Lumping all electronics together is a bit silly IMHO. Electronic ignition has been here since the 1970's. It is far superior to points. You get the real benefit of not having to make daily adjustments to extend the life of a component that is destroying itself. FI is close to doubling the range/halving the fuel use of the carbed bikes that came just before. It is about settings as the carbed bikes earlier still were more efficient than the later ones, but still an advantage we can buy rather than make. If there is an advantage I can see the point in changing the tools I carry.

Then though there is stuff that doesn't do anything for me. Electric lights are superior to acetylene for sure, but why do I need a CAN module to refuse the start the engine because it's detected a blown lamp? The switch worked fine without. It would be annoying in Munich a trip killer in Mongolia. It is not for my benefit to avoid German fines (and blame the manufacturer if I'm a lawyer), it is a way for the bike manufacturer to sell me a €2 lamp with a 50c chip added for €50 plus fitting. Bad on a road bike, useless on an overland one, not even workable when the dealers don't open 24/7.

They are also trying to reduce the tool kit to the Microsoft level. A modern vehicle and OBD2 reader is easier to use than mucking about stripping off parts to find silly little bits of rubber. The manufacturers making it close to impossible to buy the tool is not acceptable though. If one manufacturer made all his bolts 1/2-inch Whitworth and put 15.6mm AF nuts on them and refused to sell you the spanners, we simply wouldn't buy. When the only way to talk to a BMW is a reverse engineered GS911 tool I find that equally unacceptable. If they would sell me a dashboard add on or service tool, or even something that called Berlin and told me what to do, they would be a lot closer.

Treating the market as though it's stupid will be the death of certain brands. You can only act like Google when the competitors are still university projects, not the case in the bike market.

Andy

I can't argue with any of that; but what of the other manufacturers?
Are they dragging their feet in the field of electronics for motorcycles or are they wiser than those Bavarians and staying clear of the newer technologies and ideas (EFI is a given)?

__________________
Dave

BMW have a problem the others don't. Their marketing is about technology and being German. They have to stay current and pay German wages and the crossover to the car side supports that. The car side is more like Microsoft, millions of drivers who will use their vehicle like their phone and are growing to expect a three figure bill and courtesy car for a blown bulb.

The Japanese big boys can wait and see how it goes, they sell on softer lines of just being there and no one knows or really cares if the bike was made in China or Brazil. They have the depth to bring in all the CAN toys for say a Goldwing or Burgman and use the basic electronics across their Africa market 125's all the way up to the Tenere sized stuff. If the car model makes more money they will change. If not changing brings GS owners to Tigers and Teneres they won't.

The real boutique manufacturers have to follow what their market wants and what the parts manufacturers can supply on cost. Brembo will be happy enough selling Moto Guzzi hydraulic brakes right up until the all the big boys have gone electric and the tooling needs replacing. The only driver will be legislation, hence you will see FI very similar to that on a Guzzi, on a Ural in the next two years. If they stuff up the software Ural owners will be buying new old stock and carb conversion kits.

Edit to add: Shouldn't forget the Chinese. Currently buying what the parts suppliers offer, but probably big enough to drive if they wanted to. I'm guessing the market will be happier with basic electronics from them for a while though.

The BMW servo brake is a good example. Worked in allowing the same hardware across a range, failed because the second hand value made ownership costs insane.

Andy

I'll just give my opinion(s) about the original post/idea...

I am (was actually) in the position to be able to compare as I did in the same year a trip on a DRZ400 and one on a 1200GS Adv.

Big difference in bike, big difference in the mind and a big difference overall in use and outcome.

I totally agree about NOT going on a big trip on an expensive new bike, unless I am sure that there would be "dealers" ie. spare parts available more or less around the countries I am planning on doing. This being said, I sold my 1200GSA and I am now on the road for 5 months with that money on 2 DRZ400E with my wife. The DRZ has a reputation of being reliable, well we found out that it's not as reliable as everyone says it is. Maybe we take them a bit too far but anyway, we had some problems (the piston coming out of the exhaust reads exactly the same as what happened to us last year...) they are really shit on comfort BUT I feel better on them traveling than I would on a big expensive bike.

