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What gmpm said is pretty much what our training for dealing with being taken hostage was.
comply with all instructions
keep yourself and others calm if possible
try talking to those holding you asking for water/food/ciggy anything to get them to think of you as another human.
dont fight back in any way you will only get yourself or those with hurt.
then its a case of waiting/hoping
Most kidnapping is for a purpose, they either want something or need the media attention for a cause.
Your chances of surviving a kidnap/hostage taking by an organised group are a lot higher than if its a single person. As then it tends to be a case of your there for their satisfaction only.
As is often said, if no one was in the forest to hear the tree fall, then it never fell...thus spake Zarathuustra.
I like that, but if the tree is horizontal, more or less, then I believe that, in truth, it may have fallen over (a bit like my bike on occasions).
(Perhaps a deaf lumberjack had his way with the tree.......)
For Sjoerd - there are two other threads about the current kidnapping event in Africa (this is the bar version, even though it is part-entitled "a sober thought").
We think alike, Sjoerd Bakker, when I said similar things about religion, I was politely sent to the HU Bar, from a far more "reasonable " part of the HUBB. As for remote viewing being another name for clairvoyant we disagree there. Have you researched remote viewing and than compared it with the activities of the clairvoyants?
My particular interest is not the remote viewing protocols developed for the military by Stanford University, (consider that I have not read of any major university funded for establishing clairvoyant protocols) but my particular interest is availing myself of perceptual abilities from a point exterior to my physical body. That would be to say, as the soul or spiritual being I believe I am, being able to will myself (soul) where ever and take a look and report these perceptions via my body and mind to others. I have done this on occaision, but it is a lot of work.
I used the word "might" regarding the motivation of the hostage taking...only after I was admonished by the monitor regarding my "anti religious" posts on another thread.
Preventive action could have been possible and could have saved a "mess of trouble" I posted 5 days before any notice of a kidnapping in the case of the Austrians. I said immediate action necessary and that the couple were not wearing their own cloths. I was accurate regarding direction of travel, according to later published reports. the fact that action was not taken is probably that the decision makers for deployment of assistance think like you, and could not possibly allow for the fact that someone could know anything other then by means explainable by the known mechanics of the physical universe.
Did you ever think that just possible, governments with remote viewing capabilities might have other agendas than saving peoples lives? There is a big duh for you.\.
noel di pietro I agree with you the only constant is change. Truth predicts change. That is all there is to it and I agree with you that what we know to be true is constantly changing, but it's better than discussing who is going to win the world series, I think. So why do people get so upset when encountering beliefs that are different to theirs? Fear maybe? Look I have not attacked anyone on this thread, I am just saying what I know to be true for me. Perhaps if others would share their beliefs, about anything other than baseball (joke) , and stop attacking those who do, this bar would be a much more enjoyable place. xfiltrate
Sorry xfiltrate, we most definitely do not think alike . I did not want to waste a lot of my travel time on researching a lot of reports on this stuff so I googled it and came up with the dope on the Stanford study you mention. It is not a case of ¨ dont confuse me my mind is made up¨. I have been paying attention to this kind of stuff for many years. How about googling csicop and paranormal phenomena,Skeptical Inquirer (I see that detractors of this group are already on the predictable offensive of classifying it as a religion which then in their minds makes it fair game to go into attack mode and claim persecution).The great Randy also has something to say.
Aha, as I expected the word of Carl Sagan rings true : cold cut of milled meat and meat byproducts with added flour, spices and preservatives.
Simply because the author of the study managed through personal connections to get military funding and Stanford University student assistants does not prove the premise of the study or make it anymore valid. Nor does establishing¨** protocols** prove anything other than that a procedure to run the study by was set out to be followed .
For instance I could strike a comittee to develop protocols for what to do in the event the comic character Dogzilla ( The Buckets) is incarnated, flies to the moon and scribes a big smily =) face on the surface and then returns to earth to present me with a check for a billion dollars. Having the protocol ready for the event does not mean that such an event is likely to ever happen, is it ? Sounds official though.
That funding for such a study or protocol was obtained also proves nothing about the truth or validity of claims about the alleged practice.. The US Army department in charge of funding it has no doubt given out money to many other cases of questionable worth.The guys may not even be scientists , just got flummoxed by the jargon. Besides , anything to improve national security , right ? .
