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  #1  
Old 16 Aug 2009
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Rules...

My signature with the website of our place in Santa Catarina , Brazil was removed by the HUBB administrator as it is seen as advertising...If there is any HUBB-er who has paid for his stay or using my tools etc with us LET HIM SPEAK!
The fact the website is no longer in my signature does not mean you are no longer welcome to stay here. As many travellers who have passed by here already know and for those who do not, hereby again : For 4 years now overlanders (not backpackers!) have been welcome to stay here (for free G.J.!!).Also have a small workshop and gladly give some technical help if needed too (for free G.J.!).
Only during the summerperiod aprx december 15 - march 15 there will be no space as we are always full but outside of this period you are very welcome to stay.For free G.J.....
I tried to explain this to the administrator but was answered ´rules are rules´....Where have I heard that before!
As my signature is not there anylonger you just write me a PM to ask the directions.
Bem vindo e até !

Marcel

PS I wonder if this thread is going to be removed as well...

Last edited by marker; 16 Aug 2009 at 16:12.
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  #2  
Old 16 Aug 2009
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"Fair Exchange"

Marker, there is a "rule" a doctrine called "fair exchange" that has guided humanity since long before the first bed and breakfast owner or mechanic ever served a cup of coffee or lifted a spanner.

Fair exchange was born out of the philosophy that the basic definition of criminality is "to get something for nothing" and to give something for nothing is, by logic, creating a criminal.

Now, compassion, something given for free to someone truly in need, like a child, or a population destroyed by war, disease, acts of God, etc. or to a truly disabled person, unable to survive on his/her own, does not make a criminal of that person or those populations, unless the aid continues beyond the point when the person or population are able to survive on their own. This would be called sympathy. When compassion becomes sympathy it no longer helps anyone survive. Sympathy suppresses individuals and populations.

It was with humble appreciation that I have stopped using my "signature" (web site) in my posts here.

Why, because a decision was made that my exchanges to the HUBB were no longer "fair exchange" for the valuable promotion I was receiving. It is not only "rules are rules" it is also "bills are bills" and the costs of maintaining HU are not payable, even by the most valuable written contributions provided to adventure motorcyclists et al.

So, I understand and am happy that Grant and Susan have permitted me a start at an adventure motorcycle related business, and I will open discussions with them regarding what they would consider as fair exchange for the use of my "signature" (web site) in my posts.

I do not expect compassion nor sympathy from Grant or Susan, and my right to post here is given and can be taken away by Grant and Susan as I am a guest in their house. I hope I have not scratched their furniture.

Eat Drink and Be Careful

xfiltrate
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  #3  
Old 17 Aug 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marker View Post
My signature with the website of our place in Santa Catarina , Brazil was removed by the HUBB administrator as it is seen as advertising...If there is any HUBB-er who has paid for his stay or using my tools etc with us LET HIM SPEAK!
The fact the website is no longer in my signature does not mean you are no longer welcome to stay here. As many travellers who have passed by here already know and for those who do not, hereby again : For 4 years now overlanders (not backpackers!) have been welcome to stay here (for free G.J.!!).Also have a small workshop and gladly give some technical help if needed too (for free G.J.!).
Only during the summerperiod aprx december 15 - march 15 there will be no space as we are always full but outside of this period you are very welcome to stay.For free G.J.....
I tried to explain this to the administrator but was answered ´rules are rules´....Where have I heard that before!
As my signature is not there anylonger you just write me a PM to ask the directions.
Bem vindo e até !

Marcel

PS I wonder if this thread is going to be removed as well...
Why not post your location in the section made for it ???

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...south-america/

I'm sure you can post up your place there through word of mouth, no doubt your place will be on the map..

Also, you could post on Help Exchange: free volunteer work exchange abroad Australia New Zealand Canada Europe and get people to help you out at your place for a bed and a bowl of soup.

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  #4  
Old 17 Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by tedmagnum View Post
Why not post your location in the section made for it ???

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...south-america/

I'm sure you can post up your place there through word of mouth, no doubt your place will be on the map..

It is there since quite a while. and the mouth to mouth as well.That is all not the problem. It is the attitude of the administrator what strikes me.
I do not desperately nééd travellers to pass by here. It is just nice plus a retribution (via a detour...) to the many helpful and hospitable people who I have encountered during my 28 years of worldtravelling.
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  #5  
Old 17 Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by marker View Post
It is there since quite a while. and the mouth to mouth as well.That is all not the problem. It is the attitude of the administrator what strikes me.
I do not desperately nééd travellers to pass by here. It is just nice plus a retribution (via a detour...) to the many helpful and hospitable people who I have encountered during my 28 years of worldtravelling.
I understand how you feel..

