyramid even richer, at the expense of the guys on the lower steps.

In the meantime, despite this thread, I prefer to think about travelling and motorcycling.
:D

Rose coloured glasses, ten for a dollar !
 

Taking off the rosy specs' for a sec.
I don't know whether we will survive as a large communal species. Historians can tell you what happened in the past but they can't tell you why. What was the mood of the people?, why did they do the things they did?. Same today, if the collective negative reaches a tipping point all bets are off.

"May you live in uninteresting times" Chinese proverb
We are in a time of transition, it's how you roll with it. :)

cont... couldn't edit doh
 

Australia is no different to others in the world economically, we've all got our fingers stuck in others nether regions and we all go down together. estebanc, your are correct in your observations of OZ, many here saw no benefit from our mining boom and are now being prepared for a downturn. The consequence of this arrogance is the dawning realisation that economists don't know our moods and are talking out of their collective ar$ewholes. ;)

Be sure that those who saw no benefit will suffer the recession, while those who made the gains won't suffer the looses... Actually, they are probably getting ready to have the cash to invest and make more money when/if the crisis strikes... (they may even live faaaar away from OZ!) I guess that's my point (if I have any, not sure yet doh).

In the meantime, ride a (cheap) bike while it (bike and/or $) lasts, you've got a beautiful country! ;)

Loved Spain estabanc, How can an Aussie not like a red soiled hot country, with cervasas, manyana and a little siesta :) ... and all the hot ladies you got ;)

This guy says there is - and I agree with him.




And it was planned.

The poll doesn't ask yes or no. It asks yes or NOW. so some like me didn't vote.

Reading some of these post have give me a strange feeling..not really
pleasant.

My father told me that i always have to create my own truth and reality.
And that is what i still do and always want to do.
And we never wait for politics to change things ,becouse its a waist of time.
I have no negetive feeling against them no ,they do what they do,and i do my own thing.
I think i might be ignorant and different than most people.
That's why i found it hard to work for a boss,and started my own little business.


Crisis or not i still have the most beautiful days, biking ,fishing ,hiking,and
still have food on the table.
But we are so obsessed by material things that ,if we cannot buy the latest or newest we feel like things are going bad!,
I think it is possible to have less money but feel better than ever.:palm:
just get on with it and keep those Rose coloured glasses on.
And if there 10 for a dollar i buy 20!

Everybody has there own truth.

Saludos

There are some simple connections to be made here. It all comes down to the fact that resources are limited. It doesnt matter what resources we are talking about, we live in a finite world, and as yet science has failed to come up with any form of energy that does not cost more (in pollution and effort) than it produces. In fact to date all technology simply degrades the world we live in more.

Now i can hear you saying what has this got to do with economic crisis. It is directly relevent because if we accept that resources are limited and that our current social and economic structures rely on growth then we are inevitably going to run into trouble. economic trouble, social trouble and enviromental trouble. Its simply a matter of which happens first, if indeed it doesnt all happen at once. we have a simple choice either live within our resources (which means being pretty damned minimal), or accept that carrying on as we are is effectively going to cause alot of trouble for us and the planet, albeit probably for the next generation or 2 to come.

what we are seeing now is a collaberation of human induced problems. Over population, over consumption and pollution. One of the side effects of this is economic problems, which are only likely to get worse. Put it this way if we were to go back to hunter gathering at our current population level we would run out of food within weeks. Nature (i.e the planet) cannot provide enough for us to live on (at a basic level) without farming. Farming at the intensive level we need to maintain in order to feed the 7 odd billion people on the planet is massively degrading the environment. So we cant carry on farming intensively without ruining the very resources we need in order to farm (i.e 250kg of top soil lost for every 20kg of wheat in america) and our population is set to rise. Thus natural resources are our achilles heal and social systems that treat finite resources as if they are endless (and without any regard for the future) will enevitably fail.

I would therefore argue that whether or not the current crisis was planned in advance is kinda irrelevent, Under our current mode of resource use it is just the logical outcome. the question is what do we do about it? we (and by we i mean the global population) need to drag our heads out of the denile bucket and face up to the situation. Global governments need to be honest with their populations about the real effect of consumerism, its a dead end.

Now dont get me wrong, I'm no hermit living the good life. I do infact have no problem with things going the way they are. I quite honestly dont think it really matters and truly believe that in some respects you may as well enjoy it while it lasts. What really gets my goat however is people profiting from the misery of others and i would suggest that its this behaviour that got us into this situation in the first place.

