Being kidnapped. A sober thought
 

I’m not sure if this is really relevant – maybe I should say appropriate… if the moderator thinks not, please feel free to delete it…

The way, in which the world is changing at the moment, travellers are being kidnapped ! this is a very real danger.

Does anyone have sensible advice / experiences they can share ?

For example, what to / what not to say, what and who you should communicate to .. how to act and or promise…

I’m afraid it will all go out of the window and you’ll rely on your inner mental strength.

I would stay at home. It's far too dangerous abroad. All those foreigners, and all. What about the food? They don't even speak English, do they? There's people behind every lamp post just itching to kidnap you.

If I were to venture to foreign fields I would say I'm an athiest (or possibly, a dyslexic, agnostic, insomniac) buddhist and drive a tank.
HTH
:cool4:

You’re absolutely right, stupid thread… should go to bed earlier and not stay up watching stupid movies…..

everywhere is dangerous, I have had more grief at home than abroad (but I do spend more time here...). If everyone you meet you greet with open smiles and warm handshakes, everybody will respond in the same way. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it......

The hint that claiming atheism would protect you might be a red-herring. In my experience travelling through Islamic countries the people who are 'religously motivated' will have more respect for a Christian than a godless individual. If you want to protect yourself maybe read the Qor'an, there's a lot in there about the close relationship between Muslims and Christians.

Best thing to do with people that tell you what you are doing is too dangerous is just ignore them, go in with blind faith in human nature but keep your eyes open!

My entire post was a red herring/tongue-in-cheek.

The punchline to the dyslexic/agnostic/insomniac joke was: He lay awake at night, worried if there was a dog or not.

ChrisB

hey, that's my joke!

I once met a man who led nature tours in Rwanda I think it was. His tour was kidnapped, and I think almost half of the members were killed. It was made into a book, and perhaps it came out as a film too. I was surprised when he told one of the women who was 'chatting' with one of the abductors, to stop and be quiet. He seemed to feel making that link was dangerous, that you want minimal contact. Though I would certainly try that approach. I have no experience with this, but in situations dealing with people who are 'borderline', (always happened in the US, as opposed to abroad) getting them on your side, finding a bond, whatever, has always proved useful for me.
There are so many variables, that you can't possible pre-plan, but certainly useful to have some ideas ahead of time.
Lorraine

Thanks Lorraine, you understood my original post !!! thanks M...

I wouldn't say this was a stupid thread. It's something that is extremely unlikely to happen but if it makes people feel better to think they are prepared for the eventuality then...

I remember reading once that the best thing to do if your are taken prisoner as a POW by a regime that does not abide by the Geneva convention (i.e. pretty much any country in the world apparently) you should try to be as non-descript as possible. Answer questions with the minimum of fuss, avoid eye contact etc, appear completely defeated.

This gives your captors no reason to pick you out for early summary execution/beatings/to be their new 'wife'. It also gives you more chance to escape as they are less likely to be keeping a close eye on you.

Whether this transfers to hostage situations I have no idea!

Matt :)

Just tell any kidnappers that you are incontinent, and if they have guns/knives pointing at you they probably would believe you!!

An old female friend of mine who had been on some 'anti' rape course was told, that is the best way to deter a rapist.

I was relegated to the BAR! Re: Kidnappings
 

Nice place you got here, I need a beer!

Now, under normal circumstances, much like that famous cowboy also born in Oklahoma, and who also went gaucho to Argentina, "I would never consider joining any group that would have me as a member,"

BUT I WAS SENT HERE! UNBELIEVEABLE!!!

And, as all patrons of this bar surely know, kidnappings are not normal circumstances.

The other guy was the famous Cherokee-American cowboy, comedian, humorist, social commentator, vaudeville performer and actor. Will Rogers until his untimely death in a plane crash in 1935 with his friend and also famous one eyed pilot Wally Post. Arguably, Will Rogers most famous quote is, " I never met a man I didn't like." Today that quote would be I never met a "person" I didn't like. I try my best, to live my life with these two simple, but brilliant, beliefs.

Enough, about me and my beliefs, here is what I want to share with you regarding kidnappings. Not, myself as a victim, but as a vicarious spectator wanting with all my heart to help the hostages.

If you are a trained and experienced *"remote viewer" (*DOD, CIA , etc and Wikipedia plus thousands of other internet references) and you are able to discover any truth about missing travelers in Tunisia, during a remote viewing sessions, do not post that information on:

Travellers' Advisories, Safety and Security on the Road.

Especially if your post is 5 days prior to breaking news of the travelers kidnapping. For example, I posted:

"This info gathered via a remote viewing session. Take it or leave it, but I had to try. I am better than average but certainly not 100% all the time."

"I believe They went caravanning into desert, after Matmata about 150-175 K oases, or further in direction of TOZEUR some reason they are without their own cloths, dressing as locals? Fuel problem of some kind, keeps jamming in. Not absolutely sure about this at all.

My advice immediate contact with Berbers between Matmata and KEBILI, DOUZ or as far as TOZEUR indicated. Contact should be done in a manner conforming to Berber culture and language. Someone should spend some effort here. Wish I was there!"

Yep, I knew that and according to recent reports, it seems to be true.

And especially don't post if you are able to describe anything about the kidnapping with any detail that might turn out to have been true.

If you are the only one posting anything helpful, other than news reports, before it breaks in the international media beware, you will end up in the BAR, like me.

But first you will be insulted, and admonished for bringing to the table the religious based nature motivating the kidnapping. Oh no, we can't talk about that, oh no, we might hear something that conflicts with our beliefs. Your posts will be edited so your response to insulting remarks look like they come from thin air... And you will get a nice e-mail from the moderator, who has himself been raked over the coals, for allowing someone to even allude to the basic why of the kidnapping.

No, let's keep it all quiet, let's pretend they are the bad guys and we are compassionate loving people.

And second, never offer a solution that requires the participation of others that might actually, and this based on well documented similar situations in the past, help the abductors release their victims.

No, don't do that. I recommend you find a sandy patch of beach, no one has yet discovered, and just stick your head in the sand and wait.

Thanks for listening, Now, where's that beer? xfiltrate

Because I believe in ......
 

Free speech

I may not agree with what you say, but to your death I will defend your right to say it." - Voltaire

But at the same time I strongly agree with:-

The Demon-Haunted World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And to my life I would rather defend a defender of science than a misseller of hope.

I wish all well

Here, have a beer xfiltrate. Your efforts to help did not go unnoticed. Not sure what that was all about earlier. I think a number of misunderstandings got muddled, and alas, you were bumped. Not fair at all.
What you said about adhering to standards/customs of local culture was completely on. And I certainly don't think you should bury your head in the sand if it happens again. Instead, another beer, and get back on the bike again???
Lorraine

Seriously . . . got held up by Maoists in Nepal last year. Cost me $60 to 'escape'. I got a discount from the standard $100 fee because I was not an American! They even gave me an official receipt!
But the real scary part was; they really did kidnap 35 males from the small village we were in (1 male person from each family) and took then all into the hills for the mandatory 6 month brainwashing before letting them return to their families!

This thread reminds me of the Long Way Down chat about Kidnappings and when in Africa things go downhill very quickly.... "The PRATS"

Statistically you stand more chance of setting foot on the south pole then being kidnapped while being away form home.

But just in case Smile be nice and friendly, play dumb, if your going to be knidnapped might as well make em like you at least a little bit. Look at Patty Hearst she made it FUN to be kidnapped.

Update: 13mar08
 

Hi, this is the marginalized man, the cowboy sittin at the very end of the bar with his hat pulled down low and a report to give. Breaking news regarding the two Austrian hostages taken in the desert of Tunisia, is that the people claiming to have the couple, want to exchange the 2 hostages for a few of their own.

If anybody here can still walk you can go up to: Travellers' Advisories, Safety and Security on the Road, and read the latest reports for yourself. The news agencies report that there is a 3 day deadline for the exchange to take place, knowing the muslim culture as I do, (as a military brat, I graduated high school in Ankara, Turkey), and wandered around a lot, in the middle east deadlines come and go frequently, without any change. But, it is my opinion that the ones who are holding the hostages are not fooling around.

I certainly don't want to get thrown out of here too, so let me put this in a way that everyone can have easily.

Please note the use of the word game has no positive or negative connotation. As it states in the dictionary, a game is played according to the rules, toward a specific goal. That's it.

The point of view of the captors (the ones who took the Austrians) might be that their "brothers" were also taken hostage and being held against their will.

I, personally, doubt the "brothers" in question were just doing the tourist thing in far off lands, and more likely were on some kind of a mission, with a goal, much more important to them, than just having a great road trip.

