Wow! Thanks for that. Very interesting. Now of course I wouldn’t attack Scientology as you have been so kind to answer my questions. But I would guess that someone will at some point. I’m sure you know that it is word that produces a reaction amongst people. I don’t know more than I have read in the tabloids so wouldn’t even be able to comment. Certainly from what you write it sounds like a cross or combination of Buddhism and Star Wars. Or perhaps they sound like Scientology J
Anyway, obviously it hasn’t changed my view, but I would like one day to sit and get very drunk and discuss this further. I have learnt over years the ‘point’ of these discussions is not to persuade someone, but to slowly influence them. More influencing needed here!

__________________
Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

My understanding is that L Ron Hubbard, after careers in the military (Naval Officer), writing, he was one of the most prolific writers of wild west and science fiction books and articles of his time, explorer and student of physics did extensive research and did study all the major philosophies and religions of the world, past and present. From this view point, he created Dianetcis and Scientology. He selected aspects of present and past religions and philosophies that worked and actually helped people survive.

if anyone wants more data please go to the official Scientology web site. It would be inappropriate for me to try to explain Dianetics and Scientology as all the information is correctly presented and readily available to anyone on web sites and in the Missions and Organizations world wide. There are also hundreds of books available beginning with BOOK ONE Dianetics the Modern Science of Mental Health which has been translated into numerous languages and holds records for being on the NY Times best seller list for decades.

It is my understanding that the Scientologists do not use the expression "remote viewing." I believe this terminology was created for military/intelligence services projects and experiments. I may be incorrect, but I have never encountered the words "remote viewing" in any book of Dianetics or Scientology.

I do know one thing for certain, According to the Scientologists, your belief in a Supreme Being is based on what your experiences have taught you to be true, and being a Scientologist in no way conflicts with being Christian or Musslin or Buddist or Morman or Catholic or Hindu, etc. Scientology welcomes you and how ever you choose to worship God.

I am keenly aware that Scientology has been attacked by the media and by some governments of the world. I am also aware of the good the Scientologists are doing, with their How to Study Programs, drug rehab programs, Civil Rights and Patients Rights, educational programs regarding health and programs combatting the use of electro shock and the phycho active drugs, disaster relief, government administration, police and prison programs, extensive environmental programs, their protection of endangered species programs and on and on and on. I also know why the media, some governments and the medical establishment attack Scientology and encourage each of you to look into Dianetics and Scientology and decide for yourself if it is for you or not. And, after discovering what it is, determine why it is being attacked, the motivations of attacks against scientology might surprise you. xfiltrate

__________________
Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.xfiltrate.com

I was under the impression that this was a travellers hubb but it seems to slowly turn in to a hubb for people who seem to find it very important to tell others about their believes and convictions of life. I think there are more appropriate sites to advertise for scientology!

Or am I the only one who thinks this is out of place!

Noel

I am quite new here but also agree with you!

__________________
__________________
Jean Visser

http://ons4.reproroom.com

I thought the bar was created for exactly this type of discussion.

Personally I would rather make my mind up over scientology by speaking to someone who holds it close to themselves than from what I read in The Sun (sorry for the British reference).

I hope that travellng is broadening your mind by listening to other's opinion, and hence, personally find this the perfect place to discuss it.

Perhaps your discussion is better aimed at the discussion about whether to open a bar on the HUBB, rather than at this partcular thread?

I most certainly am not a scientologist, or even arrogant enough to think any of my opinons on religion/faith are correct, but I do like to listen to others.

__________________
Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

This post is entirely at home in "The Bar". If you don't like spit and sawdust, don't enter. Let's talk s*%*!

__________________
How much does a man live, after all?
Does he live a thousand days, or one only?
For a week, or several centuries?
How long does a man spend dying?
What does it mean to say “forever”? - Pablo Neruda

Ollie,

I fully agree with your thoughts on the HU Bar but this thread was about being kidnapped and should we worry about it. I'm sitting in my house currently looking at my kids playing, in 1 week from now we are leaving South Africa on our way to Europe. We will be passing through Tunisia, we won't change our route because of recent happenings but it is something rumbling in the back of our minds, hence my reason for reading this thread as it was very relevant to traveling. I cannot help but feel that the value of this thread is being diluted, sorry just my humble opinion.

__________________
__________________
Jean Visser

http://ons4.reproroom.com

Jean,

I think due to discussion going off-topc there:

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...-tunisia-33542

the discussion moved over here.

It is "The Bar", and it serves ideally to contain all manner of irrelevancies.

If you have real concerns and are looking for advice, can I suggest you post a separate thread under the "Travellers Advisories" forum?

__________________
How much does a man live, after all?
Does he live a thousand days, or one only?
For a week, or several centuries?
How long does a man spend dying?
What does it mean to say “forever”? - Pablo Neruda

Point taken

It was nice to follow people's views on kidnappings, it was an interesting thread for a while, for me at least

Pre-trip paranoia, I suppose

__________________
__________________
Jean Visser

http://ons4.reproroom.com

Sorry, I do realise the kidnapping is serious subject, and hope I haven't made it too hard for people to follow the information.

But yes, I think there are more relavent threads now.

I must admit I'm surprised to have found scientologists on the HUBB. And I didn't know that scientology involve something similar to remote viewing.

I'd just heard about aliens and Hollywood involvement.

I'm sure there are all types of religeons/philosophies on the HUBB. I wonder who else we have here?

__________________
Ollie

www.jollyfollies.com

Land's End to Sydney 2009

I believe the more a person communicates, the more alive that person is. Communication gives us understanding of others and communication allows us to share who we are and what we believe and enables us to produce great art, which, my opinion is a a high level of communication.