Profit, is the problem.

check out this link for an explanation of where rampant consumerism goes. its n ot a political statment just a simple explanation of exponential growth.

The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8) - YouTube

(Watch all 8 episodes if you really want to get to the heart of the problem)

Also is you want to see how predictable the current economic problem is check out 'small is beautiful' by Edwarde Schumacher. He pretty much predicted the current circumstances back in the 70's.

F-f-f-f-barclaysf
 

:2guns: :mad2:

This is the wisest thing said in this whole thread.

(1) Democracy is doomed, because voters are selfish, ignorant and irresponsible. Democracy assumes voters (in a national election) vote for what they think is best for the country. In reality, voters vote for whats best for themselves. Its a total corruption of the concept. Voters are selfish, narrow minded fools, who think only of themselves and only for the short term. All politicians do is humor the voters. They just give the voters what they want. No politician competes on the basis of principle - they compete on the basis of populism -cause thats what the voters want. Democracy is not about good policy, its about buying votes.

(2) The flipside of demanding the right to vote (power to the people), is voters MUST take total responsibility for the outcomes. i.e. The western world has the policies it voted for. Stop blaming everyone else (politicians, bankers, bilderbergers, ufos, muslims, christians, buddhists, chinese, jewish conspiracies or whoever) , and accept that the general publics votes, the general publics economic naivity is responsible. If you live in a democracy, then stand up and accept its your responsibility and your fault.

Either that, or stand down from voting.

Democracy is an absurd system, where the completely naive and ignorant have a say in what economic policies or foreign policies a country has, while having no clue about the consequences. Why are we always told its a sacred cow? Why is it taboo to question the wisdom (or stupidity) of democracy itself.

And why do the public, who demand the right to vote and the right to criticise, take absolutely ZERO responsibility for the consequences of their votes?

One of my favourite quotes in history is from the great Charles de Gaulle - [in a democracy] a leader must either betray his country or betray the electorate. I prefer to betray the electorate.

That is blame fairly apportioned, IMHO. Fcuking parasites.

Otherwise I largely agree with Tom and your posts.

Global growth never stopped
 

Getting back to the OP ... the western world is in and out of recession. Growth is flat or slightly negative.

But global growth is still well positive. China, India, Russia, Brazil etc are all still growing rapidly. In China, a slowdown means growth slows from 10-15% a year to 7-8%. But its still dramatically up. And Global growth is still up, every year, around 2.5 - 3%. So if you are rolex, and selling ever increasing percentages of your products in places like China and Russia, you can easily be getting record sales while western markets are gloomy and negative.

Have a look at Jaguar and Range Rover sales in Russia and China since 2008 ... and how they have grown. Here's a recent one year snapshot ... up 40 % in Russia and 75% in China .... in 1 year.

http://www.themanufacturer.com/artic...rd-sales-year/

I agree that democracy may not be the most efficient system, but personally I cannot think of anything as fair and just for our cultural environment (and to me this is more important than efficiency). If there is a feasible alternative I'd like to share thoughts about it and the criteria for its practical application.

IMO my vote is not any more worthy than the one of the shepherd in the mountains who never went to school and cannot read nor write. Certainly, I had better chances to attend school and university than he had, but that does not guarantee that I have any more common sense than him. Just because he couldn't that shouldn't exclude him. I could also be excluded because I do not hold a PhD in Physics from Harvard.

Sometimes it's depressing how people keep on voting the same, no matter what happened. I fear those a lot. I had that in my region: after huge corruption scandals, they voted them anyway. I felt ashamed, frustrated. Vote whatever, but not the same. Well, I have to accept it, as in a excursion: if you are in the group, sometimes the decision may not be the best and you may know it, but you accept it.

And if the alternative means a few "technocrats" ruling us, I worry more than this ELITE will be more selfish than the whole population in a democracy. It is too tempting to think "I'll get more because I deserve more than the others, because I'm better and smarter and they still should be thankful because I rule them".

I agree, democracy is a very imperfect system, but other systems (I insist, in our current cultural context) seem worse to my eyes. The point is that democracy is pretty corrupted too, so that would be my focus, to clean it somehow, to improve the system. A hard if not impossible task.

In times of crisis during the Roman Republic, the Senate could name a "dictator" for 6 months if order to set things right, when there were big big trouble. That could be an option, when all is a mess, I could agree with that temporary solution. But (nowadays) I don't know how to guarantee that the dictator would hand the power back once he finishes the period or has set things write. Anyone who know more about Roman politics/history? Any (other) thoughts/alternatives?