I may be wrong, but I believe the "brothers" entered the game, knew the rules and decided to play. On the other hand, the Austrian couple's goal was to have a great road trip, they went to Tunisia, a sort of tourist destination, knew those rules and decided to play.

They had little or no interest in playing any other game, beyond having a great road trip.

Apparently, on behalf of the "brothers" the captors decided to change the rules in the middle of the game for the Austrian couple. They have been forced into a game they never wanted to play.

The world has taken note of this event, the true heart and spirit of the "brothers" will be on the stage of public opinion no matter how this game ends.

I know, in my well worn heart, that this game will end soon and the world will rejoice as the Austrians return to their home, with a story to tell the world.

That's it for now, you can't imagine how cold your ears get when you have had your head stuck in beach sand for a night or two. How is it out there in the desert Chris? xfiltrate

You need to get out more.
The place you live in too safe. I have seen people die from the work they do and one from jogging, had a hart atack and died right on the street, seen a few crashes that killed people.
You can get kidnap but will that fear rule your life? It wont rule mine.
To reduce you chances stay out of places know for it stay out of places where people are mad at your country. Try to get away, if you do get caught try to get on there good side. Most want cash and dont want to kill you, If its political ask about there side of the story say anything to keep them from getting mad at YOU. A little sympathy for there plite will go along way.

As an American I know people hate my government. There are places I cant go because of the trifling and wars a few rich greedy people have made.

Not so bad...
 

That's the attitude that will get you free. Listen to them, you don't have to agree, but you HAVE to show respect for their beliefs. Besides mafia kidnappings, most are just wanting some attention and financial relief.

If you travel, leave your EGO at home!! Kindness and respect goes a long way. Have no AGENDAS and have a flexible schedule...

What most Gringos don't understand is that you ARE A GUEST and THEY OWN the home. I don't care what you "paid" for or what you think your "rights" are.....

Personally, I have only been held at gunpoint by Maoist "Shining Path" terrorists once, and we parted amicably .... Do I believe in their movement? No. They have killed friends of mine. Is anger and ATTITUDE going to heal the world? NO.

Toby (charapa) Around the Block 2007 |

Uhmmm....
 

Uhm... forgive me, if this is a really stupid question (or if it had been asked) - but if you ARE confident in your training/experience -- why are you posting on a public newsgroup about something which is so critical?

Would not your best course of action be, getting in touch with police / authorities / at worst, the relatives of the missing people?

Surely with talents such as yours, you have a responsiblity - else why bother making them public at all?

At least you seem to have been able to understand xfiltrates posts, I think a few of us have been totally confused!
The terrorists seem to have NO problem kidnapping innocent tourists and stopping The Dakar, I bet they could 'Not take out' (Red) Ken Livingstone...Mayor who's screwing London.
:death:
:eek3:

Trail Blazing through some very rough bush
 

Dear Uhm, no, I do not think your question stupid. Actually, it comes as a relief, and puts words to the feelings , of what I now perceive as the opinions of others posting on: Travellers' Advisories, Safety and Security on the Road.

In my haste to get my results out to family, authorities and people, whom I perceived to be competent people on the ground, like over landers, and perhaps former Peace Corps volunteers residing in Tunisia, my initial post went to my source of the data regarding the "Missing Couple," and that was Grant.

Immediately after I posted on the HUBB, I e-mail various contacts, such as the "bulletin board" for Peace Corps Tunisia, and, rather than send my results, to the police/military I left that to those who actually had com lines open to "authorities."

My goal was to get what I knew to be true out there as quickly as possible, and I made a huge error in judgement. I knew my data would be valid for a few fleeting days at best, the reality is by the time the authorities deployed, my data would be outdated.

It was a desperate attempt, to get the information, I knew to be true to family etc, through Grant, whom has previous knowledge of a real life example of my remote viewing abilities, if he checked me out.

I know my data was relayed to the authorities. At the time I posted, the couple was reported as missing, not abducted and the authorities are much slower to react to missing people.

You are absolutely right, I never should have posted my information on the HUBB, and as you have read and quoted recent posts, I have strongly advised others against posting information, obtained outside of the context of what is known to be the mechanics of the physical universe, on the HUBB.

Short answer, I made a mistake in my haste to get my information out. Thank you for noticing my mistake and pointing it out to me. I promise it will never, never happen again.

My posts made no sense to people who have no knowledge of the day to day contributions of remote viewer worldwide.

Several of the major governments of the world have secrete remote viewing units, for intelligence gathering purposes. Russia, China, the US and several others all have well funded and extensive remote viewing programs and have had for the last 30 or 40 years. I have met personally, a qualified remote viewer, who works and is paid quite well, for combatting industrial espionage in Great Britain. xfiltrate

huh?
 

Maybe its me but I even tried Google Translator - English to English (hidden option) on the above but it didn't come any more understandable than the original, only more blabla.

I've given up!

Cheers,
Noel

kidnappings problems
 

ive read this thread and i think i understand some of the points being made...and i must emphasise that i in no way wish to underestimate the potential dangers of being on the road...and perhaps im in danger of becomming blase but i have to be honest its the dangers and the problems that make the trip enjoyable (even if only in retrospect) and the good thing about dangers is that at least there will be something interesting to put on the web site

jeff watts

Gone wandering

Remote viewing when it works is scary. Seen it done know people that can do it they wont talk much about it. Like an out of body experience. Nothing can stop the viewer. Not walls, not electronics nothing but possible a stronger viewer.

Some say its all hocus pocus, government conseracy thing but a hell of a lot funds have been put in to it. Its the deepest darkest hush hush sorta of thing.

As far as dangers and the problems on the road kidnapping rates near the bottom. I think about it but alot less than getting sick and being dehydrated in the desert or hitting a dear that jumps in front of me. Both have happened to me and both had the ability to kill me faster than a kidnapper.

funny how they won't talk about it
 

apparently the british government spent money on researching hitlers horoscope! I wouldn't necessarily use that as proof. Care to explain what you saw?
I'm obviously a sceptic, but would love to have something like this proved to me.

They might not, but I will talk about "it"
 

Ollie, first, your conclusion that I was trying to prove anything by referring to government funding, of anything, was not and is not my intention.

Here are the basics. Most people see from red to violet on the color scale. All other colors perceived by the naked eye fall some where in between. And of course there is black and white.

The difference between red and violet is the difference between the the distance between the crests of the waves of light for each color.

We know throught the use of scientific "tools" that below red is infra red and above violet is ultra violet, light not commonly perceived by the human eye without the aid of scientific instruments, we can call "tools."

Only when "tools" were developed that could detect infra red and ultra violet were these proven and included in the spectrum of light.

It is only when we develop scientific instruments, "tools" that can detect a soul or spirit, which has no measurable< AS OF THIS WRITING> matter, energy, or space or time, will there be proof of how "remote viewing" works. At least how it works for me, and I am more than well aware that there are other methods of remote viewing currently in play and many trained in these other methods are more accurate than I am.

Here is what I posted:

5 days prior to breaking news of the travelers kidnapping. I posted:

"This info gathered via a remote viewing session. Take it or leave it, but I had to try. I am better than average but certainly not 100% all the time."

"I believe They went caravanning into desert, after Matmata about 150-175 K oases, or further in direction of TOZEUR some reason they are without their own cloths, dressing as locals? Fuel problem of some kind, keeps jamming in. Not absolutely sure about this at all.

My advice immediate contact with Berbers between Matmata and KEBILI, DOUZ or as far as TOZEUR indicated. Contact should be done in a manner conforming to Berber culture and language. Someone should spend some effort here. Wish I was there!"

Yep, I knew that and according to recent reports, it seems to be true.

(the one week ago post dates on the thread are not accurate, as anyone who read the posts in real time knows)

This is what I perceived via a remote viewing session and it was posted on the HUBB 5 full days before the news of a kidnapping. Based on current media reports, their direction of travel and the route they were on appears to have been correct.

As much as you would love to have remote viewing proved to you, from my point of view, you will have to wait until science can measure, detect and accurately define the soul or spirit of man/woman. Once that is achieved and it will also be proven that the soul or the spirit has perceptual abilities that can expand the perceptual abilities of a human body and mind.

This is my own personal opinion. Others utilizing remote viewing for increasing their own perceptual abilities might not agree with me. Some might, but most probably not. There are many points of view on remote viewing.

I have the ability of perception beyond what is explainable in terms of the mechanics of the physical universe. I have no need whatsoever to prove these abilities to you or anyone else, but to use these abilities to help humanity survive. And, I want to learn, to know, when and how to share my perceptions with others, in an acceptable manner, that is, I do not want to create effects in others that they cannot have easily. I apologize if I have created any effects in you that you did not have easily, or I have offended you in any way. That was never my intention.

