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-   -   Learners To Lose Right To Ride Alone? (http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/the-hubb-pub/learners-lose-right-ride-alone-44228)

tommysmithfromleeds 22 Jul 2009 23:32

Learners To Lose Right To Ride Alone?
 
Found these articles on the web:

Big Earth - TwoWheelAdventure

Learners could lose right to ride alone - | Motorcycle News | Bike News | Motorbike Videos | MCN

If you are at all concerned please lobby Transport Secretary Lord Andrew Adonis at

andrew.adonis@dft.gsi.gov.uk.

Thanks
Peace and Love.

GasUp 23 Jul 2009 08:55

Personally I've alway wondered why L-plated riders are allowed out without supervision. the simple answer is, if you are a safe rider and have the right skills, then you will be able to pass the test and go on to continue your learning.

Some of the comments on the More Crap than News pages suggesting the CBT is enough, clearly shows that these people don't understand the hazards, risks and skills neccassary to ride in the UK.

I'm not fully for this, perhaps allowing L-plated riders to be supervised (like car drivers) by a rider with some years experience would be beter ??

It's nice to see an increase in the restricted power range though. This kind of power is more than enough to get yourself into trouble :mchappy:

With such disparate rules spread over Europe on what you can and can't ride, I can't see this every becoming law.

Just an opinion - and as we all know, they vary.... :D

Alexlebrit 23 Jul 2009 09:47

I posted on the CBT thread as well, but I've pondered a bit more with a coffee and this seems very weird. From what I've read (and it all seems to be the same article copied endlessly and only seems to be in the UK press) it seems to be that those with L-plates are somehow to be denied the right to ride alone.

Here in France and also it seems in Spain, Italy etc no-one needs L-Plates. In France there's two ways to ride without a bike test either a) ride a 50cc scooter/moped with something called a Brevet de Securité Routière (which is taught in school) or b) ride a 125cc on a standard full Category B car licence. Any other way needs a test of some kind.

So I'm wondering, if this is a Europe-wide thing, then it's only going to apply to countries where L-plates are used, which seems more than a little odd. Maybe it applies to the UK because of the seemingly unique way you can get on a 125cc without passing ANY test (bike or car) at all (apart from a CBT)?

Just had a look at the Motorcycle Industry Association webpage HERE, and there's nothing at all about this, which is odd given the reports say this has come from the MCIA.[/QUOTE]

tommysmithfromleeds 23 Jul 2009 11:57

@GasUp
I know myself and a few other mates who are not bothered about riding bigger bikes, or carrying passengers or riding on motorways. So whats the point in passing a test? Plus it goes along the same line as Green Laning; motorcyclists are easy targets. Theres nothing about stopping the 17 year old t**ts who come screething around corners in stolen corsas.

@Alex
Yeah that was pretty weird, I had a feeling it was just a rumour or maybe a law being passed in the dead of night. Anyways, sod it. The weathers crap so im off to Scotland :thumbup1:

mikeccm 23 Jul 2009 22:54

L plates
 
interesting. when i was 16 tried my brothers Kawasaki (i think it was an AR) 50cc. At 17 went and bought a Yamaha RD 250 LC which would do about 105 mph. then proceeded to smash the bike and my body being a clever f***er taking a bend far to fast and way above my ability. stupid thing is i then got a Honda superdream Honda should have named it nightmare for the handling and did the same thing. my father pointed out it was not the bike but the bikers ability to know his limits and the bikes so he limited me to a yam dt 100 for 6 months then Kawasaki ke 175 then Suzuki gt 185, then to rd 250cc 400cc cb 550cc cbr 600cc gsxr 750cc and toped out with gsxr 1100. R1. now ride a ccm 650 xtz 750 and dr 250. so worked my way through the and believe i am a competent rider. if the 125 limit was i place then and graduating to bigger bike policy was in place i am sure i would not have had the accidents. but i agree you would not let anyone but L plates on a car and drive unsupervised. so i believe the correct way is to take a rider training course ex amount of hours or instructors to pass you to ride solo. i have been living in eastern Europe for the last 10 years and most counties have a mandatory hours of instruction then full bike test which comprises extensive theory and then police examiner to pass test. however here in Romania they have the highest bike fatality in Europe due to riders fault.
so does this prove it is just the individual.
but agree so of the best fun riding has been on small cc bikes.
mike.
remember a bike has one fundamental design problem, it will not stand up by itself.

tommysmithfromleeds 23 Jul 2009 23:09

I should be in spain now, on a scooter, bummer.
 
