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TS185L Starts and runs, revs fine at idle, won't go over 30MPH
I have a 1974 Suzuki TS185, and I can't seem to get it to accelerate to more than 30MPH.
I have minor choke problems (it probably just needs to be cleaned again), but when I do get my bike started, it runs great. It idles, revs up quickly, runs well, and everything seems to work. In first gear, every thing is fine, it accelerates quickly and is very "peppy". But after second gear, it won't rev above about 3500-4500 RPM, and won't accelerate past 25-30 MPH. I changed the spark plug, cleaned the fuel system from the fuel cock, to the carb. (and replaced the fuel line), I cleaned the exhaust baffle, and ran a compression test (120 PSI). Everything seemed to check out. I haven't yet tried timing, but I'm not even sure if that could be it, being that it runs so well in neutral. Any suggestions, comments, questions, or revelations would be much appreciated. Ed:helpsmilie: |
At a guess, tight valves, or perhaps a torn rubber vacuum diaphragm in the carb if you run that sort (Keihin style, CVKs).
Also check coils. If failing, perhaps can't cope with faster firing rate as revs rise... |
It has the Mikuni vm24sh carb. My buddy Will, has the exact same carb on his bike, so I will swap them out and see if it fixes it.
I will also look into the coil, that could be it, but hopefully it's just fuel. Thanks Ed |
The ignition timing is meant to be set in the center of three lines with the induction timing light, at 4,000 RMP. it's actually set at the bottom line, not the center, so it's about 2mm's off. is that enough to cause it to do that?
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Hey EAnchak. I battled the exact same demon on my 82 ts. All the symptoms were exactly the same as yours. It was damn hard to start cold yet seemed fine once warmed up. I could rev it past redline in neutral but as soon as it was under load it had nothing. When I leaned out my carb jetting it ran better, but still not right. Turns out it was the ignition coil. It was producing a spark, but it wasn't hot enough. Leaner mixtures burn hotter which is why leaning out my jetting helped. If you can swap coils with a known good one you can be sure. Good luck :thumbup1: !
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As for the timing, it's better to under advance than over advance. Ideally though, it would be set so that at the fully advanced position (4000rpm on the 71 model?) the middle mark lines up with the mark on the crankcase. To adjust the timing, make a note of the distance by which it is off, then rotate the stator plate that same distance in the direction required to advance or retard the timing.
Suzuki state that to ensure perfect timing, users should line up the mark on the stator plate retaining hole with the corresponding mark on the side of the crankcase. This doesn't work for me though. Magneto air gaps increase, wires corrode and increase in resistance etc, etc. I just use the 'trial and error' method listed above. |
That was the conclusion I was drawing nearer to (and dreading).
Do you know how to get to the coil? I can't seem to figure out how to get the magneto cover off. There appears to be only one large nut holding it on, in the center. But it spins freely with the magneto. How do I hold the cover still, while I loosen the nut, or am I just going about it all wrong? Since my last post, I've de-carbonized the head and piston, and everything makes it sound better at idle, so hopefully, if I replace the coil, I'll have a damn fine bike. Please let me know if you can help out, as far as knowing how to do the job. Thanks very much Ed |
Just saw your second post, and I have the same question as to how I can get the magneto cover off.
Ed |
Wait, now that I've replied 3 times in a row on my own thread, I have another question.
Are you talking about the coil in the magneto for ignition, or the coil for the spark plug for ignition? Not to sound stupid, but don't those have the same name. :helpsmilie: Ed |
In my case it was the ignition coil that the spark plug and HT lead connect to (bolted to the frame underneath the fuel tank). To remove the magneto you'll need to select 5th gear, then undo the retaining nut. After that you'll need a flywheel puller. Before getting behind the magneto though, I would suggest that you try Will's ignition coil as his bike appears to be running well.
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Will do (first thing in the morning).
I'll let you know how it turns out, Ed |
Ok, so it isn't the ignition coil. I put wills coil on, and it didn't affect anything :censored:.