Likewise for Stanford´s participation; no doubt this is not the first or only flaky study to have made it past screening committees.It does however raise questions about the credibility of Stanfords commitment to real scientific research.But then again , many universities are in conflict with such principles when they actually participate in churning out clergy who go out and spread anti-scientific ideas .
Finally about the hint that governments may have sinister hidden agendas not concernd with public safety- this is nothing but the usual conspiracy theory which also underlies religions.i.e. everybody who is not part of the group must be treated with supicion, for they are out to destroy said group. Trust nobody but annointed members of the group. Be prepared to suffer and die for the special knowledge and principles which are only known by the true members. Martyrdom.
The actual case is more likely that the government needed a ruse, a cover to work in a program of remote electronic surveillance and intelligence gathering and this was a handy way to divert funding to it, unknown to the r.v. study crowd.Such cover tactics were a common technique during the cold war and still are. Just recently the US blew an out of control falling satelite to bits as a claimed safety measure . Just happened to be a good opportunity to test out anti - satelite weaponry. Now they can probably knock out competing gps signalling satelites . Get out the paper maps and compass.
It ain't kidnapping, but it sure ain't baseball either...
When I said we think alike, I was referring to the motivation for the recent kidnappings in Tunisia, nothing more.
You are absolutely right that the debunkers are discrediting remote viewing and that having protocols does not validate anything, except maybe if other applying the protocols have similar results. I have not stated differently, so why attack?
Here is the deal as I see it. I stated earlier it is only when the human spirit or soul can be measured and described scientifically, in some duplicable manner, that the abilities of the soul or spirit, independent of the body and mind, will enter the realm of science as is accepted today. I have not once claimed anything different.
What I have claimed is that we as human beings have perceptually abilities that cannot be accounted for scientifically as having been perceived by the scientific definitions of a human body or a human mind.
Example, we all know that simply observing might alter the observed, if you have any background in science you know this to be true. But, the physics boys refuse to accept a definition of space as "viewpoint of dimension" and get more and more bent out of shape each time a smaller molecular particle is discovered because with each new discovery more and more space is also discovered. Einstein had it right when he described "strangeness at a distance" as a way of describing molecular changes occurring in similar molecular structures far removed from the molecular structures at hand being observed.
If you want to continue this conversation and you may not as your travel may be considered more valuable, I understand, but if you want to continue, and you have no knowledge of "strangeness at a distance" as reported first by Einstein and is now accepted science, please google that or talk to your local molecular physicist.
You see, even accepted science that is observable, but not understood gets by the screening committees, and I look at remote viewing in terms of having duplicatable and observable results that are not yet understood. And as I have previously stated will not be understood until scientists can measure and describe a human soul.
Now, regarding black project funding and your idea that the recent shoot down was simply a test to be sure we can knock out the gps systems at will, is really outdated. The reality is we have no need to knock out gps systems, we have been altering gps data for years, much to the chagrin of our local enemies, who cannot seem to keep up with us, or alter ours, so they are the ones needing shoot down capacity.
I am not endorsing any religion, I encourage people to look at all religions and take from each that which seems true to them. I personally believe in a soul or spirit and believe, I am a spiritual being and I do have perceptual abilities that cannot be accounted for via the known and scientifically accepted perceptual abilities of a human body and mind. Perhaps it is only my belief that enables me to have these abilities, but I'm not complaining nor trying to defend, just feeling good that I do.
I understand you do not have similar abilities and would recommend that you know you do, and from that point of view see if you do or not.
And also know i have not claimed anything beyond the what I have claimed, so please stop attacking claims I have never made. You do not have to debunk me, I have claimed nothing in terms of science and been very careful to state none of what is true for me will be "science" until scientists figure a way to measure the human soul. My belief is, the human soul or spirit has no matter, energy, space or time, so it might be a very long wait. xfiltrate.
I discovered the HU Bar after a comment was made to me by a well meaning Hubber. He said, after reading my posts on another thread, regarding a hostage taking in Tunisia, that my comments based upon my remote viewing of the unreported operational and locational scenes surrounding the missing couple might more appropriately be posted here. I took that advice.