Hey DLbiten, I am quickly becoming a fan of yours, please let's hear more. thanks xfiltrate

I cant prove it to you but you know that feeling when your riding down a twisty road and you dont make a mistake? Like the bike was finding its own way down and your gust along for the ride? When have that feeling like you need get out of the place your in? None of that can be quantified its all a feeling some say its your soul or spirit reaching out to you.

Your spirit know whats on the road its been there. If you can feel what the spirit "sees" you get the chance interpret that. Step that up a bunch and you have an out of body experience. Where your along for the ride, but the spirit still gose whew ever it wants. With practice you can get the spirit go to places you want as in remote viewing. Problems are your unconscious mind dose the seeing for you it dosnt get things right all the time and I think it has a sense of humor you conscience mind dose not get. The spirit will go where ever it wants to getting it to want to go some place is poor at best. You spirit is tied to you with a "silver string" the same string written about in books and songs from the Bible to rock.

But to prove all this no way. You will need to experance it.

I dont do it any more. Its hard work to keep up you skills and the info you get is a burden at times, some times wrong, some times sick and scary.

xfiltrate can get his spirit to want to go some place and let it out of his body for a time.

Interesting
 

Great - I love talking about all of this, usually over a beer or three at the bar. Well I'm in a bar, but they won't let me drink with my breakfast at work :)

Now, obviously from my previous posts I'm a sceptic, but a sceptic with an interest, and there’s a difference.

So, what I believe you are describing is the equivalent of being 'in the zone', where the conscious mind, lets the far superior sub-conscious take over. I get this much more playing sport. Not just fast moving sports, but sometimes also things such as swimming or running (I'm not fast at either). Friends of mine who rock climb say the same thing. More specifically I get it playing squash, cricket or even rugby, and it's the greatest feeling on earth, and I think that’s why some people play sports. Interestinly I have read of epileptics getting something similar before a seizure.

I have also heard it linked to things like Zen archery and tea making, which is also intriguing. But none of this I think is anything out of the ordinary. I am currently reading Born on a Blue Day, regarding a unique individual with autism. This shows us what a human mind can do, when some of the 'shackles' are thrown off. Well worth a read for anyone who's interested. Also, for a thouroughly scientific exploration try reading 'the Man who mistook his wife for a Hat'
I suppose perhaps where our view points may coalesce is perhaps remote viewing is something you believe could be an extrapolation of this?
And that would make me happy, but ........
..... the question I would suggest is why can’t we have proof? Without being able to prove it, it means nothing? Surely we could ask xfiltrate (or another viewer) to come into, say, my house and tell me I am watching Eastenders? (He’d be wrong!). Otherwise what use is all of this to people like the military?
Please don’t get me wrong, I believe we haven’t explored a minute part of what the brain can do, and there is plenty for science to learn. But if you can’t prove any of this, surely it’s all just fantasy?
Personally I would like remote viewing to be possible, but I don’t think an argument of ‘The military are exploring it’ and ‘you can’t prove it’, is going to win over many people. I want proof – goddamit!
And a beer ……

B*gger i have been there (well close enough anyway) twice .. so does this mean i am a target?? I shoudl stay home???:eek3::eek3::eek3::eek3:

Basic problem and an idea
 

No problem buying you a beer, or even nudging others to do the same. I predict you will be swimming in beer soon. lol

The basic problem is remote viewing, my definition, has aspects that cannot yet be measured, and certain measurements would be required to present as facts for peer evaluation (other scientist to duplicate) and as required for the inclusion in scientific journal articles. This is the route for something to be proven.

Many remote viewers started their quest for enlightenment as scientologists. Scientologists are not asked nor required to believe anything that is not absolutely true and proven by their own experience. This threatens many governments and many have gone to great effort to stop the scientologists, primarily because a key teaching is the importance of ethics in all aspects of life and this includes in governments. This insistence and the "putting in" of ethics in governments of the world is very disturbing to leaders of governments in general.

If you want to know what eithics are being put in by the scientologists, please refer to the official scientologist web site and check definitions.

OK, getting your ethics in via scientology or finding out about ethics and putting them in on yourself, by yourself, doing, or getting training in remote viewing by remote viewers, and by abiding by their protocol, will enable you to prove to yourself that remote viewing works or not .

It is a lot of work. Just getting my ethics in took me 30 years. I am a good person, but had no concept of ethics as required to enable myself to "remote view." You see, we, people are basically good and we withhold from ourselves our abilities for fear we will harm others. It is only when we gain the certainty that availing ourselves of our abilities will not hurt others, but help others survive, that we allow ourselves to have those abilities, like what is commonly called - remote viewing.

For me it is a lot of work. Each session, for me, requires half a day, at least, I have to be well rested, alcohol/any drug free comfortable and not hungry. I have to be there comfortably, sometimes for hours before I even exteriorize. Once exterior, as DLbiten said it is a bit scary and I have encountered others, also exteriorized. No harm has ever come to me, except becoming very depressed for short periods of time upon seeing things that upset me greatly.

Part of the training is to enable one to have facility up and down all the emotions and have the ability to put oneself in the appropriate emotion based upon accurate perceptions of others and the environment.

OK it is a lot of work. I suggest you get on with it. No one, is going to give you anything, you have to do the work.

Please do not launch into an attack on scientology here. I am merely stating the fact that many, including those who established the remote viewing programs of the militaries of the world, were or are scientologists. That is all! I do not put here at all, my opinion of scientology or of any other religion or philosophy. xfiltrate

Don't mention the S word ......
 

Wow! Thanks for that. Very interesting. Now of course I wouldn’t attack Scientology as you have been so kind to answer my questions. But I would guess that someone will at some point. I’m sure you know that it is word that produces a reaction amongst people. I don’t know more than I have read in the tabloids so wouldn’t even be able to comment. Certainly from what you write it sounds like a cross or combination of Buddhism and Star Wars. Or perhaps they sound like Scientology J
Anyway, obviously it hasn’t changed my view, but I would like one day to sit and get very drunk and discuss this further. I have learnt over years the ‘point’ of these discussions is not to persuade someone, but to slowly influence them. More influencing needed here!

You are right!
 

My understanding is that L Ron Hubbard, after careers in the military (Naval Officer), writing, he was one of the most prolific writers of wild west and science fiction books and articles of his time, explorer and student of physics did extensive research and did study all the major philosophies and religions of the world, past and present. From this view point, he created Dianetcis and Scientology. He selected aspects of present and past religions and philosophies that worked and actually helped people survive.

if anyone wants more data please go to the official Scientology web site. It would be inappropriate for me to try to explain Dianetics and Scientology as all the information is correctly presented and readily available to anyone on web sites and in the Missions and Organizations world wide. There are also hundreds of books available beginning with BOOK ONE Dianetics the Modern Science of Mental Health which has been translated into numerous languages and holds records for being on the NY Times best seller list for decades.

It is my understanding that the Scientologists do not use the expression "remote viewing." I believe this terminology was created for military/intelligence services projects and experiments. I may be incorrect, but I have never encountered the words "remote viewing" in any book of Dianetics or Scientology.

I do know one thing for certain, According to the Scientologists, your belief in a Supreme Being is based on what your experiences have taught you to be true, and being a Scientologist in no way conflicts with being Christian or Musslin or Buddist or Morman or Catholic or Hindu, etc. Scientology welcomes you and how ever you choose to worship God.

I am keenly aware that Scientology has been attacked by the media and by some governments of the world. I am also aware of the good the Scientologists are doing, with their How to Study Programs, drug rehab programs, Civil Rights and Patients Rights, educational programs regarding health and programs combatting the use of electro shock and the phycho active drugs, disaster relief, government administration, police and prison programs, extensive environmental programs, their protection of endangered species programs and on and on and on. I also know why the media, some governments and the medical establishment attack Scientology and encourage each of you to look into Dianetics and Scientology and decide for yourself if it is for you or not. And, after discovering what it is, determine why it is being attacked, the motivations of attacks against scientology might surprise you. xfiltrate

travellers forum or what?
 

I was under the impression that this was a travellers hubb but it seems to slowly turn in to a hubb for people who seem to find it very important to tell others about their believes and convictions of life. I think there are more appropriate sites to advertise for scientology!

Or am I the only one who thinks this is out of place!

Noel

Travelers Forum
 

I am quite new here but also agree with you!

Aren't we in the bar?
 

I thought the bar was created for exactly this type of discussion.

Personally I would rather make my mind up over scientology by speaking to someone who holds it close to themselves than from what I read in The Sun (sorry for the British reference).

I hope that travellng is broadening your mind by listening to other's opinion, and hence, personally find this the perfect place to discuss it.

Perhaps your discussion is better aimed at the discussion about whether to open a bar on the HUBB, rather than at this partcular thread?