Hey Mike. Yeah we have a CBT course to complete to ride alone on 125cc capacity. It stands for Compulsory Basic Training, and a lot believe its not sufficient education to let riders out on the road.

Training is to blame when it is to blame, likewise the individual. My first crash was because I dint know how to ride a manual as I had learnt on an Automatic. There is a serious flaw there!

But I should have made the jusgment not to wave at the nice lady, consequently letting my clutch out.:oops2:

But...another but...killing off the solo L plater is not sufficient grounds to avoid more road fatalities, which is what were concerned about here. They could enforce us to wear decent gear; make jackets, gloves and boots law I dont mind, I wear them anyway, but a lot of scooter riders dont.

It is a shame that the first casualty of the "Motorcycle Vs Government" war is always a minority; L platers/Green Laners. Why dont we start with the nutters who take every corner with scant regard for safety on high CC sportsbikes???

Ironically I had a DVD arrive, I sent for it. "Great Roads and Great Rides 2". I have watched GRGR 1. Both DVDs talk about rider safety and such things. Focusing on sportbikers. The Highways Agency must think motorcycle=sportsbike.

Anyways, Peace and Love.

GasUp 24 Jul 2009 11:43

A bit off topic,
 
Tommy,
The Green Lane thing, it's not really the Government that is to blame, all they did was give in to an extraordinary amount of pressure from the Ramblers, and daft Councils and National Parks using the new rules to help save some cash. This is despite the clear evidence that (motorised) recreational use causes less overall damage than the boot of walkers, certainly here in the Lakes anyway (UK lakes that is).

The problem is that Motorcyclists are generally happy to share the road with anyone else, they don't have any axes to grind and subsiquently they get stiffed by narrow minded organisations such as the Ramblers.

Anyway the CBT, L-Plate thing. I think generally we agree on the problem (training) it's the solution we see differently. There is minority of people who ride very well on L-Plates, but a large chunk mainly on scooters who do not, in out area these are generally 16 & 17 yr olds with no gloves, texting while riding, helment on top of the head, track suits, no gloves - the list goes on. I don't think that making things harder to ride will deter many, but it will stop the idiots or at least give the Police the power to.

tommysmithfromleeds 24 Jul 2009 12:21

Easy to say when your licence is fine and dandy.
 
I dont see that The Green Laning issue is off topic. Looking at the bigger picture; its always motorcyclists that suffer. I was out walking with some mates, just before Christmas, on a Public Footpath and down came a horse at full speed. If we hadnt jumped over a fence one of us would have been seriously injured. Point being people who use Green Lanes need to realise that Motorcyclists are not always the ones causing trouble, I mean do you need a licence to ride a Horse? Is there any age restrictions? Can you switch it off if it all goes wrong?

Back to the subject raised and it seems there are a lot of p****d off bikers on other forums debating whether this rule is as serious as being made out. Alex seems to think not and I may be joining suit. But if it is true, then the 125cc motorcycle industry, which makes up half of all motorcycle sales, will crash and burn. The number of illegal riders will double. No solution to the problem: "how do me wake motorbikes safe?". Its dangerous, always will be.

And there are as many idiots on bigger bikes, texting, smoking and riding like nobs as there are scooterists.

Phatman 24 Jul 2009 17:57

I think it's just a ploy to make it so difficult and expensive to ride a bike in the UK that they hope we'll all just disappear (the long term goal). I think learning should depend on age and experience, e.g. if you're over 18 and hold a car licence then you should be able to ride alone on L plates because you have experience of a motorised vehicle. If you don't have a car licence then you should have to pass the theory first. Under 18 then you should take lessons like learning to drive a car.

As for green laning, even mountain bikers get flak for riding off road (and snowboarders get gyp from skiers) we share the road with horses so they must realise the countryside isn't reserved only for them!

tommysmithfromleeds 24 Jul 2009 23:13

ditto.
 
sounds like a good plan phatman. it was interesting to remeber a trip i took to california, the sierra nevada mountains, where i went skiing. i recall saying "bloody snowboarders" or something similar!

anyway it appears this may only be MCN hyping up their news. but still its worth keeping an eye on, and fighting if it is true.

im very revolutionous this month.

