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  #1  
Old 11 Feb 2009
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Government to track your overseas movements

The (Labour) government is in the process of establishing yet another of their surveillance databases. This particular piece of technology is designed to track the movements of British nationals travel movements OVERSEAS and it is for this reason HU should be aware.

The database is in the unpublicised part of the government’s so-called “e-borders” programme, intended to count everyone who comes in and out of the country by 2014. The existence and location for the database was secret and accidentally revealed by the Home Secretary last week. At the moment the UK Border Agency is running a pilot which monitors the travel movements of passengers on “high-risk” routes (i.e. the kinds of places WE like to travel to) from a small number of airports, including Heathrow and Gatwick. Under the new scheme, once a person buys a ticket to travel to or from the UK by air, sea or rail, the carrier will deliver that person’s data to the agency. The computerised pattern of every individual’s travel history will be stored for up to 10 years. The database is also expected to monitor people’s travel companions so that over time, a "pattern of associations" can be established.

Located in Wythenshawe, near Manchester and staffed by 600 people, half of which are technicians the rest police, immigration, MI5 & MI6 officers. The data is also expected to be shared with foreign governments, agencies of foreign governments and if the practice of the DVLA is to be followed, sold to commercial entities. Surveiled UK citizens are not permitted to know to what use the information is to be put, which foreign governments or agencies of foreign governments the data is shared with and what data those entities supply in return to the UK agency - i.e. their movements in that country and places stayed, with whom they might associate in a foreign country.

It is unclear how you can be tracked on a bike except that “high-risk” routes as defined by this paranoid government and not using the kind of transport that can easily be tracked would immediately flag you up as “a person of interest” and in say Morocco, that might be open to interpretation and not a good thing to be.

One of my motivations for travelling is to escape the ID cards, CCTV and the sinister surveillance society the UK is sadly becoming but it seems the government is trying to find ways to keep me AND YOU under surveillance even when we are outside of our own country. Of course if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Do you
.
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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So they're going to count me out and count me in. I thought they already did that when I handed my passport over and they checked me on the database or is this something different?
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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Originally Posted by backofbeyond View Post
So they're going to count me out and count me in. I thought they already did that when I handed my passport over and they checked me on the database or is this something different?

It is indeed something very different. Although part of border control, this is a surveillance database intended to track and store your movements not just into and out of the country but where you go and with whom you associate so that inferences may be drawn. Under the RIPA laws failure to disclose to a designated official data they request (i.e. which countries you intend to visit and why) will be a criminal offence and may result in you being denied "the privallege" of travel through the confiscation of your passport and from 2012 your identity card which of course, will also be your driving license too by then.

If your "driving privileges" are also withdrawn (via the database onto your ID card) you will not be able to ride your bike or obtain insurance for it (you'll need your ID card to do that). Your internal movements can then be tracked by another of the linked databases every time you purchase a ticket to travel on public transport.

When people talked about the database state and the surveillance society, this is what they meant. Neat huh?
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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hey

is there any external links to confirm this information?
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  #5  
Old 11 Feb 2009
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Originally Posted by tommysmithfromleeds View Post
is there any external links to confirm this information?
knock yourself out Tommy:-

BBC NEWS | UK | Government plans travel database

Government compiles travel records database - UK Politics, UK - The Independent

Spy centre will track you on holiday -Times Online

there's plenty more about this and related issues for those who've had their heads burried in the sand for the last five years.

Just as a further example, hidden in the new Coroners and Justice Bill is one clause (cl.152) amending the Data Protection Act. It would allow ministers to make 'Information Sharing Orders', that can alter any Act of Parliament and cancel all rules of confidentiality in order to use information obtained for one purpose to be used for another.

This single clause is as grave a threat to privacy as the entire ID Scheme. Combine it with the index to your life formed by the above database and the planned National Identity Register and everything recorded about you anywhere could be accessible to any official body or foreign government or agency of a foreign government.




Also, under the US "Patriot Act" any US company must disclose to the US government and data they hold even if that data is held in a foreign country or foreign subsidiary. It is a federal offence to reveal the fact that the US government even made that order. Why is this relevent you may ask? Well most of the huge database contracts are held by US companies and inter alia, the US government so fingers crossed when travelling through i.e. Jordan that you don't share a name or even an association with a "person of interest"...
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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I don't see why people assume this is such a bad thing, what difference does it really make to me if the government knows what flights / trips I have done and also who with?

Genuinely I am not trying to troll or anything, I just don't see it as such a big deal.
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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Taking Liberties

Hi, get a copy of the book Taking Liberties and your question will be answered. Really, it is an essential book to read. It would be worth paying four times the asking price for such enlightenment. I am not being sarcy. Linzi. ps The next time I travel overseas I intend to do so troubling no-one but also avoiding this surveillance. haven't worked out how yet but am really working at it. Heil Hitler. Linzi.
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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Originally Posted by steved1969 View Post
I don't see why people assume this is such a bad thing, what difference does it really make to me if the government knows what flights / trips I have done and also who with?

Genuinely I am not trying to troll or anything, I just don't see it as such a big deal.

Steved - if living under mass state surveillance makes you feel safer that's cool. This being a travel site there are many states to which you can travel where you feel very safe. I'm thinking China, Burma, Syria..actually none of these states have the kind of mass surveillance we in the UK do so perhaps I'm wrong. You might care to ask the Russian or East German readers of HU what difference, prior to 1989 it really make to them if the government knows what flights / trips they had done and also who with?