I most certainly am not a scientologist, or even arrogant enough to think any of my opinons on religion/faith are correct, but I do like to listen to others.

This post is entirely at home in "The Bar". If you don't like spit and sawdust, don't enter. Let's talk s*%*!

Not a thread about Scientology
 

Ollie,

I fully agree with your thoughts on the HU Bar but this thread was about being kidnapped and should we worry about it. I'm sitting in my house currently looking at my kids playing, in 1 week from now we are leaving South Africa on our way to Europe. We will be passing through Tunisia, we won't change our route because of recent happenings but it is something rumbling in the back of our minds, hence my reason for reading this thread as it was very relevant to traveling. I cannot help but feel that the value of this thread is being diluted, sorry just my humble opinion. :cool4:

Jean,

I think due to discussion going off-topc there:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-tunisia-33542

the discussion moved over here.

It is "The Bar", and it serves ideally to contain all manner of irrelevancies.

If you have real concerns and are looking for advice, can I suggest you post a separate thread under the "Travellers Advisories" forum?

HU Bar
 

Point taken :cool4:

It was nice to follow people's views on kidnappings, it was an interesting thread for a while, for me at least

Pre-trip paranoia, I suppose :rolleyes2:

Bar Talk
 

Sorry, I do realise the kidnapping is serious subject, and hope I haven't made it too hard for people to follow the information.

But yes, I think there are more relavent threads now.

I must admit I'm surprised to have found scientologists on the HUBB. And I didn't know that scientology involve something similar to remote viewing.

I'd just heard about aliens and Hollywood involvement.

I'm sure there are all types of religeons/philosophies on the HUBB. I wonder who else we have here?

You are only as alive as you communicate
 

I believe the more a person communicates, the more alive that person is. Communication gives us understanding of others and communication allows us to share who we are and what we believe and enables us to produce great art, which, my opinion is a a high level of communication.

I agree that this "Kidnap" thread is not the proper venue to discuss Scientology. But discussing one aspect of Scientology, might be.

That aspect labeled , "remote viewing" by non Scientologists, is directly related to kidnapping. The location of many hostages has been determined by various "remote viewers." The location of a "lost" A bomb was accurately described by remote viewers, even though it was at great depths in the ocean. See internet for descriptions of industrial and government run remote viewing programs.

I introduced the topic of Scientology only in relation to "remote viewing" and the fact that many of the first remote viewers who established remote viewing programs (this includes the preliminary research done at Stanford and at MIT) had been Scientologists.

Other than the fact that the industrial/government/military remote viewing protocols share some characteristics of higher level training in Scientology and the fact that the originators of many remote viewing programs were at one time or another were, or are Scientologists, there is no need to discuss the merits of Scientology and as I previously stated that information is better obtained from the official Scientology web site.

Here is the connection as I see it. Learning to be exterior, or you, yourself as a soul or spiritual being having perceptual abilities beyond what the body and mind are capable of perceiving is where Scientology might be helpful to hostages.

An example was my post on the HUBB regarding the Missing Couple is Tunisia.

So, that said, no more discussions of scientology here other than if any one is interested they should visit a Scientology organization.

I just wanted to explain how Scientology came up on this Kidnap thread.

Thanks for understanding xfiltrate



for

good thread...i would only add reference to a great book i listened to on tape driving to/from my home to pensacola fl. Seems Pi (the storyteller and author) was a hindi, but got into his head that the more religions he belonged to the greater his chances in the present and in the hereafter. He became a catholic then a muslim (at age 10); the only ones who became upset were the preacher-types who "converted" him.
In a kidnap sit, I would become one with them as well, join their "religion" whatever...your soul isn't hurt by this but may be in fact be better off, since you have one more path to salvation or wherever the experience may lead. i believe in one motto: do whatever enhances your chances. As the gent above said, communication with our fellow travelers on this metagasmacallistic world hurtling thru space and time is the energy that propels us.
As is often said, if no one was in the forest to hear the tree fall, then it never fell...thus spake Zarathuustra.
aloha!:cool4:

GMPM, Beer is on me!
 

Hey gmpm, great post. The way I look at it is that whatever you experience and you find to be true, or whatever you find that increases your potential and the potential of others to survive is indeed true for you and useful.

Communication is, reading, listening to the thoughts of others and sharing your thoughts or what you know to be true for you.

The "preachers" of the world are probably responsible for more death and destruction than most, think of the Spanish Conquistadors who laid waste to great civilizations that occupied present day Mexico, the Azec, all in the name of God. think of all the religious wars this small planet has suffered. Think of the current apparent persecution of those of "other" faiths occurring today.

I wonder if a person is never seen nor heard, like a tree falling in a forest and not being seen nor heard, if that person really lived?

Buddha civilized more than half the population of planet earth 600 years before Christ with these simple words: "Whatever is true for you is true because you yourself have experienced it to be true, and if you lose that, you have lost everything"

Before Buddha, the warlords were always fighting and that part of the world was very dangerous. So, some religions are beneficial for the survival of mankind, others are just destructive. To be able to know the difference requires learning about more than one religion. This is the doctrine of comparable magnitude, in logic, one must compare something with something else of comparable magnitude to understand that something.

IMPORTANT NOTE: For those looking to connect these words to kidnapping, just read the reports regarding why the Austrian couple was recently kidnapped in Tunisia, according to news reports it has to do with the Muslim/Israel land conflict. Might be "religious" motivated? OK?

Thanks gmpm, and enjoy your beer it is a pleasure to meet you. xfiltrate

kidnappings
 

As somebody who avoids bars I sort of stumbled into this one in the expectation of finding out more about said kidnappings . Duh. I agree wholeheartedly with Cornish Deity when he cited the Wikepedia info Re:Carl Sagan and the balony detector.. For the first while I did not clue in to this **remote viewing **¨¨ business and then it finally clicked: this is nothing more than a renaming of the old clairvoyant bit : BALONY. Never mind all the acompanying bafflegab trying to cast it as some sort of deep philosophical revelation or as - yet - undiscovered scientific facts.
If these supposed remote viewers were up to their stuff then why did they not clue in to the scene , gps coordinates and all, of the kidnappers when they were preparing their crime? Could have saved a mess of trouble, could have sent a NATO or USAF drone bomber to blast the bastards before they could do their nasties. As it is the supposed viewers appear to have come up with their information only after the fact, publicity reports etc., a lot of use that is.
Good to see that xfiltrate at least suggests thet the kidnappings **might be religious motivated ** Might ???, Only might? Get with it - all these fanatics are religious driven , trying to score browny points for themselves among their fellow cult/sect /political faction memebers. And this goes for not only the particular persuasion of this kidnappers bunch either. Religions basically are nothing more than the placebo effect of fanciful tales and fertility cults subscribed to by non critical thinkers .Their benefit :detriment ratio is close to being 1:1 optimistically. Religion does not equate to civilization though the two are not mutually exclusive. The civilised world has become moreso in direct proportion to the degree to which it has let go of the hardline, fanatical aspects of the religion-------- fill in the blank.

what you know to be true!
 

Well said Sjoerd.

What you KNOW to be true???? What the beep do we know, we know squat!!!

The certainty with which some groups (terrorists) know their ways to be true, might be part of the whole f%&@#$g problem!

As soon as you "know the truth", your position is locked and communication is finished.

Truth is contemporary.

Noel

What gmpm said is pretty much what our training for dealing with being taken hostage was.

comply with all instructions
keep yourself and others calm if possible
try talking to those holding you asking for water/food/ciggy anything to get them to think of you as another human.
dont fight back in any way you will only get yourself or those with hurt.
then its a case of waiting/hoping

Most kidnapping is for a purpose, they either want something or need the media attention for a cause.
Your chances of surviving a kidnap/hostage taking by an organised group are a lot higher than if its a single person. As then it tends to be a case of your there for their satisfaction only.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder
 

I like that, but if the tree is horizontal, more or less, then I believe that, in truth, it may have fallen over (a bit like my bike on occasions).
(Perhaps a deaf lumberjack had his way with the tree.......)

For Sjoerd - there are two other threads about the current kidnapping event in Africa (this is the bar version, even though it is part-entitled "a sober thought").

oh yeah, this is fun.... have another beer!
 

We think alike, Sjoerd Bakker, when I said similar things about religion, I was politely sent to the HU Bar, from a far more "reasonable " part of the HUBB. As for remote viewing being another name for clairvoyant we disagree there. Have you researched remote viewing and than compared it with the activities of the clairvoyants?

My particular interest is not the remote viewing protocols developed for the military by Stanford University, (consider that I have not read of any major university funded for establishing clairvoyant protocols) but my particular interest is availing myself of perceptual abilities from a point exterior to my physical body. That would be to say, as the soul or spiritual being I believe I am, being able to will myself (soul) where ever and take a look and report these perceptions via my body and mind to others. I have done this on occaision, but it is a lot of work.