Indeed, leaving a bike behind that costs you 20K or 2K is a huge difference. At that extend that you have way to much €$€$€$ on your mind all the time and forget to enjoy your trip and that the BEST things that in every trip happened to us, is when one of the bike broke down. (I am writing this btw while waiting as my bike broke down in Ukraine and finally we will continue our journey tomorrow) Also just the idea of "looking" rich on a big bike or adventurously poor on a smaller/cheaper one has is advantages... anywhere in the world!

Thing is, BMW is extremely good in marketing, we all have to admit this. And thing is, that it's human nature to "want" something, ie. a big adventure bike because you think you need it to o around the world...
Thing is, there are in the meantime a lot of people who did it on shit bikes, and had a lot more fun than anyone on a big GS will ever have going from hotel to motel on the road...

We try to do it as much as we can offroad and I won't go on a GS to where I'm heading now. Of course, my but won't hurt and I would be twice as fast, but I wouldn't have seen or experienced what we did now, being on a 400 going offroad or taking small shitty roads in remote places.

There's a market and opportunity for everyone in the world that is willing to go from A to B, that is willing to travel, that is willing to go on an adventure, ... We are all different and we all want something else. The guys on their 20K bikes just want to go from A to B (overloaded) and brag about that once they're back. For them that's adventure... and when the bike's braking down and he can't call for help and it won't ve fixed within the hour, his whole world goes upside down, as this is not what we expected nor wanted!

__________________
Find us on Facebook or have a look at our website on wanderingsouls.be.

Well, for us, when I started researching which bikes to get, back in 2005 (for a one year round South America in 2007/08), I had to solve the following problems:

Find a bike low enough for me (I’m a midget!)
Find a similar model acceptable for my tall husband (he is tall!)
Find an engine size big enough for him and small enough for me
Get the same model (made sense)
Engine size from 350 to 650….
Find bikes available in the UK (So no DR650 sadly!)

After lots of research and thinking we agreed on the F650GS for me (with low seat it was perfect) and F650GS Dakar for the husband.
We did the BMW off-road class (in those days it was not yet too extortionate…) and were impressed with the bikes.

The DR350 would have been ideal if not so tall. Most bikes were either too tall or too heavy or not available in the UK.

Did I regret my choice? Oh dear God yes. I broke down everywhere, and as it is BMW, it was a nightmare to sort out! This has been documented in these forums (or check my website for details).

But in another hand, my husband had absolutely no issues with his GS! So, for him, it was a brilliant choice. Sure, BMW customer services were appalling as many people stranded find out! Again, I won’t go into details as my list of complaints is so long it would make a massive post.

So, what I have I learned? First that small is beautiful.

For Europe/Tarmac/easy gravel, I will stick to my trusted Kawasaki Versys, but any bike would do.

For my trip next year to Mongolia, we want to have the freedom to go anywhere we fancy, so we plan to get a couple of YBR125 in London. Cheap and tough. And easy to fix. Off the beaten track, we will be happy to have those little light wee bikes. And at the end of our trip, no need to pay £££££ to bring them back. They can be donated to charity … that’s the plan anyway.

We rented two of those YBR125 for few weeks in Vietnam, few years ago, and we were impressed. It was so easy to get through what was virtually goat tracks! It would have been impossible in a bigger/heavier bike. At least for me!

Oh yes, and I will never get Alu boxes again, way too heavy! The killer for me was the weight! So we travel light now!

And when we return to South America, we will buy a couple of small 250s over there. Plenty of excellent choices in that part of the world and cut the expense of transport from Europe to SA. Bringing them is cheaper too.

But we learnt those lessons the hard way. Now we know what works for us, but it might not work for others.

__________________
Maria

www.franglais-riders.com

Haha - had to laugh.
I think that's typical of younger generation to be frank. I can pull engines apart and even work on electronics to some degree, my kids (and grandkids) would stare at it endlessly asking "why isn't it making a noise dad"?