I already pretty much ruled out carb, because I tried swapping wills carb with no change. I've done the spark plug, coil, carb, pei wiring, all new oil in the oil tank, the oil injection works, timing is very close to the mark (about 1.5 MM off), Compression is 122, and it runs. The only new thing I've found is that in neutral it will go to the higher RPMs, but what I didn't realize until today was, it will still bog down at WOT (Wide Open Throttle). If I hold the throttle wide open in neutral, it will bog down and sometimes continue to run at about 1 grand, but very poorly. Same thing while riding, if I hold WOT in second, It will putter along, sounding terrible, at about 1 grand. It does this at any mixture setting, with 2 different mikuni vm24sh carbs, Could it somehow be trans? :hammer: I am at a loss Ed |
Aaarrgghhh!!!!!! The ts185 ghosts are back! This was one more symptom of mine - ran great on a small amount of throttle, died on full. When this happened we blew compressed air on the inlet side of the carb while WOT and the revs picked up again. So it needed more air. But the carb settings were stock so we thought 'that's not right'. I was pretty convinced it was the new coil that fixed the problem. But i did change both crankshaft seals at the same time - perhaps it was that. When the crankshaft seals go, the crankcase sucks in extra transmission oil from the gearbox which doesn't burn as easily as two stroke oil. If more air is added to the mixture (compressed air) then the mixture burns hotter and is able to burn off the extra oil. WOT will cause the greatest suction in the crankcase so that might be why it runs fine on 0-1/4 throttle, but dies at full throttle. In saying that, it could still be electrical if there is some damaged wiring in or around the stator plate...i think this is a problem for NigelMark :helpsmilie:
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So what you are saying is that it is engine rebuild time???
That could be fun, I guess. I took a small engines class, but that was a while ago, do you know where I can get a repair manual that would cover an engine rebuild? Is there any reason that you can't reuse the original piston, because I have good compression, and I wouldn't know what size to order because I don't know if mine is already oversize or not? I'd just as soon leave it in there. I will do what it takes to be :mchappy::clap::thumbup1::mchappy::mchappy::mchapp y: Ed |
Well, I just made the order of all the parts I need to do the rebuild, unless anyone else has a better Idea of what on earth is wrong with my bike.
I got the magneto flywheel nut off, but soon realized that I don't have any idea where my flywheel puller is or if I even still have it, so I tested the leads coming out of the stator to ground, and the Ohms we're about 50 to much, but because they we're both too high about the same amount, I assume it's just from my unorthodox test and they are fine. I have quite a few tools, but other than a piston ring compressor, and flywheel pulley, what other specialty tools do you guys think I will need to do the rebuild? |
TS woes
Sorry for the lack of input into this guys, but I have been away and then got the flu.... and I have a strange craving for nachos (topical joke that will be meaningless to people reading this in a couple of months...).
If the motor starts and runs fine at lower throttle opening but bogs out at wider throttle settings, then it's most likely one of three things. I will go through them in order of most probable: 1) Gas/air flow restriction. Gas/Carb: Make sure the main jet in open and the needle clip is in the centre position. I know you have swapped carbs so probably not this , but... The air flow is OK at lower throttle setting (where not much gas flow is needed). This almost always caused by partly blocked exhaust but can be the air filter (check for mouse nests etc!). I know you have cleaned the baffle but the front end of the exhaust system also clags up badly after a lot of hours. I have bought many two-smoke bikes really really cheap over the years that were running badly and got them back to perfect working order by cleaning out the exhaust. Lots of hard carbon and oil residue. There will be a lot especially if non-twostroke oil has been used. This is worth doing anyway, even it's not the total fix. The pipe has to be off the bike of course, and the heat shield, baffle and spark arrestor removed. Best way; Place the pipe outlet end upwards and heat the port end with oxy-acetylene until glowing red, and reduce the acetylene until you are slowly feeding pure oxygen. Very slowly as the heat generated from the burning carbon will melt the steel!!! Don't ask me how I know. Watch the glowing band of red move down the length of the pipe as the carbon turns to ash. It will take about 20-30 minutes and generate huge amounts of smoke. After doing this, the pipe will need a repaint. I use VHT black exhaust manifold paint from aerosol cans. Second best way is to throw