Learners To Lose Right To Ride Alone?
 

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Big Earth - TwoWheelAdventure

Learners could lose right to ride alone - | Motorcycle News | Bike News | Motorbike Videos | MCN

If you are at all concerned please lobby Transport Secretary Lord Andrew Adonis at

andrew.adonis@dft.gsi.gov.uk.

Thanks
Peace and Love.

Personally I've alway wondered why L-plated riders are allowed out without supervision. the simple answer is, if you are a safe rider and have the right skills, then you will be able to pass the test and go on to continue your learning.

Some of the comments on the More Crap than News pages suggesting the CBT is enough, clearly shows that these people don't understand the hazards, risks and skills neccassary to ride in the UK.

I'm not fully for this, perhaps allowing L-plated riders to be supervised (like car drivers) by a rider with some years experience would be beter ??

It's nice to see an increase in the restricted power range though. This kind of power is more than enough to get yourself into trouble :mchappy:

With such disparate rules spread over Europe on what you can and can't ride, I can't see this every becoming law.

Just an opinion - and as we all know, they vary.... :D

I posted on the CBT thread as well, but I've pondered a bit more with a coffee and this seems very weird. From what I've read (and it all seems to be the same article copied endlessly and only seems to be in the UK press) it seems to be that those with L-plates are somehow to be denied the right to ride alone.

Here in France and also it seems in Spain, Italy etc no-one needs L-Plates. In France there's two ways to ride without a bike test either a) ride a 50cc scooter/moped with something called a Brevet de Securité Routière (which is taught in school) or b) ride a 125cc on a standard full Category B car licence. Any other way needs a test of some kind.

So I'm wondering, if this is a Europe-wide thing, then it's only going to apply to countries where L-plates are used, which seems more than a little odd. Maybe it applies to the UK because of the seemingly unique way you can get on a 125cc without passing ANY test (bike or car) at all (apart from a CBT)?

Just had a look at the Motorcycle Industry Association webpage HERE, and there's nothing at all about this, which is odd given the reports say this has come from the MCIA.[/QUOTE]

@GasUp
I know myself and a few other mates who are not bothered about riding bigger bikes, or carrying passengers or riding on motorways. So whats the point in passing a test? Plus it goes along the same line as Green Laning; motorcyclists are easy targets. Theres nothing about stopping the 17 year old t**ts who come screething around corners in stolen corsas.

@Alex
Yeah that was pretty weird, I had a feeling it was just a rumour or maybe a law being passed in the dead of night. Anyways, sod it. The weathers crap so im off to Scotland :thumbup1:

L plates
 

interesting. when i was 16 tried my brothers Kawasaki (i think it was an AR) 50cc. At 17 went and bought a Yamaha RD 250 LC which would do about 105 mph. then proceeded to smash the bike and my body being a clever f***er taking a bend far to fast and way above my ability. stupid thing is i then got a Honda superdream Honda should have named it nightmare for the handling and did the same thing. my father pointed out it was not the bike but the bikers ability to know his limits and the bikes so he limited me to a yam dt 100 for 6 months then Kawasaki ke 175 then Suzuki gt 185, then to rd 250cc 400cc cb 550cc cbr 600cc gsxr 750cc and toped out with gsxr 1100. R1. now ride a ccm 650 xtz 750 and dr 250. so worked my way through the and believe i am a competent rider. if the 125 limit was i place then and graduating to bigger bike policy was in place i am sure i would not have had the accidents. but i agree you would not let anyone but L plates on a car and drive unsupervised. so i believe the correct way is to take a rider training course ex amount of hours or instructors to pass you to ride solo. i have been living in eastern Europe for the last 10 years and most counties have a mandatory hours of instruction then full bike test which comprises extensive theory and then police examiner to pass test. however here in Romania they have the highest bike fatality in Europe due to riders fault.
so does this prove it is just the individual.
but agree so of the best fun riding has been on small cc bikes.
mike.
remember a bike has one fundamental design problem, it will not stand up by itself.

I should be in spain now, on a scooter, bummer.
 

Hey Mike. Yeah we have a CBT course to complete to ride alone on 125cc capacity. It stands for Compulsory Basic Training, and a lot believe its not sufficient education to let riders out on the road.