Yes, there is growth elsewhere, fortunately. And these countries finally get the chance they deserved. We (Westerners) are decandent. And we cannot exclude them any more from sharing the cake. So there is growth, but certainly not that much here in the West.

My point is not whether the world grows or not, but whether behind the economic crisis there is actually a hidden transfer of wealth from low and middle classes to really high-end upper class. It may not matter if real state/shares/whatever goods are worth more or less, but that now some may have more of them.

I try to show the idea with an example: lambs were worth 2€/each and the (wealthy) guy had 100 lambs (total 200€). Now he has 180 lambs which are worth 1€/each, so he is poorer and complains (total wealth: 180€). No, man, you are richer, because money is a fiction, a convention, and now you have 180 lambs and that's what counts, not the €. The only thing is that for you to have 80 more lambs, 80 people lost their only lamb and went straight into total misery for the sake of you to become wealthier.

Potlatch - the redistribution of wealth
 

Potlatch
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Potlatch (disambiguation).
Not to be confused with Potluck.


A potlatch[1][2] is a gift-giving festival and primary economic system[3] practiced by indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast of Canada and United States. This includes Heiltsuk Nation, Haida, Nuxalk, Tlingit, Makah, Tsimshian,[4] Nuu-chah-nulth,[5] Kwakwaka'wakw,[3] and Coast Salish[6] cultures. The word comes from the Chinook Jargon, meaning "to give away" or "a gift"; originally from the Nuu-chah-nulth word p̓ačiƛ, to make a ceremonial gift in a potlatch.[1] It went through a history of rigorous ban by both the Canadian and United States' federal governments, and has been the study of many anthropologists.

Please see Edward Curtis photos of a Kwakwaka'wakw potlatch with dancers and singers.

At potlatch gatherings, a family or hereditary leader hosts guests in their family's house and holds a feast for their guests. The main purpose of the potlatch is the re-distribution and reciprocity of wealth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, there is a general economic crisis. The Potlach is still practiced in the United States and by the European Union with both democrats and republicans and the leaders of European countries gifting the banks, insurance companies and big investors - most notably Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, AIG etc with very little gifting by actual percentage going to working class citizens who support the potlatch through their hard work.

The U S Treasury , the Federal Reserve a private off shore corporation created by the most wealthy families, bankers and european royalty in 1913,
have managed to keep the interest rates near zero - and giving this money in exchange for worthless investments like sub prime mortgages - they the democrats , republicans, US Treasury , Federal Reserve, bankers, central bankers of Europe and investment houses have themselves created... not to mention the derivative markets and that tricky business of using the same collateral for loans again and again and again with no limit and without any controlling regulations especially if you are in the London market.

xfiltrate

Well I can not talk about the cultural environment, but from a health, wealth and education perspective, the advantages of democracy are not what we are led to believe.

But its the bankruptcy of the concept that concerns me most - from the bottom to the top.

I mentioned earlier that at at one end of the democracy illusion you have the voters ... almost no voters vote for the interests of the country ... pretty much all vote for selfish reasons ... they vote for who will put the most in their pocket. Thats an obviously failure and corruption of the democratic theory.

Second, 85-95% of voters dont change their vote. They vote for the same party regardless of the candidate standing. They voters do not assess the policies. They just vote on tribalism principles. "I vote labour cause I always voted labour and I hate the conservatives." If you are one of those people, or one the other way round, (85-95% of people) then you have FAILED in your responsibility to democracy. You are supposed to assess the candidates and the policies and choose what you think is best for the country. If you simply vote the same way regardless of candidates or policy, then you are failing to assess policy. You are failing to assess the integrity of the candidates. The whole point of having an election is so that the people can decide what ideas have failed, what people have failed, and can change them. If you are not a swing voter, then you are not encouraging the system to change. You are not keeping anyone honest. And you are not involved in improving policy. You give no incentive to candidates to improve. You give no incentive for policy to improve. You are merely being tribal. Non-swing voters have failed in their duty to democracy. The party system is in itself another total corruption of democracy.

At the top end of the tree are the politicians themselves. Do they represent democracy? Who voted for Gordon Brown to be UK prime minister in 2007??? Not one single person. No member of the public voted for him to become PM. In fact not even one member of his own political party voted for him to become PM. Tony Blair just stepped down.

Was Tony Blair ever elected PM? Can anyone ever recall seeing a box on a UK ballot form asking who you want to be the leader of the country? No. It doesnt exist. Tony Blair was voted for by about 40,000 people in Sedgefield. Thats all. Out of 60 million brits, Tony Blair received the backing of 40,000 of them yet becomes the national leader. Those 40,000 gave him what democratic mandate? They mandated him to be their local representative in the national parliament. Thats the only democratic mandate Tony Blair ever received.

