Selling the bike dilemma - BA or Paraguay, and how??
Ok, this is all very confusing, I think I read anything the search turns out on this subject both here and on ADV, and it's still confusing.
I'm trying to sell a great XR650L in Buenos.. but from what I read it's very difficult, people either don't succeed, or get bad prices etc etc. From what I gather so far I see three options:
1. sell to tourist/foreign passport by POA (local notary) and get new aduana papers by exiting and re-entering. Problem - finding tourist. Solutions?: HUBB,ADV ads? what else?
2.selling to a local for cash - empirically impossible, as no one wants a great bike with no legal papers. I find this VERY strange, there are XR's from 1994 going for 7000$ USD on local boards and no one would buy a 2008 one and solve the problem later? (as locals always can, in many ways, and doubt it would cost more than 100$US). So problem: finding a willing and able local. Solution: local sim-card and local sites? mercadolibre?? Problem number 2 : would I have problems flying out??
3. riding to Paraguay (Asuncion) and sell it there to local shops? Problem: how long would it take once there? is it worth it pricewise? good idea?
4. sell for parts, little money, lot's of heart-ache for the loyal and noble companion.
PLEASE, people who faced this situation and resolved it somehow - share your experience. I have two and half more weeks here and do not want to sell it for parts.
P.S. please no hi-jacking for legal debates, I read the previous hi-jacks, it's no fun and doesn't help.
Proven Temporary Solution with No Legal Debate
Ruthrad, your XR650L is a beautiful functional bike. Great photos. I agree
that this bike should not go for parts. This XR650L is a winner!
If you need more time to sell - ride it out of Argentina or Ferry to Uruguay
and return and collect a temporary vehicle import permit for 8 months. You
will have more time to sell your bike, transfer U S title etc.
legal issues not withstanding. You can exit Argentina without your bike.
I can offer safe and secure parking in Buenos Aires. See web site below,
click on "see our services" and
PM or e-mail me. I would be willing to give you a discounted deal.
Best advice I can offer.
I just PM you back!
Best is to sell to a second traveller.But both need to be here to do the river crossings.
I have an 94 XR 650L but to register it here......no way!
What I would offer you as spares would offend you of course.
Offer it here and on ADV and be patient.If not posible ship it home?
CU at Dakarmotos?
thanks for the responses. Naturally I will wait and see (which is quite difficult after such a long time of self reliance and freedom and not having to wait for anything or anyone :)) but guess every good thing has to end.
@xfiltrate - thanks, I don't think I want to leave this thing unresolved and fly home and leave it stored here, and besides, how am I going to transfer ownership without being here (need to go to notary together). US transfer may only be relevant if the buyer is from the US, because I am not.
@BCK_973 - hope to see you there :)
Any opinions on the Paraguay option?
Also, what is this "thumbs down" thing? what did I do wrong?
Selling in Paraguay
In Asuncion, across the street from the municipality, is a used motorcycle shop that often imports bikes from Europe and the US. The dude's name is Mikael, and he could be interested. Another option would be to talk to Klein Motos.
hope it works
hopefully you'll sell it in Paraguay, crazy situations, but hopefully everything will go ok.
Let me know if everything wen right ok
Personnally, i will be much more cautious activating local friends networks for people i dont know even if they insistedly begged for it. After i asked a paraguayan biker to contact this traveller live on chat, he got plain silence as an answer of his offer to help and felt stupid (so did I).
When we advise helping people, we share the responsability of their behaviour with friends we actually know and meet regularly. Too many leisure kilometer burners are in the disposable "use and dump" emergency contact mode, ignoring this reality.:thumbdown:
OK, so what I learned.
I write this mainly so people who come to similar situations in the future would have more information to act on, and would make better use of their limited time. So feel free to contribute a reply, an opinion, or ask for me to edit something in my post (like a business that doesn't want to be mentioned).
Short version - try to sell in Punta Arenas to a local, if not online to a tourist (Buenos is a comfortable place, but anywhere close to a border would work), if not - Ciudad del Este to locals, surest option (but lower price).
Now for everything I know now on this subject.
1) best option if you find a tourist to sell to (through posting on ADV / HUBB), depends on season (when people start trips), takes time to find (so arrange beforehand), takes some trust. Documents are either photoshoped (US registrations), or transfered legally in US (US title), or transfered by a "poder" (power of attorney) in a local notary. This is the known / popular option. Price range 2500 -3500 $.
2) shitty option - "sell for parts" to local in Buenos or Mar del Plata. 1500$
It's like Guatemala, but in SA. Just switch back to central america / third world mode, and you'll feel back at home with the people and the traffic.
