Do you have the right?

[RoadTrekker]

Now I know this is going to p**s someone off but the question has to be asked especially with the recent conflicts going on.

I often read about bikers and travellers planning RTW trips through some very remote and war torn countries. You seem to read more about their worries for bike insurance and visa applications than about their own safety.
The concern I have is that if something should happen to them e.g. kidnapping, what is their exit strategy to get out of the s**t. Do they expect the army to come and rescue them thereby endangering the soldier’s lives as well and what about the stress and worry of their families and relatives as well.

So the question is `do you have the right to potentially put other lives at risk to rescue you so that you can have bragging rights down your pub and in some forums?

It might not just be your life at risk?

Thoughts….

[mark manley]

Having been to a few places my government would advise against I would say the real danger zones in countries that are in conflict are usually very small and localised and easily avoided if you listen to local advice. There is also the case when a country is so large, Sudan for instance before partition was the size of Western Europe, that you can pass through it without getting any closer than say France is to Portugal, a conflict in one of these places would not stop you going to the other.
For the question what would happen were I to be kidnapped I have no idea but wouldn't expect the SAS to come bursting through my prison door anytime soon and doubt anybody would risk their lives trying to rescue me, I wouldn't expect them to.
As to personal safety I think I am at more risk walking through the centre of any medium to large town in Britiain at 11 o'clock on a Saturday night than I have been on my travels, not wishing to make light of these events I think most travellers are more aware of their destinations and surroundings than you imagine.

[Walkabout]

Originally Posted by RoadTrekker

Now I know this is going to p**s someone off but the question has to be asked especially with the recent conflicts going on.

I often read about bikers and travellers planning RTW trips through some very remote and war torn countries. You seem to read more about their worries for bike insurance and visa applications than about their own safety.
The concern I have is that if something should happen to them e.g. kidnapping, what is their exit strategy to get out of the s**t. Do they expect the army to come and rescue them thereby endangering the soldier’s lives as well and what about the stress and worry of their families and relatives as well.

So the question is `do you have the right to potentially put other lives at risk to rescue you so that you can have bragging rights down your pub and in some forums?

It might not just be your life at risk?

Thoughts….

It is very likely that the tone of your question is correct; most people don't consider the issues involved and this is fair enough - for each of the occasional cases of travellers getting into serious trouble there must be 1000s who complete their travels successfully (after all, that is what the travel insurance industry is very good at assessing and accounting for the wide range of risks involved).

In contrast, national governments do have their own individual policies concerning their citizens who get into trouble overseas, whether it be kidnapping ransom demands etc etc
Just absorb some of the news coverage about such events (e.g. the recent one in Algeria for a gas production plant) and "read between the lines" - governments do not always make a lot of publicity of their policies.

[ta-rider]

Well there are two groups of people in the world:

The biggest group believes everything they hear without thinking about it, allows the government to cut there rights because of "terrorism" (even in Germany there was no terrorism at all), measures distances in the size of "socer fields" and invests its money in insurances. The biggest adventure in there live is to buy a coffee at Mc Donalds which comes with a warning: "Careful: Hot".

The second group uses there head to think about the reason why politics say something and give people in Africa etc. a chance before they say they are dangerous. This way they find out that sometimes people in Africa are more happy and friendly then we are in our modern money world...

Tobi

[TravellingStrom]

If I followed every 'arse covering' advice issued by my government, I would not have seen anything of the world. They have to be conservative, but as long as you are aware of conflicts and stay away from them, then you should be OK.

I have no exit strategy, but I am not travelling in any part of the world where there is open conflict.

Cheers
TS

[grizzly7]

Should everyone stay at home?

Climbing a mountain even in the UK could put others lives at risk if they have to rescue you. Is that different? :confused1:

[chris]

Same question at Do you have the right?

[motoreiter]

Originally Posted by grizzly7

Should everyone stay at home?

Climbing a mountain even in the UK could put others lives at risk if they have to rescue you. Is that different? :confused1:

I think that the OP's question is a good one and am surprised by the tone of some of the responses on this thread.

I think posters are focusing too much on whether or not they should listen to their govt's warnings about where not to go, rather than whether they "have the right" to go to places that are genuinely risky.

Whether or not someone "as the right" to go to such places, I think it is rather selfish to do so given the potential impact on family, rescuers, taxpayers, etc. And yes, it is a similar analysis as to whether people should venture out into the wild without adequate preparation and/or under particularly risky conditions.

ta-rider says that there are two groups of people in the world: those that believe everything they are told without thinking, and those that use their head. Actually, I think the groups are a bit different, as expressed in an ancient Roman saying: "Wisest are those who can give good counsel to others. Next are those who can accept the good counsel of others. Long last come the fools who cannot do either." It is the last group that usually ends up in trouble...

[ta-rider]

Hi,

Referig to the pub the tone was bad right from the begining

The question is how to define "risc". Is it a risc to smoke? Do people have the right to drink alcohol? Why should anyone have the right to drive a car at all?

Originally Posted by motoreiter

it is rather selfish to do so given the potential impact on family, rescuers, taxpayers, etc.

No i dont want any "taxpayer" to mess around in my live. I did not ask them to. The rules are the same and everyone can decide what to do with his livetime...

Tobi

[motoreiter]

Originally Posted by ta-rider

The question is how to define "risc". Is it a risc to smoke? Do people have the right to drink alcohol? Why should anyone have the right to drive a car at all?

