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  #31  
Old 24 Feb 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzerrtw View Post
ffs...if your worried about hurting yourself....Dont ride bike's

there are 1000's of things that can hurt you when riding your bike...your luggage is way down the list.
Nevertheless, luggage is a major purchase. It's worth a bit of thought about the pros and cons before splashing out.
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  #32  
Old 24 Feb 2010
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Excellent comments, very well balanced!

Quote:
Originally Posted by todderz View Post
They were very convenient for packing, swallowed a lot of stuff, and gave me somewhere to put all my stickers including my world map with my route marked on it, which was a great conversation starter. It made me less nervous about having stuff pinched, too.

They also were very useful as a table, a chair, and a bike stand. And not much more expensive than quality, waterproof, secure, robust soft bags.
Ah, stickers! Now we're getting somewhere!

I have several sets of soft bags, most bought for $50 to $100US for the pair. Craig's List/Ebay good for this. Even older Givi plastic bags are quite expensive, usually over $200, for older 2nd hand pair, now add cost of the racks. The Alu panniers I've seen range from about $450 up to $1400 usd or so. Probably cheaper used. BMW and KTM factory ones are lighter but pretty expensive and dent pretty easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by todderz View Post
I'm not sure what I would leave out, but having that space available probably meant I took too much stuff. I suspect I wouldn't have crashed anyway if the front hadn't been so light, and I certainly wouldn't have had so much drama on the trans-siberian with a broken frame and snapped pannier rails if I hadn't been carrying all that weight.
I struggle with over packing and hard bags means I for sure will end up with more junk than I need. Soft bags limit what you can carry, forces you to be more efficient/creative. Quite a challenge really.

The benefits of the bike riding SO MUCH better in sand & tough off road conditions is priceless, IMHO. Having dealt with serious injuries in remote places, I remain a fan of letting the bike be the best it can be off road. This at least gives the rider a fair chance making it through with fewer, less serious injuries. Also, with soft bags you have less chance of cracking a mounting rack on your hard bags, this, one of the most common mishaps. Riding thousands of miles of washboard has yet to bring any damage to my bikes frame, sub frame or soft bag racks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by todderz View Post
I'm thinking about something halfway - maybe smaller, lighter boxes, perhaps even plastic ones. And less stuff (still struggle with that - all the stuff I never used on the last trip, I still tell myself that if I don't take it I'll need it, same goes for the stuff I ditched at the side of the road in Siberia...)
I have left a lot of stuff behind in hotels or given to local friends, shop mechanics. Makes it better for the next rider coming along. Really hard to trim down the load. As time goes by on the road, gets easier.

I think most travelers don't weigh up all their stuff and rarely weigh their luggage alone, empty. Pretty amazing what a set of Ally panniers weigh, now add on the steel racks, steel (or Ally) brace pieces, nuts and bolts.

It's likely to add up to MORE than clothing & gear combined. Certainly a strong case for soft bags. Going from hard to soft I lost about 20 kgs. and best of all you could really feel this difference riding the bike in dirt.

Perhaps the big twins handle the big loads better? Seems extra weight does not have such a negative effect on handling on a 600 lbs.(272 kgs.) bike? On a lightweight single it really does have a bad effect, in my experience.
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  #33  
Old 24 Feb 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GasUp View Post

I can't understand why this is such an emotive issue, in the end, just like your choice of bike, luggage is a choice of what best suits an individual
..

Well.... for me it's because it takes me back to when I was looking into luggage for overlanding. I was told over and over to get Metal Mules or equivalent as they were surely "The only way" etc etc etc and I would be a fool to take anything less. Maybe I just got unlucky with replies or timing.. Who knows !!

Well, I spent the best part of £900 on my Aluminium luggage. That was
15 % of my budget.

I only rant on so much about it because there are a lot of new riders who will potentially blow a large chunk of their travel funds on something that is maybe inappropiate and also and more importantly, adding to the danger and weight to a probable "novice" offroad rider. It doesnt matter how much of a fantastic road rider you are (I've done motard racing and spent 10 years on silly sports bikes), it's a COMPLETELY different bag of tricks.