Then again my first bike was built out of a box of bits in the late 70's, that's all I could afford so had to learn. These days, I can't be arsed and will buy new bike or newer bike I should say. On last trip I carried all tools and even the laptop and diagnostics software with me just in case. You cant carry everything, so DHL phone number and credit card would be last resort. As it turned out, worst thing to go wrong was a cheap Chinese battery which I should have replaced in UK before I left.

I'm thinking of the new Triumph explorer for my next trip but it is new and fly by wire and all that ... hmm might be pushing my luck a bit perhaps.

__________________
Steven
Perth to Peru 2014 | Perth to Perth 2012

[QUOTE=
.There is no right answer. No one makes that 90 mph, 90 mpg, 350 mile range, 9000 mile service interval bike that never breaks down or can be fixed with a Swiss Army knife if it does.
Andy[/QUOTE]

Some people might not like this, but the closest bike to this is a Harley Sportster 883 with a large tank from a big Harley. It gets 60mpg, can go 90mph, if you put synthetic oil in it, it can go 9k miles between changes, and that's all that service is since there are no valves to adjust, no chain and sprockets to replace, just bring an extra belt. Large tanks in pre scratched and dented condition are available on Ebay for the price of a pizza.

Before you all attack me for being a Harley guy, I ride a Wee-Strom.

I have been using an 25 year old CBR1000f. For all my trip's. But it were I go that make's sense. Not gravel track's. Tar Mack for me all the way. Always stay in the EU. What every happens there is a good chance that I'm going to get it fixed. In the six year's I have been doing this and round a dozen trip's under my belt. The Honda has never let me down. Service before I go. Then it's just petrol in the tank and check the bike one a week. I also have a bike trailer at home. So if push come's to shove. I can fly home and come back and collect it my self.

John933

__________________
To buy petrol in Europe. Pull up at station. Wait. Get out a 20 Euro note, then ask someone to fill up the bike. Give person money. Ride away. Simple.

I ride a Moto Guzzi California. Touch wood it has never broken down. But if it did I would have no use for a guy to turn up in a very flash, expensive van in white overalls, carrying a small case which costs probably more than my bike, and inside an even more expensive diagnostic tester.

But Like a lot of guys on here, I don't intend to ride across Africa. But I would also guess that most of the 1000s of large BMW riders I have seen all over Europe are not going to cross Africa. The big BMW GS bikes have become the 4x4 school run vehicles of the bike world.

I think Ewan and Charlie had a lot to do with it but people forget what problems they had with the bikes because of the size.

My other bike is a Honda 125 Innova. 100kph and 55kpl. We have even done 2 up camping trips with it without any problems. It is an ideal touring bike. The whole riding experience between a big and little bike is like chalk and cheese. You see far more on a small bike, it is easier to park, wild camping is easier, you can often go where a big bike cannot go and it is cheaper in all aspects.

Bike sales are down 80% in Denmark this year. Moped sales are rising a each year. It must say something.

I think we should all ride what we want but Big bikes are not always the best.

Steve

+1 on the YBR125 mentioned above. They punch far above their weight. Mine gets used for 2 up touring, commuting, and business, ferrying 2 or 3 people and bundles of goods around in some quite tough conditions.

Sent from my A898 Duo using Tapatalk 4 Beta

Not sure if it's the closest but I think it is very close. I nearly bought a Sportster in 2004. The salesman was a prat. You don't tell a bloke who rode an XT600E in through the snow about how you'll keep his new bike until the riding season starts in July and give out free petrol preservative! The technology and ride would have suited me. The Triumph salesman was drunk due to some launch event and made a deal on a Bonneville that probably got him the sack. This too only lacks a decent sized tank.

I was looking at Harleys again this morning. Does any tank fit any bike? Just move the fuel pump and bolt it on?

Andy

Aprilia Caponord, all Italian parts are ok, all other, well, are quiet ok.