Coming through the border you are told that you don't need the aduana paper, so basically your bikes in not regirtered anywhere (they just check your ownership papers). You can go back and get it if you ask for it, but it depends on the buyer - if they think they need or not (both in Asuncion and Ciudad del Este the border is very close if you want to go back and get it).
First of all, a much cheaper place to stay, not nearly as dangerous as people make it out to be, some parts are pretty western, some nightlife.
But not many cheap places to stay (just three hostels) and parking is difficult. What I found was a very cheap hostel (30000 guarani - 30 arg pesos) on 1422 Paris street (there was no sign, just ring the bell). The owner has a parking space in an underground parking of a building nearby, secure and confortable. Aircon in the rooms and good atmosphere.
The process for legalizing the bike in Paraguay from what I understood is that they buy the bike from you using a local notary (escribania) and than legalize themselves later (that a process called "despachar" and the complexity and cost of it depends on the connections of the buyer, but I kept hearing sums from 1500$ to 3000$, for all I know, they might not be paying anything, and that's just negotiating).
To sell what you do is:
1) go to the bike businesses and offer the bike. They call friends, and than either you'll have someone interested in the bike or not. I was offering for 3000$ and had a few people interested but non that came through quickly enough (one disappeared just before the exchange) before I moved to Ciudad del Este. The bike shops there were recomended to me on the HUBB via messages etc are the following:
- Klein motos, on aviadores del chaco, near chacore street. They seem to be the boutique bike shop of the city with the attitude and prices to match. Weren't very helpful or nice, maybe I came on a bad day. But drop by to see maybe they know somebody who happens to be interested.
- Gotze dealership, on mariscal lopez near the municipalidad . was very helpful despite being busy.
- Motoland, on cedro street between concepcion and patria. a harley shop, but he might know.
- A shop on Francia right after Brazil street.
- Alsina, on Independencia 840 or smth.
2) publish on Clasipar.com (the local craigslist). I tried that twice and my ad got deleted both times. First I thought it was because I only had e-mail there, but than I used a local phone and it still got deleted. I think it's because I wrote that it was "a despachar" meaning it still needs to get legalized.. I don't know really, but the locals all say to publish there. So try that, as it might be a much more efficient way.
- Ciudad del Este:
I read a couple of times that this might the ultimate place to sell quickly, I was told in Asuncion multiple times that I should go there (but be very careful), also a HUBB user and traveler who lives in Foz do Iguazu (the brazilian side of Ciudad del Este) - Rodolfo (here under "Iguassu falls Quati") contacted me and told me the same thing and even offered his help.
So why Ciudad del Este? many more bike shops, and a lot of trading happening, the pace is quicker and people are more business oriented. It will be harder negociating, but you get answers quickly. I wanted to sell in a day, and it happened to be a saturday (short day), and after a lot of riding around (first alone, and than with Rod) and some luck asking directions from the right people on the street - there was an agreement, and monday we went to the notary and money and bike changed hands.
Money - I was offering it for 3000$ and was bargained down to 2600$ by the buyer only because I didn't want/have more time to spend on the sale even though I had other potential buyers scheduled to see the bike a bit later. I think if I would spend another day or several days it was totally possible to sell it for more, because I think that those people there, pay less for the legalization, if at all.
So basically, bike sold in a day (and a saturday) in Ciudad del Este. I think it's lucky, but also, I think Ciudad del Este is probably the right place to offload a bike quickly for a reasonable price in SA.
If you go to sell in Ciudad del Este, you should stay in Foz do Iguassu (the brazilian side) because it's much safer and cleaner (but EXPENSIVE). Crossing the bridge is not a problem at all (no one ever asks you anything, I crossed it maybe 10 times, with luggase and without).
In any case - if you go there contact Rodolfo ("Iguassu falls Quati" on hubb), he's an incredibly helpful guy, knows the towns, and he told me that he'll be happy to help other moto-travelers as well. Could not thank him enough! But guess he'll post here as well :)
Also, "Vorteks" helped me a lot with info on Asuncion. Thanks!
Punta Arenas : read several times of people selling bikes there to locals because of different tax laws. Wish I would have known that when I was there. So if you can try and sell there before going north - try that (and write about it).
I also felt kinda stupid, because I added you guys and there was "silence" (except the wall post or smth).
guess it was a misunderstanding.
However as I wrote below - I am very thankful for your help with info about Asuncion!
Thanks for your detailed report, it was indeed needed, many travellers just forget to help others by posting their experiences after getting help themselves.
Paraguay might at a first look seem messy and laid back, and corruption is indeed a cultural feature, but there are laws as well, and paying taxes to import a foreign vehicule is mandatory. Import taxes are one of the main finance sources for the government, since there are no income taxes yet.
