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Poll: Do you think this economic crisis has just been planned well in advance?
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Do you think this economic crisis has just been planned well in advance?

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  #16  
Old 25 Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy View Post
I'm a little bit sick of a society that is of no more innate worth than the corrupt and childish fuel that runs and motivates it. I've barely set foot back here and I want to leave again.

Oh, but I can't yet, as the bits of paper have taken a mind of their own, and the men in control of them have lost that control. While somehow they still get richer....? real life; stranger than science fiction.

I think that was my way of saying, 'yes, I fully agree with you Mr Estebangc!'

I'm off traveling for a long period, then returning to Spain to live on my mountain, herd goats and sit at my typewriter until the planet chokes on our filth and sends us the way of the dinosaurs.

Birdy

(Btw, it's good to be back people!)
I totally agree. Although, there seems to be no way out of it if you live in the Western World. You literally can not legally live outside the system. There is nowhere you can live, sleep and sustain yourself without breaking a law.

I've often looked into ways to escape and live "off the grid" but it seems practically impossible unless I want to be a lonely old hermit in the deep Yukon interior. Even then I would need visa's, cash, reasons, checking on etc etc.
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  #17  
Old 25 Oct 2011
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Quote:
totally agree. Although, there seems to be no way out of it if you live in the Western World. You literally can not legally live outside the system. There is nowhere you can live, sleep and sustain yourself without breaking a law.

I've often looked into ways to escape and live "off the grid" but it seems practically impossible unless I want to be a lonely old hermit in the deep Yukon interior. Even then I would need visa's, cash, reasons, checking on etc etc.
I was getting upset with the same problem. I hate the fact that our right to infinite choice in every avenue of our daily life has robbed us of the one important one; the choice not to choose.

I feel like we're foie gras geese, having the same fatty muck ladled down our throats, unable to spit it out and say 'NO, I DON'T WANT IT! Nothing more than vessels for what comes out of us (labour mainly in our human case, rather than livers.) And then after we've consumed, and given up that labour, we're sold it back in the goods we've just provided for the fat shovellers - to make them more money!

What a depressing cycle. Makes me want to go online and buy something shiny, eat some processed comfort food and ring up to vote on X-Factor. (Or not.)

At least they don't frog march geese into Tescos and make them buy back their artificially engorged organs.

I dreamed as a younger man, that I would escape in Africa or the Middle East, but as a white man, it is so difficult. Spain has turned into my best hope. The place I have been living most of last year, with an incredible Dutch woman, is as close as 'off the grid' as I've found, completely self sufficient, there's no heating bills or electricity to pay when you don't have either, no rent to pay on a house made of stones from the mountains around it, no money needed to buy the services you don't want or need. Just goats and mountains, manual labour, fresh air and hard work, and hoping you don't stab yourself in the neck with a chisel or eat poisonous berries miles from help.

Birdy
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  #18  
Old 25 Oct 2011
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Originally Posted by Birdy View Post
It sickens me that £74000 of intrinscially worthless paper give the owner of this car respect in our society. We seem to be progressing with no regard for where we are going, or slowing down to ask 'why?'

(Btw, it's good to be back people!)
The paradox is that maybe the owner of that car, whose dream is just to possess as many things like that to prove he's a successful guy... may be just fired tomorrow, picking up all his stuff in a cardboard box from his office (Merrill Lynch or Lehmann Bros), coming back home wandering how the f**k is he going to pay the huge mortgage he got to afford his massive penthouse... what was I thinking about when I thought bonus and salary would last forever? I may have just a salary, very big one, but just an employee, another idiot serving the system. He may be much closer to the vast majority than what he thinks... And they actually most are.

Or he may be a great guy, hard worker, who decided to follow that path. No resentment at all, he spends his money in what he likes, as any of us. If he does it because of social status... I pity him, it will never be enough then, just a constant suffering because of the Riva yacht he cannot afford. If he is a entrepreneur working long hours, giving young (and old people) a chance in his project, thumbs up, the society needs them and their initiative.