This website, as great as it is , is a victim of it's own success ! It's all about money now which is understandable considering the running costs !
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  #6  
Old 17 Aug 2009
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Marker,

First, please note that it wasn't me that did anything. We have moderators - helping out for free, giving freely of their own time to help make this a better place for all. They know the basic rules, and follow them as best they can.

The basics, just so we're all clear:

We have NO problem with someone offering anything for FREE. We're very pleased when someone offers free accommodation or mechanical assistance or whatever for travellers - and we hope that the giver would also receive help when on the road if needed too. WE - that is you me and all motorcycle travellers - help each other out and WE make it a better world to travel in for us all.

When someone MAKES MONEY by posting on HU, we don't feel that it's fair if we don't receive a part of that.

TedMagnum is right - sort of tongue in cheek - to an extent it IS all about the money on this subject.

Where there is NO money involved, NO problem.
Where there IS money involved, it needs to be FAIR.

Just so everyone understands: HU has been MY FULL TIME job for 11 years now. Susan has been part time all of that time. We have a couple of part timers to pay. A website the size of HU is incredibly expensive to host.

It all adds up to a LOT of money invested. And we have YET to make a decent wage out of it. If I had NOT started HU back in 1998, I'd be comfortably retired now with the money I could have earned. Now, it's going to be many years before I can retire.

So when it comes down to it, WHY should we work for nothing? WHY should we allow someone else to MAKE MONEY off our work, and we should get nothing in return?

We continue to run it because we believe in what we're doing, and we have many thousands of people who would be very upset if we closed the site down. BUT - just like every single person out there - we like to eat, we'd really like to be able to afford a nice house, a vacation every year, and one day soon "retire" and work a little less hard - 10 hours a day 7 days a week gets to be too much sometimes. And our last vacation was 4 years ago.

We'd like to do it all for free - but the plumber that came today wants to get paid, so we can't work for nothing either.

So FAIR is important - not only to all the users of HU, but to us too.

Having said all that - if indeed you, Marker, make NO money from hosting travellers, then let me know that, and you're welcome to post your signature again.

If you do make money, please remember FAIR.
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  #7  
Old 17 Aug 2009
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As one who has no financial interest, or even a signature line, permit me the following observations:

First, Grant is right by definition. It's his website, his labor of love, his money at stake. He gets to make the rules in whatever form he thinks suitable, reaping the rewards (such as they are) and paying the consequences.

Second, we all benefit greatly by the resources made available to us here. Without investing greatly, we get to log on at will and extract value from the site. It is therefore in our best interests to behave in whatever way makes the continued functioning of this site possible.

Third, being a moderator is difficult and the rewards are scant. Although they may seem unredeemably arbitrary and cold-hearted at times, they're presumably doing their best in what are sometimes impossible situations. In this, I speak from experience gained elsewhere on the web.

Last, the manner of enforcing what was apparently a long-standing but dis-honored "rule" has led to no small amount of resentment, much of it off-list, and the absence of certain valued voices here. It seems to me that this might have been accomplished more diplomatically than it appears to have been.

In my mine, when the written rules say one thing but common practice is contradictory, the lack of enforcement is a form of communication which states very clearly "Pay no attention to those rules. We don't really mean it." A decision to revert to the written rules is therefore a change of the real rules, and should therefore be pursued gently. However, see my first point above: Grant gets to do as he pleases.

I don't know what kind of terms are being offered to those who want to insert commercial messages in their signature lines, but it does seem to me that there is no god-given right to tout businesses for free wherever you want all over the internet. Grant has offered to work with people who hope to gain financially by their postings here. He seems a man of his word, and I hope mutually beneficial relationships can be forged.

Grant, I do think that a less strident tone might better convey what I take to be your intent. In print you sound (to me) angry and blaming. This is not necessarily a bad thing if you are in fact intending to communicate anger and blame. However, it might not be the best way to maintain and enrich the Hubb.

Disclaimer: What the hell do I know, really? If my comments are useful to anyone reading here, I'm glad. If not, please discard them without a second glance.

Safe journeys all!

Mark
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  #8  
Old 17 Aug 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markharf View Post
As one who has no financial interest, or even a signature line, permit me the following observations:

Grant, I do think that a less strident tone might better convey what I take to be your intent. In print you sound (to me) angry and blaming. This is not necessarily a bad thing if you are in fact intending to communicate anger and blame. However, it might not be the best way to maintain and enrich the Hubb.

Disclaimer: What the hell do I know, really? If my comments are useful to anyone reading here, I'm glad. If not, please discard them without a second glance.

Safe journeys all!