Training is to blame when it is to blame, likewise the individual. My first crash was because I dint know how to ride a manual as I had learnt on an Automatic. There is a serious flaw there!

But I should have made the jusgment not to wave at the nice lady, consequently letting my clutch out.:oops2:

But...another but...killing off the solo L plater is not sufficient grounds to avoid more road fatalities, which is what were concerned about here. They could enforce us to wear decent gear; make jackets, gloves and boots law I dont mind, I wear them anyway, but a lot of scooter riders dont.

It is a shame that the first casualty of the "Motorcycle Vs Government" war is always a minority; L platers/Green Laners. Why dont we start with the nutters who take every corner with scant regard for safety on high CC sportsbikes???

Ironically I had a DVD arrive, I sent for it. "Great Roads and Great Rides 2". I have watched GRGR 1. Both DVDs talk about rider safety and such things. Focusing on sportbikers. The Highways Agency must think motorcycle=sportsbike.

Anyways, Peace and Love.

A bit off topic,
 

Tommy,
The Green Lane thing, it's not really the Government that is to blame, all they did was give in to an extraordinary amount of pressure from the Ramblers, and daft Councils and National Parks using the new rules to help save some cash. This is despite the clear evidence that (motorised) recreational use causes less overall damage than the boot of walkers, certainly here in the Lakes anyway (UK lakes that is).

The problem is that Motorcyclists are generally happy to share the road with anyone else, they don't have any axes to grind and subsiquently they get stiffed by narrow minded organisations such as the Ramblers.

Anyway the CBT, L-Plate thing. I think generally we agree on the problem (training) it's the solution we see differently. There is minority of people who ride very well on L-Plates, but a large chunk mainly on scooters who do not, in out area these are generally 16 & 17 yr olds with no gloves, texting while riding, helment on top of the head, track suits, no gloves - the list goes on. I don't think that making things harder to ride will deter many, but it will stop the idiots or at least give the Police the power to.

Easy to say when your licence is fine and dandy.
 

I dont see that The Green Laning issue is off topic. Looking at the bigger picture; its always motorcyclists that suffer. I was out walking with some mates, just before Christmas, on a Public Footpath and down came a horse at full speed. If we hadnt jumped over a fence one of us would have been seriously injured. Point being people who use Green Lanes need to realise that Motorcyclists are not always the ones causing trouble, I mean do you need a licence to ride a Horse? Is there any age restrictions? Can you switch it off if it all goes wrong?

Back to the subject raised and it seems there are a lot of p****d off bikers on other forums debating whether this rule is as serious as being made out. Alex seems to think not and I may be joining suit. But if it is true, then the 125cc motorcycle industry, which makes up half of all motorcycle sales, will crash and burn. The number of illegal riders will double. No solution to the problem: "how do me wake motorbikes safe?". Its dangerous, always will be.

And there are as many idiots on bigger bikes, texting, smoking and riding like nobs as there are scooterists.

I think it's just a ploy to make it so difficult and expensive to ride a bike in the UK that they hope we'll all just disappear (the long term goal). I think learning should depend on age and experience, e.g. if you're over 18 and hold a car licence then you should be able to ride alone on L plates because you have experience of a motorised vehicle. If you don't have a car licence then you should have to pass the theory first. Under 18 then you should take lessons like learning to drive a car.

As for green laning, even mountain bikers get flak for riding off road (and snowboarders get gyp from skiers) we share the road with horses so they must realise the countryside isn't reserved only for them!

ditto.
 

sounds like a good plan phatman. it was interesting to remeber a trip i took to california, the sierra nevada mountains, where i went skiing. i recall saying "bloody snowboarders" or something similar!

anyway it appears this may only be MCN hyping up their news. but still its worth keeping an eye on, and fighting if it is true.

im very revolutionous this month.

There will always be idiots on two wheels, 3 or 4. Very will little will change that until they introduce an IQ test and a social emapthy rating for any new drivers wanting a licence!!