What I am hating here and now are those blood-suckers speculating with food, with raw materials, with mortgages, buying politicians, deciding the future candidates to govern nations, crushing all the SME network, willing to take the pound, the crown or any other currency out of the market with their attacks, no worrying at all about the consequences, the families loosing their jobs, houses, savings (and grandad's gold teeth again!) because of their actions.

The ones who seem to be ruling this world more clearly than ever, calculating in advance what's coming, how the welfare state cannot go any further, how in the future you will only aspire to the be bloody employee of the month in a stupid fast food restaurant, with no space for a family run one.

Those are the problem... although they seem to forget that, if going too far... the minority cannot put the majority under the yoke, no matter how many News of the World to manipulate them they may have.

PS: Time to sleep, I have to produce tomorrow some foie gras for the system...
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  #19  
Old 26 Oct 2011
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I believe the human body can survive equally well without both a Bentley AND a seven year old Africa Twin with a full tank of fuel and a carnet in the tank bag. Get rid of the jobs that come with the chance to buy the Bentley and no one can make the AT's. Average the worlds resources equally through the worlds population and we'll be lucky to have a bicycle. Your dangerous chisel in the off grid house is made from metal dug from a multi-billion dollar hole full off multi-billion dollar machinery which is built and operated by a lot of bicycle riders, a few AT owners and the odd Bentley driver. Be careful what you wish for.

Andy

PS Come the revolution when we all get any choice we like, I'm going to be a taster, but only when I'm not out riding
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  #20  
Old 26 Oct 2011
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Average the worlds resources equally through the worlds population and we'll be lucky to have a bicycle. Your dangerous chisel in the off grid house is made from metal dug from a multi-billion dollar hole
I happened to be born in the 20th c West, I didn't really have much of a choice whether I consumed or not. It doesn't mean I have to like it. But if we are going to average resources, I don't think asking for a few Iron Age tools is asking for too much! I would happily forgo just about everything we have to live a harmonious and self sufficient life off the land. I've not found anything that makes me happier. I liked the Zeitgeist films, but by the third one I thought their solution was ridiculous - we need less, not more.

Quote:
Those are the problem... although they seem to forget that, if going too far... the minority cannot put the majority under the yoke, no matter how many News of the World to manipulate them they may have.
That's my problem with the 74grand car owner. He, and 95 percent of this country are not puppet masters or controllers. They are the majority, indebting themselves, enslaving themselves, wasting precious resources. The powerful minority don't need to do much, they just offer shiny trinkets and we queue up to be yoked into the machine like cattle, or Indians accepting smallpox blankets.

Unfortunately, I wasn't born in a different world, or a different time, so I am now going to have to be a dreadful hypocrite, and go yoke myself to the machine so I can afford to live!
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  #21  
Old 26 Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainMan View Post
In short, planned - no, predictable - yes.

The starting point is the following quote:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing. "

We, the people, vote in the governments that allow this all to happen.

Bad governments make bad policies reacting to short term incentives.

The people (who are consumers) live beyond their means and push the government and their policies to their limit to allow them to do so.

Too much debt in government, too much debt in business, too much debt for individuals.

Normal economic shocks happen and an overly burdened government, business, or person will collapse under the weight.
+1 Mountain man. Summed it up to perfection.Nothing more to add.
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  #22  
Old 26 Oct 2011
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these threads fascinate me. People cry about how corrupt and how bloddy awful America is, but nobody ever lives someplace else? How many US expats do you know who have renounced their citizenship? Why is it that EVERYONE wants to come to the US?

Folks, living off the grid is very simple: Take a lesson from the Amish.
However, you can't have a new BMW GS and a Flat-scrreen to watch the game. No designer . No Sidi boots...yada, yada.

I'm obviously an American, and I love it here. This place has been good to me.
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  #23  
Old 26 Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
I believe the human body can survive equally well without both a Bentley AND a seven year old Africa Twin with a full tank of fuel and a carnet in the tank bag. Get rid of the jobs that come with the chance to buy the Bentley and no one can make the AT's. Average the worlds resources equally through the worlds population and we'll be lucky to have a bicycle. Your dangerous chisel in the off grid house is made from metal dug from a multi-billion dollar hole full off multi-billion dollar machinery which is built and operated by a lot of bicycle riders, a few AT owners and the odd Bentley driver. Be careful what you wish for.