I just hope most are more savy than I was when it comes to spending money on luggage and prep.
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  #34  
Old 24 Feb 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedmagnum View Post
I was told over and over to get Metal Mules or equivalent as they were surely "The only way" etc etc etc and I would be a fool to take anything less.
Fine. You were told the same story over and over again, and time has told that it was not right for you. But the way you say it implies that hard luggage is simply not the way to go, full stop. And that just is not arbitrarily the case....

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedmagnum View Post
I only rant on so much about it because there are a lot of new riders who will potentially blow a large chunk of their travel funds on something that is maybe inappropiate and also and more importantly, adding to the danger and weight to a probable "novice" offroad rider.
Again, you can feel entitled to rant given you spent money you later found that did not provide you with what you needed.

However, again, it is a stretch to say buying hard luggage is adding to danger, even if it does add to weight. You had a bad experience, so did someone else you spoke to. That only proves that in your "off" you got caught by a pannier. Not that panniers are an inherent danger....

As I suggested earlier, it is just as feasible that someone could crash without panniers, get injured by part of their bike, which would not have touched them had they had hard luggage... Like me.... I reckon I'd have a footpeg shaped scar on my left calf muscle were it not for hard luggage...

Additionally, as pointed out earlier, there are plenty of people with lots of experience of off-roading, fully loaded, that have had no such issues such as you described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedmagnum View Post
I just hope most are more savy than I was when it comes to spending money on luggage and prep.
The only savvy one can wish on others is that, once they have the information they can choose the best kit for them hard or soft, rather than what peer pressure demands....
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  #35  
Old 24 Feb 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warthog View Post
Fine. You were told the same story over and over again, and time has told that it was not right for you. But the way you say it implies that hard luggage is simply not the way to go, full stop. And that just is not arbitrarily the case....

If you read my earlier posts, I said the contrary. My argument was for offroad riding only.


Again, you can feel entitled to rant given you spent money you later found that did not provide you with what you needed.

However, again, it is a stretch to say buying hard luggage is adding to danger, even if it does add to weight. You had a bad experience, so did someone else you spoke to. That only proves that in your "off" you got caught by a pannier. Not that panniers are an inherent danger....

As I suggested earlier, it is just as feasible that someone could crash without panniers, get injured by part of their bike, which would not have touched them had they had hard luggage... Like me.... I reckon I'd have a footpeg shaped scar on my left calf muscle were it not for hard luggage...

Additionally, as pointed out earlier, there are plenty of people with lots of experience of off-roading, fully loaded, that have had no such issues such as you described.

Very true and good points and I do agree to a point... It's still a whole lot of sharp metal to add to the equasion though.

But.. the more weight DOES mean instability and more handling issues. Especially with weight balance and suspension. That DOES makes it more risky and dangerous. I don't know how anyone could deny that ??? How can having a lighter, more balanced, easier to handle bike NOT be safer and easier to handle as it's designers intended ?? Maybe i'm missing your point ??



The only savvy one can wish on others is that, once they have the information they can choose the best kit for them hard or soft, rather than what peer pressure demands....
Aye men !!!
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  #36  
Old 25 Feb 2010
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OK, but it's important to remember that "more dangerous" does not equal "dangerous", the same way "taller" does not mean "tall"....and it felt to me that this was where the general message was headed.

After all it's all relative: Had my old GS had soft luggage, it still would have been heavier than a DR650 with hard cases.
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  #37  
Old 26 Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbekkerh View Post
I have seen a lot of hard-versus-soft-case discussions but haven't encountered any that deals with the risk of injury from the hardcases.

I have read a few stories where people got injured because the foot jammed behind a rock or was stuck in a rut then the case guillotined the foot/lower leg.

The case, on the other hand, could save your foot, in a slow crash, as it keeps the bike off your foot/leg when the bike is hitting the ground.

Is this a real risk or were these cases just freak accidents?
These are real risks.