In any case, such a new scheme is utter nonsense, IMO. Exactly how would they plan to implement it? They can't sit on the back as learners are not allowed, so would they need another rider behind them at all times, on another bike? What happens if they get separated by traffic lights? Is the novice suddenly breaking the law? Will the experienced rider be a safer biker if he/she is having to watch the every move of the learner in front? Will they have to buy intercoms? Or shout advice to the learner 50 yards ahead?

The holes in the logic are pretty endless!!

Riding a bike has made me a safer driver of cars. Of this I have no doubt. I have always thought, if you want to make a biker safer, then educate the other road-users.
A smart biker will already know that other road-user's inattention is a huge hazard and the least predictable, whilst no amount of training will make a stupid biker much safer...

I have often thought that anyone wanting to learn to drive a car should spend 6 months on a scooter. They would learn to see the road from a two wheeler's perspective, they would think more from a biker's point of view once behind a wheel, many may opt for bikes and so lessen the number of cars on the road, and they would acquire far more road sense, knowing that there was no metal cage to redeem stupid mistakes and careless driving. Would this ever happen? I think we know the answer to that....

This would seem to me to be yet another plan to make the government look proactive, whilst not really addressing any issues. It would cost a minimum, and inconvenience the smallest voting group of road users whilst getting a sanctamonious round of applause from the largest.

Yet another example of modern politics: no longer tackling problems just providing plausibles illusions of tackling problems....

What baffles me is raising the age for Direct Access to 24, when it's already well known that the mid life crisis biker and born again biker, typically around 40 years old account for a disproportionate number of serious accidents. They're not touching on the real issues here.

Scrap Direct Access as it is now and limit those who would have qualified to do it to a reasonable power level (SV650, ER6, Bandit, etc) for a year. 70bhp is more than enough for a new rider.

Also, CBT riders should have compulsory hi-viz vests, if only to encourage them to take the test to get rid of it. Police should also be given the power to revoke the CBT certificate of little s**ts riding recklessly or riding a vehicle in a dangerous condition without having to take it to court. Easy come, easy go.

LOOK ,the simple fact is they ''the government '' don,t give two *****about motorcycles in the uk because they don,t get any revenue from it ,
there not going to encourage two wheels , so the idea is make it so hard to pass your test , and expensive plus widen the goal posts every year for the next ten years so people lose interest and get a car instead , sitting in that traffic jam generating valuable revenue to keep this great nation , ha ha .
from economic meltdown.

plus its the freedom on the bike thats the one that pisses them off , cause they like you dumb down , down trodden , under the thumb , they,ve got you then .
o, the forty somethings ,'' like me'' when one of them becomes just another statistic they look at it as just one less biker on the road ,

All these new cars with low road tax eg ,small diesels / hybrids , do you see them doing it with new bikes , I THINK NOT .

The fact that its posted in MCN automatically makes me roll my eyes !!

It's the motorcycle equivalent of the Weekly World news !

Already happening mate. I work for a training school and the recession, combined with the negative press regarding the changes to the test already in place, have made this year nothing short of a financial disaster.

It's a statistic they're choosing to do nothing about, partly due to pressure from the MCIA, etc. The "40 somethings" bring a sustantial amount of revenue into the industry as a whole. What do you think will happen if you tell Mr. Solicitor/Stockbroker/Doctor/Dentist/etc, that they can't have that shiny new litre sportsbike that they've set their heart on? They'll take their money somewhere else and spend it on another expensive toy or "lifestyle accessory", which is why nothing is being done about it. Good for the industry, including our business who will happily take their money for training, but a liability for road safety.

im impressed
 

@warthog. your notion that this is is spot on. maybe the government should use this as a motto.

@craig sounds interesting, although the idiots that ride recklessly probably dont have CBT certificates. I disagree with the hi viz vest been made compulsory, but maybe decent jackets should be. also i have no interest in passing a motorcycle test in the near future, dont see the need for it. as previously stated i dnt mind the power, and aint to fussed about riding on motorways or carrying people on the back. when the time comes to do a long haul motorbike trip il see about it then.

one point, the CBT needs a lot of work! maybe make it a test instead of a course?