What about his ministers? After the PM, the most powerful people in the country. Who voted for Jack Straw to be Home Secretary? No-one. Who voted for Geoff Hoon to be Defence Secretary? No-one. Does the public have any power at all to dismiss these people from their roles? No. Does the House of Commons (our supposedly democratic representatives) have any power to appoint them? No. Does the house have any ability to dismiss them if they are incompetent? No. Neither us, nor our voted representatives have any power to dismiss Ministers. With the sole exception of a no confidence vote which effectively dismisses the entire government.

In the US ... the Senate is all powerful. Second only to the administration in the white house in terms of power. Yet the Senate was designed as a house of review. The second chamber. Its sole responsibility was to review legislation to ensure big states dont bully small states. The senate is completely undemocratic, where the vote of 200,000 Wyoming folk carries the same weight as 20,000,000 Californians. Thats a 100 to 1 gerrymander. And its legal under our "democracy"! The House of Representatives is the democratic house. And yet the House has minimal power. Another example of democracy corrupted.

Secretaries of State in the US are unelected. Just appointed by the whitehouse. The President himself is not elected by popular vote.

So from the top to the bottom .. at every level, from voters to politicians, what we call democracy is completely corrupted from the principle. Voters dont do as they are supposed to. And the roles and power structure at the top are also non-democratic - meaning those at the top of the tree also dont do as they are supposed to.

- - -

I dont know what a better system is. I am merely trying to raise the point that democracy in reality is not a sacred cow. Its flawed at every level. Its twisted and distorted significantly. And its not particularly democratic at all.

I would also mention that the most impressive rises in living standards in world history typically occurred under non-democratic systems.

Hong Kong was a British colony for 150 years. Never had an election until 2 years before they handed it back to the Chinese (then the Brits had the gall to insist to the Chinese to maintain the 2 year old democracy there). Yet for 148 years before that, no-one complained that the colony was run by an unelected governor appointed by London. Under that undemocratic system it became one of the richest regions in the world.

Singapore was a swamp with no money and resources when it held its first elections in 1958. Since them opposition has been effectively banned. Its a one party state. There is no democracy. Yet in that time it has gone from a filthy poor asian fishing village into the top 3 countries in the world by living standards. In a country with ZERO natural resources. One household in six has over a million dollars in disposable wealth (excluding cars, house, luxury items etc). It still is a one party state.

But its not just small Asian states. Large ones too ... Japan is nothing like democratic. Its glory years, the 50s 60s 70s and 80s ... Japan was very much a one party state. They held elections to appease the US overlords, but who ran the country was actually determined by backroom elites within the LDP, not by any voting public.

Same non democratic deal in Taiwan ... except substitute the KMT for LDP.

Australia, Canada, the American states etc all initially became wealthy and with some of the highest living standards in the world under non democratic governorship from London in the 1700s and 1800s. They didnt beceom wealthy and with high living standards due to being run democratically. Democracy came to them long after they were already wealthy.

In todays world ... Compare undemocratic China with democratic India since the late 40s. Similar countries. Similar problems to overcome. Similar starting levels. Despite India having a headstart in terms of infrastructure left by the British, and despite having democracy while the Chinese had to overcome Mao's lunatic dictatorship and zero infrastructure, its the Chinese one party state which has given its people 97% literacy and a GDP per capita of $5500 ... while what has democracy in India delivered its people? 74% literacy and GDP of $1500 per capita. If we compare health and life expectancy, its the same deal. Undemocratic China trumps democratic India - significantly. Whats worth noting, like the Japanese example above, the leader is determined by the back room power brokers within the party ... leaders rule for a set amount of time and are then replaced, peacefully. Similar story with Singapore. Despite being a one party state and there being no democracy, leaders change over completely normally and peacefully. The modern one party state doesnt mean you have a life long dictator.

Again I am not saying one system is superior to another or proscribing alternatives. Just trying to debunk the myths that democracy results in higher health, education, income levels. And that non-democracy equals dictators.

Very interesting points and very valid, I think.

I have often said that what a country needs is a benign dictatorship and that is not so far from where you post leads, I think.

Ride on.

Colebatch's narrative is cogent and contains many valid points, without question, at least IMHO. And MountainMan certainly kicked off the salient issues, if not the causes.

But . . . democracy works just fine if it takes place within a civil society. Sprinkling the right to vote on the uninterested or worse, those that have lived in a "me" (or "we" when that's just tribalism) society doesn't work, clearly. The examples are too numerous. As for the superiority of democracy - Churchill's quote seems to hold.