I used the word "might" regarding the motivation of the hostage taking...only after I was admonished by the monitor regarding my "anti religious" posts on another thread.

Preventive action could have been possible and could have saved a "mess of trouble" I posted 5 days before any notice of a kidnapping in the case of the Austrians. I said immediate action necessary and that the couple were not wearing their own cloths. I was accurate regarding direction of travel, according to later published reports. the fact that action was not taken is probably that the decision makers for deployment of assistance think like you, and could not possibly allow for the fact that someone could know anything other then by means explainable by the known mechanics of the physical universe.

Did you ever think that just possible, governments with remote viewing capabilities might have other agendas than saving peoples lives? There is a big duh for you.\.

noel di pietro I agree with you the only constant is change. Truth predicts change. That is all there is to it and I agree with you that what we know to be true is constantly changing, but it's better than discussing who is going to win the world series, I think. So why do people get so upset when encountering beliefs that are different to theirs? Fear maybe? Look I have not attacked anyone on this thread, I am just saying what I know to be true for me. Perhaps if others would share their beliefs, about anything other than baseball (joke) , and stop attacking those who do, this bar would be a much more enjoyable place. xfiltrate

Blowing smoke???
 

How many participants in this blog HAVE BEEN KIDNAPPED?

If not, you are just guessing. :(

I want to hear from the experiences of others who have !!! :eek3:

Toby (charapa)

remote viewing
 

Sorry xfiltrate, we most definitely do not think alike . I did not want to waste a lot of my travel time on researching a lot of reports on this stuff so I googled it and came up with the dope on the Stanford study you mention. It is not a case of ¨ dont confuse me my mind is made up¨. I have been paying attention to this kind of stuff for many years. How about googling csicop and paranormal phenomena,Skeptical Inquirer (I see that detractors of this group are already on the predictable offensive of classifying it as a religion which then in their minds makes it fair game to go into attack mode and claim persecution).The great Randy also has something to say.
Aha, as I expected the word of Carl Sagan rings true : cold cut of milled meat and meat byproducts with added flour, spices and preservatives.
Simply because the author of the study managed through personal connections to get military funding and Stanford University student assistants does not prove the premise of the study or make it anymore valid. Nor does establishing¨** protocols** prove anything other than that a procedure to run the study by was set out to be followed .
For instance I could strike a comittee to develop protocols for what to do in the event the comic character Dogzilla ( The Buckets) is incarnated, flies to the moon and scribes a big smily =) face on the surface and then returns to earth to present me with a check for a billion dollars. Having the protocol ready for the event does not mean that such an event is likely to ever happen, is it ? Sounds official though.
That funding for such a study or protocol was obtained also proves nothing about the truth or validity of claims about the alleged practice.. The US Army department in charge of funding it has no doubt given out money to many other cases of questionable worth.The guys may not even be scientists , just got flummoxed by the jargon. Besides , anything to improve national security , right ? .
Likewise for Stanford´s participation; no doubt this is not the first or only flaky study to have made it past screening committees.It does however raise questions about the credibility of Stanfords commitment to real scientific research.But then again , many universities are in conflict with such principles when they actually participate in churning out clergy who go out and spread anti-scientific ideas .
Finally about the hint that governments may have sinister hidden agendas not concernd with public safety- this is nothing but the usual conspiracy theory which also underlies religions.i.e. everybody who is not part of the group must be treated with supicion, for they are out to destroy said group. Trust nobody but annointed members of the group. Be prepared to suffer and die for the special knowledge and principles which are only known by the true members. Martyrdom.
The actual case is more likely that the government needed a ruse, a cover to work in a program of remote electronic surveillance and intelligence gathering and this was a handy way to divert funding to it, unknown to the r.v. study crowd.Such cover tactics were a common technique during the cold war and still are. Just recently the US blew an out of control falling satelite to bits as a claimed safety measure . Just happened to be a good opportunity to test out anti - satelite weaponry. Now they can probably knock out competing gps signalling satelites . Get out the paper maps and compass.

It ain't kidnapping, but it sure ain't baseball either...
 

When I said we think alike, I was referring to the motivation for the recent kidnappings in Tunisia, nothing more.

You are absolutely right that the debunkers are discrediting remote viewing and that having protocols does not validate anything, except maybe if other applying the protocols have similar results. I have not stated differently, so why attack?

Here is the deal as I see it. I stated earlier it is only when the human spirit or soul can be measured and described scientifically, in some duplicable manner, that the abilities of the soul or spirit, independent of the body and mind, will enter the realm of science as is accepted today. I have not once claimed anything different.

What I have claimed is that we as human beings have perceptually abilities that cannot be accounted for scientifically as having been perceived by the scientific definitions of a human body or a human mind.

Example, we all know that simply observing might alter the observed, if you have any background in science you know this to be true. But, the physics boys refuse to accept a definition of space as "viewpoint of dimension" and get more and more bent out of shape each time a smaller molecular particle is discovered because with each new discovery more and more space is also discovered. Einstein had it right when he described "strangeness at a distance" as a way of describing molecular changes occurring in similar molecular structures far removed from the molecular structures at hand being observed.

If you want to continue this conversation and you may not as your travel may be considered more valuable, I understand, but if you want to continue, and you have no knowledge of "strangeness at a distance" as reported first by Einstein and is now accepted science, please google that or talk to your local molecular physicist.

You see, even accepted science that is observable, but not understood gets by the screening committees, and I look at remote viewing in terms of having duplicatable and observable results that are not yet understood. And as I have previously stated will not be understood until scientists can measure and describe a human soul.

Now, regarding black project funding and your idea that the recent shoot down was simply a test to be sure we can knock out the gps systems at will, is really outdated. The reality is we have no need to knock out gps systems, we have been altering gps data for years, much to the chagrin of our local enemies, who cannot seem to keep up with us, or alter ours, so they are the ones needing shoot down capacity.

I am not endorsing any religion, I encourage people to look at all religions and take from each that which seems true to them. I personally believe in a soul or spirit and believe, I am a spiritual being and I do have perceptual abilities that cannot be accounted for via the known and scientifically accepted perceptual abilities of a human body and mind. Perhaps it is only my belief that enables me to have these abilities, but I'm not complaining nor trying to defend, just feeling good that I do.

I understand you do not have similar abilities and would recommend that you know you do, and from that point of view see if you do or not.

And also know i have not claimed anything beyond the what I have claimed, so please stop attacking claims I have never made. You do not have to debunk me, I have claimed nothing in terms of science and been very careful to state none of what is true for me will be "science" until scientists figure a way to measure the human soul. My belief is, the human soul or spirit has no matter, energy, space or time, so it might be a very long wait. xfiltrate.

For those who want to know
 

I discovered the HU Bar after a comment was made to me by a well meaning Hubber. He said, after reading my posts on another thread, regarding a hostage taking in Tunisia, that my comments based upon my remote viewing of the unreported operational and locational scenes surrounding the missing couple might more appropriately be posted here. I took that advice.

Many, even here, believe that any abilities unexplainable by current science is forbidden and those who claim those abilities are insane, even if their abilities are real.

Here is a book written by a legally blind biker, who rode the foothills of LA for thirty five years.

He also is a scientist and one of original Stanford scientists that established the remote viewing programs for the military and the CIA.

Russell Targ's "Do You See What I See?" includes instructions describing how to remote view. For those who want to check out remote viewing for themselves I suggest reading it. Here is info about the book.

Do You See What I See?
Memoirs of a Blind Biker
by Russell Targ

Lasers and Love, ESP and the CIA, and the Meaning of Life

"Blessed with genius, creativity, and uncommon insight into what really matters, Russell Targ's odyssey is a hero's journey--a venture into the unknown and a return that makes all our lives richer. Targ is one of the great explorers of consciousness in the modern era. Do You See What I See? is the record of a life worth paying attention to."
-- Larry Dossey, MD, author of
The Extraordinary Healing Power of Ordinary Things
"Beautifully written, straight from the heart. Russell Targ is a great treasure of our time. He's a new breed of scientist who's not afraid to incorporate spirituality and deep intuition into his life and his conception of consciousness. I never miss a word of what Russell says. Read his story in this book and learn from him!"
-- Judith Orloff, MD, author of Positive Energy
"Russell Targ's autobiography stands as testament to the extraordinary capacities of human potential. From his role in the early development of the laser, to his systematic exploration of extrasensory perception, to the luminous insights of his spiritual vision--Do You See What I See? Memoirs of a Blind Biker is a fascinating read."
-- Michael Murphy, Cofounder and
Chairman of the Board, Esalen Institute
"Russell Targ is a pioneer, a character trait he has demonstrated in fields as diverse as laser physics, parapsychology, and windshear physics. It is the essence of his nature. Thus, it is not surprising that he has led a fascinating life, and his biography takes the reader on a wonderful tale of discovery. If you have an interest in how the new comes into being, Do You See What I See? will reward you bountifully with the kind of stories that bring science to life and show it as the extraordinary adventure those who live it know it to be."
-- Stephan A. Schwartz, author of Opening to the Infinite

Kidnapped remembered
 

It's worth remembering katherina & Peter. The trial of their kidnappers & muderers was meant to happen a couple of months ago.