Look at advertising for instance ,
not so much lately because the poor car manufacturers are feeling the pinch , bless,em .
but they and the government was ripping everybodys pants down 10 years ago with high car & bike prices compared to the US and the rest of europe.
advertising what they want you to buy , never a bike in sight .

i think if the money that it cost to police the cat & fiddle on sundays and bank holidays with two dozen coppers a plane a helicopter etc etc
could probably set up a proper training school for learner motorcyclist and run it for the rest of the year .

CBT instructors can actually refuse to issue certificates and ours do so on a fairly regular basis, particularly for those where its obvious that they haven't even looked at the Highway Code. We always offer the option to come back and re-take the course at no charge. Unfortunately, time is money so the smaller concerns tend not to do this and just issue the certificate. And you're right, the CBT as a whole does need work.

My opinion regarding Hi-Viz is also to draw attention for the benefit of other road users. L-plates aren't enough. It would indicate that the rider in front of them has only completed a rudimentary training course and hopefully give them a wide berth. Wearing hi-vis isn't cool but thats the whole point. Yes, there are a few decent CBT riders out there but they are in the minority and even those riders need training before they are test standard.

initailly this statement p****d me off, but I have to admit its true...although your could remove "CBT Riders" with motorists.

Without a doubt. I'll bet the most new car drivers couldn't pass if they had to retake the test, one month after they passed. Doesn't help that many car drivers seem to be completely blind to the presence of a bike and thats not just CBT'ers.

Well although we have many problems that are, some could say, un-solvable depending which point of view you possess, this cant be the worse country for the 'poor' system provided for bikers.

This being a travelers website; anybody seen anything truly crazy out there?
Something like " all I had to do to pass my motorbike test was spell 'Steve McQueen' "

See I'm kind of sympathetic, but...
 

I'm wondering why bikers think they do have the right to ride with the minimum of training, and yet will all acknowledge the fact that car drivers should pass a test.

People have said the CBT should be more comprehensive, with more of a test element, well then isn't that just a motorcycle test by another name?

As for people saying about it being crazy to have to have someone with you, here's how it works in France. First off you don't go out and buy your bike first, you go to the training school first. You book a course of 40 hours, and you fix the times you'll be doing those hours, maybe 2/3 times a week. You ride the school's OWN bikes, usually de-tuned 600's with LOADS of added crash bars all over. You can borrow ALL the gear if you don't have any or you can wear your own, and they'll fit an intercom in.

Come the lesson and the first thing you'll do is some bike familiarisation OFF the road usually in a car park of a Sunday morning. You'll do a bit of bike control, some riding around cones, you'll ride with a pillion, and you'll do the odd move from one side of your bike to the other supporting it with your hands only thing. Once your instructor's happy you'll progress to road riding.

When out on the road you'll be in a small group all in HI-VIS with your instructor behind in a CAR. He's got all the coms equipment and he can talk to one or all of you. You can reply, it's voice activated. Traffic lights? Roundabouts? Junctions? You ride carefully, you watch your mirrors, you speak to the instructor and they speak to you. If you get split up you just pull over, it's pretty bl**dy obvious you're under instruction, you've got a big HI-VIS on which says so, so if the cops see you pulled over at the road-side waiting, they'll leave you alone because they know you're under instruction.

You'll then find yourself back in car parks/airfields/etc doing more off-road work manoeuvring round cones, performing avoidance manoeuvres, riding with a pillion etc throughout the course.

On top of all of this you'll also have classroom based theory lessons and unless you've passed another vehicle test within the last five years, you'll have to do a thoery test too.

Once you've completed your hours and IF AND ONLY IF your instructor is satisfied he will sign you off. There is no TEST as such as your instructor is fully-qualified to assess you and is recognised by the State as being so. And of course he's far better able to assess you as he's seen you ride for hours and hours. Now you're ready to get your licence from the issuing authorities and go out and buy your bike.

This means that now in France every motorBIKE rider has taken a course. If you want to ride a 125cc, you'll need to have passed either car training and held your licence for 2 years, if not you'll have to do 6 hours of bike training, or proper bike training as above.

Only the 50cc moped-ists are immune and even they have had to do their Brevet de Securité Routière usually while at school aged 13 and stretched over an entire year!! to prepare them for turning 14 and a life on the road.