I agree that this "Kidnap" thread is not the proper venue to discuss Scientology. But discussing one aspect of Scientology, might be.

That aspect labeled , "remote viewing" by non Scientologists, is directly related to kidnapping. The location of many hostages has been determined by various "remote viewers." The location of a "lost" A bomb was accurately described by remote viewers, even though it was at great depths in the ocean. See internet for descriptions of industrial and government run remote viewing programs.

I introduced the topic of Scientology only in relation to "remote viewing" and the fact that many of the first remote viewers who established remote viewing programs (this includes the preliminary research done at Stanford and at MIT) had been Scientologists.

Other than the fact that the industrial/government/military remote viewing protocols share some characteristics of higher level training in Scientology and the fact that the originators of many remote viewing programs were at one time or another were, or are Scientologists, there is no need to discuss the merits of Scientology and as I previously stated that information is better obtained from the official Scientology web site.

Here is the connection as I see it. Learning to be exterior, or you, yourself as a soul or spiritual being having perceptual abilities beyond what the body and mind are capable of perceiving is where Scientology might be helpful to hostages.

An example was my post on the HUBB regarding the Missing Couple is Tunisia.

So, that said, no more discussions of scientology here other than if any one is interested they should visit a Scientology organization.

I just wanted to explain how Scientology came up on this Kidnap thread.

Thanks for understanding xfiltrate



for

__________________
Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.xfiltrate.com

good thread...i would only add reference to a great book i listened to on tape driving to/from my home to pensacola fl. Seems Pi (the storyteller and author) was a hindi, but got into his head that the more religions he belonged to the greater his chances in the present and in the hereafter. He became a catholic then a muslim (at age 10); the only ones who became upset were the preacher-types who "converted" him.
In a kidnap sit, I would become one with them as well, join their "religion" whatever...your soul isn't hurt by this but may be in fact be better off, since you have one more path to salvation or wherever the experience may lead. i believe in one motto: do whatever enhances your chances. As the gent above said, communication with our fellow travelers on this metagasmacallistic world hurtling thru space and time is the energy that propels us.
As is often said, if no one was in the forest to hear the tree fall, then it never fell...thus spake Zarathuustra.
aloha!

__________________
Greg M
Airhead for Life
67 69S/83' R100/88' 100GS/94' 100RT

Hey gmpm, great post. The way I look at it is that whatever you experience and you find to be true, or whatever you find that increases your potential and the potential of others to survive is indeed true for you and useful.

Communication is, reading, listening to the thoughts of others and sharing your thoughts or what you know to be true for you.

The "preachers" of the world are probably responsible for more death and destruction than most, think of the Spanish Conquistadors who laid waste to great civilizations that occupied present day Mexico, the Azec, all in the name of God. think of all the religious wars this small planet has suffered. Think of the current apparent persecution of those of "other" faiths occurring today.

I wonder if a person is never seen nor heard, like a tree falling in a forest and not being seen nor heard, if that person really lived?

Buddha civilized more than half the population of planet earth 600 years before Christ with these simple words: "Whatever is true for you is true because you yourself have experienced it to be true, and if you lose that, you have lost everything"

Before Buddha, the warlords were always fighting and that part of the world was very dangerous. So, some religions are beneficial for the survival of mankind, others are just destructive. To be able to know the difference requires learning about more than one religion. This is the doctrine of comparable magnitude, in logic, one must compare something with something else of comparable magnitude to understand that something.

IMPORTANT NOTE: For those looking to connect these words to kidnapping, just read the reports regarding why the Austrian couple was recently kidnapped in Tunisia, according to news reports it has to do with the Muslim/Israel land conflict. Might be "religious" motivated? OK?

Thanks gmpm, and enjoy your it is a pleasure to meet you. xfiltrate

__________________
Motorcycle Parking Buenos Aires, Argentina
www.xfiltrate.com

As somebody who avoids bars I sort of stumbled into this one in the expectation of finding out more about said kidnappings . Duh. I agree wholeheartedly with Cornish Deity when he cited the Wikepedia info Re:Carl Sagan and the balony detector.. For the first while I did not clue in to this **remote viewing **¨¨ business and then it finally clicked: this is nothing more than a renaming of the old clairvoyant bit : BALONY. Never mind all the acompanying bafflegab trying to cast it as some sort of deep philosophical revelation or as - yet - undiscovered scientific facts.
If these supposed remote viewers were up to their stuff then why did they not clue in to the scene , gps coordinates and all, of the kidnappers when they were preparing their crime? Could have saved a mess of trouble, could have sent a NATO or USAF drone bomber to blast the bastards before they could do their nasties. As it is the supposed viewers appear to have come up with their information only after the fact, publicity reports etc., a lot of use that is.
Good to see that xfiltrate at least suggests thet the kidnappings **might be religious motivated ** Might ???, Only might? Get with it - all these fanatics are religious driven , trying to score browny points for themselves among their fellow cult/sect /political faction memebers. And this goes for not only the particular persuasion of this kidnappers bunch either. Religions basically are nothing more than the placebo effect of fanciful tales and fertility cults subscribed to by non critical thinkers .Their benefit :detriment ratio is close to being 1:1 optimistically. Religion does not equate to civilization though the two are not mutually exclusive. The civilised world has become moreso in direct proportion to the degree to which it has let go of the hardline, fanatical aspects of the religion-------- fill in the blank.

__________________
http://advrider.com/index.php?thread....207964/page-5 then scroll down to post #93

Well said Sjoerd.

What you KNOW to be true???? What the beep do we know, we know squat!!!

The certainty with which some groups (terrorists) know their ways to be true, might be part of the whole f%&@#$g problem!

As soon as you "know the truth", your position is locked and communication is finished.

Truth is contemporary.

Noel