I started a RTW trip in Jan. Came off my bike on day 3 in Spain

Front wheel slipped on a roundabout I was doing around 10mph and stuck my leg out (natural reaction) and the RHS case broke my ankle.

Result 1 week in hospital, 5 in cast and and end of trip.


Then again on day 1 of the trip I came off in the snow in Kent (it was the 8th Jan, the height of that snowy weather we had!). LHS pannier protected me from the bike (1150) as the engine bars and case meant that the bike didn't touch me.

So you win some you lose some. Just losing usually hurts more.
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  #38  
Old 26 Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warthog View Post
I have to second that point of view.

I have Vern's panniers.

Never got hurt by them: not saying it would never happen, but personally I value panniers keeping a heavy bike off my leg, keeping my luggage intact, keeping my luggage in my possession, more than the (I would say) realtively low risk of the bike catching my leg...

My leg was trapped under my metal boxes on a low speed drop. My heavily armoured motocross boot saved me from any injury..

I think decent MX boots will save you from your bike much more than an aluminium box which "could" actually hurt you.

I think the risk of injury is quite far down the list of why not to use hard luggage. The subject has been done to death, brought back to life and then done to death again more times than anyone can even count on this website.

I think Grant could do with a long, detailed, nuetral ,well researched article on the subject sorted out !! Not a "this is better than that" but just a page with all the info so people can make their own decisions.
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  #39  
Old 26 Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *Touring Ted* View Post
I think Grant could do with a long, detailed, nuetral ,well researched article on the subject sorted out !! Not a "this is better than that" but just a page with all the info so people can make their own decisions.
Ted, I think its really pretty simple. No need for a "study".

The fact is, its really about :
1. Image. Hard bags look the part. Feck the extra 50 kgs.!
2. Insecurity. Most don't trust 3 world situations and like to keep everything locked up tight, most would never trust a local to keep an eye out.
3. Stickers! It's all about Stickers!
This joins with #1 ... Image. Got to have a place for Stickers for Dog's sake!!
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  #40  
Old 26 Apr 2010
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Originally Posted by Mickey D View Post
The fact is, its really about :
Stickers! It's all about Stickers!

+1

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  #41  
Old 26 Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey D View Post
Ted, I think its really pretty simple. No need for a "study".

The fact is, its really about :
1. Image. Hard bags look the part. Feck the extra 50 kgs.!
2. Insecurity. Most don't trust 3 world situations and like to keep everything locked up tight, most would never trust a local to keep an eye out.
3. Stickers! It's all about Stickers!
This joins with #1 ... Image. Got to have a place for Stickers for Dog's sake!!
Heh heh.. Ain't that the truth !!
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  #42  
Old 26 Apr 2010
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I think this is one of those freak kinds of accidents. Of course they can cause damage but I think it is rare and would not prevent me from using hard panniers. In fact in my experience they have helped from the bike's full weight being on my leg.
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  #43  
Old 27 Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chasetheday View Post
I think this is one of those freak kinds of accidents. Of course they can cause damage but I think it is rare and would not prevent me from using hard panniers. In fact in my experience they have helped from the bike's full weight being on my leg.
But consider the extra weight your carrying and how much affect that has on you falling down in the first place. Heavier bikes are harder to ride off road .... period.

Anybody dispute that statement?

When you take 50 kgs. off your bike I think you'll find your previous Pig transform into something that is a delight to ride off road. (within reason of course and depends on which bike your on)

For those on large, tall and heavy bikes you may as well run hard bags and carry as much as you need and then some, because going off road won't be an option for you anyway.

Which is better?

Ride the World ... and bring the World along with you on your bike!


Or this?
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  #44  
Old 27 Apr 2010
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how much weight will you save by going from hard to soft ?
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  #45  
Old 27 Apr 2010
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Originally Posted by pbekkerh View Post
how much weight will you save by going from hard to soft ?
The weight of the panniers and mounting rack, minus the weight of the soft panniers, I would have thought.

The panniers should not affect what you pack, however tempted you might be to fill them! Plenty of souvenirs to stick in the empty spaces once on the road.
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