Of course the great thing about this is, either you've ridden something low powered since you were 14 and so learnt not to be a total TW*T or you've got the opportunity to try before you buy and invest in training, BEFORE you can invest in a bike. Plenty of rider training schools will let you pay by the hour so if you find you HATE it you've only paid for what you've done, and you've had a chance to ride a nice shiny BMW GS650 in the process.

Now people on here are saying it'll kill the whole industry, no-one will ride anymore, the tests will put people off, blah-blah-blah. France from a very lax system to these very draconian measures in one jump. BUT take a look at the number of bikes sold in France and the number of riders over here AND it's FAR higher than the UK.

As usual France gets it right.

The UK tests are a joke, you base fifty years of operating various vehicles on a few minutes with a bloke whose never seen you before in his life. Allow me to demonstrate:

Car test 1: Failed; was told to pull over in a bus stop and didn't tell the examiner to **** off.

Car test 2: Failed; got the ABS to cycle on a down hill, 40 mph ice covered emergency stop. Apparently you are supposed to just stop and forget the emergency bit. The examiner said "what if the ABS failed" to which my reply "the red light comes on" was too late to change the result.

Car test 3: Passed, but what can go wrong when they take you for a nice little ramble on some country back roads.

Bike test; Passed despite the examiner getting lost and taking himself off on the motorway for a junction and back after I lost him at traffic lights and he took a marked left turn instead of going straight on. Total actual time on test riding was under 5 minutes!

Truck test 1; Failed. Was taken through central York at 9 am and couldn't get a 16 tonner across a box junction the cars were ignoring and queueing across. Push and you fail, don't push and you fail.

Truck test 2: Passed in 10 minutes short of the full time, but it was the last test on a Friday!

UK gov will never sack the power crazed examiners who run the test lottery and replace them with instructors who have a genuine interest in passing only people who genuinely and repeatedly up to standard. The civil service simply won't allow them to trust anyone even if they send examiners round like they do school inspectors. The governments aims are to keep the test fees coming in and the civil service off their backs. There is nothing road safety related about any of this.

Andy

Well that's exactly how the CBT should work, except there is an issue with how the CBT is set up in that schools have to advertise how much they charge for the CBT and that is all they can charge. So let's say 4 people come to do the CBT, 3 of them are good enough to pass 1st time but one isn't and needs extra training, the school can't charge them for that extra time. The longest I personally have had to work with someone to get them to a competent enough level to pass the CBT is 4 days! So for the school that I was working for at the time that was 3 days worth of paying customers that they had lost (£90 per course and as most people pass in a day that it £270 of lost revenue). I was fortunate enough that the school I was working for was more concerned with the people being able to ride safely than in turning people around as quick as possible, but I know of at least two training schools that would have given that person the CBT certificate after half a day regardless.

The current CBT system is flawed in my opinion, and without a doubt there are some riders out on the road with CBT certificates who simply are not capable enough to be riding on their own. For that reason I do think a revamp is required, although not to the extreme that the current proposals suggest.

Now although I am completely against scrapping L platers ability to ride alone, yet I do think getting them (us) to wear the correct gear and practise being hi viz,

I do agree with Steve when he says I should not have passed my CBT course in one day. It was only by going round Ikea car park with a mate who is safe on a bike several times that I really got use to how to control a scooter (started on a vespa). Really I should have been the one to say "I need more training" but the cost was very off putting. Although when my friend took his CBT he saw a guy kicked out within 10 minutes for not wanting to wear protective gloves.

Bike sales are not just down to this. Biking is far more integrated into French culture than it is in the UK. Sure the British ride bikes in large numbers, but this is increasingly a hobby type pursuit.

In France however, people have had bikes in their blood, precisely because their first sense of freedom and independance on the road was a rusty old Mobylette, or a funky Italjet 50 that they cut their teeth on, until they turned 17/18 ( i forget the age) and can get 4 wheels toget about.

This also means that you get the mentality amongst car drivers to register and accommodate bikers, because most have been there in the youth. You don't see gridlocked cars nudging over to let the bike through gap on the North Circular the way you do on the Periph'

So Draconian laws or not, the biking industry in France is more resilient to change, IMO.

