What's happening to Hondas?

[butchdiamond]

I had the chance to ride a new CRF450X the other day. This is said to be the new XR400 which is a bold claim. I used to have an XR400 - great bike.

Don't get me wrong the CRF was very nice - it's a bit more powerful, has more suspension travel and is a bit lighter (which is impressive considering it's water cooled) but it's no XR.

For some reason it just didn't feel right, and it didn't handle as well as my old XR and I felt much less confident with it (being spanking new didn't help).

Honda don't make XR's (apart from the 125) anymore, or the great old XRL. Also - no Africa Twin. Now I've never ridden an AT, but I know people who have them and they swear by them. Honda is doing a new Transalp instead. I had a quick ride on a 2004 TA a while back and it was ok, but not much good for rugged overlanding methinks.

All these new computer controlled, fuel injected, liquid cooled, alloy this, alloy that bikes are said to be so much better - but are they? What's wrong with a good old boot start, air cooled thumper?

Maybe I'm missing something here and I should just get a grip and move with the times, but it seems to me that Honda has binned a lot of the good old proven bikes in favour of more complicated newer "better" technology. Why?:confused1:

[wildbeeste]

Emissions
Easier to sell something labelled "New"
KTM (and other competitors)
Profit Margins
Low sales and hence low profits of XRs
but the real reason is that they knew it would upset you

[JMo (& piglet)]

Also, the trail bike and (true) overlanding market is incredibly small compared to any other catagory...

The CRF range are race bikes (the X's with lights so they can be used in enduros, and more easily made 'road legal' for those event that require such machines) - a substantially bigger market. It is also far more lucrative, as racers by their nature always want the next best thing (read next year's model), and typically trash their bikes by the end of the season, thus needing a replacement anyway...

The technology in the CRF range is a great evolution of the dirt bike as a dynamic machine for racing, but not, as you sermise, ideal for everyday riding - the maintenance schedule is far more demanding, and the engines themselves not designed for huge mileages, especially on the highway.

I too lament the passing of the world-ready trail bike... currently, only Suzuki produce anything remotely similar with their DRZ... and I understand even that will be replaced next year with an enduro version of the RMZ450...

That's progress?

In marketing and production terms (and for Honda certainly), it seems so...

xxx

[butchdiamond]

Well it's worked - bastards!

[Stephano]

Originally Posted by butchdiamond

Don't get me wrong the CRF was very nice - it's a bit more powerful, has more suspension travel and is a bit lighter (which is impressive considering it's water cooled) but it's no XR.

For some reason it just didn't feel right, and it didn't handle as well as my old XR and I felt much less confident with it (being spanking new didn't help)

I had an XR400 which I loved but was sadly stolen. I replaced it with a CRF450X. In my opinion, the difference for the better is amazing, there's less weight, power when you want it and the handling in dunes is a joy.

As for reliability, I already commute 50km on mine everyday and it's not let me down. For the ultimate test, I'm planning to ride it from the Middle East to the UK in early 2009. We'll see how it goes...

Give the CRF another chance. It might grow on you.
Stephan

[butchdiamond]

Originally Posted by Stephano

Give the CRF another chance. It might grow on you.

Fair enough. Maybe my opinion is a bit too quick off the mark.

What about the AT? Who makes a good overland twin now? I've heard good stuff about the R800GS and I hope to give one a try, but BMW doesn't have the best track record and it's a very complex machine.

I like the idea of something simple. Honda simple. Yes, I do ride a Yamaha, but because it was the right type of bike, available at the right time within my budget and, being an XTZ, it's still pretty basic.

Both BMW and Yamaha are still making overland machines new. They may be very new fangled but at least they're catering for the market. What has Honda got new for the likes of us? Bugger all, it seems.:confused1:

[PocketHead]

I think that the patenting for XR engines has expired so they sell their tooling to chineses to make chinese bikes.

[mollydog]

For the price, ease of maintenance, comfort and utter toughness, no other twin comes close.

[JMo (& piglet)]

To Add to what Mollydog has said/offered...

MCN reported recently that Honda will have a new 'XR' 250 out for 2009 - all new (and not a rehash of the older Japanese-spec e-start aircooled bike as I thought) - alloy beam frame, 250 efi engine with e-start - very much in the vain of the new WR250R, and the KLX250 that Kawasaki are meant to be bringing into the UK too next year... I guess the new EU learner laws have revitilised the sub 33bhp trailie dual-sport market?

As for a bigger RTW twin... rumours still persist of a TDM engine based 'Super Tenere' from Yamaha in 2009... if it is anything as good as the XT660Z Tenere, then it will truely be a successor (albeit blue instead of red) to the Africa Twin...

Honda do of course have their new XLV700 Transalp in Europe too, which although no mega-off-roader, I imagine would be every bit as good as a V-Strom as a RTW bike?

xxx

[butchdiamond]

Great history, Patrick. I didn't realise that Rotax made the new 800GS engine... so there is hope!

[Dazzerrtw]

The CRF is a very good bike
but the XR400 is a great bike
For raceing the CRF is the one to have but I don't think you could do over 20,000 mile's on a crf with out doing a rebuild.

I have also noticed that second hand 2003 XR's seem to sell for more than a same year CRF

[mollydog]

20,000 miles? Are you kidding?

[JMo (& piglet)]

Originally Posted by mollydog

20,000 miles? Are you kidding? Remember, Honda recommend a new top end on the CRF250R/CRF450R after 30 hours of racing. NO, not 30K miles, just 30 hours. So on tour, that's about 3 days of riding Not good.

Granted, if trail ridden or toured you could go further I'm sure, probably easily to 200 hours. But that still is nothing. The XR400 motor will last for years and thousands of hours if maintained. The CRF will need to be looked at on a regular basis.

I have to agree - my XR400 has done over 22,000 miles these past four years (it would be over 30,000 had I not bought my XR650R last year), and apart from a new cam chain at around 18,000 miles (only as a precaution I might add) and a valve check every year, it has been bulletproof and needed no attention whatsoever. I have noticed it is starting to use a little more oil now, but it has had a pretty hard life with only routine maintenance required.

I know a guy who used a CRF250X as a trail bike (the odd weekend, nothing regular) for over 18 months before he checked the valves, and it was perfectly fine.

I also have another friend who owned a CRF250X and did around 8000 miles on it over a similar time period, and was fastidiously checking the valves every couple of months, again he had no problems, but they did need shimming a couple of times. He eventually got fed up of the maintenance schedule and bought a DRZ400...

I think if you're gentle with a CRF, then you should be fine if it's a weekend plaything - but who wants to be gentle on a bike like that?!

Of course for distance work, what would be really nice is mid-capacity, say 650cc engine - plenty of power and torque for on and off-road use, but not over stressed so it will remain reliable. Screw and locknut valves for easy maintenance (no messing with shims), alloy frame for lightness and strength. Relaxed geometry for stability, Good ergonomics for comfort, simple electrics too... oh yes of course, Honda had one of those, but they stopped making it...

Good job I bought one last year!

xxx

[butchdiamond]

OK, so I rode a French guy's CRF230 this morning and I admit, I liked it even though I fell off... twice!

Not the best wheelie bike though.