You did fairly well selling your bike at that price in such a short time. On clasipar at least you could find out the market price of your bike once legalized, which allows you to make a marketable offer to potential buyers.
A warning tho : you do need to have, like in any other country, a custom paper testifying your entrance in Paraguay. I guess you entered thru Falcon, where custom officers are fairly busy and might have been lazy or considered you as a curepi (Argentine). But your vehicule could have been impounded in case of police check. You could have solved the problem with a 50,000 note...or not, depending on the officer mood or values...So you got lucky there.
Paraguay is also a practical place to start a south american tour on motorbike. There is an international airport with no custom hassle, and no waiting at the end of the trip, and you can buy a local motorcycle and leave the country just with a foreign passport. I m currently in Tarija, Bolivia, and my neighbour is a belgian biker with a paraguayan plate on a 250cc Taiga motorcycle he bought new of 1000 USD. He s doing just fine and plans to go to Mexico with his chinese bike. No insurance problem as well in Paraguay since this is optional.
You can find clean single rooms with tv and wifi in the very center of Asuncion for as low as 50,000 pyg, look around Parque Uruguaya. The description on Klein motos is fine, i used to recommend him a few years ago, I dont anymore...
about what I wrote about the "aduana" paper. On entrance (Asuncion) I was told I "don't need it", I asked what about the police, they told me "they don't ask for it".
In klein-motos later the guy told me that I DO need that paper for any buyer to buy my bike. So I went and got it (it's a half an hour ride, and 5 minutes at the border).
Now, that said, the buyer in Este actually insisted that I go to the border and cancel my aduana paper (give it back, as if "exiting") and the bike comes back without it. And this is not the first bike he buys (the 4th I think). So I guess each buyer and his ways.
On a side note about the police : in Asuncion it was VERY clear that they don't care about ANYTHING, sidewalks, against the direction and red lights - it's all OK if the police is there or not. So I don't know how serious they are about the paperwork.. I would guess not very.
I wouldnt, as you do, recommend to pass the border without asking for the temporary import paper as your report suggest, this is why i intervened. Generally, the mood is permissive, but a few days in a country can give you missleading impressions. There are massive controls from times to times and the goal is to find and regulate what the general permisseveness allowed to last... too long.
I went thru the nationalization maze and talked with import agents : laws exist and are meant to be applied. If you respect them, you are safe from the hazards of arbitrary law enforcement, if not, you assume the risks.
Additional information : vehicules over 10 years old can t be legally imported in Paraguay. I have a paraguayan I.D but can t nationalize my french motorcycle.
Selling your bike in Paraguay.
This a long overdue response to this post. I read this post all through my travels; Peru, Argentina, Chile, Brazil and naturally now Paraguay. First off I'll start by saying that I successfully sold my bike in a very short window for a fair price, thanks to the ultimate biker Rodolfo...Getting close to the end of my trip I really wanted to try and sell my bike, so my first move after reading this post was attempting contact with Rodolfo via the Hubb when I was a couple days from Puerto Iguassu (Argentina side) Thinking I would not likely receive a reply, I took the chance and emailed “Rodolfo” to see if he could offer some tips on the selling in Paraguay. Within hours I had a reply and an offer to meet for lunch, an offer I am so very thankful for. “Rodolfo” will inspire you if you’ve ever had any doubts about the biker community. Within hours he had arranged accommodation, a sales plan and any other help we may need strictly out of the goodness of his heart. I must really try and paint this picture a little better. Rodolfo has a schedule that would kill the average man, he runs a muti-national toy company 6 days a week, goes to school 5 days a week in the evenings, takes care of his family who have recently faced some very serious illness and tries to spend any remaining time with his girlfriend “Mariane.” He has an unrelenting schedule, yet he made every attempt in whatever time he had to help us though our travels. He is really a true class act and we can’t thank him enough. Rodolfo you are the definition of “biker community,” we couldn’t have done it without you.
Rodolfo has a cousin "Alexadre" who's place you see in these Photos Pipes and Lil'P go South! this is the weekend home of Rodolfo’s cousin “Alexandre” another biker with a big heart. Alex met up with us and gave us the keys to this little haven at a price that was way beyond fare. It would be home for the next 5 days, a place to swim, tan, eat, relax and prepare my sweet “Maria” for sale in Paraguay. Other bikers have been to this place before and can attest to how sweet it is, if you go to Foz Do Iguassu get a hold of Rodolfo….
The plan was made. Rodolfo had helped a few other bikers in the past attempt to sell their bikes over the border in Paraguay, so his plan was good. Why Paraguay you ask? Well basically it’s the only country in South America where you can LEGALLY sell your bike.