China's amazing climb . . . it and India's GDP were equal in '92 when China drew EVEN. China has raced ahead. India's done alright but in comparison has languished. Denizens of the Philippines and South Korea like to compare 50 years ago when they were equal. Singapore's climb is also impressive.

But the climbers invariably used the current trading system to game the system. Korea has certainly been innovative in a few areas, far better than China or Singapore (whose main innovation has been importation of large numbers of skilled gast-arbeiter). There are whole book reviews that collect various books authored by former govt officials all over Asia that plainly state how they gamed the system. (Germany has also been not a little guilty of this with a export driven economy that's very modern and a domestic one that looks rather 19th century.)

So while I agree that there are far too many sacred cows . . . most of the contributors on this thread hail from areas of the world that have been remarkably good at killing those sacred cows over the past several hundred years. The "west" has been nearly antithetical to the "this is the way it was, this is the way it is, this is the way it shall be" that still grasps much of the rest of the world.

And really, if I were a visitor to almost ANYWHERE in the Arab or Asian world 600 years ago and suggested that Europe and it's progeny would go on to dominate the world soon and for at least 500 years - I'd have been laughed or thrown out of any place I'd spoken. After all the Mongols' Venetian spies counseled them to ignore Europe due to it's lack of knowledge, technology and riches. Don't be so sure the game is up. China's gaming via intensive investment looks potentially very rickety and therefore de-stabilizing, at least internally. Singapore struggles with a huge affordability issue for it's own citizens, especially retirees.

Certainly there is a "great convergence" underway globally with western entities and their economies suffering and that's unlikely to be slowed, nevermind reversed, where a western minority had high wages and high productivity relative to the rest for centuries. Martin Wolf has written on this for some time.

The reaction of the 1% may well be sensible self-preservation. A new feudalism does not seem ridiculous given the global trends underway.

Capitalism has built-in instabilities. And it's always relied on a new space to expand into. Now, with the coming online of formerly great powers returning to an importance economically and politically they've not experienced in centuries . . . the new space is . . . severely constrained. We're all just sharing a CLEARLY limited space - Earth, and it's limited resources of clean air, water, and other commodities with a population soaring to 11 billion by centuries' end.

Given the convergence (of wages and productivity) that sacred cow, a man-made system, capitalism, seems very much overdue for a review at least.

Or as Edward Abbey, the father of the American environmental movement and an admittedly blighted soul stated - "capitalism preaches growth for the sake of growth and that is the mantra of the cancer cell."

not to be dull but its all a bit academic when put in the context of a finite world. which social systems work or dont work are fairly irrelevent if they are still based on growth and the overwhelming abuse of finite resources.

the economic crisis is a symptom of lots of things BUT underlying it all is the simple problem of too many people using too many resources which will, and are running, out. it might take 100's of years but we are inevitably on the bumpy road back to ruralised economies, probably via the odd scrap for oil.

And before anyone screams 'technology will save us' please try to come up with a technology that is 1 sustainable in terms of the energy it takes to create it and 2 has actually put us in a better situation (as regards resource use).

There was some good input to this thread a few years ago
 

As a little light relief from the eternal "which bike" discussions: 2+ years later and I wonder how the world is viewed in the here and now.

Greece – The Delphi Declaration | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2015/06...ting-drachmas/

Whatever develops, Greece will be an interesting place to visit.

The financial crisis looked rather planned than anything else to me; unprecedented wealth transfer between tax payer to individuals, even more consolidation of power between the big banks and the super rich raking in even more wealth and power meanwhile the bottom half gets austerity.

Regarding the banks, well, if more people understood how they worked and who they worked I'm sure people would start asking serious questions. Most people don't even know what money is. In our "democracies" the real issues like why monetary supply and creation is not under democratic control is not even on the agenda and never will be.

Currency, money, cash, $, £, Yen, even Euro
 

Regarding the nature of money:

"The Euro is founded on lies. It claims to promote European unity, but it is set up to create and maintain fragmentation and distrust. It claims to preserve sovereignty, but to ensure its own survival it requires its member states to relinquish control of their economies and, increasingly, their politics. It claims to bring prosperity, but its legacy is depression"

That is a telling extract from:
Coppola Comment: Mario Draghi and the Holy Grail
which gives an indication of the nature of a national currency.

At present, Greece is pushing the boundaries of proving the inate truth of the article.

This is a subject that will not be understood by a few word's on a motor bike posting board.