the exhaust into a good hot fire for at least an hour, then take out and tap with a soft faced hammer. Shake out the chunks and paint. Third best way is with caustic soda and is pretty nasty so PM me to find out, if you can't do the other two ways. A simple test of a blocked exhaust is to take it off, and go for a quick blat with good hearing protection, when the neighbours are away! 2) Electrical. As the load comes on the motor, the resistance to the spark increases. If there is anywhere dodgy in the circuit, then it will break down the spark. Mostly with electrics I replace piece by piece with known good parts. I would replace the spark plug, then the ignition coil and lead (including cap), then the generation and trigger coils under the flywheel. A flywheel puller is easily made if you have some scrap steel plate, a 10-12mm bolt and nut, welder, drill and some case screws. Drill a hole in the plate big enough for the bolt to go through, and weld the nut around the hole. This bolt will be the puller. Drill three holes in the same pattern and spacing as the three threaded holes in the flywheel (i.e. a triangle), centered on the welded nut. Use three case screws to attach the plate to the flywheel and screw in the large bolt. The end of the bolt will press centered on the end of the crank, especially if you put a bit of a point on the bolt (do this after you have the bolt through the nut otherwise it can be hard to get the threads to match). Turn the bolt until fairly tight, then hit the head of the bolt sharply, with a hammer to jolt the flywheel free. It will usually take a few repeats. 3) Crank seals. There are two crank seals on these motors. The right (clutch side) seal is between the crankcase and the right main bearing. This bearing is fed from oil slung up from the clutch basket and is the only thing stopping the engine from sucking oil out of the gearbox via the clutch area. If this is the problem, the motor will blow huge clouds of blue oil smoke, and I do mean huge. I had a cop follow me for a couple of miles before he could see his way through the smoke to get past me to pull me over. That was on a 350cc Suzuki. Ignition side seal. This is outside the left main bearing (the opposite to the right side) as the two stroke oil pump delivers oil via two lines; one to the back of the barrel (that lubes the piston skirt directly) and the other to the left main bearing. The oil to this bearing then is flung out and collected inside a metal disc that has a rolled edge, a bit like a small Frisbee. The lip has an exit for the oil that leads though the crankshaft to a small hole in the crank-pin. This then lubes the big end bearing with neat clean oil that is then flicked out, some up to the small end and the rest all over the place, to be burnt with the fuel. It's call the Suzuki Crankcase Controlled Injection system or CCI. Much better than the way that makers like Yamaha relied on, feeding via a quill into the intake manifold to be splattered about at random. This is the main reason, in my opinion, why there are so many more old Suzuki two-smokes still running compared to Yamaha and Kawasaki. The only time it can be a problem is if people assume you can run on pre-mix and disconnect the oil tank. DON'T! It's amazing how long the motor will last, but after three or four tanks full of gas, the left bearing will start squeaking and then seize. Again, don't ask me how I know... Personally, I think it's unlikely to be a seal because if it's the right one, there will be masses of smoke. If it's the left one, the motor will usually only run while you fiddle the choke on and off to get more fuel in to balance the air coming in to the crankcase via the seal. Hope that helps! I would burn out the exhaust anyway, as it can't function as an expansion chamber properly with great lumps of carbon and oil residue there. You will gain horsepower and efficiency at the very least. Your symptoms are classic for this being the problem too. As to tools, if any of the above doesn't work, here is what I think. I have never owned a ring compressor so I don't know if they are any good. The Suzuki barrel has a nice taper at the bottom, so I just slap a lot of oil about and hold the rings with one hand while dropping the barrel down. For me the most important tool is an impact screw driver with really good quality, long bits. A leather and copper hammer, or hard rubber hammer is very useful if you get to the stage of separating the engine cases. Whew! Hope this helps and you can make sense of it. Feel free to ask if you don't. Regards Nigel in NZ |
thanks a lot for that detailed post. I'm sure it took a good while to write, so thanks for your time as well.
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I second that, thanks for the suggestions. I swapped Wills exhaust from his 1973 ts185, and we are about to take it to the local supermarket to test it (the neighbors get mad after midnight).
Hopefully it all checks out. Ed |
Well, it's not the muffler.