Warthog 25 Jul 2009 20:45

There will always be idiots on two wheels, 3 or 4. Very will little will change that until they introduce an IQ test and a social emapthy rating for any new drivers wanting a licence!!

In any case, such a new scheme is utter nonsense, IMO. Exactly how would they plan to implement it? They can't sit on the back as learners are not allowed, so would they need another rider behind them at all times, on another bike? What happens if they get separated by traffic lights? Is the novice suddenly breaking the law? Will the experienced rider be a safer biker if he/she is having to watch the every move of the learner in front? Will they have to buy intercoms? Or shout advice to the learner 50 yards ahead?

The holes in the logic are pretty endless!!

Riding a bike has made me a safer driver of cars. Of this I have no doubt. I have always thought, if you want to make a biker safer, then educate the other road-users.
A smart biker will already know that other road-user's inattention is a huge hazard and the least predictable, whilst no amount of training will make a stupid biker much safer...

I have often thought that anyone wanting to learn to drive a car should spend 6 months on a scooter. They would learn to see the road from a two wheeler's perspective, they would think more from a biker's point of view once behind a wheel, many may opt for bikes and so lessen the number of cars on the road, and they would acquire far more road sense, knowing that there was no metal cage to redeem stupid mistakes and careless driving. Would this ever happen? I think we know the answer to that....

This would seem to me to be yet another plan to make the government look proactive, whilst not really addressing any issues. It would cost a minimum, and inconvenience the smallest voting group of road users whilst getting a sanctamonious round of applause from the largest.

Yet another example of modern politics: no longer tackling problems just providing plausibles illusions of tackling problems....

craig76 26 Jul 2009 00:44

What baffles me is raising the age for Direct Access to 24, when it's already well known that the mid life crisis biker and born again biker, typically around 40 years old account for a disproportionate number of serious accidents. They're not touching on the real issues here.

Scrap Direct Access as it is now and limit those who would have qualified to do it to a reasonable power level (SV650, ER6, Bandit, etc) for a year. 70bhp is more than enough for a new rider.

Also, CBT riders should have compulsory hi-viz vests, if only to encourage them to take the test to get rid of it. Police should also be given the power to revoke the CBT certificate of little s**ts riding recklessly or riding a vehicle in a dangerous condition without having to take it to court. Easy come, easy go.

ALPMONKEY 26 Jul 2009 01:45

LOOK ,the simple fact is they ''the government '' don,t give two *****about motorcycles in the uk because they don,t get any revenue from it ,
there not going to encourage two wheels , so the idea is make it so hard to pass your test , and expensive plus widen the goal posts every year for the next ten years so people lose interest and get a car instead , sitting in that traffic jam generating valuable revenue to keep this great nation , ha ha .
from economic meltdown.

plus its the freedom on the bike thats the one that pisses them off , cause they like you dumb down , down trodden , under the thumb , they,ve got you then .
o, the forty somethings ,'' like me'' when one of them becomes just another statistic they look at it as just one less biker on the road ,

All these new cars with low road tax eg ,small diesels / hybrids , do you see them doing it with new bikes , I THINK NOT .

*Touring Ted* 26 Jul 2009 07:54

The fact that its posted in MCN automatically makes me roll my eyes !!

It's the motorcycle equivalent of the Weekly World news !

craig76 26 Jul 2009 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALPMONKEY (Post 251087)
...the idea is make it so hard to pass your test , and expensive plus widen the goal posts every year for the next ten years so people lose interest and get a car instead

Already happening mate. I work for a training school and the recession, combined with the negative press regarding the changes to the test already in place, have made this year nothing short of a financial disaster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALPMONKEY (Post 251087)
o, the forty somethings ,'' like me'' when one of them becomes just another statistic they look at it as just one less biker on the road

It's a statistic they're choosing to do nothing about, partly due to pressure from the MCIA, etc. The "40 somethings" bring a sustantial amount of revenue into the industry as a whole. What do you think will happen if you tell Mr. Solicitor/Stockbroker/Doctor/Dentist/etc, that they can't have that shiny new litre sportsbike that they've set their heart on? They'll take their money somewhere else and spend it on another expensive toy or "lifestyle accessory", which is why nothing is being done about it. Good for the industry, including our business who will happily take their money for training, but a liability for road safety.


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