I know of a training school whose way round this is to tell the customer that they are a liability and shouldn't put in for the CBT again! They don't tell the customer they can come back so they can get as many paying customers through as possible.

The French system makes sense, but will never happen here. 40 hours continuous assessment is pretty intense compared to most training schools in the UK saying they can get most people through with just 10 hours tuition. You've then got to ask, are riders in the UK actually being taught to ride or just being taught to pass the test?

Don't you have to train them to pass the test? No one in their right mind would do a U-turn as done on the test, or give hand signals, or do half a dozen left-over ideas from the 1920's test. Unless the test becomes a lot more sensible you have to give even the good students the expected answers to some of the more crazy aspects.

Once you go down that route I imagine it's hard not to train to the test.

Andy

That won't happen. Look at the new (so-called) hazard avoidance test for example. Yes, we've all seen the ad on the TV where the car driver pulls out in front of the bike but what they've done with the test bears no realistic resemblance to that particular situation. Got to question the riding experience of the people who dream these ideas up.

That's what I'm getting at. You've got typically 10 hours of training that is specific to getting through the test, not real world riding. To my mind, what Alex described for the French system makes ours look ridiculous.

[quote=craig76;251373] Got to question the riding experience of the people who dream these ideas up.
/quote]

That's the problem if other branches of government are anything to go by. They'll form a comittee. One guy will know about bikes. The others won't give a stuff about anything except their own little world of finance or health and safety or working directives or whatever. The guy who says the result is *******s doesn't get on another comittee, you have to "respect" what the other clowns say even if it's just noise.

I used to test brake systems on trucks. No where in the EU does anyone measure the actual stopping distance for the simple reason the comittee's got bogged down, lost the plot and came up with a nice complex decel formula they finally all agreed to. The US regs read like they were written by one guy who knew his subject. They measure stopping distance.

Andy

Cbt
 

I was one of these folk that took 4 days to do the CBT I could have passed it after 2 days but I was not happy about my skills and instead of moving onto the bigger bikes I stayed on the 125 to work on the riding and left the africa twin in the garage.
In the 6 months after that I drove all winter which in the north of scotland is some pretty unpleasant weather, most of it in low light and the dark and luckily at low traffic times on main route north of aberdeen.
I had 2 accidents during this time one my fault[misjudges corner hit cow slurry at side of road] the other caused by a lorry running me off the road by pulling up my side to overtake and pulling in while I was still up the side of him. The first resulted in a huge bruise along my ankle and a very sore butt which would ahve been alot worse if I hadnt been wearing mx boots and full gear. The second sore nads from sliding up onto the tank but if it wasnt for the nice long driveway and soft verge I would have been under the wheels of the lorry.
I gave up on the idea of bikes[2wheels want a sidecar outfit] because its simply so dangerous, not the speed, not the chance of sliding but simply because despite wearing high viz gear or being in broad daylight car drivers either treat you like crap or dont even look for you I have had so many near misses with idiots pulling out in front of me it is unreal even on straight roads with no excuse for not seeing me my bike does 50mph max its like they look right through you! I am not talking about filtering but riding down the middle of the road.

The current CBt is ideal for those that already have riding experience as then it can concentrate on riding in traffic ,hazard awareness, road handling ect and not changing gears riding smoothly and knowing how to handle the bike. To let someone who has never set foot on a bike before ride on the road after 8 hours instruction is nuts.

I will say this though there has been a large number of fatal bike accidents in my area since the start of this year, not one of them was a learner or inexperienced biker many had been riding a long time, 9 out of 10 have involved cars most have involved cars pulling out.

there has been twice as many people killed by learner drivers in cars, nearly all of them involving speed or utter stupidity

know how you feel
 

as you pointed out pictise more learner bikers die then leanrer car drivers, probably more to do with the fact bikes dont have metal shells more then riding stupidly.

its a shame you were put off bikes but is does require having to get through your first few months, maybe even years, until you can see the hazards coming. i ride around leeds city centre a lot and at first i was shaken to the bone when i got home, but you find your groove and settle down.

theres no point a CBT being there for people with bike experience, cause its there for learners. as preiviously stated it needs major work though.

where bouts in scotland are ya from?