[QUOTE=Sjoerd Bakker;182001] The great Randy also has something to say.

I think you mean the Amazing Randi. I haven't thought about him in years. He used to live across the street from me in New Jersey. He had the coolest house with secret rooms and stuff. He even showed me how he bends spoons and wires and stuff (and I promised when I was ten years old that I'd keep it a secret so don't even ask).

Hey xfiltrate- if you can prove that you can do this, Randi will give you a million bucks. Might be worth looking into.

Amazing Randy Exposed
 

Here is the lastest info I have regarding your former neighbor, The Amazing Randy.

Poulsen, Kevin (January 12, 2007). "Skeptic Revamps $1M Psychic Prize", Wired. Retrieved on 14 January 2007.

"Starting on April 1, 2007 only those with an already existing media profile and the backing of a reputable academic institution would be allowed to apply for the challenge."

Amazing Randy will not accept my challenge!

And, On January 4, 2008 it was announced that the million dollar challenge would be discontinued on March 6, 2010 in order to free up the money and resources for other uses.

Russal Targ who later worked with Ingo Swan and Harold Putoff, (acknowledged founder of the United States OFFICIAL "paid for with your tax dollars" remote viewing training programs) did accept the challenge...., they, together developed the remote viewing program for the US military and other United States government agencies...

I could not copy the entire article here due to Hubb 15,000 character restriction...


EXAMINING THE SKEPTICS
A Skeptical Look At James Randi (Amazing Randy)
By Michael Prescott

Michael Prescott is a well-known novelist based in the United States

© Copyright Michael Prescott

Michael Prescott
I chose to focus on Chapter Eight, (Randi's Film-Flam book)Randi's dissection of the experiments of Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff, two well-known parapsychologists. Randi calls them "the Laurel and Hardy of psi" and proceeds to argue that their experiments were a tissue of ineptitude, gullibility, and dishonesty.

The first thing I noticed was that Randi never gives any indication that Targ and Puthoff have any scientific credentials or accomplishments. The casual reader could be forgiven for assuming that they are not "real" scientists at all. For the record, Targ is a physicist credited with inventing the FM laser, the high-power gas-tranport laser, and the tunable plasma oscillator. Puthoff, also a physicist, invented the tunable infra-red laser and is widely known for his theoretical work on quantum vacuum states and the zero point field. (See The Field, by Lynne McTaggart, for an overview of Puthoff's work in quantum phyics.) If these two are "Laurel and Hardy," at least they come with good résumés. Randi, by contrast, has no scientific training.

Randi starts off by telling us how Targ and Puthoff took a professed psychic, Ingo Swann, to Stanford University, where, they said, Swann used his psychic abilities to affect the operation of a magnetometer. According to Randi, "the report was all wet." He knows this because he contacted Dr. Arthur Hebard, "the builder of the device, who was present and has excellent recollections of what took place." Hebard, Randi says disputes the Targ-Puthoff account. He is quoted as saying, "It's a lie. You can say it any way you want, but that's what I call a lie."

This is pretty compelling stuff. But is Randi's version of events accurate? Let's take a look.

First, he seems to make a rather basic error when he says that both Targ and Puthoff were present for this experiment. As best I can determine, Puthoff conducted the experiment, which took place in June, 1972, without Targ's assistance. Targ had met Puthoff prior to this time, but their work together apparently did not begin until a few months later.

Rogo writes, "There obviously exist several discrepancies between Dr Puthoff's views on what happened during this experiment, and what Randi claims Dr Hebard told him. So to clarify the matter, I decided to get in touch with Dr Hebard myself. I finally tracked him down at the Bell Telephone Laboratories in Murray Hill, New Jersey. He was very willing to discuss the Swann magnetometer demonstration with me, and professed to be very interested in parapsychology." Hebard's interest in the paranormal contradicts Randi's statement that Hebard, "not being a reader of far-out literature," was unaware of Targ and Puthoff's claims.

Rogo acknowledges that Hebard's account differs in some respects from Puthoff's. "Dr Hebard denied in no uncertain terms, however, Randi's claim that Swann was never asked to 'stop the field charge' being recorded from the magnetometer. He easily recalled that he had suggested that it would be a fascinating effect if Swann could produce it . . . which, of course, he actually did soon after the suggestion was made. Randi also directly quotes Dr Hebard as calling some of Targ and Puthoff's claims 'lies'. Dr Hebard was very annoyed by this claim since, as he explained to me, Randi had tried to get him to make this charge and he had refused. Dr Hebard later signed a statement to this effect for me." (Ellipsis in original.)

As for the discrepancies between Hebard's and Puthoff's accounts, Rogo reports that in a subsequent meeting with Puthoff, he was shown "the actual graphed print-outs given by the magnetometer during the Swann demonstrations. The records supported Dr Puthoff's contention more than they did Dr Hebard's."

So far, then, the best we can say is that Randi's criticism of Puthoff (and Targ, who apparently wasn't even involved in the magnetometer experiment) is far from the last word on the subject.

Randi proceeds to launch a comprehensive critique of Targ and Puthoff's article "Information Transmission under Conditions of Sensory Shielding," which appeared in the October 18, 1974, issue of the respected journal Nature, and which can be read here The article details experiments involving, among other participants, the professed psychic Uri Geller.


Randi does produce two individuals willing to go on the record - Charles Rebert and Leon Otis, both of whom were SRI psychologists. Rebert and Otis apparently disagreed with the Targ-Puthoff conclusions; indeed, Randi tells us that "a horrified Rebert also heard that Targ and Puthoff were going to proclaim these erroneous findings before Stanford University's psychology department, and he forbade such a blunder. The talk was canceled." But this only tells us that there was a dispute among the scientists at SRI. Rebert and Otis ran some unsuccessful tests with Geller and decided that he was a fraud. Targ and Puthoff ran what they regarded as successful tests and decided that, in some areas at least, Geller had legitimate psychic powers. Nothing in Randi's text establishes which conclusion was correct.

Randi goes on to report that after he had criticized Geller in an earlier book, Targ and Puthoff "issued a 'fact sheet' in rebuttal to twenty-four" of his points. According to Randi, "This attempt was a failure, and in response to one claim that the SRI tests were done under tight controls, a scientist who was there declared flatly, 'This is b.s. As far as my colleagues and I are concerned, none of the experiments met accepted scientific protocol.' I will not burden you," Randi concludes, "with the other twenty-three points; they are as easily demolished."

Well, hold on. A quotation from yet another anonymous source ("a scientist who was there") hardly constitutes a demolition job, especially when the scientist's argument consists of an unsupported assertion ("none of the experiments met accepted scientific protocol"). Personally, I would have welcomed the "burden" of the other twenty-three points and of Randi's detailed and carefully documented rebuttals.


By now, I felt that Randi's credibility was in doubt. He had committed careless errors of fact, had quite possibly misrepresented and misquoted Hebard, and had made unsupported assertions based on rumors. I wondered what Targ and Puthoff have to say about all this. The only responses from either of them that I could find online were part of a long essay by Winston Wu, Debunking Common Skeptical Arguments Against Paranormal and Psychic Phenomena Winston Wu Debunks the Skeptics , the relevant part is Argument 18 Puthoff is quoted as saying the following:

"In Flim- Flam, [Randi] gives something like 28 debunking points, if my memory serves me correctly. I had the opportunity to confront Randi at a Parapsychology Association conference with proof in hand, and in tape-recorded interaction he admitted he was wrong on all the points. He even said he would correct them for the upcoming paperback being published by the CSICOP group. (He did not.) ...

"The truth of the matter is that none of Randi's claimed suspected inadequate controls actually had anything to do with the experiments, which of course Randi was not there to know of. This has been independently reported by Scott Rogo somewhere in the literature, who came out specifically to check each of Randi's guesses about inadequate controls and found them inapplicable under the conditions in which the tests were conducted. In fact, all of Randi's suggestions were amateurish compared to the sophisticated steps we took, suspecting as we did everything from magician's tricks to an Israeli intelligence scam....