Anyway, my point is there are many who think this is a very sinister thing indeed and even if you there are those of us who do not wish to live in such a state. If we do not want a political party to eviserate every part of our privacy that is OUR right. Your privalege is to question that right but like the government, not to take that right away.

I feel like saying "unless by gun point" but Orwell was spot on about Ingsoc. As long as the proles have their DVD, internet, , gambling, etc. then they're happy.
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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Originally Posted by Fastship View Post
Steved - if living under mass state surveillance makes you feel safer that's cool.
It isn't a case of living under mass state surveillance making me feel safe, it's more a case of the mass state surveillance not having any impact on me or the way I live my life. I appreciate that this may sound incredibly naive but I just don't have an issue with it or view it as anything sinister.
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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1984

Some 15 years ago I found out that a flight by me to a South American country had been recorded because a trip to an EU country triggered a passport check on me out of 100 passengers. Even back then flight info was recorded, cheap. Software scanned it, cheap. Then an immigration officer speaks to you, cheap. After that I don't know what, more expensive. They wasted their time with me but I now know that much is already recorded. Big Brother is not a house! My intended port of exit on a bike has outward facing cameras to record licence numbers. I am working on it but it looks like going very illegal is needed to move around minding your own business now. Heil Hitler, Linzi.
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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Thanks for the links mate. no offence, but its always better to hear from the horses mouth as well.

Obviously this means the the uk govenrment would have to have access to foreign immigration data, right? I wonder how other nations would feel about this? Although I guess foreign governments would rather let your own nation deal with you, if you did something wrong.

I hope the UK government keeps an open mind towards the adventure traveller, after all the world is for travelling. I would hate to find myself in Columbia been chased by cops because some narrow minded a******e, sitting in a sweaty shirt in an office outside Manchester, 'red flags' me becasue "who on earth would want to ride around columbia"?..."ah, he must be a drug dealer...".

Still though, I guess I wouldnt complain if I was sat in a cell in the Sudan awaiting my release that was quickly arranged by the GB embassy because "yeah hes alright, hes just some guy on a bike".
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linzi View Post
Hi, get a copy of the book Taking Liberties and your question will be answered. Really, it is an essential book to read. It would be worth paying four times the asking price for such enlightenment. I am not being sarcy. Linzi. ps The next time I travel overseas I intend to do so troubling no-one but also avoiding this surveillance. haven't worked out how yet but am really working at it. Heil Hitler. Linzi.
Linzi - first off if you (or anyone else) has not already done so you can buy yourself some time by obtaining a new passport.

Why you should renew your passport, or get one NOW if you are 16 or over.
The Identity Cards Act 2006 may soon turn your passport into a one-way ticket to government control of your identity. That means lifelong surveillance, and untold bureaucracy. This website, produced by the NO2ID campaign, is about how getting a new passport can help you avoid being forced to register your life on the ID database.

See:
renew for freedom - renew your passport
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  #13  
Old 11 Feb 2009
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Yip

Hi yes I know. I personally get involved with NO2ID.com. Actually, some time ago I was stopped from taking a wrapped boomerang on a flight. OK throw it away, no problem really but the immigration officer hung around to see which airline I had dealt with so I guess now I am listed as having tried to take a weapon onboard. Nice? Also reasons to be worried include what happens when incorrect info is held or mistakes made. On Guardian or Independent website in last two weeks there was a story of just that. The woman had great problems--no passport and no ID card. Administration mistake. Heil Hitler--We need a signing off line that isn't offensive to modern Germans but doesn't say Ciao rather indicates Big Brother breathes--down our necks. Linzi.
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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Originally Posted by Linzi View Post
Hi yes I know. I personally get involved with NO2ID.com. Actually, some time ago I was stopped from taking a wrapped boomerang on a flight. OK throw it away, no problem really but the immigration officer hung around to see which airline I had dealt with so I guess now I am listed as having tried to take a weapon onboard. Nice? Also reasons to be worried include what happens when incorrect info is held or mistakes made. On Guardian or Independent website in last two weeks there was a story of just that. The woman had great problems--no passport and no ID card. Administration mistake. Heil Hitler--We need a signing off line that isn't offensive to modern Germans but doesn't say Ciao rather indicates Big Brother breathes--down our necks. Linzi.

It's no good throwing it away Linzi - it would just come right back at you - DUH!!!
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Old 11 Feb 2009
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The USA has had similar programs in place even before 9/11. After 9/11 they were given billions more to initiate even more Orwellian procedures. Data mining is all part of it and it can only lead to even tighter Police state rule and will never protect us from anyone.

I've recently found out US Homeland Security have every travel move I've made in last 7 or 8 years.

Mistakes? They make plenty of mistakes. Coming into Canada in '03 I was asked about the White Supremacist group I was (supposedly) a member of in N. Carolina. I had not even been to N. Carolina since 1985 and was there only four months working at that time.

I asked for details .... and they instantly dropped it and let me go. Sometimes a border guard will throw things out just to get a reaction. Bait. Coming back into the US this last November ('08 from Mexico) the guy says: "oh, I see you make a lot of trips to Mexico." I was in my van and they gave it the full search. On the bike, less problems but they still record your entrance and details in the computer. IT'S ALL THERE!

Once you get on someone's list .... and this can happen just from making one comment to the robot behind the computer screen .... This list will be shared internationally. Your file will have everything about you and can potentially delay you or STOP you at any border you cross.

Cheers,

Patrick
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