Many, even here, believe that any abilities unexplainable by current science is forbidden and those who claim those abilities are insane, even if their abilities are real.
Here is a book written by a legally blind biker, who rode the foothills of LA for thirty five years.
He also is a scientist and one of original Stanford scientists that established the remote viewing programs for the military and the CIA.
Russell Targ's "Do You See What I See?" includes instructions describing how to remote view. For those who want to check out remote viewing for themselves I suggest reading it. Here is info about the book.
Do You See What I See?
Memoirs of a Blind Biker
by Russell Targ
Lasers and Love, ESP and the CIA, and the Meaning of Life
"Blessed with genius, creativity, and uncommon insight into what really matters, Russell Targ's odyssey is a hero's journey--a venture into the unknown and a return that makes all our lives richer. Targ is one of the great explorers of consciousness in the modern era. Do You See What I See? is the record of a life worth paying attention to."
-- Larry Dossey, MD, author of
The Extraordinary Healing Power of Ordinary Things
"Beautifully written, straight from the heart. Russell Targ is a great treasure of our time. He's a new breed of scientist who's not afraid to incorporate spirituality and deep intuition into his life and his conception of consciousness. I never miss a word of what Russell says. Read his story in this book and learn from him!"
-- Judith Orloff, MD, author of Positive Energy
"Russell Targ's autobiography stands as testament to the extraordinary capacities of human potential. From his role in the early development of the laser, to his systematic exploration of extrasensory perception, to the luminous insights of his spiritual vision--Do You See What I See? Memoirs of a Blind Biker is a fascinating read."
-- Michael Murphy, Cofounder and
Chairman of the Board, Esalen Institute
"Russell Targ is a pioneer, a character trait he has demonstrated in fields as diverse as laser physics, parapsychology, and windshear physics. It is the essence of his nature. Thus, it is not surprising that he has led a fascinating life, and his biography takes the reader on a wonderful tale of discovery. If you have an interest in how the new comes into being, Do You See What I See? will reward you bountifully with the kind of stories that bring science to life and show it as the extraordinary adventure those who live it know it to be."
-- Stephan A. Schwartz, author of Opening to the Infinite
[QUOTE=Sjoerd Bakker;182001] The great Randy also has something to say.
I think you mean the Amazing Randi. I haven't thought about him in years. He used to live across the street from me in New Jersey. He had the coolest house with secret rooms and stuff. He even showed me how he bends spoons and wires and stuff (and I promised when I was ten years old that I'd keep it a secret so don't even ask).
Hey xfiltrate- if you can prove that you can do this, Randi will give you a million bucks. Might be worth looking into.
Here is the lastest info I have regarding your former neighbor, The Amazing Randy.
Poulsen, Kevin (January 12, 2007). "Skeptic Revamps $1M Psychic Prize", Wired. Retrieved on 14 January 2007.
"Starting on April 1, 2007 only those with an already existing media profile and the backing of a reputable academic institution would be allowed to apply for the challenge."
Amazing Randy will not accept my challenge!
And, On January 4, 2008 it was announced that the million dollar challenge would be discontinued on March 6, 2010 in order to free up the money and resources for other uses.
Russal Targ who later worked with Ingo Swan and Harold Putoff, (acknowledged founder of the United States OFFICIAL "paid for with your tax dollars" remote viewing training programs) did accept the challenge...., they, together developed the remote viewing program for the US military and other United States government agencies...
I could not copy the entire article here due to Hubb 15,000 character restriction...
EXAMINING THE SKEPTICS
A Skeptical Look At James Randi (Amazing Randy)
By Michael Prescott
Michael Prescott is a well-known novelist based in the United States
I chose to focus on Chapter Eight, (Randi's Film-Flam book)Randi's dissection of the experiments of Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff, two well-known parapsychologists. Randi calls them "the Laurel and Hardy of psi" and proceeds to argue that their experiments were a tissue of ineptitude, gullibility, and dishonesty.