Mark
Great commentary Mark, thanks.

My apologies if I seem strident and blaming - I'm not trying to, quite the contrary, I'm trying to appeal to everyones sense of fair play.

We are definitely not blaming anyone specifically - most of our users are wonderful people whom we count as friends. Those who take advantage of us just need to be shown the light And I'm sure when they understand the way it all works they'll understand - well some of them will anyway!

Strident - I will confess that I sometimes feel that way after a problem - hey, I'm human. I get tired and bitchy like everyone else.

What is missing / invisible to everyone here is the years of us TRYING to enforce the rules. I don't see all the posts - I don't come close to having the time to read them all - so I miss a lot - so therefore it SEEMS that the rules aren't enforced - but they are AS BEST WE CAN.

When I or a moderator sees a post or sig that doesn't comply, we talk to the poster. We try to work something out that will work to both our benefits. Sadly the most common reaction is basically they think they should be able to do it for free and go off in a huff when they can't. Just because they've broken the rules for who knows how long, doesn't mean they should be able to continue to. It sometimes seems like dealing with a kid - he's naughty again and again, then gets caught - and he's angry! Even though he knows he shouldn't have done it.

I have had a number of people comment that they're GLAD we are cracking down - they agree with us!

We have a couple of moderators now with more time and willingness to enforce the rules, so we're seen as being mean and nasty. Sorry, but we are only trying to survive, and give good returns to our advertisers, and first and foremost to the users. You'll notice we only accept mororcycle travel related ads - we could make a LOT of money if we just stuck google adwords in everywhere and had ads for everything under the sun. But it wouldn't be us, and it wouldn't be doing our readers a service. It would suck.

Could we do it better - of course - marketing and pr geniuses we ain't. If I come across as strident, sorry, it IS probably a certain amount of frustration! We DO try to be fair to all, and we hope that those who have been with us for a long time will agree.

So what do ALL OF YOU think we should do? Are we on the right track? Or not?
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  #9  
Old 17 Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by tedmagnum View Post
Why not post your location in the section made for it ???

http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hub...south-america/

I'm sure you can post up your place there through word of mouth, no doubt your place will be on the map..

Also, you could post on Help Exchange: free volunteer work exchange abroad Australia New Zealand Canada Europe and get people to help you out at your place for a bed and a bowl of soup.

Also of course the Community system is designed to make it easy for travellers to find people willing to help out and share!
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  #10  
Old 17 Aug 2009
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Originally Posted by xfiltrate View Post

It was with humble appreciation that I have stopped using my "signature" (web site) in my posts here.

Why, because a decision was made that my exchanges to the HUBB were no longer "fair exchange" for the valuable promotion I was receiving. It is not only "rules are rules" it is also "bills are bills" and the costs of maintaining HU are not payable, even by the most valuable written contributions provided to adventure motorcyclists et al.

So, I understand and am happy that Grant and Susan have permitted me a start at an adventure motorcycle related business, and I will open discussions with them regarding what they would consider as fair exchange for the use of my "signature" (web site) in my posts.

I do not expect compassion nor sympathy from Grant or Susan, and my right to post here is given and can be taken away by Grant and Susan as I am a guest in their house. I hope I have not scratched their furniture.

Eat Drink and Be Careful

xfiltrate
Thanks - great post.

Clarification for all: (NOT aimed at xfiltrate)

The problem here is deciding "who has contributed sufficiently to get a free ride" and who has not.

WHO would want to be the judge of that can of worms? Not me!

Back to the ORIGINAL idea of the HUBB, way back in 1998: SHARE information! You come to the site as a newbie knowing nothing, learn a whole lot from the many experienced folk here, go off and do your trip - or many trips! - and then come back - and pay it back by helping others. WE here at HU ENABLE this exchange of information. So some will post more than others - because they can, or they want to or they like to help - I get a real charge myself out of helping someone from scratch, and watch them do the whole circle - it's an amazing feeling to have helped make such a difference in so many people's lives.

So to be clear, all the exchange of info aside - if you're making money off your posts etc on the HUBB, we think a teeny tiny share is fair. Talk to us - everything is negotiable. If you're BMW, your rate is going to be higher than a guy making $2 widgets in his shed.

Those who do pay to advertise with us are generally VERY happy with their results for the money they spend - many increase their advertising, and come back year after year. THEY think our rates are reasonable and good value.
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  #11  
Old 18 Aug 2009
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Will Keep Trying...

Grant, my second attempt to send a double gold contribution via "pay pal" has also failed. This happened several months ago too...Could it be my credit card issued in the States is not honored because I am paying from (out of the country) - Argentina. Have you encountered this before?