"In case one thinks that it was just a case of our opinions vs. his opinions," Puthoff continues, "we chose for the list of incorrect points only those that could be independently verified. Examples: [Randi] said that in our Nature paper we verified Geller's metal-bending. Go to the paper, and you see that we said we were not able to obtain evidence for this. He said that a film of the Geller experiment made at SRI by famed photographer Zev Pressman was not made by him, but by us and we just put his name on it. We showed up with an affidavit by Pressman saying that indeed he did make the film."

There is no way for me to verify Puthoff's statement that he tape-recorded Randi's concession of defeat "on all the points." This has to stand as an unsupported assertion, just like Randi's own arguments. But it is possible to take a closer look at Puthoff's last two claims.

First, Puthoff insists that his and Targ's Nature article does not endorse Geller's alleged metal-bending. This is accurate, as you can see for yourself by reading the article www.heart7.net/mcf/hambone/g3.html . Puthoff and Targ write, "It has been widely reported that Geller has demonstrated the ability to bend metal by paranormal means. Although metal bending by Geller has been observed in our laboratory, we have not been able to combine such observations with adequately controlled experiments to obtain data sufficient to support the paranormal hypothesis."

On the other hand, I have not found any statement by Randi in Flim-Flam to the effect that Targ and Puthoff "had verified Geller's metal-bending." He attacks the Targ-Puthoff experiments on other grounds. Of course, he may have made this statement elsewhere, but as far as I can tell, Puthoff is rebutting a point Randi never made.

How about Puthoff's second claim, regarding the SRI film? Randi certainly does make this an issue in Flim-Flam. Targ and Puthoff, he writes, "appended to [the film] - without his knowledge or permission - the name of Zev Pressman, the SRI photographer who had shot the film.... Pressman, said Targ and Puthoff, was present during [a particular series of] experiments. Not so, according to Pressman.... Most damning of all, Pressman said to others at SRI that he had been told the successful [tests] were done after he (Pressman) had gone home for the day. So it appears the film was a reenactment ... Pressman did not even know that Targ and Puthoff were issuing a statement, he did not sign it, and he did not give them permission to use his name. He knew nothing about most of what appeared under his name, and he disagreed with the part that he did know about." (Italics in original.)

Here we have Randi saying that this photographer, Pressman, was duped and used by the experimenters, while Puthoff says that Pressman signed an affidavit swearing that "indeed he did make the film." Is there any way to resolve this?

Playfair writes, "[Randi] turned, in a later book, Flim-Flam, to the professional photographer who had made the film, a Stanford employee named Zev Pressman, with an extraordinary series of unfounded allegations....

"Pressman flatly denied all of Randi's allegations in two public statements, neither of which was even mentioned in the 1982 re-issue of the book. 'I made the film,' said Pressman, 'and my name appeared with my full knowledge and permission . . . Nothing was restaged or specially created . . . I have never met nor spoken to nor corresponded with Randi. The 'revelations' he attributes to me are pure fiction.'"

It is true that no mention is made of these "two public statements" in Flim-Flam's 1982 edition - the edition I own.

For corroborating testimony, I turned once again to the indefatigable Scott Rogo, who investigated this claim just as he had looked into Dr. Hebard's testimony and the infamous hole in the wall.

Rogo writes, "I spoke directly with Mr Pressman on 5 January 1981 and he was quite interested when I told him about Randi's book. He denied that he had spoken to the magician. When I read him the section of Randi's book dealing with his alleged 'expose' of the Targ-Puthoff film, he became very vexed. He firmly backed up the authenticity of the film, told me how he had taken it on the spot, and labeled Randi's allegation as a total fabrication. (His own descriptive language was a little more colourful!)" Rogo also reports that Puthoff showed him Pressman's signed affidavit.

How could Randi's conversation with Pressman be so different from Rogo's? The truth is, Randi does not appear to have had a conversation with Pressman at all. Take another look at the quote from Flim-Flam. The key words are: "Most damning of all, Pressman said to others at SRI ..."

Evidently, then, Randi's source is not Pressman himself, but unnamed "others at SRI" who passed on this information to Randi. Another round of Chinese Whispers, it seems.

Before I began this modest online research project for a rainy afternoon, I had mixed feelings about Randi. I saw him as closed-minded and supercilious, but I also assumed he was sincere and, by his own lights, honest. Now, having explored his contribution to the Targ-Puthoff controversy in some detail, I am thoroughly unimpressed. Randi comes across as a bullying figure, eager to attack and ridicule, willing to distort and even invent evidence - in short, the sort of person who will do anything to prevail in a debate, whether by fair means or foul.

The title of his book thus takes on a new and unintended meaning. From what I can tell, James Randi really is the Flim-Flam man.

Michael Prescott is a New York Times bestselling author. His published works include: Comes the Dark, Stealing Faces, The Shadow Hunter, Last Breath, Next Victim and In Dark Places. His latest book is Dangerous Games

If you have any comments or suggestions on this website please email editor@skepticalinvestigations.org

Copyright © The Association for Skeptical Investigations

I've felt safer in Bogota than I have in Birmingham and safer in Sau Paulo than I have in Southhampton. These are places that people say im sure to be be shot on site in ! :thumbdown:

The world we live in is a dangerous one and you need common sense wherever you venture.

I know far more people who have been mugged and beaten up in 1st world counties than i do in supposedly 3rd world ones.

Keep you eyes open and second guess people who are just too helpful !!

If it smells fishy, theres probably a fisherman about....

My gosh!
 

Southampton is without doubt the tamest place I have ever lived!

That is exactly my point my friend !!

Most governments stand is not to pay ransom money...and rightly so.
Apart from that it is all down to your kidnappers so we cannot speculate on what if`s.

Just pray a lot....I find that works. :clap:

Steve

Back in the Saddle, er, Back at the Bar
 

It has been exactly one year and one week since anyone contributed to this thread - Being kidnapped. A sober thought ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)

The thread has been very controversial, even a little antagonistic, and perhaps inspirational, but in my humble opinion, it has been very educational and interesting.

The thread evolved quickly into areas that did not fit within the ruling intellectual paradigm, probably ruffled some feathers and grew a new feather or two for some.

Being kidnapped is still a sober thought that, one year and one week later, still haunts some adventure motorcyclists.

I am revisiting this thread, not as an out cast, one exiled from another thread, although that has very recently happened again, but to ask all with interest in those who have recently been kidnapped in Mali and Mauritania (1 French, 3 Spaniards and 2 Italians) to follow the advice of steveindenmark (previous post) "Just pray a lot....." he has found that prayer works.

And please remember one of my countrymen " in true American fashion the man fought back furiously as they tried to kidnap him, when that failed they shot him in the head....... Chris Leggett (USA) and a Edwin Dryer (UK) who were both recently executed in Mauritania and Mali respectively.

Kidnapping is indeed a sober thought, I will also pray that someday the ruling intellectual paradigm, will consider new theories proposed by alternative research methods before they are *fait accompli mainstream news.

* fait accompli ... a thing that has already happened or been decided before those affected hear about it, leaving them with no option but to accept.

There is nothing to lose and a lot to gain.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Christmas a time to celebrate..... Gaddafi???
 

Amigos, and undecideds at the HU Bar,

I just noticed that Libya's Gaddafi really knows how to PARTY. According to this Reuters article, this past september....he went all out for his 40th anniversary of rule.... a 6 day bash, for those who want to see the pictures that accompanied the article, go here: the Reuters article is copied below.

Libya prepares for six-day Gaddafi celebrations / PHOTO [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]

Now, what does this fette in libya have to do with being kidnapped or anything as sober as what the hostages are experiencing right now?


Here are my thoughts. If you scroll down to the last paragraph of the article... you will note that "hot air balloons will be floating overhead while the Tuaregs display 1,000 camels."

Could the hot air balloons/small zeppelins be the new camels of the desert?

After all, the jet stream does sweep across Africa from Mauritania to Libya.

What if, a 4X4 is used by "locals" for the initial attack and taking of hostages from a relief convoy, or perhaps a from a private vehicle, the hostages are shoved into the 4X4 and quickly driven into the desert.

Then the hostages are transferred/sold to others with a hot air balloon/or something like a small zeppelin, possibly rigged for stealthy night flying.....

The 4X4 is buried in a pre-readied crater in the desert sand? The 4X4 tracks just end, as was the case when the 3 Spaniards were recently taken.

Would those sent to rescue the hostages think to look for a buried 4X4???

Meanwhile, while the air force, army and navy are mobilizing the hot air balloon lands at a "safe camp" where the hostages are held waiting other prearranged transport from a point not in the original area of the search.

Please remember, resources for rescue operations might be very limited initially and they will be focused on the immediate area of the attack and surrounding desert.

Perhaps the local 4X4 kidnappers also have camels waiting nearby for their escape.