The first thing I noticed was that Randi never gives any indication that Targ and Puthoff have any scientific credentials or accomplishments. The casual reader could be forgiven for assuming that they are not "real" scientists at all. For the record, Targ is a physicist credited with inventing the FM laser, the high-power gas-tranport laser, and the tunable plasma oscillator. Puthoff, also a physicist, invented the tunable infra-red laser and is widely known for his theoretical work on quantum vacuum states and the zero point field. (See The Field, by Lynne McTaggart, for an overview of Puthoff's work in quantum phyics.) If these two are "Laurel and Hardy," at least they come with good résumés. Randi, by contrast, has no scientific training.
Randi starts off by telling us how Targ and Puthoff took a professed psychic, Ingo Swann, to Stanford University, where, they said, Swann used his psychic abilities to affect the operation of a magnetometer. According to Randi, "the report was all wet." He knows this because he contacted Dr. Arthur Hebard, "the builder of the device, who was present and has excellent recollections of what took place." Hebard, Randi says disputes the Targ-Puthoff account. He is quoted as saying, "It's a lie. You can say it any way you want, but that's what I call a lie."
This is pretty compelling stuff. But is Randi's version of events accurate? Let's take a look.
First, he seems to make a rather basic error when he says that both Targ and Puthoff were present for this experiment. As best I can determine, Puthoff conducted the experiment, which took place in June, 1972, without Targ's assistance. Targ had met Puthoff prior to this time, but their work together apparently did not begin until a few months later.
Rogo writes, "There obviously exist several discrepancies between Dr Puthoff's views on what happened during this experiment, and what Randi claims Dr Hebard told him. So to clarify the matter, I decided to get in touch with Dr Hebard myself. I finally tracked him down at the Bell Telephone Laboratories in Murray Hill, New Jersey. He was very willing to discuss the Swann magnetometer demonstration with me, and professed to be very interested in parapsychology." Hebard's interest in the paranormal contradicts Randi's statement that Hebard, "not being a reader of far-out literature," was unaware of Targ and Puthoff's claims.
Rogo acknowledges that Hebard's account differs in some respects from Puthoff's. "Dr Hebard denied in no uncertain terms, however, Randi's claim that Swann was never asked to 'stop the field charge' being recorded from the magnetometer. He easily recalled that he had suggested that it would be a fascinating effect if Swann could produce it . . . which, of course, he actually did soon after the suggestion was made. Randi also directly quotes Dr Hebard as calling some of Targ and Puthoff's claims 'lies'. Dr Hebard was very annoyed by this claim since, as he explained to me, Randi had tried to get him to make this charge and he had refused. Dr Hebard later signed a statement to this effect for me." (Ellipsis in original.)
As for the discrepancies between Hebard's and Puthoff's accounts, Rogo reports that in a subsequent meeting with Puthoff, he was shown "the actual graphed print-outs given by the magnetometer during the Swann demonstrations. The records supported Dr Puthoff's contention more than they did Dr Hebard's."
So far, then, the best we can say is that Randi's criticism of Puthoff (and Targ, who apparently wasn't even involved in the magnetometer experiment) is far from the last word on the subject.
Randi proceeds to launch a comprehensive critique of Targ and Puthoff's article "Information Transmission under Conditions of Sensory Shielding," which appeared in the October 18, 1974, issue of the respected journal Nature, and which can be read here The article details experiments involving, among other participants, the professed psychic Uri Geller.
Randi does produce two individuals willing to go on the record - Charles Rebert and Leon Otis, both of whom were SRI psychologists. Rebert and Otis apparently disagreed with the Targ-Puthoff conclusions; indeed, Randi tells us that "a horrified Rebert also heard that Targ and Puthoff were going to proclaim these erroneous findings before Stanford University's psychology department, and he forbade such a blunder. The talk was canceled." But this only tells us that there was a dispute among the scientists at SRI. Rebert and Otis ran some unsuccessful tests with Geller and decided that he was a fraud. Targ and Puthoff ran what they regarded as successful tests and decided that, in some areas at least, Geller had legitimate psychic powers. Nothing in Randi's text establishes which conclusion was correct.
Randi goes on to report that after he had criticized Geller in an earlier book, Targ and Puthoff "issued a 'fact sheet' in rebuttal to twenty-four" of his points. According to Randi, "This attempt was a failure, and in response to one claim that the SRI tests were done under tight controls, a scientist who was there declared flatly, 'This is b.s. As far as my colleagues and I are concerned, none of the experiments met accepted scientific protocol.' I will not burden you," Randi concludes, "with the other twenty-three points; they are as easily demolished."