How I see it is. A single currency with in a set amount of country's is a good idea. What went wrong was, it grew too big to fast. There are a lot of people better than you or me, who are trying to get it to work. There should have been limit's laid down at the begin. Say how much each country can borrow. Let's put that at say 50% of GDP. I'm not going to go on about how I think it should be run, as every one has there own idea about that.


John933

Well that was illuminating. :innocent:

Regarding "better than you or me", I bow my knee to no one until they have proven themselves; you may live your life differently.

You may have missed the point that the Euro has been shown to not be a single currency - there lies but one crux of the current issues that the Greek people are living with on a daily basis.
This despite all the bluster, rhetoric and downright lies that your lords and masters (not mine!!) continue to propagate.

Whatever comes of the Greek referendum on Sunday next, things cannot be the same again; until the next time, when another generation has forgotten and is ready to make the same mistakes over again.

As for understanding: those who travel may wish to do so with their heads buried in the sand, but not I.

agree with all your comments, except it taking a generation to forget. People, and especially politicians, have a very short memory about this kind of thing!!

Ireland was a classic example of the problems of a single currency. It's economy was overheating, growing way too fast, but because the rest of europe wasn't they couldn't take the fiscal measures to control it. So it carried on growing until the crash, when it inevitably came, caused a landing way harder than it needed to be.

A different view of the future, from Hans Rosling
 

But where will those 11 billion reside?
See Hans Rosling for an answer.


Irrespective of the great god of "sustainability" the likely, natural solution has been expounded by Hans Rosling, for whom the glass is half full rather than half empty.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?clie...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Please "mind the gap" and "don't panic" http://www.gapminder.org/videos/hans...shing-machine/


Somewhat off topic from the title of this thread but posted here to put your minds at rest.

As it happens, a paper produced by some of the Bank of England staff runs to 14 pages to explain/excuse the malais of modern society:
http://www.financialreform.info/f_r_...y_creation.pdf

The elephant remains in the room, some 5 years after this shorter article was written:
DEBT-BONDAGE AND THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, by Alexander Baron

A result is announced
 

Maybe, just maybe, it is different this time because we have much more information available to us, such as:-
https://truthandsatire.wordpress.com...-by-the-media/
Such writings enable those who wish to understand that the Emperor has no cloths that, sure enough, the Emperor is a fraud.

We certainly live in interesting times if only because we have never been better informed.
Meanwhile the answer to the original question of over 3 years ago = "no change, the system remains in place".

or alternatively we have never been worse informed, because anyone can publish anything on the net whether it is with or without foundation. Some people will then tend to go out and find 'evidence' which supports their own point of view, without establishing how credible or reliable that evidence is.

The internet is full of ill thought out, poorly researched, inaccurate, missinterpreted or simply made up stuff peddled as fact.

You could say this is the era of missinformation

Misinformation, Disinformation, Lies, Focus/Special Interest Groups, Lobbyists
 

Absolutely!
It happens all the time, everywhere, but then it always did so before recent innovations in communications.
Even the HUBB has its' moments!
Some would say that the press barons used to control the agenda; nowadays?
Politicians are as prone to this as any other single interest group; and let's not forget "spin doctors" etc etc.
(The case of Greece viz a viz the EU/Troika is an interesting current example).

So, the "reading public" need to be more discerning in their assimilation of information, in their own research and in their thought processes.

Others will simply bury their heads in the proverbial sand (and maybe hope that it all goes away), as I mentioned earlier.

For myself, I continue to research the information that is to hand.
For instance, there was a publication of over 100 years ago in the USA which foresaw the current state of affairs concerning banking:-
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...-man-predicted
The book is freely available via that link, thanks to the Library of Congress, and it runs to nearly 500 pages - but I haven't started to read it, yet.

The UK (Rather, I should say GB) adopted a system of national banking (the Bank of England) around 1694; the USA followed suit with its' version of the Federal Reserve in 1913.
Those are two facts from which it is possible to conduct ones own further reading.

We live in very interesting, well informed, mis-informed times.

Talking of misinformation
 

......................... The last word in paragraph 6:-
http://99getsmart.com/greeces-true-r...um-begins-now/

I've been in places with currency problems. Try Newcastle on a Saturday night when you last used your bank card in Edinburgh and ended up with a stack of Clydesdale monopoly money. More seriously (but not really that bad) I dealt with the Ostmark/Deutschmark/Dollar/Rouble/Levis and Vodka debacle in the 90's.

People work out the day to day to day stuff and learn to live without banks. It's got to be a nightmare when your next 20 years was based on what was in there though.