At the end of the Gaddafi article, are some links to information on zeppelins currently operating in Africa.

Any thoughts from the HU Bar?

Eat , Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

www.Xfiltrate.com - Professional Motorcycle Parking - Professional Motorcycle Parking

Libya prepares for six-day Gaddafi celebrations / PHOTO
Libya will start marking 40th anniversary of Gaddafi ruling as military bands, 400 dancers, aerobatic planes are set to electrify a hot and drowsy Tripoli.
Tuesday, 01 September 2009 11:46

Libya will start marking 40th anniversary of Gaddafi ruling as military bands, 400 dancers, aerobatic planes and fireworks are set to electrify a hot and drowsy Tripoli from Tuesday.

Muammar Gaddafi throws Libya's biggest party.

The six days of celebrations across the north African country were designed to get the message across to the world that the long-isolated oil exporter was open again for business after years of heavy sanctions, organisers said.

Libya has invited dozens of Western heads of state but European leaders are expected to stay away, including Italy's Silvio Berlusconi who visited Libya on Sunday to mark the first anniversary of a Libyan-Italian friendship agreement.

President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela will attend and a bevy of African leaders including Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe and Sudan's Omar Hassan al-Bashir, are expected to be in town for an African Union summit.

"Libya is opening up to the world -- that is the basic message," said Philippe Skaff, who heads the team coordinating the centrepiece celebration event. It includes companies from France and Britain.

"This is the first time they actually received thousands of foreigners with open arms. They are granting visas for this like they've never done before," he said.

But the United States and Britain angry at the "hero's welcome" that Tripoli gave a former Libyan agent who was freed by Scotland last month from a life sentence for the Lockerbie bombing that killed 270 people.

Gaddafi's rule

At home, political parties remain banned and Gaddafi staunchly defends his system of grass roots government by town-hall committee.

But foreign companies are back searching for oil or vying for contracts to build roads, railways, phone networks and schools.

As Tripoli counts down to its six-day party, lasers beam out into the Mediterranean through the hot, humid night air from the roofs of new hotels built to cater for the influx of foreigners.

Lights adorn buildings across the city, walls in the old town have been freshly whitewashed and rows of green Libyan flags flutter over its dusty streets.

Portraits of Gaddafi adorn billboards and buildings across the city, his features sometimes traced out in colourful neon lights. Two new oil tankers loom over the corniche in a statement of Libya's growing might as an energy producer.

The organisers say hundreds of thousands are expected in the capital on Tuesday night for a three-hour show tracing Libya's history and offering a glimpse of the future. They say its scale will rival an Olympic opening ceremony.

In the following days, hot air balloons will rise over the desert and Tuaregs will hold a festival featuring 1,000 camels. Libya's ancient coastal cities of Leptis Magna and Sabratha will come right up to date with sound and light displays.
Reuters

De Beers Searches for Diamonds By Blimp

OVERSEAS TRANSPORT OF A ZEPPELIN BY

Modern Airships - De Beers Zeppelin heading for South Africa

Hostage Taking impacts Festival in the Desert
 

This December 27, 2009 article gives an overview of sorts, regarding kidnappings in Africa, and how the Festival in the Desert has been impacted...

Seems to me, that beyond the hostage for prisoner exchange there is also a financial angle, on the part of (AQIM) I did not find any mention of the Latin American drug cartels involvement, which I am sure will also impact the Festival in the Desert and the Sahara.

I got an idea, perhaps some acceptable bright diplomat and translator, might set up a conversation between the prisoners that Spain holds that (AQIM) wants released, and the hostages, and this conversation could be broadcast to the world.

I, for one, would very much like to hear what each group says. It is only through open communication that the why of the conflict can be understood and then, and only then, can workable solutions be created and implemented.

When negotiations are left to governments, sometimes potential solutions are implemented that do not have the best interest of the majority of the people involved, but, strangely, more often than not, a financial angle too.

Here is the article:

Home / Headlines / Blood in the Sand - Media Monitors Network (MMN)

Drug smuggling in the Sahara articles here: (Quote from second article perhaps supporting my "view" that "arial transport might be part of hostage taking in the Sahara)

"According to the complaint, Toure said his organization would use Land Rovers to drive the load across the desert to Morocco, and he described "two different transportation routes, one through Algeria and Libya and the other through Algeria and Morocco." He told the informant that his group "provides protection for planes that land in their area, including planes from Colombia," the document said."

The Associated Press: Feds: Arrests in Africa link al-Qaida and drugs

U.S. prosecution links drugs to terrorism -- latimes.com

BBC News - US arrests three Africans in 'al-Qaeda cocaine sting'

Sahara new centre for drugs trading, UN warns | World news | guardian.co.uk

and from April: Al-Qaeda Sahara Network Spurs U.S. to Train Chad, Mali Forces - Bloomberg.com

Hey anyone know anything about Hovercrafts? Range, speed, etc.?

Eat, Drink, and Be Careful xfiltrate

"If this is the new frontline in the war in terror, no one told the locals." :thumbup1:

Although hot air balloons may work in one direction, they're a big lump to fold up and take back again! And a little vulnerable to pot shots!
A hovercraft big enough for even just 6 people would be fairly big, very noisy and drink a lot more fuel than something with wheels? Would be fun though :)
I wonder in what sense the tyre tracks disappeared? The ones being followed joined too many others to be followed, or even reached ground too hard to show tracks? Unless its a truck with unfolding wings?

BBC NEWS | Africa | By flying car from London to Timbuktu

Frontline? What Frontline?
 

Grizzly7, I suggest this "sober" thread could become a dog and pony show, that could rival, that other web site ? uh, Average rider or something like that, but given the very serious nature of our given topic, I will seriously address your comments.

For those who contribute to HUBB threads, by correcting those who wander off topic, I will begin by explaining that often I find it necessary to use, as example, a seemingly unrelated analogy to the topic.

First I will address your comment:

"If this is the new frontline in the war in terror, no one told the locals."

Perhaps knowing that until very recently less that 20% "of the locals" , by accurate survey, that is local adult US citizens did not know that the the Federal Reserve, created in 1913 - consisting of 12 District Banks, including the Central Bank of the United States is a privately held off shore corporation.

Yet the "Fed" has the potential to control the economy of the United States and impact the economy of the world.

The "Fed's," demand for billions of US taxpayers dollars for bailing out corporations that are "to big to fail" has come into public view during the 2009 financial crisis, and the United States Congress is finally struggling to pass legislation that will require a very watered down audit of the "Fed."

Survival itself consumes the attention of most locals worldwide, it is only when entities like the "Fed" in the United States and "terrorism" in West Africa impede the locals potential to survive that they become aware.

Frontline in the war on terror or not, I do not know, I am more interested in contributing information that might increase the survival potential of current hostages, and prevent more kidnapping.

"Although hot air balloons may work in one direction, they're a big lump to fold up and take back again! And a little vulnerable to pot shots!"

The nomads of the desert just leave behind or bury for later use objects not easily transported. The leave behind, or destroy concept might be unfamiliar to westerners, but to those who travel the trade routes through the Sahara, I suspect, have less a need to "keep" material goods, especially if they have been procured, as a tool, for a well paid job.

Covert operations with hot air balloons would logically be carried out at night, I might add that the Spaniards and the Italians were taken at night.

If the police, army etc suspect hostages might be on board a hot air balloon, this "human shield" factor might limit their option of using deadly force.

As for the hover craft, thanks for the info, a flying car might be more logical for rapid hostage transport, and thank you very much for the BBC news article.

The article I read, reported, the tracks just stopped, no mention of intermingling with other tracks, of course there might be much lost in the various translation. The winds of the Sahara might also cover tracts, or desert experts might know how to make tracks in desert sands disappear.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate

Bunkers in the Sahara
 

If you are following the this thread or the Sahara hostage taking threads might want to google "bunkers Sahara" sample below

Terrorism – Al-Qaeda Building Bunkers in the Sahara : Homeland Security News

It is interesting to note that my "third party" kidnappers prediction does not stand alone, there is now, also a rash of articles regarding "bunkers in the Sahara" that gives weight to my "caves/tunnels" prediction.

While we are still waiting for the "hot air ballon/blimp/Zeppelin" articles validating my prediction, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

We will return BsAs in a couple weeks, we just had a visit at our ranch from a Hubber out of Chile on his BMW, Hubbers in northern Arizona, USA needing a place to stay -- PM us

Been too busy to post, but "back in the saddle" soon. Listened to Shirkira's "Waka Waka" ? It is the Official African World Cup song and it has many references to Argentina - might be because Shakira is dating an Argentine??? directly below...

YouTube - Shakira - Waka Waka (This Time for Africa) (The Official 2010 FIFA ...

Xfiltrate