We switched out for a known good one (off the TS185 that runs perfectly), and noticed more horsepower and faster acceleration, but not much in the way of fixing the bogging at higher RPM, and the top speed is still 30, 35 if I have lots of room. I do have some choke problems, which I saw could relate to one of the crank seals, but my smoke seems to be normal, nothing very excessive. I got a flywheel puller, so next I'll test the coils, right at the coil, and test the PEI using the factory service manual. By the way, if anyone wants a copy of the service manual or explode diagrams for the TS185 1973-1976, I have digital scans. Well, that's where I am at. I will update if there is any other useful information. -EDIT- Just thought of something that I should have mentioned, the bike was found in a barn, nobody knows how long, but that was the story I was told by the guy I bought it from. It could have been sitting, untouched, for years. It only has 4000 miles on it (assuming the odometer is functioning). -EDIT- Ed |
Hey EAnchak. I'm still not sure what's causing your ts's problems, but an engine rebuild certainly won't hurt. There aren't a lot of specialty tools required to pull the ts engine apart. As Nigel said, an impact driver is a must to undo those crankcase screws, otherwise the heads will thread before you get them out. It's also pretty important to use a torque wrench so that no nuts or bolts are tightened more than others (which can distort surfaces and wreck gasket seals). A seal pick would make things quicker, but you can probably manufacture one yourself (nail + stick = seal pick). If you're replacing the crankshaft seals you'll also need a clutch spring puller. Again, you can manufacture one of these yourself. They're more or less a piece of coathanger wire that has been twisted and folded to resemble a J. Needle nosed pliers are also a must for the removal of the clutch springs. Splitting the crankcase halves can be a bit difficult but if you keep tapping different points with a rubber mallet, it will eventually come apart. Whatever you do, do not resort to prying it apart with a screwdriver - it will almost certainly damage the surface making it impossible to seal when you put it back together. While you've got it apart, it might be a good time to check the stator plate. Check for squished or damaged wires and dirty mounting points between the stator plate and the crankcase. Best of luck with the rebuild :thumbup1: !!!
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Alright, I'm dealing with pretty much the same thing. My bike is a 1972 TS185. Last year the bike was running great as always but then slowly started to pump out white smoke. After a little while of this it stopped running all together. Me being the person who I am started tearing the motor down. I originally thought that the center case gasket went on it but turned out to be the clutch side oil seal, not the mention that half the ball bearings in the clutch side crank bearing were gone. After replacing all the oil seals and all the bearings in the motor I put it all back together and last week I went to start it. Third kick it started right up, it smoked quite a bit and didn't run that well. Slowly I started messing with different things. The smoke is gone but it still doesn't run that well. Idles fine, but at wide open throttle bogs down. The spark plug was replaced just before it quit running and that made a little bit of a difference when it ran before. The spark plug cap is brand new as well. I've ran out of things to mess with. Me or my father can't think of what it could be. I did notice when I removed the air filter tube that it was spewing fuel out of the carb at about 3/4 throttle when it would spit and sputter. Maybe the spark isn't strong enough? I don't know, I don't understand because this was never an issue before I tore it apart.
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Hey Triggerhappy. The fuel spitting back into the carb sounds like a reed thing. When the crankcase is pressurized (during the down stroke) the reeds are supposed to stop any fuel/air mixture from escaping - if they're faulty, you'll have mixture coming right back out the carb inlet. With regards to the bogging down, I'm still inclined to think it is electrical. I'm almost certain the new ignition coil is what cured my problems. Crankseals and air leaks will make it run poorly, but the booging down symptom is classic of a faulty ignition system.
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Just got the engine out, and I'm about to start my first rebuild, it feels like kindergarten all over again.
As for triggerhappy98tp, If you don't have a spare ignition coil to test with, I have high def scans of the service manual and explode diagrams, which include how to test the ignition coil and stator coils with a multimeter. Just let me know if you need them. On a separate note, Will and I have been known to make a few websites here and there using different hosting services. Does anyone else here think that it would be a good idea to make a "Suzuki TS Forum"? Will and I could setup a forum, with a home page that includes pictures, links, diagrams, and other goodies, and a forum that would have multiple categories for the different TS models, and different sub-categories for each model. Let me know what you guys think, and I'll get to work on the motor just as soon as the parts get here. Oh, and Nigel, the spark arrestor is connected to the exhaust baffle right? they are all 1 unit? I think I'm going to have a good old fashioned exhaust campfire, because there was definitely noticeable improvement. Let the games begin, Ed |
A TS forum sounds like a great idea. There's not a lot of ts info on the web at the moment so I'm sure it would be a hit with TS owners :cool4:.