Here was how we got to this point. Our options.
Option 1: Ship the bike back to Canada (pros: Have the bike that took us on an unforgettable trip. cons: very expensive, tons of bureaucracy, last minute planning and realistically I wouldn’t ride a KLR that much in Canada.)
Option 2: Sell it for cash illegally to a friend or stranger as a parts bike as they will never be able to register or drive it illegally. (pros: drive it all the way to Rio. cons: get very little money for the bike, stress of finding a buyer, not closing temp vehicle document with Brazil causing potential issues in the future with entry or if it turns into a parts bike, have the guilt of watching your loyal companion get torn apart.)
Option 3: Go to Paraguay and attempt to sell the bike. (pros: potentially get a reasonable price for the bike and not have any more stress with what to do with it. cons: sell the bike a little earlier than I would have liked and the risk of something going sideways in the fast paced and sometimes dangerous city know as Ciudad del Este, Paraguay.
Our first step was to get over the border, which if you’ve been here you’ll know is different than any other border in the world. You simply swerve in and out of traffic following other bikers, blow past the Brazilian side over a bridge then through the Paraguay side looking forward and hoping nobody stops you. It’s really weird, but that’s how it works. Ciudad del Este is basically a shopping area for Brazilians who want to avoid the incredibly high taxes and duties of Brazil. The market area goes from Chinese knock-off Rolex’s and other garbage to high end malls selling real Rolex’s and expensive perfumes. Everyone has cash in their pockets and every corner has men with shotguns and bullet-proof vests. The advice from Brazilian’s be very careful and don’t stray too far from the border.
Step 2, drive around to bike shops and try and drum some interest from potential buyers. We did this three different times, crossing the border and approaching people at bike shops. We had some interest but with our poor Spanish it was difficult to gauge how serious the buyers were.
Step 3, return on Saturday, two days later with Rodolfo and try some more. Rodolfo had made some contacts in the previous day with a man who had bought another bike with Rodolfo’s assistance a few months earlier. We went to see these gentleman at a restaurant with another man who represented himself as a middleman. We arrived at the restaurant to 3 big-ass Harley’s and a group of guys having lunch. We were a little nervous at this point but they seemed like all right guys and Rodolfo didn’t seem too worried. We met some of the guys who were here to see a CCR concert that had been in town the night before. We met a man named “Julio” who spoke English and apparently was the money behind the meeting. These guys knew everything there was to know about bikes and had no misconceptions on the worth. The one hitch, where’s the panniers? They weren’t interested in the bike without the shiny aluminium boxes that had stored our valuables for the last two and a half months. Apparently panniers are the key to a quick sale down in these parts because every biker we met from this area wanted them. We agreed on a price that worked for both of us and arranged to meet on Monday morning to complete the transaction.
See you Monday………..
We woke up early and refreshed after spending our previous day cleaning the bike and peeling stickers from the panniers. We were to be in Paraguay at 8:30 to meet up with Pablo (the middleman) at a gas station. Nervous we were, but after our meeting on Saturday I felt ok about the deal. Eventually Pablo arrived and we followed him to another gas station where we sat for a while and drank coffee, apparently waiting for Julio who was running a little late. Alas he showed and we proceeded in parade to a local Notary that Julio had clearly used multiple times. Everything was on the up and up and finally after a couple hours of paper work we were off to the bank to get the money. The bank was very high end, so there no doubts about the “quality” of the $100 bills, but walking around Ciudad del Este with a pocket full of $100’s was not ideal.With the paper work complete and money in hand it was time to drop the bike off in their little bike compound (this was the most nerve racking part, I had lots of cash in my pocket, I was in a strangers house in Paragauy, the paperwork declared the bike was now the property of Julio and I was handing the key over to Pablo :(
Everything went as advertised and we even ended up spending a few hours with Pablo. After leaving the bike in the compound he drove us to his business and introduced us to his wife and mother. Pablo owned a photocopy company that had a contract with local schools to photocopy their only “real book” so the kids had a photocopied version for the school year. Much different than Canada, it actually makes more sense. We even picked up his two kids from elementary school and went out for lunch at a local restaurant. It goes to show, these people may be much poorer than you or I and live in a much different society but they’re no different than us.
I’m glad Pablo (left) will be riding this bike with the financial help of Julio (middle), they were both real bikers that will show Maria the roads and TLC she deserves. (pipesandlilp.tumblr.com)
So long Maria, you were a faithful companion for us…..We’ll miss ya….
Thank you again Rodolfo and Alexandre......See you in a few more years
P.S. come to Canada to ride the Rockies...
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