Well, hold on. A quotation from yet another anonymous source ("a scientist who was there") hardly constitutes a demolition job, especially when the scientist's argument consists of an unsupported assertion ("none of the experiments met accepted scientific protocol"). Personally, I would have welcomed the "burden" of the other twenty-three points and of Randi's detailed and carefully documented rebuttals.
By now, I felt that Randi's credibility was in doubt. He had committed careless errors of fact, had quite possibly misrepresented and misquoted Hebard, and had made unsupported assertions based on rumors. I wondered what Targ and Puthoff have to say about all this. The only responses from either of them that I could find online were part of a long essay by Winston Wu, Debunking Common Skeptical Arguments Against Paranormal and Psychic Phenomena Winston Wu Debunks the Skeptics , the relevant part is Argument 18 Puthoff is quoted as saying the following:
"In Flim- Flam, [Randi] gives something like 28 debunking points, if my memory serves me correctly. I had the opportunity to confront Randi at a Parapsychology Association conference with proof in hand, and in tape-recorded interaction he admitted he was wrong on all the points. He even said he would correct them for the upcoming paperback being published by the CSICOP group. (He did not.) ...
"The truth of the matter is that none of Randi's claimed suspected inadequate controls actually had anything to do with the experiments, which of course Randi was not there to know of. This has been independently reported by Scott Rogo somewhere in the literature, who came out specifically to check each of Randi's guesses about inadequate controls and found them inapplicable under the conditions in which the tests were conducted. In fact, all of Randi's suggestions were amateurish compared to the sophisticated steps we took, suspecting as we did everything from magician's tricks to an Israeli intelligence scam....
"In case one thinks that it was just a case of our opinions vs. his opinions," Puthoff continues, "we chose for the list of incorrect points only those that could be independently verified. Examples: [Randi] said that in our Nature paper we verified Geller's metal-bending. Go to the paper, and you see that we said we were not able to obtain evidence for this. He said that a film of the Geller experiment made at SRI by famed photographer Zev Pressman was not made by him, but by us and we just put his name on it. We showed up with an affidavit by Pressman saying that indeed he did make the film."
There is no way for me to verify Puthoff's statement that he tape-recorded Randi's concession of defeat "on all the points." This has to stand as an unsupported assertion, just like Randi's own arguments. But it is possible to take a closer look at Puthoff's last two claims.
First, Puthoff insists that his and Targ's Nature article does not endorse Geller's alleged metal-bending. This is accurate, as you can see for yourself by reading the article www.heart7.net/mcf/hambone/g3.html . Puthoff and Targ write, "It has been widely reported that Geller has demonstrated the ability to bend metal by paranormal means. Although metal bending by Geller has been observed in our laboratory, we have not been able to combine such observations with adequately controlled experiments to obtain data sufficient to support the paranormal hypothesis."
On the other hand, I have not found any statement by Randi in Flim-Flam to the effect that Targ and Puthoff "had verified Geller's metal-bending." He attacks the Targ-Puthoff experiments on other grounds. Of course, he may have made this statement elsewhere, but as far as I can tell, Puthoff is rebutting a point Randi never made.
How about Puthoff's second claim, regarding the SRI film? Randi certainly does make this an issue in Flim-Flam. Targ and Puthoff, he writes, "appended to [the film] - without his knowledge or permission - the name of Zev Pressman, the SRI photographer who had shot the film.... Pressman, said Targ and Puthoff, was present during [a particular series of] experiments. Not so, according to Pressman.... Most damning of all, Pressman said to others at SRI that he had been told the successful [tests] were done after he (Pressman) had gone home for the day. So it appears the film was a reenactment ... Pressman did not even know that Targ and Puthoff were issuing a statement, he did not sign it, and he did not give them permission to use his name. He knew nothing about most of what appeared under his name, and he disagreed with the part that he did know about." (Italics in original.)
Here we have Randi saying that this photographer, Pressman, was duped and used by the experimenters, while Puthoff says that Pressman signed an affidavit swearing that "indeed he did make the film." Is there any way to resolve this?