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Oh and to EAnchak, I think the forum idea is good, there are a lot of TS owners out there and there isn't one good place to go to get all the info we need. Also with your rebuild, I ran into two situations where I needed special tools, one was the remove the flywheel. I made my own flywheel puller (I actually made three the third one finally worked, lots of rust). The second, I had to make my own case separator tool, I can post pics if you want me to..also for the clutch pins and springs, i just used an old pair of c-clip pliers that were angled at 90 degrees. I used them like a hook to get under the pin and I pulled up and grabbed the pin with a pair of needle nose. I hate spending money on tools i'll use once...lol |
I'll build a beta of a fourm site asap.
I will try to register "suzukits.tk" for the beta. Using the .tk instead of the .com will allow me to make it for free, and if it works well, I'll get the .com I'll let people know when it's online. Ed P.S. nothing further as far as my engine, triggerhappy98tp let me know how the electrical diagnosis works out for you. |
I'm all for the TS forum too, and will help any way I can. At the very least it will get the traffic of Horizons, as it's not really a forum for such a specific thing as TS185s! I own 3 TS's. A 2003 and 2004 TS185ER, and a 1973 TS50, but I have about 20 old Suzuki two-smokes in the shed.
Regards the electrical test; the test will tell you one of two things, certainly bad and probably good. Sometimes coils that test OK off the bike can fail under heavy load, heat or vibration. A coil that has tested OK can still be a problem. That's why I try to swap a known good one. It's easy for me as I have two 185s and about 6 Suzuki A50 bikes and motors which are the same as the TS50. And triggerhappy98tp, you are right on the money about reed valves. They came in from '77 in most, but not all counties. Some had to wait until '78 until all the old stock ran out. Also regarding your bike, I really can only see one way the electrical system would be affect the carb to the point that it's spitting back fuel. It could be ignition timing or bad electrics. You will see some fuel fogging at the carb mouth in the non-reed motors (that's the main reason why they went to reeds) when the motor is bogging and the throttle is fairly open. Is it a serious amount of liquid fuel? Has anyone been into the carb? It could be the float level is way too high. Regards Nigel in NZ |
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If you can get a bit of compressed air slowly blowing through the pipe while you are bar-b-queing it, that will speed up the burning. Regards Nigel in NZ |
Well, the trial of the site is fully active.
You can access it either at: Suzuki TS Forum • Portal or suzukits.tk It is pretty easy to remember as either Suzuki-TS or Suzu-Kits. Feel free to join, post, and spread the word, because if it looks like it will do well, I will put a .com on it. By the way, Nigel Marx, I sent you a PM about the new TS site. |
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Also I've been in the carb to clean it out because I thought that might have been the problem but to no avail. Everything looked to be ok when I was in there though. |
To all here I have also have a old TS185, but no carburetor. I do have questions.
All I have found so far are spigot mount mikunis, but no adapters for them, does anyone know where they can be found? Can the seals particularly the RH from what I read above be replaced without tearing the engine apart? This bike has been sitting outside so I have gotten a seat from ebay, ordered a gasket set but need a carb to get it to check out. The seals are from what I read about in a magazine when a guy wrote in with a problem and they recommended R&R of seals. Can I get a copy of your scans, the book I bought is very basic and really doesnt help much. Its a clymers. Also Nigel in NZ, are there carbs for these available down your way? Can find all kinds for hondas etc all 4 stroke related. we are going to teach my sons girlfriend to ride if I can get it going, messing with it the other day, showed some positives, oil still in the tank, no leaks, 99% complete but will need the usual stuff, tires, sprockets, chain, brake lever. Bike Bandit has some of this stuff so it appears some stuff still is available. need a gas cap if anyone has one. Thanks in advance. Hank |
You could always try ebay. you can get good as new carbs for the ts185 for less than $50.
I have some scans on my site: suzukits.tk I am going to upload the clymer manual very soon as well. Best of luck |
this thread came to my attention once again due to a spammer posting on it!
Sadly suzukits.tk and .com seem to be non-existent, so feel free to post Suzuki TS here in the Suzuki Tech forum. I have a big soft spot for Suzuki TS's, especially the 185 - I raced one successfully way back when! GREAT bikes. |
New forum
Hi Grant. I was just here to clean up the spammer's work too.
The new TS forum is here: Home | Suzuki TS & TC Forum Regards Nigel |
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