Tommy, mate, he said the opposite.

Cars are a problem too. Had to "have words" with a yoof driving his Citroen C1 beastie like a t*** last night.

Dunno if its just me getting old or whether 17 year olds are getting more immature but I think its time that the driving age went up to 18, or even keep it at 17 but must be supervised for a year like learners. Maybe after a year, the novelty of being let loose on the road will start to wear off.

You can do your test on a 125cc. Just means you're restricted to 33bhp for a couple of years. At least then you'll get some decent tuition in and the bigger bikes have more "road presence". Having said that, I know people who have been knocked off bright white, ex-police Pan-Europeans, while wearing white lids and hi-vis H-belts so I'd agree that you've got to start looking at the (lack of) competence of car drivers.

D'oh!
 

Thanks Alex didn't read the post properly. I just naturally presumed the sats would be in a car drivers favour!

I do apologise pictish. although if were talking UK stats here, thats a little bit to say learner drivers have to book lessons and sit with instructors. or have an expreienced driver present. do you mean people who have just passed their test?

sorry for the confusion.

Totally agree. And while they are at it combine the theory tests, so if you do if for a 50 you don't have to do it again for your car test. The more worthwhile it is for 16 year old's to get a 50, the more they'll look out for bikes once they've got the boom box Corsa, C1, daddies mondeo etc.

Won't happen of course as well as the outcry from all the little darlings who are a day too young, HM forces would loose a recruiting point or gain a liability issue and the test centres would be short of business for 12 months.

Andy

Absolutely but I'd add that the theory test should also be a prerequisite for the CBT. That's going to put some off, possibly due to cost, but like Pictish said, raw novice to on the road in a day is madness.

soz meant people who have just passed car test compared to those let loose after cbt, you can get "P" signs up here is you have just passed your car test to warn other drivers.
Those metal shells really dont help them too much when they go off a corner or hit another car at 60+mph especially when theres drystone walls and trees incolved.

Im from just south of peterhead little village called crudenbay.

It is putting people with very little experience behind very powerful machines that kills so many.

The seperate written test is a joke why is it taken seperate for a car and bike everything in it is nearly the same apart from the mechanical based questions.The hazard spotting exercise is stupid as well as being on a road riding/driving down a street is not the same as sitting in front of a computer with headphones on in a quiet room where your not trying to control a vehicle at the same time. A full on simulator would at least give some sort of idea, you might as well go to the arcades and play one of those driving or biking games for realism. In towns everything is a hazard, parked cars, lemming grannies, kids ,dogs, other road users, giant pot holes, push bikes and alot you dont see until the last minute.


The Uk does have tougher driving test than some countries, but others like finland go that one step further and teach alot more about vehicle control and have a longer learning period before you get a full license I think they also start earlier. The advanced driving courses you can get over here for insurance reductions should be made compulsory.

Regarding wearing proper gear unless it is made law[ a seatbelt is so why isnt proper riding gear] then people will not wear it, the amount of times I see guys on big sports bikes doing silly speeds with trainers, jeans tracksuits and maybe just their lid and a jacket shows this. I even got laughed at when I got off my 125 next to some guys on their sports bikes not one of them had a full set of gear on, while i was wearing full gear. Besides once I got in the club the high viz vest just looked retro raver.

The only way the roads will become safer for everyone is if driving like a complete tosser becomes as unacceptable as drink driving has become. The uk has the same issues with those that have just passed their test as those that have just started drinking its the none to everything syndrome, If kids started getting lessons in school 2 years before sitting their tests then the urge to drive like a lunatic may not be there and they will have far better skills making them safer drivers.

sorry to be pedantic pictish, i think your ideas are spot on. there are some ideas raised that should be considered for real"

getting new riders/drivers starting to learn early, maybe in school if they can afford. it would make better use of their time rather than religious studies and general studies.

braking down the testing process. is it finland where they spend close to a decade driving off road and on road before they have to pass a test? sounds good. i would relish professional motorcycle tuition if it covered every aspect of riding then just council estates!