OK, I propose a very simple rule for determining what is "risky": the "helicopter rule". If you're doing something that you can reasonably expect would require a helicopter--either a recue chopper or an armed military raid--to rescue you, what you're doing could be considered risky.

Originally Posted by ta-rider

No i dont want any "taxpayer" to mess around in my live. I did not ask them to. Its my live and i decide wich risc im willing to take not someone else and i give this right to think and decide to everyone else as well...

Newsflash: you don't get to decide what your taxes are spent on. If your country decides that taxpayers should pay to rescue you from some mountain or some terrorist den, then everyone else picks up the tab for your actions, and you don't get much say in it. Of course if you want to bear sole risk without burdening taxpayers if get stuck on a mountain somewhere, you can simply leave your cell phone/sat tracker at home and hide from the search helicopters, but somehow when push comes to shove I suspect that most people will be waving frantically at the helicopters...

[YGio]

I have lived in many war thorn countries through out my life. As some people have said, most of the time the problem are localized in very precise areas. Listening to the advise of the local often permit you to avoid most of the problem. Your attitude and body language will also play a part. I don't think that any of us are idiot walking straight to the "kidnappers".

Then, I think you can skip the SAS scenario. More often your "kidnapping" will be resolve by negotiation and it will take time...
If it comes to SAS, or Rescue Team, people who do this job know that there is the risk they might die doing it. No one forced them to do a risky job.

And then there is the question of selfishness.
Ironically, I think that the people here, who go around the world in motorcycle, have all accepted to live their life to the fullest. We are not eternal and what we love doing has high risk: Every time we go ride it might be the last time. There is more chance of you dying in an accident.
Now, the question would be if you died in an accident would you have been selfish toward your family/friends/taxpayer ( yes, they pay, the embassy that will surely have to work on your case if you end up in a coffin)?

In the end: "It is better by noble boldness to run the risk of being subject to half the evils we anticipate than to remain in cowardly listlessness for fear of what might happen." Herodotus

[Walkabout]

Originally Posted by RoadTrekker

So the question is `do you have the right to potentially put other lives at risk to rescue you so that you can have bragging rights down your pub and in some forums?

It might not just be your life at risk?

Thoughts….

The way the question is phrased is overly emotive with the reference to "bragging rights" mixed in with the right to endanger others.
Thereafter, it is a balance of risk and potential danger/threats for which there is no single, simple answer because we are all different and life and its circumstances are very complex and changeable.
No one consciously goes about an activity with the intention of endangering others, with some very obvious exceptions.
Likewise, those involved in all forms of rescue are devoted to that service and are prepared for the consequences (how about, for example, the "bullet catchers" who accompany the President of the USA?)

Originally Posted by grizzly7

Climbing a mountain even in the UK could put others lives at risk if they have to rescue you. Is that different? :confused1:

In some regard it is different in that there is a long, long history in the UK of volunteer rescue crews, both in mountain rescue and at sea with the RNLI.
Get into trouble on a mountain in, say, Switzerland and you will get a big bill at the end of the rescue process which should tend to concentrate minds; in other words, there are financial risks also.
Don't knock that risk please: I know people who are paying off big bills for repatriation half way around the world by air medic services simply because they did not have insurance for this when they got into trouble.

Originally Posted by ta-rider

No i dont want any "taxpayer" to mess around in my live. I did not ask them to. The rules are the same and everyone can decide what to do with his livetime...

Tobi

As per Motoreiter, it is not that simple because of your nationality.
"You may not be interested in politics, but politicians are interested in you" is one way of seeing this.
You could, for instance, change your nationality to one of a lot of places in the world where life is cheap and your new Government would not be interested in you or your welfare.

Originally Posted by YGio

If it comes to SAS, or Rescue Team, people who do this job know that there is the risk they might die doing it. No one forced them to do a risky job.

Precisely.
Such as the French military who recently lost lives in Somalia in an attempted hostage rescue - the hostage was also killed.
It got little media coverage because of Mali.

[BaldBaBoon]

For many years I have actually worked in these parts of the world and various other choice places that have since calmed down a fair bit.

I for one, do not push my luck.

If I am travelling ( not working ) I do make a conscious decision to avoid trouble spots and I keep up to date on any situations happening near where I am going to be.....and not all these problems are in far flung parts of the globe, some problems are getting nearer to home daily.

I am sure the world is full of nice, decent people who just want to get on with life etc etc...but it is also full of not so nice people...meeting the better of the two can often be a case of luck that another traveller might well not get.

I might be paranoid, but that has kept all my body parts attached for the last 40 years..so it can not be all bad.

[*Touring Ted*]

Every time you put your trousers on you take a risk.. Riding a bike instead of a car is another huge risk. Life is full of danger and you just get on with it.

You would say, "well I have to put my trousers on to leave the house".

Some would say it's safer not to so just stay in bed and hide under the duvet.

That's not an option for most though is it. It's a necessary risk. For many an overlander, the dangers of foreign lands is an educated risk and it's not an option for many to hide under their duvet.



Is it fair to put the police/army etc at risk by doing more dangerous things ??

No one joins the army thinking they might never get shot at. No one joins the police thinking they'll never be put into dangerous situations with criminals.

It's an educated risk they take too. They could of become paper shuffler or website designers instead if they wanted a safer life.

[chris]

Originally Posted by *Touring Ted*

Every time you put your trousers on you take a risk..

You mean getting something caught in your flies? That'd definitely give you bragging rights in the pub, although your voice might sound a bit different.