Playfair writes, "[Randi] turned, in a later book, Flim-Flam, to the professional photographer who had made the film, a Stanford employee named Zev Pressman, with an extraordinary series of unfounded allegations....
"Pressman flatly denied all of Randi's allegations in two public statements, neither of which was even mentioned in the 1982 re-issue of the book. 'I made the film,' said Pressman, 'and my name appeared with my full knowledge and permission . . . Nothing was restaged or specially created . . . I have never met nor spoken to nor corresponded with Randi. The 'revelations' he attributes to me are pure fiction.'"
It is true that no mention is made of these "two public statements" in Flim-Flam's 1982 edition - the edition I own.
For corroborating testimony, I turned once again to the indefatigable Scott Rogo, who investigated this claim just as he had looked into Dr. Hebard's testimony and the infamous hole in the wall.
Rogo writes, "I spoke directly with Mr Pressman on 5 January 1981 and he was quite interested when I told him about Randi's book. He denied that he had spoken to the magician. When I read him the section of Randi's book dealing with his alleged 'expose' of the Targ-Puthoff film, he became very vexed. He firmly backed up the authenticity of the film, told me how he had taken it on the spot, and labeled Randi's allegation as a total fabrication. (His own descriptive language was a little more colourful!)" Rogo also reports that Puthoff showed him Pressman's signed affidavit.
How could Randi's conversation with Pressman be so different from Rogo's? The truth is, Randi does not appear to have had a conversation with Pressman at all. Take another look at the quote from Flim-Flam. The key words are: "Most damning of all, Pressman said to others at SRI ..."
Evidently, then, Randi's source is not Pressman himself, but unnamed "others at SRI" who passed on this information to Randi. Another round of Chinese Whispers, it seems.
Before I began this modest online research project for a rainy afternoon, I had mixed feelings about Randi. I saw him as closed-minded and supercilious, but I also assumed he was sincere and, by his own lights, honest. Now, having explored his contribution to the Targ-Puthoff controversy in some detail, I am thoroughly unimpressed. Randi comes across as a bullying figure, eager to attack and ridicule, willing to distort and even invent evidence - in short, the sort of person who will do anything to prevail in a debate, whether by fair means or foul.
The title of his book thus takes on a new and unintended meaning. From what I can tell, James Randi really is the Flim-Flam man.
Michael Prescott is a New York Times bestselling author. His published works include: Comes the Dark, Stealing Faces, The Shadow Hunter, Last Breath, Next Victim and In Dark Places. His latest book is Dangerous Games
It has been exactly one year and one week since anyone contributed to this thread - Being kidnapped. A sober thought ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page)
The thread has been very controversial, even a little antagonistic, and perhaps inspirational, but in my humble opinion, it has been very educational and interesting.
The thread evolved quickly into areas that did not fit within the ruling intellectual paradigm, probably ruffled some feathers and grew a new feather or two for some.
Being kidnapped is still a sober thought that, one year and one week later, still haunts some adventure motorcyclists.
I am revisiting this thread, not as an out cast, one exiled from another thread, although that has very recently happened again, but to ask all with interest in those who have recently been kidnapped in Mali and Mauritania (1 French, 3 Spaniards and 2 Italians) to follow the advice of steveindenmark (previous post) "Just pray a lot....." he has found that prayer works.
And please remember one of my countrymen " in true American fashion the man fought back furiously as they tried to kidnap him, when that failed they shot him in the head....... Chris Leggett (USA) and a Edwin Dryer (UK) who were both recently executed in Mauritania and Mali respectively.
Kidnapping is indeed a sober thought, I will also pray that someday the ruling intellectual paradigm, will consider new theories proposed by alternative research methods before they are *fait accompli mainstream news.
* fait accompli ... a thing that has already happened or been decided before those affected hear about it, leaving them with no option but to accept.
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You don't have to be a Member to come to an HU meeting, access the website, the HUBB or
to receive the e-zine. What you get for your membership contribution is our sincere gratitude, good karma and
knowing that you're helping to keep the motorcycle travel dream alive. Contributing Members and Gold Members do get additional features on the HUBB. Here's a list of all the Member benefits on the HUBB.