Andy

60% actually.

"Here’s how it works. To join the Eurozone, nations must agree to keep their deficits to no more than 3% of GDP and total debt to no more than 60% of GDP. In a recession, that’s plain insane. By contrast, President Obama pulled the USA out of recession by increasing deficit spending to a staggering 9.8% of GDP, and he raised the nation’s debt to 101% from a pre-recession 62%. Republicans screamed, but it worked. The US has lower unemployment than any Eurozone nation."
Abstracted from;-
http://99getsmart.com/greeced-we-vot...s/]GREECE’D: We Voted ‘No’ to slavery, but ‘Yes’ to our chains

A week is a long time in politics
 

So, a week further down the road and the political nature of the Euro is increasingly evident in its' starkness, for anyone with even a single eye wide open.
https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2015/07...doing-nothing/


Incidentally, one of the very few nations that has never defaulted on debt is the one that uses the Bank of England.
Germany last defaulted, big time, in 1953. Pot calling the kettle black?
http://web.archive.org/web/201507060...d-7b5e7add6fff

Some more, rather random, ideas/facts:-

The norm throughout recorded history has been for nations to default when it all becomes "too much"; thereafter, the process starts again - much like the passing of the seasons or the inevitability of night following day.
The same applies to individual/corporate debtors, no matter where they lie within the hierarchical system of money.
Let's watch what happens in the case of Greece.

To quote some recent reading of mine, elsewhere:-
The economic history of the 20th century has been one of dealing with two hot world wars, one cold war and a major worldwide depression in between. Where we are going in the 21st century is less clear.

I've re-read, by skim reading in some cases, all of the earlier posts within this thread - so that goes back over the past 4 years or thereabouts.

Many, many contributors have pointed out the multitude of problems, issues etc but no one has managed to even start to produce any coherent solution(s).
Such is the way of mankind and his/her endeavours.

Meanwhile, here is another statement of the problem (it's not clear if it pre-dates or follows on from the great banking crash of the worldwide depression - most likely the former).
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take away from them the power to create money, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear, and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money.

~ Josiah Stamp – Bank of England Chairman, 1920s"

http://www.peakprosperity.com/blog/8...kers-own-world

Time to place your bets?
 

A brief article that gives some more background such as who is pulling the strings, perhaps.
http://www.acting-man.com/?p=38459
There are some handy graphics in there that show how the Eurozone nations stack up around the negotiating table.


But, there is still plenty of play taking place tonight and things could go in any direction: to Grexit, or to not Grexit?

But "austerity" is a political ideologue not a credible fiscal policy.

No doubt about that; see the figures in the post about how the USA has handled its' own economy.
Incidentally, ref the Eurozone requirements concerning GDP (the 60% figure):
The Debt to GDP ratio of the UK in 2010 was about 50%, now in 2015 it is 80% and still rising. So much for austerity over the past 5 years.
For Greece, their ratio is about 180% which pretty much makes it un-repayable, ever.

Austerity is the policy of the central powers of the EU and Greece is now being told to pay the price of membership; they are to be made an example to any other countries of the Eurozone who may feel like back-sliding from the new European order.
In the past couple of days these actions with regard to Greece have been described, by some commentators, as "a cruxifixion" and "waterboarding" of the nation.

Thinking citizens of the EU may wish to bear these events in mind for the next time that a referendum is run, or even considered to be a good idea.

ps
To obfuscate the issues, many UK politicians confuse the definitions of deficit and debt; who knows how often this is done deliberately, knowingly of the correct definitions or, simply, as further mis-information (there's that word, again) for their public to swallow.

pps
Anyone with a credit card should be able to understand how "deficit" and "debt" are differentiated.

Further, with the latest overnight decisions that have come from Brussels, it is clear that the German govn have not done what some of their best-regarded-economics experts have advocated to their own populations, as seen in this document:
CESifo Group Munich - Publication Details

In essence, the politicians of the Eurozone continue to kick the can further along the road, with the proviso that this time around the Greeks are going to pay more toward the price of their membership than they ever realised to be likely, or possible; Greek sacred cows are lined up to be sacrificed.

Whatever the ins and outs of economic theory I'm not sure I'd ever want to play poker with the Greek pm. He does seem to have bluffed his way to walking off with the jackpot.

According to some French thinkers/commentators ("Voltaire" no less), it is a conspiracy - in reference to the OP and associated poll.

An Anglo-Saxon/Nazi conspiracy to boot.

Behind the Greek Debt, by Thierry Meyssan

Who remembers the ERM?
 