I will try again tomorrow.

Meanwhile, thank you for your insight and count me among those who appreciate you, Susan, the mods, and all contributors to HU.

We of the HUBB, are tough band of irregulars, not aimed at you specifically, and aside from the friends we have made because of the HUBB, I also know, where ever we ride, the HUBB is watching our six and willing to help in time of need. This fact, when considered, might help to loosen purse strings.

Matter of fact, I would suggest that if HU has helped before, during or after your ride, that you drop a check in the mail or "pay pal" an exchange to Horizons Unlimited. This is a postulate: Within the next month there will be a 10X increase in contributions to Horizons Unlimited.

Let's all visualize money flowing to Grant and Susan, money laden ships sailing in to the safe HU harbor and unloading tens of thousands of dollars, euros and pounds, day after day, and night after night.... beginning now.

As for a marketing idea, why not raffle off a bike or accessories donated to you by manufacturers for promotional purposes?

Some of the more knowing tech people of the HUBB could suggest manufacturers to approach.

Raffle tickets could be $25.00 US, let's see, how many tickets X 25 = 10,000? only 400 tickets.... or only 200 tickets at $50.00 US a ticket. That is amazing if only 200 of us send in $50.00 each, that would be $10,000 dollars to maintain HU.

I see sails on the horizon.

Eat, Drink and Be Careful xfiltrate
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  #12  
Old 18 Aug 2009
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"Grant, my second attempt to send a double gold contribution via "pay pal" has also failed. This happened several months ago too...Could it be my credit card issued in the States is not honored because I am paying from (out of the country) - Argentina. Have you encountered this before?" - xfiltrate

xfiltrate - I've had this problem twice with pay pal - card not valid for this transaction. Card has been in use for 15 years, OK with another card.
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  #13  
Old 18 Aug 2009
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Thanks all!

Visualizing nothing but good things flowing..............

Re PayPal - sadly we have NO control over what THEY accept. We know nothing about any of it till the money shows up in our account. And you can never tell for sure what will and won't work, especially when you're other than USA. As noted, try another card. It's worth making sure your card is validated with them. That's a process of putting a small transaction through with them and they check it out etc. Once done you should have no problems.

Thanks for the support!

Membership benefits and info link is on the left menu...

Advertise info is on the left menu too...
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  #14  
Old 18 Aug 2009
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I think the problem is that the vast majority of people, unless they have experience of hosting such a large site have very little idea of the time and running costs involved.

I'm sure many people just invisage Grant riding sitting down for 30 mins a night with a single malt, checking his emails, writing a few lines and then on with counting his gold.

I know it's a full time job and it's a fine balancing act of not upsetting tens of thousands of "customers"... I think it's doing great.

I don't think anyone begrudges G&S from making a buck for their efforts. I certainly don't. My ass has been saved more than a few times by the Hubb community and the money I have saved in the past from the information and community on this forum goes into the thousands !!

That's why I happily contributed and support the site with attending meetings and buying the odd DVD now and then.

These sites don't run themselves and It wouldn't be HALF the site if it wasn't funded in someway !

I can see the confusion with some people. I use it frequently and I get confused with the different sections and "guidlines"

Anyway, long live the hubb !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #15  
Old 29 Aug 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant Johnson View Post
Marker,


Having said all that - if indeed you, Marker, make NO money from hosting travellers, then let me know that, and you're welcome to post your signature again.

If you do make money, please remember FAIR.
Hi Grant!

As said before we absolutely charge nothing to bike and caroverlanders, there is no HUBBER who has ever paid here! But you may leave the signature out, no problem,IMO the one who loses here is the traveller but I also do not want to raise the suspect I ám doing this to make money! The reason I posted this topic is that it stroke me that for some years I only try to share my bit of travel experience with other travelllers on the HUBB ánd offer shelter for free to bike and caroverlanders and than am asked to pay for the signature. OK, I understand the initial thought that it seemed like advertising for free and I agree that that would not be fair. But after I tried to explain the situation to the administrator in a few mails I always got a ´rules are rules´ like answer. I don´t know why but I always get the creeps when I hear someone say this..
I did not post this topic because I do have to have my signature back, it was more out of dissapointment by realizing that overlanders not only face bureaucracy at embassies and borders etc but even at ´our very own site ´ too.
Regards,

Marcel
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Motorcycle Express

MC Air Shipping, (uncrated) USA / Canada / Europe and other areas. Be sure to say "Horizons Unlimited" to get your $25 discount on Shipping!
Insurance - see: For foreigners traveling in US and Canada and for Americans and Canadians traveling in other countries, then mail it to MC Express and get your HU $15 discount!




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