Andy
Then I want your road bike in addition to my MTB!!!!
It's being said before, there is just one cake to share and we've been just lucky to be born in these countries and have the AT. It doesn't mean that you don't care about the guys not so fortunate that ride bicycles or just walk.

But the guy with the Bentley seems to want to seize over all the ATs and bicycles so that he may have a whole collection of Bentleys and in addition make us all pay a toll on our way walking to his mine... if he could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnail View Post
these threads fascinate me. People cry about how corrupt and how bloddy awful America is, but nobody ever lives someplace else? How many US expats do you know who have renounced their citizenship? Why is it that EVERYONE wants to come to the US?

Folks, living off the grid is very simple: Take a lesson from the Amish.
However, you can't have a new BMW GS and a Flat-scrreen to watch the game. No designer . No Sidi boots...yada, yada.

I'm obviously an American, and I love it here. This place has been good to me.
Who blamed "America" (not the USA, nor the whole continent, pls)? Whether I missed that part or misunderstood the suceptibility... Only saw "West" as a whole package (USA, EU, etc), not as California, Oregon and Washington.
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  #24  
Old 26 Oct 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnail View Post
these threads fascinate me. People cry about how corrupt and how bloddy awful America is, but nobody ever lives someplace else? How many US expats do you know who have renounced their citizenship? Why is it that EVERYONE wants to come to the US?

Folks, living off the grid is very simple: Take a lesson from the Amish.
However, you can't have a new BMW GS and a Flat-scrreen to watch the game. No designer . No Sidi boots...yada, yada.

I'm obviously an American, and I love it here. This place has been good to me.
Agree with estebangc's comment. Where does the "America(n)" comment come from? One person in post number 10 mentions it by saying they are travelling from Europe to there (maybe doing a m/c trip?), otherwise no mention. Definitely an odd comment.

My opinion on the topic: The people get the government they deserve. Being British I'm proud to say I didn't vote Thatcher (start of the Greed is Good Britain era) in 79 pp (too young) and not Blair (son of Thatcher) in 97 pp. So I can sleep with a clear conscience.

What have I done to stop the rot? Nothing. So I should really stop complaining about the situation. Hang on, I did once boycott an event where the (now disgraced) CEO of HBOS bank was the guest speaker. Probably too little too late.

cheers
C
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  #25  
Old 26 Oct 2011
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Chris, it was never my intent to piss anyone off. I get easily fired up when politics gets whipped out. There is another thread tittled "the world according to America" or some such that is so far left I couldn't read it with my right eye open.

It seems to me that a solution should be presented, not just a problem
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  #26  
Old 27 Oct 2011
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Originally Posted by estebangc View Post
But the guy with the Bentley seems to want to seize over all the ATs and bicycles so that he may have a whole collection of Bentleys and in addition make us all pay a toll on our way walking to his mine... if he could.



.
Of course he wants to, it's human nature. These guys have always been there and done that and become tribal chiefs, Kings, CEO's of banks, whatever. I've worked for plenty. It starts when they decide a 16 hour day is fine until they get to University and then until they get a job and then until their company is up and running and then until the recession is over and then until the house is finished and the boat built and then until.....Oh dear heart attack at 61. They waste resources along the way for sure. This urge to have a car with a TV in the back (they watch work stuff) and the urge to ruin a good walk by hitting a little white ball while talking work on their mobiles is indeed pointless but its what convinces them that not having a life is worth it. The mess though is only half the story, they deal with their fellow overpaid idiots by having meetings at four in the morning rather than telling the customer where to shove his project. It would be nice if we all played nicely and didn't need these fools but it ain't going to happen.