On balance, i would say that he has lost the game of poker.
He has lost his game of bluff with the Troika, having thrown away an earlier hand that offered a better deal (prior to his referendum) only to now have the new, much more austire current deal; in that process, he may have lost the support of his own party back home - the next 24-36 hours will tell on that one.

So, overall, there can be little doubt that his poker skills are lacking and the jackpot is illusory (maybe the penny will drop for the Greek people, as below).

Likewise, the EU has also forfit an immense amount of trust (to quote Angela M); now it can be seen how the non-elected, non-accountable-to-anyone Eurozone, ECB, EU Commission etc etc are really operating; there is not one single Euro currency in practice and the currency that carries that name is working in a manner akin to the earlier European exchange rate mechanism (ERM).
It was the ERM that the UK had to drop out of when it all became too much for the UK economy (interest rates at 15% wasn't it??).
Greece has yet to arrive at a similar conclusion and appropriate action.

We sure have moved on down the road from the days of the EEC, established to provide Germany with a market for its' manufacturing and France with protection of their agricultural smallholdings.

It's all going to collapse, all across the world. We are just now seeing the what I think is the start of something that could very well put us into the dark ages. It's been building and building and soon the ivory towers will fall.

It's quite remarkable how what was unthinkable a year ago, two years ago or whenever is now not only happening but scarely considered to be unacceptable.

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2015/09...a-second-wave/

Understanding how much a trillion is.....
 

Want to know how much a trillion is? I found the following in the New York Times of September 28, 1986 "To the Editor" by Dorothy C. Morrell

"Why not think of it in terms of seconds, I asked myself? A trillion seconds would have to be years, probably many years ago. I made a wild guess. As it turned out, I wasn't close. I found that 1,000 seconds ago was equal to almost 17 minutes. It would take almost 12 days for a million seconds to elapse and 31.7 years for a billion seconds. Therefore, a trillion seconds would amount to no less than 31,709.8 years. "

OK, so one trillion seconds equals 31,709 + years

According to most archeologists and others claim that man as we know him has been around for only 50,000 years non withstanding the work of Michael Cremo etc. and others...

Now that we have a handle on how much a trillion is in terms of seconds anyway, -
here are my concerns...

ONE: There are more more than 200 trillion dollars in the derivatives market that have been created by "financial instruments, like credit default swaps and Mortgage Backed Securities etc etc etc

TWO: the fact that if the Federal Reserve, which is not federal at all, but an off shore private corporation were to raise interest rates by even .25% that's one quarter of one per cent the US economy would implode because credit would no longer be available and just to make payments on the US debt of almost 18 trillion dollars, the U S economy might begin to look like the economy of Greece.

THREE: the unemployment in the United States is closer to 20% than the 5% published by the government, the reason is simple, once an unemployed person has been allocated all of his unemployment pay the government no longer considers him as unemployed.

FOUR: "Quantitative Easing" has been pumping billions into the US and world economies for years now and to finance this the U S is purchasing its own treasury bonds. This and the unstoppable printing of dollars has created a fiat currency (no value other than people's confidence) in the United States. China and other countries are now selling U S treasury bonds that they purchased in the past and not buying more.

I could go on

xfiltrate Eat , Drink and Be Prepared

Eyes need to open and brains need to be engaged
 

There is a fairly clear, short statement in the link below about the problem which is indeed escalating rather than diminishing.
The Crisis in a Nutshell | Forum for Stable Currencies
Usury controlled by the banks combined with fractional reserve banking lie at the heart of the general economic crisis; these are financial scams designed to suck in whole nations to control from outside forces. Even China has been sucked in during recent years but that nation has started to awaken.

The link above just touches on the issues which always come back to the nature of money/finance, and there are plenty of apologists for the current version of capitalism who "would say that wouldn't they" i.e. they have vested interests in the status quo.

There are some economic "experts" who offer up credible alternatives; in general, they subscribe to Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) which basically says that currently nations just aren't what they are supposed to be but have given up their national sovereignty to the banks, particularly the privately owned, so-called national banks (as per the previous post, they are not "national" in the proper use of that adjective).

I mentioned in an earlier post that Britain started this nonsense back in 1694 or thereabouts; arguably the USA has taken up the idea, especially during the last century, and continues with the scam to this day.
(not that it is those two nations themselves which have sold this pup to the world, but certain individuals and organisations drawn there from).

None of it is rocket science but it is wrapped up in all manner of obfuscation.
For anyone who has read this far, read about MMT with an open mind that is receptive to ideas.