I was fortunate enough to travel in Eastern Europe before the Berlin wall came down. The fools working 70 hour weeks to advance a grade in the party or in the cardiac ward were just the same as our Vice-deputy-under-sub-president of pumping systems trying to become a Deputy-Vice-Sub-President for Fluid Transfer, they simply got there using a different set of code words. By having a reward system for them based on power as well as big cars and houses the majority trying to strike the right balance just got less. (Engineers the world over BTW are just the same, we want to do the job then go home and you better let us or you'll find yourself ankle deep in Glow-in-the-dark water regardless of what car you drive and the paperwork will show you signed it off ).

Andy
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  #27  
Old 27 Oct 2011
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Originally Posted by johnnail View Post
Chris, it was never my intent to piss anyone off. I get easily fired up when politics gets whipped out. There is another thread tittled "the world according to America" or some such that is so far left I couldn't read it with my right eye open.

It seems to me that a solution should be presented, not just a problem

IMO, nobody is p!ssed off by anyone else on his forum.

A solution to the problem: Repatriate all the w(b)ankers' money, line them and their crooked politician friends (after first stealing all their stolen money back from them) on the edge of a cliff and... (Fill in your own ending).

With ref to the World according to... map thread: If you were able to have both eyes open when you read the words written, you'd see clearly what was meant by the thread.

Off to ride a bike.
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  #28  
Old 27 Oct 2011
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Originally Posted by chris View Post
My opinion on the topic: The people get the government they deserve.
Couldn't agree more, I have always said governments are just a reflect of the population, we get what we deserve (quite often for any regime, not only democracies). However... I start to change that view, since those powerful guys seem to be narrowing my options more and more. It's like: what do you prefer for lunch, shit or excrements? That's all? Yeah, that's all (two adequate candidates chosen by others). Add manipulating the public opinion so I think I am actually deciding (a shit): is it still valid "the candidate supported by The Sun wins the elections" after the News of the World Scandal? Is there really a decision left to us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Threewheelbonnie View Post
Of course he wants to, it's human nature. These guys have always been there and done that and become tribal chiefs, Kings, CEO's of banks, whatever.
Very interesting your visit to the Eastern block before the fall. I would have loved to see it by myself... (I was 13 when the wall).

Anyway, I may be undeniably stupid in many fields, but I hope I didn't not come from planet Utopia in a space shuttle. Of course there are ambitious and greedy people (did I say that I wanted your bicycle?), as there are serial killers, nobody tried to deny that. The point I clumsily tried to raise was:

is the system being redesigned so that those bastards take (de facto) over all in here? Is it just because of that that the richer get muuuuch richer, the middle class dissappears in many countries (and gets progressively reduced in ours) and the poorers get much poorer and miserable?

Since there is no more counterbalance (call it Communists), is the capitalist race going just way too far and we live a fake democracy too much controlled by those guys? I can't see any leader who deserves that title, they all look to me more and more like a marionette. I see people loosing jobs and more "dancing with the stars" on TV to keep us busy. Was it called alienation?

If I am in a dictatorship and they rob all the richness and there is censorship, well, that's it, a dictatorship. But if I am (supposedly) in the most advanced democracies, WTF a democracy is that????
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  #29  
Old 28 Oct 2011
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Well, if you really want to know who runs the world, a group of Swiss researchers have worked it out -

Revealed – the capitalist network that runs the world - physics-math - 19 October 2011 - New Scientist

The link will probably only work for a few days so if you're into this sort of stuff you probably need to get over there quickly.
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  #30  
Old 28 Oct 2011
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Originally Posted by estebangc View Post
It's like: what do you prefer for lunch, shit or excrements?

My (very jaded) view of all politicians: Same shit, different arse. I distrust the moral fibre of all politicians.

I read somewhere that "Politics is like Hollywood for ugly people". (No anti-American sentiment intended. Please substitute other movie making areas of the world if this reference offends ). This is certainly true for the late Robin Cook or the slightly less late John Prescott, who even managed to find women to have affairs with.

It's lunchtiime and I'm here at a McD francise using their free wifi. I feel the need to go buy a Big Mac to eat, or I could just throw it straight down the bog, without letting it pass through my body first.
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